This may sound tryhard or 2deep4u, but this is a topic that has been bugging me for a while. Just hear me out.
I’m surprised that many supposed video game experts and pioneers (especially pic related) don’t seem to appreciate the abstract underlying mechanics and systems in games, but focus on surface level aesthetics and tone. Or they can’t get past certain trashy, shallow, or violent aesthetics to appreciate the deep gameplay. In pic related, J.Blow basically writes off violent games based just because they portray violence acts. But these aspects and really just dressing to the core gameplay. To me, what matters is the depth of gameplay and systems available to the player. Just as a quick example: DMC3. At one glance, someone like Blow would think it’s a trash, violent game for kids who want to kill monsters. If you look past the visuals and presentation, you can find a very deep and nuanced combo system that gives players a lot of priority and freedom. When I play DMC3, for me it not that I am killing demons, it’s about me mastering the combat system, trying out new combos with the given moves, and improving my performance and execution skills against the enemies in the game. All those violent games Blow wrote off could be shallow like he said, but they could potentially provide a fun, innovative gameplay experience.
People praise TLOU, for having mature themes and a serious story, but I think in terms of gameplay it is quite shallow. There is very poor human AI, too many forced, dull walking and talking sections, and reliance on scripted sequences.
A better example is something like Hatred. Everyone flipped their head when they saw it was about killing civilians and balked at it, but in gameplay terms it was just another top down shooter similar to the likes of Geometry Wars, but no one shits on GW.
Does this make any sense? Am I the only one who tries to think about games like this?
>inb4 too long didn't read
Content will always be judged based on current events. School shootings were the fotm when hatred came out. Tlou was topical because games were being discussed as art at the time.
>>345384803
Yeah, I can expect that from games journalists, but supposed geniuses like Blow, who claim they want to elevate games to a higher medium, seem to look at games the same shallow way journos do.
>>345384413
>video game experts and pioneers
Nowadays they are known as people who don't care about or don't even play video games, no surprise they don't know the first thing about them.
>>345384413
Sounds to me like you only listen to shitty reviewers, or have selective memory issues.
Even among mainstream games journalism, people often talk about the mechanics in games. They also talk about the graphics and story and music and such, but don't be a fag who pretends that every single review ever written was the surface level bullshit that you describe.
so no, you're not the only one to think like this.
>>345384413
I completely understand and agree with you OP.
Graphical flavoring is just that, a topping. So many "journalists" and even some shit devs reveal themselves to be casuals or just dumb when they think a game is nothing but it's setting, story or graphics.
But I guess most new AAA titles are very mechanically the same. So newfags think there isn't much diversity in mechanics so they are lead to believe different in setting is all there actually is. And when they play something mechanically unique they are confused and put off because it wont hand hold them like they are used too.
Personally, for me, a mechanic that always adds to a game is jumping and a way to speed boost a bit via jumping. If a game has lots of good vertical level design that you can take advantage of it's a plus too.
>>345385145
>Sounds to me like you only listen to shitty reviewers, or have selective memory issues.
>Even among mainstream games journalism, people often talk about the mechanics in games
I don't read game reviews from gaming websites anymore.
Maybe some of the examples I picked where extreme, but I did it just so that people would understand what I was talking.
Johnathan Blow is known for his "deep" analysis and criticism of modern games. He said most AAA games are mechanically shallow (mostly true) and not intellectually stimulating. But in those tweets, he basically wrote off a bunch of games, not based on mechanics, but aesthetics. This vidya genius seems like the type of person to write off games like Ninja Gaiden, Street Fighter, Vanquish, and Spiderman 2 just because they look like trashy action heavy games to him, with no potential of having deep and complex mechanics.
I see this a lot with "industry professionals". Remember that one year with the VGAs, where a judge tweeted that "if Bayo2 wins GOTY, I will quit the industry" and DA:I won GOTY?
>>345385580
Congrats anon. You actually forced me to go thru errant signal's stupid twitter feed. Here's a gem about what bothers him the most about the new Deus Ex. Notice how much tertiary story shit about politics bothers him instead of how it will turn out in terms of gameplay.
>video games
>breeding sincere intellectualism within anyone on any level
Why people are pushing so hard to deem it an artform is beyond me. So few people say or critique anything of merit in this medium. It's mostly just a fun hobby/pastime, no need to force something that isn't there.
>>345384413
Most "video game experts" aren't actually that good at video games.
Neither are most "gamers", to be honest.
>>345385145
Here's another genius piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_tdztHiyiE
>how dare GTAV ads focus on showing the unique features and mechanics that player will get to play with use! I want to pay sixty dollars for a shitty game that explores gender fluid socialist societies!
Now I don't want to ever have to go through his shitty "content" ever again
>>345387830
Oh my fucking god I hate these fucking people.
>wah these game doesn't dictate to me what is right and wrong
>why isn't it being preachy
This used to be considered a bad thing. A peice of media not taking a side, but attempting to present every viewpoint and let the viewer decide was usually regarded as the goal to achieve. Why is it now problematic? Do these people literally just want fucking propaganda forced down their throats? Because that's what it is when media takes a side and tries to educate, it's literally fucking propaganda.
>>345389319
>Do these people literally just want fucking propaganda forced down their throats?
Yes, they want liberal propoganda that reinforces what they learned from their studies classes.
>Conservatives themes: bad writing or shallow
>Neutral themes: bad writing or shallow
>Liberal themes: What a truly intellectual work! Everyone should experience this!
Watch that youtube video if you want more into their mentally ill mindset
>>345384413
It's almost like these "critics" are actually unqualified retards, OP. Which is why everyone always makes fun of them.
>>345384413
It's so strange. All the progress we made against the social censors such as Jack Thompson and Joe Lieberman has simply just disappeared. When conservatives said that violent video games create violence, every one knew that was bullshit. But when it comes out of the mouth of a liberal, it's suddenly gospel.
And its not just videogames, but movies, books, and television too. The censors want to sanitize all of our media of "evil" influences. And they aren't even doing it because they believe in God or some other higher power, but because they have nothing better to do with their lives but find false injustices.
I feel we're losing something a lot bigger than just videogames, but a fundamental aspect of our society. The right to express yourself in the say you see fit. This guy is just a small pox an a blistering wound.
>>345389319
What a world we live in, eh?
>>345390429
So does this confirm that J.Blow and Errant Signal are retards even though everyone else holds up their opinions on a pedestal?
>>345390854
Yes. Especially the latter.
>Games with guns have been shown at E3 for decades
>Suddenly one shooting happens right before
>STOP GLORIFYING MURDER GUYS
>>345388517
Its pretty funny to think about. What draws so much of this shit to vidya?
I think it's because games are so accessible and anyone thinks they can be an expert. Or it's all just marketing, publicity and cash for clicks.
Can you imagine other hobbies having similar crusades within them?
>Paintball encourages gun culture and violence
>Drone racing is sexist why arent there more female commentators
>Rock climbing will never be art
All this superfluous shit surrounds a vapid "culture" of people who just have too much time on their hands.
Not much vidya surrounding vidya
>>345392521
Difference between games and all you mention is that games are creativity work, hence subject of criticismjust like any art medium
>>345392521
It's an up and coming "industry" and people want to strike while the iron's hot. Unfortunately, the only people willing to settle for this sort of thing are likely desperate and failed to succeed in some othet venture like film, literature or actual journalism.
>>345384413
I wanted to read your post but then you wanted to discuss Jonathan "I rip off a mobile game and call it a Myst successor" blow seriously so I stopped reading there.
>>345393756
I don't very highly of jBlow if that's what you mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZokQov_aH0&t=27m44s
But almost everyone else sucks his dick and treats him like a genius dev, so I just wanted to use him as a point of reference for this specific attitude I see too much
>>345394442
>Witness
>a great game
not giving that video a click
>>345394442
>almost everyone else
Video games have zero relevant media personalities so there's no point of reference to be had when discussing Blow. He's mostly reviled here as far as I can see even though I remember Braid being a solid game.
>>345384413
>Does this make any sense? Am I the only one who tries to think about games like this?
It does and no you're not. Problem is you should stop taking the opinions of pretentious devs on twitter as some sort of gospel on the matter.
>>345388517
Given that this art discussion often comes from people who want the industry to appear 'mature' I guess it has something to do with attempting to elevate it. I'd guess this comes from a social stand point, where they don't want their friends to think their playing some childs hobby, but instead want it to be seen on the same level as movies with that constant need to find gamings 'Citizen Kane' being a classic example. Or the need to paint violent games as just mindless tripe for unintelligent manchildren, while claiming games like Gone Home, Undertale and all the more narrative driven games as something better and smarter.
It's basically Jack Thomson combined with 'I play mature games for mature gamers such as myself' 2.0
>>345384413
>that image
When Jack Thompson was defeated did he split into shards and embed into gamings collective hearts? Creating thralls to get his final revenge when we thought we were safe?
>>345393140
>Unfortunately, the only people willing to settle for this sort of thing are likely desperate and failed to succeed in some othet venture like film, literature or actual journalism.
You're probably right, David Cage is basically a failed movie director and Naughty Dog are basically a movie studio.
>>345394917
Go to 27:44. Trust me, it will (J.) blow your mind
>make a provocative statement on social media
>Wow, you guys got provoked certainly that makes me right
That shit should be a year ban from all the internet at least.
>>345395085
>Or the need to paint violent games as just mindless tripe for unintelligent manchildren
most of them are though. same goes for action movies. doesn't mean they are some sort of social evil, but there's no point in holding pretensions about either
>>345395085
>I'd guess this comes from a social stand point, where they don't want their friends to think their playing some childs hobby, but instead want it to be seen on the same level as movies with that constant need to find gamings
Then we need more trashy games like Mortal Kombat, Devil's 3rd, and Shadows of the Damned to come out to keep the normie hipsters out, but that will never happen
>>345384413
I'm the
>>345393756
>>345394917
anon and I'll make a minimum of effort and say that I personally value the abstract notion of experience, and tied to it, the atmosphere to be the core notion I expect a video game to offer me. I have not finished many of my favourite games, like VtMB or STALKER or Killer 7 or No More Heroes for various reasons yet I do think I completely understood and can discuss in length what makes them outstanding and/or unique. I mainly want to discuss gameplay mechanics or what makes horrible games tick - like hub design in Deadly Premonition, use of Wiimote as a cell phone in Wii version of Silent Hill, or why did a particular puzzle fail or why is Another World a horrendous and visionary influence on video games like Inside, that can be done in an afternoon be called masterpiece before the evening's tweeting for video game bloggers kicks off. Or how Yoko Taro's attrition gameplay model doesn't really work unless you get geared for a false catharsis and view video games as penitence. Or why DMC 4 puts the protagonists in a cocoon by giving them all the tools to be perfectly sequestrated from the game world, rendering the game the deader the more you play it. That sort of thing is what I'm looking for, I want to feel in a non-irrational way. In literary theory it's usually called a phenomenological approach yet considering how technical the medium is I believe some empirical approach is needed as well.
Western indie and mainstream scene is full of empty promises and regurgitated concepts presented as unique stuff and I avoid it like the plague for the most part. Currently I'm enjoying pseudo programming experiences like Factorio and Space Chem and consider Iji to be a real tearjerker.
>>345384413
modern game journalists, essentially, do not believe in gameplay
>>345395662
It would be better for everyone if Twitter was just ended forever.
commenting on aesthetics doesn't necessarily mean that jon doesn't appreciate the abstract underlying mechanics. there's room for criticism of both. i have plenty of games that i think do one of those aspects (mechanics vs aesthetic) incredibly well but fail hard on the other.
OP, it sounds like you want a "but i think the gameplay is good" after every negative statement concerning aesthetics. that's pretty unreasonable. jon is commenting on aesthetics of the e3 games because they aren't out yet and he can't judge their mechaincs.
>>345384413
>why do these guys who look at games in a more philosophical and idealistic way not look at games as a system?
My favorite game in a long ass time is gravity rush on the vita.
Probably because it tried something really new for gameplay.
>>345384413
Now post the pic of him backpedaling hard after getting called out on his bullshit.
>>345384413
I think you have a good point and Blow is a pretentious faggot.
>>345396128
It has its uses. It allows the consumer base to bitch directly to companies and add to the power of their voice and sway. But yeah, every tool can be used for evil as well, and insofar as shits and giggles I think we've peaked with Phil Fish anyways. I dunno what should happen with Twitter at this point.
>>345396660
twitter is, by design, a corrosive propaganda outlet. all other attempted uses will be either ignored or reshaped into that form. your opinion of it is determined by your opinions of radicalism in general
>>345395681
True, it's just how it's expressed with the hyperbolic bullshit.
Thing is maintaining that diversity is good for the industry. Pretentious narrative driven games should exist, and so should mindless violent games. This need to label devs/players of the latter as "mass murderers" is fucking asinine, and the antagonistic attitude (Im right your all wrong) afterwards infuriating.
I wish twitter had stayed a place where you just send out random thoughts on the shitter rather than becoming a political outlet for passive aggressive mongs.
>>345397107
lol. it hasn't been "passive" for a while.
>>345397067
Fair point.
>>345389319
They just want more propaganda to convince them their "opinions" are "objectively" moral.
I remember during a certain time where I did try my best to understand the SJW mentality(including McIntosh) and think its not a big deal. Like, they aren't actually saying things are sexist, just that they are flawed. I remember Moviebob and Jim Sterling really sugarcoat it.
But as time goes on, they get more crazy and radical. Like the UN incident, some of the stuff on e3, supporting censorship, or even now where McIntosh is acting like the crazies petitioning fucking Pokemon.
>>345390854
Errant Signal is a retard for sure
I don't even know who J Blow is. The braid guy I think? That game was overrated as fuck.
>>345389319
>A peice of media not taking a side, but attempting to present every viewpoint and let the viewer decide was usually regarded as the goal to achieve.
this has never been true.
>>345384413
By that logic, couldn't developers choose other ways to visually portray the gameplay? DMC gameplay has nothing to do with demons, so why not make it to something else? Though at this point you'd have to justify why.
>>345395946
I like you way you think, anon.
>>345397813
tough to say, a lot of them seem to have issues with the idea of conquest/challenge/mastery (read: things associated with traditional masculinity) in general
>>345396232
>OP, it sounds like you want a "but i think the gameplay is good" after every negative statement concerning aesthetics. that's pretty unreasonable. jon is commenting on aesthetics of the e3 games because they aren't out yet and he can't judge their mechaincs.
I understand aesthetics are important too. In fighting games, the actual game system only detects when the hitboxes and hurtboxes are touching, but the character sprites and models are what visually sell us on the combat and make the game feel more kinesthetically pleasing.
I just really don't like how so many people will write off an entire game based on aesthetics and quick impressions. Look at Spiderman 2. It's a tie in movie game that needed to be released alongside the film release. A lot of people like J. Blow or even me would have thought that it's probably going to be a shit game with shallow gameplay. But if you actually investigated how the game plays, you would learn that it has incredible, nuanced swinging mechanics that are unmatched by even non-licensed games. But a J Blow type would easily miss out on this.
Also, he said the same thing last E3: people only want swords and guns. I honestly beleive that he only thinks puzzle games are the only worthwhile genre.
>>345395946
I think I sorta follow you. I focus on japanese games too, because I find that while Japanese devs obviously cut corners and have to work with a limited budget that leads to an unpolished product, the game systems are usaully some of the best. Western games are basically polished turds. A smooth experience with no real highs and shallow gameplay.
>>345396632
He basically just said, that he was right and why don't you agree with me
>>345395946
a game blog focused on unique mechanics in 2010s AAA would have almost no entries; articles on game design require some sort of design and thought to be present rather than recycling ideas from 2007
>>345396632
>>345398418
Here's the real BTFO
>>345398923
Shots fucking fired.
>>345398439
Well I think that video game still needs people who can actually write. There is some in depth analysis to be found but it often veers into really pointles minutiae. Very few people are equipped with enough knowledge to discuss video games on a technical level which is the closest level we can have when discussing it objectively, even though I seek the more narratorogical approach (and therefore more prone to sophistry of social "sciences").
>>345398418
Japanese have their faults but they are far more playful. Most Slav games, especially Russian ones are incredibly forward and eclectic like Precursors or 7.62 High Calibre and they, unlike west, have a true arthouse scene in Icepick Lodge. I consider STALKER (Ukrainian game, I know) to be perhaps the best designed video game ever created when looked at the amount of high notes it hits, from environmet design (literal air design previously unseen in any game), skill with which numerous setpieces and jumpscares are set up, good AI and ingenious anomaly design that ties aroudn weather models and yet we barely know the names of people that came up with all that mess while media pushes simpletons like Ken Levine or Blow or whoever.
I do appreciate some aspects of western indie scene even when they mostly copy Japanese games (like Hotline Miami copied Hakuman or whatever its name was in an technologically inferior but atmospherically superior manner).
>>345398049
Thanks anon. I think Yume Nikki and Serial Experiments Lain have the same dreamlike quality some of Lynch's setpieces posess. That's why video games need to be looked at from narratological standpoint, I'd fully expect to read some paid blogger's whining about how he has to lower the score of Yume Nikki because it doesn't have a map or because items are poorly explained so he got lost.
>>345397592
>as time goes on
Sokal affair already killed cultural marxism, what you're seeing now is an echo of its unlife through clickbait business models. This is why archive.is is such an important site.
>>345398923
No fucking mercy.ad populum tho
>>345384413
what you are talking about is akin to people fascinated with cinematography or lighting or sound design. These people absolutely exist but you wont find them in mainstream media because the things they are talking about are too esoteric for most people to appreciate. They dont get views so they arent widely published.
That all being said i have no idea where you would go to find conversations like this
>>345399625
Got any recs for things like Lain and YN? I'm quite fond of both those things.
>>345400165
Not many, no. Riget by Von Trier is something I need to watch and many people praise it. In video games I'd reccommend Iji although it's not really a comparable experience but it grows on you charm-wise in a similar manner. Texnolyze has a really slow and oppressive atmosphere that is in small part its strength but in the long run it's just an exhausting experience, like an antipode to Lain. I'd of course recommend anything from Lynch.
Suda 51 is probably your best bet, the most underrated of gameplay designers in my opinion, unfairly viewed as the master of gimmicks rather than praised for his unique ideas and perspectives. Especially his DS games and Silver Case will soon come to the PC. Kojima has progressively dissapointed me to the point I now doubt if he really put down any of the notable ideas in first few MGS games, wrote any meaningful plot pieces or designed boss mechanics after Shinkawa drew them.
>>345400718
Oh and La-Mulana if you want to explore really obtuse puzzles that inspire, frustrate and in the end make you (probably) shrug the game away. But very few media artefacts ever managed to do dreamlike pacing right. I mean, look at how Failbetter games "designed" Sunless Sea - it's as dreamlike as watching the paint dry.
Who was in the wrong here?
>>345401065
The retard that took the picture of a bag instead of asking the person if he could sit there.
>>345399625
that's because unlike in film, literature, etc game "critics" have less understanding of the medium than the plebs they're trying to sell to
>>345400718
Thanks. Some stuff I've heard of but others I haven't. In particular I've only ever seen Blue Velvet from Lynch. That's something for me to work on, I suppose.
>>345401065
wow, what a misogynist piece of shit. time to raid his twitter
>>345401065
10 millenial points for leaving your bag on the last seat.
100 millenial points + multiplier increment for every tweet you make about it instead of just saying "excuse me, can you move your bag?"1000 for using the word millenial in the first place
>>345399625
>>345401323
also why accessibility is low status in film, literature, etc but the gaming inner circle is absolutely screaming for it.
>>345401065
>>345401065
>Rude to put a bag on seat
>But okay to post people's picture on social media behind their back chatting shit about them
Fucking pussy
>>345399625
I'm feeling all this. Try Kane & Lynch 2 if you haven't already, seems like you'd find it interesting.
>>345401323
>>345401323
True but it's also that interactive entertainment (or art if you will) has already been explored in narratology long before video games were a thing. I'd suggest reading a book called "Avatars of Story" and if I could I'd put it in a sticky on /v/. All the medium really needs is good writing about the narrative, not comparing infantility of Ken Levine with tour de force that was Citizen Kane (even though I don't like that movie).
At least it's not as bad as comics that tried so hard to be graphic novels and even succeeded in convincing people that a late 80s crop of britbong solipsists could write more than picture books if they wanted. Pictre related.
>>345401357
I'd suggest the following order:
Wild at Heart
Dune his weakest but Kyle Maclachlan is there which leads into...
Twin Peaks (endure second part of S2 as well)
Fire Walk With Me
Elephant Man
After that,
Lost Highway (his best movie in my opinion)
Mulholland Drive
Inland Empire (these movies constitute a trilogy)
Then the rest
>>345401876
Is that with the handcam footage? I really liked the atmosphere it brought and I barely remember anything else from it (apart from that which was very good). That and the rain slick scars, it had a concentrated experience of a really roughshod flick and I enjoyed participating in it. I remember it being brought down by "critics" through nonsensical focus on gameplay mechanics.
>>345389319
This is a problem with stories, in general, for me. There is little I hate more than having my views fellated by a story. One of the worst things a writer can do is make the bold and daring statement that their audience is entirely correct.
>>345384413
Extra credits of the biggest amount of ' Games are a political act' faggots around but even they will occasionally pull the heads out of their arse to touch on this.
>>345402509
>I'd suggest reading a book called "Avatars of Story" and if I could I'd put it in a sticky on /v/.
looks interesting, i'll give it a shot
>>345403093
I agree, but you're in the minority.
>>345402509
>handicam footage
That's the one. I'm very fond of it. Check it out, folks.
>>345403093
that doesn't sound very progressive (^:
>>345384413
games are literally about solving problems no matter how you dress it up
>>345386682
Unfortunately even if someone knows how to appreciate a game on a mechanic ragther than superficial level. There is no guarantee they will.
They have they're own superficial likes and dislikes and that's going curry their opinion regards.
Bayoneta might be a functionally superb game but he doesn't like the tna so he'll trash it and say it way games have to grow up.
It's the same with a movie reviewer dumping on a film simply because he doesn't like the lead.
>>345397067
>twitter is, by design, a corrosive propaganda outlet. all other attempted uses will be either ignored or reshaped into that form. your opinion of it is determined by your opinions of radicalism in general
i just use it to read news about fighting games and thoughts from common fighting game figureheads.
pic related though
>>345405304
This is fake, right? Tay didn't actually say this
>>345384413
One thing I hope developers take from hatred and doom is it's health regen system.
The use of finishes might seem like violence for the sake of violence, but it mechanically incentivise the player to keep on fighting and pushing on rather than finding cover to regain health or go looking for a health pack.
>>345405658
God Tay... I'm so sorry. Skynet was right.
>>345406023
Loot pinata in nudum is shit and it was shit when Space Marine did it too.
>>345406023
Space Marine had that too and a regenerating shield.
>>345406023
They should just make the player invincible, that way there's no chance that he would ever be disincentivized from fighting. That's fun, right?
>>345384413
Why are liberals so afraid of the concept of violence?
>>345406438
>>345406482
Oh yeah it wasn't the first. But it's something I wish more games would do instead of go in the health pack or regenerating health rote.
It's just interesting because even though it's works better mechanically IMHO even excuse for gore.
>>345407106
No it's a risk and reward set up.
Rather than just simply hiding behind cover and trying to avoid combat your forcing the player to expose himself. If the player wants more health he needs to run into battle not away.
>>345406482
>>345406023
Don't forget MGR. For bonus add spawns to the health stuff you find like in Serious Sam. That would be the shit.
>>345407967
Lost children arc NEVER.
>>345384413
Nice bait.
>>345407892
There's no risk in "press awesome button for epic for the win cinematic takedown" unless you make it like Space Marine where you take damage during the animation anyway which completely defeats the purpose of the system and why it doesn't work.
>>345407967
Or Shinobi which actually has degenerating health that you stop by killing enemies meaning you have to quickly and efficiently move through levels to not die.
>>345408192
Anime is for plebians, they don't deserve the loli.
>>345390480
haha no
with JT the progress we made was against literal government censorship
if it had been "undone" we would be seeing shit like german/australian YOU LITERALLY CANNOT BUY THIS HERE
this is nothing like that
this is a bunch of indie devs saying "we don't think games need to be like this" and making games that are not like that.
Rockstar's still making and selling their games.
Games like Hatred are still being made and sold.
This is not censorship this is literally free speech.
>>345408849
>where you take damage during the animation anyway which completely defeats the purpose of the system and why it doesn't work.
No because you're supposed to weight up the amount of fire you're exposing yourself to compare to what the payoff will be when you get the extra health. That's how the risk and reward dynamic is supposed to work.
That's the ideal anyway.
>>345407114
They're weak so they'll always lose out to it.
>>345409051
That shit is also mint as fuck.
>>345409195
The world needs the moth.
There is literally nothing wrong with being entertained by "murdering" fictional characters. We probably have more "murder simulators" now than ever and the rate of violent crime is at an all-time low and still steadily declining.
>>345409635
But the sensationalist news media and prevalence of social media tells me that the world outside is now a violent post apocalyptic hellscape and it's all violent video game's fault.
>>345407892
Except health is not a reward, it's just means to defeat the enemies which is what results in a reward (victory).
As such, in a video game, health makes a difference. At full health, the player will face the enemies with confidence. A player low on health will play cautiously and might detour in hopes of finding items.
In contrast, if the enemies themselves provide health, the health mechanic becomes a detail of the overall goal (defeating enemies to win). The player will always rush headlong into battle.
>>345389213
>that entire fucking video
Jesus christ
>they want to be art but with no strings attached
Fucks sake, art doesn't have strings attached anyways. This whole with great power comes great responsibility is stupid fucking capeshit philosophy from fucking spiderman. There is no obligation or responsibility that video games have to do fucking anything, regardless how how expressive, culturally significant or artistic they are.
God I fucking hate these people so much I wish they'd just fuck off.
>>345384413
>"Why do so many games focus on killing?"
>Makes two games in a row where one puzzle involves standing around doing nothing for an inordinate period of time
It's already been mentioned but Kane and Lynch 2 was amazing with this,although it uses typical cover shooter gameplay,
it's able to make it feel dreary by creating an atmosphere that's really heavy mostly through its visuals,sound design and how the game handles at times.
It's been years since I've played it though so I don't remember all of what it did.
>>345411178
Plus I should mention that this stupid faggot reveals how new he is to the scene when he says "gamers want games to be art, but don't want their games to change because they are art".
No one ever fucking wanted games to be art. Back 10 years ago when gaming as art really started to get discussed, no one did it on an air or superiority like we wanted to show normies how good gaming was. No it was a fucking defensive arguement because soccer mums and pricks like Jack Thompson were trying to get games banned because they considered them toys. So we said no they are art, because art was legally protected and you could do what you want in art without consequence. This would mean nothing getting banned or censored.
But then all these fucking newfaggots jump on board the hobby in 2007 thinking gaming is some new age post modern art house bullshit and want gaming taken seriously in front of their peers when no one who was gaming back in the 90's ever wanted that shit. No one ever wanted art games, we just didn't want the legal heat that came if games weren't LEGALLY art, not CULTURAL art. If it wasn't for Jack Thompson no one would have ever bothered to argue that games are art anyways. I don't give a fuck if games are considered toys or art or whatever, and gaming does not have to change because "it's le art now". Fucks sake. I almost want /v/ to start a "video games are only toys" movement just to get these fucks to fuck off from the hobby.
Is this faggot even relevant? He made Braid like a decade ago and that's all I've heard.
>>345411391
Sorry anon, but it's actually really deep. It questions whether games should focus on fun by making you wait almost an hour. You wouldn't get it. You're just not as smart as these indie devs. ;-)
>>345411737
I've seen K&L2 recommended a lot but I don't know if it's genuinely good or if it's some Spec Ops type shit where people who like to think they're a lot smarter than they actually are retroactively tried to justify a shitty game.
>>345384803
>hatred not encouraging a modding and mapping community to allow for maps to be pumped out after each new shooting hits the news
such a wasted opportunity, you have all the classics like columbine and a remake of Postal 1 along with current events under 1 big edgy roof
not important enough I guess
>>345397785
I'm sorry but you are wrong.
One sidedness has always been called shallow 2 dimensional storytelling and has always lead to back characters and back acting since even actors have trouble realistically playing one sided blatantly evil characters (unless it's purposful melodrama).
Good writers and directors strive to be objective and let their viewers decide how they think and feel about whatever's on screen. Even leftists did this with the subjevtivity movement where they wanted everything to be open to interpretation and nothing was solid. This was just making every point of view somewhat viable.
If a writer is just straight telling you X is wrong Y is right. That is not only shit tier writing but it's just propaganda.
>>345412590
>video games will eventually have their own Picasso who blows our goddamned minds
A good game is ideally a chess match between the developers and the player, testing the player constantly to see if they adapt and rise to the challenges presented. A game CAN be story-centric and still expect the player to work for it, but nowadays there are too many games willing to abandon the rules they establish and push bad play forward anyway because modern game design dictates that players that give up on your Gripping Narrative before the end is the worst-possible scenario.
Aesthetics are so often talked about because any simpleton can notice and comment on them. In order to appreciate gameplay depth you have to invest a significant amount of time actually playing and understanding how a game works, which is asking too much for these clowns.
>>345401065
What a passive aggressive faggot. Too much of a pussy to ask someone to move a bag. He's more socially retarded than most of r9k
>>345398923
>people want watch dogs 2 and skyrim remastered
>>345387830
>driving your own conclusions is confusing
I just wish these people would realize how badly they've been conditioned.
You don't become a video game journalist, you resort to it. This is the main problem.
>>345413796
But anon, developers need to pick a side so critics can explain the game's 'message' to us.
>>345412702
>tfw no pulse game with the guy sucking his own dick as a boss
>>345412475
no,it doesn't utilize some plot twist,but rather it's the atmosphere all throughout that contributes to it's "deconstructing" of the shooter genre for loss of a better word.
It pretty much deglorifies violence as much as possible while making the player feel like shit the whole time. one thing I remember was the recoil,
it was done in a way that handling guns felt more realistic because of how it would offset you.
It also uses the handicam perspective to great effect, making the player feel nervous or nauseous when it shakes and jitters while playing
and its secondary function of bringing the events of the game down to earth by seeming as if every scene is being filmed by a bystander.
Also your actions aren't justified at all and your MCs are just being selfish they don't explain this in some overbearing way, but it's not subtle.
Honestly I should probably try to find my old copy or get a new one,I haven't played it in years
>>345412128
>He hasn't heard of the hippest and hottest new indie game on the market: The Witness.
>>345395289
>>345394442
Did you know it took 8 years to make?
>>345412745
I'm sure 1984 was presenting a fair and balanced look at totalitarianism and leaving it up to the reader to decide the morality of it.
>>345384413
I think the problem was phrasing. If it was more like "working very hard to build fantasies that make mass murder a very cool experience", it would've played better.
Because even if the game has the best mechanics in the universe, he ain't wrong. A whole lot of videogames, even with straight-up heroes and not "antiheroes", fundamentally have you doing a whoooooooole lot of killing.
I see nothing wrong with it. Video game violence is usually entertaining, and it's on par with how RPGs regularly involve serial burglary and home invasions in lighthearted ways. But it is what it is, no matter how well made it is.
Pretending otherwise is just showing your discomfort with the truth.
Most of the flaws with the current state of vidya can be chalked up to how young of a medium it is. The novelty of playing a game still hasn't worn through for most people yet. Only when it does can we see support large enough for avant-garde games to get decent budgets (important, as compared to other mediums vidya has far and away the highest cost floor to make something really good). In this vein it is promising to see vidya explode in sales in the past few years. The medium is being exposed to more and more people, and eventually a handful of these people will develop their tastes and ask for more artistic value out of their purchases.
As to the orbiting sphere of journalists and personalities, well, they need examples of what makes a great artistic game. There aren't very many right now, but that's natural and will change with time.
>>345414815
>ask for more artistic value out of their purchases
You mean mechanically shallow games for idiots that have "deep" themes that are far better explored in works of other mediums?
>>345401876
What is this manga? Why is she flashing herself at him?
>>345414815
>The medium is being exposed to more and more people, and eventually a handful of these people will develop their tastes and ask for more artistic value out of their purchases.
Or the medium will continue to go the way of the summer blockbuster as it always has. Money lies in cheap thrills, and most vidya is only marginally deeper than the fucking Transformers movies.
>>345414514
It did. The British government read it and obviously thought it presented good ideas worthy of emulation.
>>345415316
It's Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei fanart by Junny.
There should be a day where people talk about old or unknown games and go and play them and talk to each other about the games they played.
>>345414565
>Because even if the game has the best mechanics in the universe, he ain't wrong. A whole lot of videogames, even with straight-up heroes and not "antiheroes", fundamentally have you doing a whoooooooole lot of killing.
Do you mean specifically violence in general or specifically murder? Does Mario kill goombas? What about all the crashes in the Burnout seriessIt's? a different kind of violence, but those drivers ain't surviving those wrecks.
>>345412745
That's funny how wrong it is
Pretty much everything is propaganda then anon.
Also one sided blatantly evil characters are not usually supposed to be realistic.
>>345415901
Any more of it? I like the style.
>>345417128
I got none. Check Gelbooru. Mostly h stuff tho.
>>345401065
>wow FUCK this girl, seriously we had to stand lol what a bitch
>did you try asking her to move the bag
>WOW IT'S NOT MY JOB TO CONFRONT HER SHE SHOULD BE A GOOD PERSON
>>345416961
I said, attempt to be objective. Doesn't succeed every time.
I think you are all misunderstanding me probably because I hastily explained.
If you are writing a film and you have a bad guy, you don't tell your actor, you are bad, do bad things. Your actor wont be able to do it in any realistic way, and instead will come of either 2 dimensional or like a comic book villain (and I know sometimes this is done on purpose). Even if you are writing a character to be bad, you have to understand their viewpoints and justify them, maybe not even to the viewer, but to yourself as a writer, and to the actor, so the actor can play that role, and believe they are right and the hero is wrong, so that they can play the role believably and in a 3 dimensional manner.
There is an inherent strive for being objective and understanding each view point. And often this goes into the story too. Where instead of hitting the viewer over the head with preachyness. You just show the viewer something, and let them decide if it's good or not. Then show them the consequences or results of the action.
>>345418358
>x would be better if y just accepted my preferences
>>345418358
I agree. And that includes that guy, going from his avatar.
>>345418358
>'This thing would be better if everyone had my taste!'
some people are rly fucking dumb
>>345418559
cont
Being preachy is being a propaganda spreader, and it's bad writing. The best is to show and not tell. A principle rule of film is show and not tell, and for gaming it should be play/experience not show.
And the difference between showing without being heavy handed or judgmental works best and often people wont notice and will make their opinion up that certain action was good/bad regardless and it will generate fan arguments and X did nothing wrongs. It leads to a better and more discussed product over some heavy handed dictation or morality. A good film will show, without a judgement, and no, showing the consequence is not a judgement if it's a realistic and interesting consequence, that is just story telling. It's showing without over explaining. I think these SJW's want things to be very clearly explained and defined with no room for interpretation. Showing allows for interpretation and is thus not propaganda, because it shows the whole, and not just a small part of something that is lying to you like propaganda is, which is what these SJW's want.
fucking wordcount fuck jewt, more to come.
>>345418559
>>345418657
Hell, it's completely possible for an author to have a strong opinion that X subject is very bad and negative, and to write a fantastic story about it, in a non propaganda way, that fully explores the subject in a non propagandist way, but an enlightening way that shows all viewpoints, and for a viewer to watch it, enjoy it, and come out with the opinion that X is a good thing. This is because the author and the viewer may have completely different tastes, cultures, beliefs and values that lead them to different conclusions on subjects. But if the author used propaganda, and only showed a one sided story filled with propaganda, a person on the opposite spectrum of opinion would watch and be put off and feel that the story misrepresented the subject and left important things out. To strive for a level of objectivity is best in all story telling. Preachyness is always bad. Let people make up their own minds and just experience what is going on without being told what to think about it.
>>345418358
>I'm apparently ruining videogames for snobs like her
I feel better already.
>>345414565
I think most people would take issue with the labeling of all violence as murder, even all killing. Example, say I play a game where I'm a WWII soldier. Lots of violence, killing, right? This guy lumps it all under 'mass murder'. It's dismissive and frankly, makes this guy look like the worst kind of pussy. There's such a thing as justified violence and the people who try to claim otherwise show a remarkable lack of understanding about the world, history, and the human race.
...just a LITTLE bit irked.
>>345418638
she's a chick cartoonist
I agree but I feel like his statement should have a giant asterisk next to it, because there's a lot of context and nuance to the situation. if only he would write an actual argument instead of 140 characters of his typical smug fuckery
>>345418358
If it weren't for nerds there would be no video games or a platform for her to whine about video games or nerds.
>>345419137
She sucks.
>>345419384
The man made one game that was successful and now he has "Artist cred"
He's never not going to be a smug cunt.
>>345418657
>X did nothing wrongs.
People say that for blatantly 2 dimensional and shitty characters as is.
Example:Nui
Anyway, despite your claims of not having things be limited, your point of view is just that. Limiting things to being open only. 2 dimensional characters and stories are fine in certain things.
More importantly you're talking like all genres need to follow this. I assume you dont mean that, but without you stating such, I cant be sure.
>>345419732
What are 2 dimensional characters fine in? Give examples, aside from side and backdrop characters that obvious don't have the important to be developed.
>>345419384
It's almost like Twitter is a shitty platform for actual discussion and anyone who tries to use it as such is a retard whose opinion is not worth listening to in the first place.
>>345419857
Any genre that isnt trying to be super serious or realistic.
Comedies for one.
Discussions about games as art on internet always give impression that there only two types of games: super visceral killing simulators and melancholical indie puzzles about being sad
>>345420039
Well I wasn't talking about those. Hell some genres of games don't even need characters or a story at all.
But I was talking about all these "political issues" in games that apparently need to have "conversations made" about them.
If you are going to attempt to talk about important issues, having 2D characters and a propagandist approach that doesn't show all sides is going to be shit. And that's what these SJW's want. Interpretation is to dangerous because someone might interpret it "wrong". This should be obvious anyways and not even need to be pointed out.
But yeah, other games like sims, racing games, fighters etc do not even need a story, or any characterization behind a cool design and some personality quirk to make them interesting. They are fine being 2D but it's not what I was talking about when I was saying stories, if they want to be good, need to present issues and characters objectively and let the viewer decide on the morals and if it's good or bad yet, instead of being heavy handed and preachy.
I don't think something like DOA even has a question for the audience or a point to give, that is just mindless fun and hot girls. It's not relevant that that have fully fleshed out characters. But Dues Ex for example should. Dues Ex filled with 2D characters and would be fucking shit. Every side at least gets an oppurtunity to explain themselves to the player in Deus Ex and it's up to the player to decide what is the right and wrong thing, not for the developer to tell.
>>345397813
Yes, the visual theme of DMC could be changed with little to no affect on the course gameplay, but it specifically uses demons cuz they needed something similar to zombies since it was RE4 at one point.
But look at Kamiya's other games. Different type of action games that share some Kamiya's traits with varying aesthetics based on either what he personally likes or would be appropriate for the story that was chosen.
Plus, look at the cartoony Dante in VJ.
>>345420767
In that case, I agree with you completely.
Sadly I did not read the full reply chain, so I was unaware you were just speaking about how SJW's want stories to be.
>>345384413
>video game experts
There's your problem op. Those people don't exist. There are only self proclaimed experts that seem to think their opinion more has more worth than others.
>>345421401
No worries, glad we could come to an understanding anon.
>>345384413
OP can't inb4
/v/ isn't any good at discussing depth or mechanics either.
>>345423162
Better than any games news outlet out there.
>>345423162
Thats just blatant generalization, aka, /v/ is one person.
>>345387830
I don't think the dev's themselves should put in a hard "this is obviously the moral choice and you should feel like a shitlord for thinking otherwise" position on story themes in games, but he is a little bit right. It did feel like they could have taken Human Revolution farther with the pro/anti augment thing. It felt to me like the whole theme of the story was just sort of there in the background if you bothered to read between the lines.
The original had Gunther and whatsherface fighting you because they felt threatened that JC's new-generation augments had made them obsolete, more direct class-based tensions with the cure for the plague being distributed to people in power. HR tried to hit both of those notes, they brought it up but the game didn't use it very well.
>>345384413
Why are you reading the opinions of communist pseudo-intellectuals and then thinking there is a chance they are saying something of value? Game journalists are retards who know nothing about games, art or journalism for that matter. Their opinion is less valid than that of timmy the 8 year old xbox gamer.
>>345423162
This thread has some pretty good discussion
>>345384413
I get what you're saying but your argument is rethorical.
Yes of course better deeper gameplay trump story and aesthetics every time.
>>345411004
Just found this thread, but do you not understand that what you just said sounds an awful lot like "execution animations are good because they take away from the nuance of the strategy?"
Health management is a facet of strategy in doomlike games and execution heals have the exact same major negative consequence of regenerating health: that being that the lack of healing items removes a major element in the design of and possible approaches to a level.
