To my knowledge, no one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers. That a game can aspire to artistic importance as a visual experience, I accept. But for most gamers, video games represent a loss of those precious hours we have available to make ourselves more cultured, civilized and empathetic.
>>345284850
We had this thread on /tv/
>>345285180
We've had this thread on /v/ since I first started coming here.
before this thread goes to shit:
video games aren't art. the only people who want it to be called art are seeking validation by better-adjusted adults for continuing to indulge their childhood hobbies after they're supposed to have outgrown them.
>movie critic born in the 40s
>having useful input on video games
Pick one and only one.
![1052059pw81JWGF[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/LqYvsWG.jpg "1052059pw81JWGF[1].jpg")
TOAST
shitting on a white canvas can be art, anything can be.
this discussion is pointless, as is art.
>>345284850
>dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers
Dude, they're EA marketers and reddit transplants.
They are going to continue to bleat
>muh harlem hellfighters
>muh colonials
>go back to /pol/
over and over again. You can try and direct them to how colonials didn't do much in the Euro front where the game is set. You can point out the hypocrisy of why it's okay to cherry pick a handful of blacks while adding Serbia, Russia, Belgium, and Bulgaria are powers too cherrypicked.
They don't care. They're pushing the narrative that if you question the authenticity, you're a vile racist, which may turn into "if you don't like bf1 you're racist."
We've been bitching about the lack of bolt actions and odd vehicle gimicks, but they don't care.
>go play x if you don't like it
>bolt actions in WWI? IT'S NOT A SIMULATOR
I hope to christ it's just shills. Never have I seen an EA game defended so hard.
>>345285276
Video games are art.
It's just that title is meaningless. What is 'art'? Damn near anything. If soup cans are considered art so are games.
The question is why does anyone care? It's not like going to school for game design is any wiser a career move than going to art school.
>>345285506
Video games aren't art. They're a mechanical interaction between a player and a system. They're science.
Art as a title isn't meaningless, but games don't need to be called art to be important. Sports aren't art. Competition isn't art. Why do games have to be called art?
Fancy words for a baseless argument.
"Video games are a waste of time, but movies aren't." Does not delve into WHY at all. Just an opinion or intro to an actual argument.
>>345285506
>>345285746
Art issubjective, which means video games are and aren't, depending on who is making the claim
>>345285746
What is art according to you?
>>345284850
Games are meant to be games.
There's a certain craftsmanship to making a good video game that is entirely different from film and literature.
You don't shitpost about how monopoly doesn't compare to a clockwork orange or how dungeons and dragons isn't on the same level as kant, because that's fucking stupid.
Same with video games and comparing them to other mediums.
>>345285934
Human ingenuity applied in such a way that something's created for the sake of creation. Video games are strictly commercial products with the odd exception (SotC, Journey, whatever holds up that you consider an art game).
Also most people have to generally agree that whatever's considered art is actually art, and the majority consensus is "video games aren't art."
>>345286091
>SotC, Journey,
LMAO
>>345284850
That may have been the case at one time, but we're improving things... slowly.
Thanks Ebert.
>>345286091
>odd exception
So games are art
>>345286178
>shadow of the colossus isn't a well-paced story-driven experience with fantastic gameplay from start to finish
have you not played it
>>345285746
That's some dumb fucking logic. Interaction doesn't have shit to do with what defines art. You play a movie off a laptop. That requires interaction with a system. You look at a piece of art. That requires light to be reflected off the canvas to be received by your eyes. By your logic, that's science.
Art is interpretation, not interaction. Considering video games are filled with elements that are already pieces of art on their own (music, computer art, prose, etc) it takes a real myopic motherfucker to not see that video games are an artform.
The artform can be abused just like any other one. It can be a cashgrab, just like a Michael Bay film or most porn is.
>>345285746
>Why do games have to be called art?
Because that's what some of them are.
>>345286258
>the exception is the rule
you're retarded, so I guess that means the whole human race is too
>>345286318
>art is interpretation, not interaction
nice job proving my point, dumbass
>>345285478
was this post made by a bot?
>>345285506
>It's just that title is meaningless.
Because people have been trying very hard to make the term meaningless for the most part of the 20th century.
>>345286091
>and the majority consensus is "video games aren't art
The supreme court would disagree with you.
>>345286307
The real question here is, have you played anything other than those 2 games?
>>345286517
>supreme court
>indicative of the majority opinion of most americans
yeah alright
>>345285407
In fact, Keith Boadwee got tenure at a major art college doing just that.
>>345285746
>competition isn't art
You're looking at the wrong end, you dip. The player, the competitor, isn't making the art. The game is art. The developers made it.
An apt analogy is a race through a well-crafted hedge maze or a race against the clock to solve a beautiful, wooden Rubix cube.
>>345284850
Asura's Wrath, your move.
>>345285276
Your whole argument is an ad hominem.
>>345286091
That's just wrong. Almost all games are created with the intention of making a game that is enjoyable and appreciable by the developer. The only constraints of commercialism are what make bad, or uninspired games. However that is true amongst most artists that may feel rushed or pressured to make a certain amount of movies, include marketable characters, etc.
>>345286584
Pretty sure most Americans don't give a single shit about classical paintings or classical music either. Are they not art anymore?
Since when was art defined by the fucking opinion of the masses anyway? It's always been the OPPOSITE. What was considered art, what was encouraged to be worked on by artists, was what pleased the kings / emperors / individuals in power.
>>345286421
I didn't prove your fucking point. Your point (well, only part of one, because your argument is terribly defined and completely scattered) was that video games can't be art because they're just an interface between an operator and a system. I'm saying the interface has nothing to do with it. What matters is how the operator internally interprets the artform.
Whenever this shit starts flying over your head, feel free to tap out.
Brothers: Tale of Two Sons is what video game art probably looks like. It actually expresses itself/tells a story through the use of the game controls.
>>345286091
Ad populum.
Blah blah blah I'm on /v/ so I have to pretend to be cynical blah blah blah gamers are dead blah blah blah gaming is the lowest form of entertainment because I totally read books and I'm not talking out of my ass blah blah blah something about degeneracy.
Now give me your (you)'s.
>Deus Ex
>MGS2
Just two examples
>>345286867
>Almost all games are created with the intention of making a game that is enjoyable and appreciable by the developer.
Top kek.
Software devs are just working for next week's paycheck.
Wait no it's #4theplayers, right?
Dumbass sonyyger.
>>345284850
>more cultured, civilized and empathetic
I'm watching EVO right now and there's plenty of culture, civility and empathy (and salt).
>>345284850
>Quote from a man that, later on in life, retracted that statement and admitted he was just being an old curmudgeon
When will this shitty meme stop?
Anything can be art. It's all perceptual/opinion. Grown men who get film degrees argue over the validity of their education and try not to regret wasting time/money.
>>345286996
>>345286947
>>345286941
>>345286924
Hellooo reddit
>>345287139
Ideas for development don't come from the paycheck. The paycheck isn't a guide on how to develop a game.
>this art form isn't as good as these other artforms therefore it isn't actually art.
Really shitty argument.
>>345287323
Nice argument, dipshit. But no, this is actually /v/, and your attempt to bail out of the argument is weak as fuck.
>>345287323
>i lost the argument
>>345287323
Do you sometimes scratch your ass and smell your finger after? I do that sometimes.
>>345287352
>The paycheck isn't a guide on how to develop a game
Yes it is. This is why they're still in business. They look to maximize profits eg by aiming for a particular or larger target audience and tailoring the game for them.
>>345287575
>>345287565
>>345287556
thanks for the (You)s lmao
>>345286947
>game about two brothers
>it's single player
Also it's on fucking mobile. Lame.
Real video game art would be RTS games. Pure conquering and violence.
>>345284850
Just off the top of my head?
>Bioshock
>Spec Ops: The Line
>Journey
>Shadow of the Colossus
>The Last of Us
>Earthbound (Unique art direction aside, the Mu Training, final boss, and just... everything about Magicant stand out as some pretty deep, existential shit)
And bonus dark horse
>Halo: ReachCurrent Objective: Survive
What cunts like Ebert fail to understand is that just because not all games qualify as art, that doesn't mean none of them do. Call of Duty isn't art, but neither is Transformers: Dark of the Moon.
anything can be considered art given the CONTEXT.
any sort of value judgement made about a work is completely subjective (at the personal level and culturally)
"what is art?" is a question that doesn't make sense.
"Is a work good or bad at doing something" is much more useful in communicating about it.
the word "cultured" is completely outmoded.
>>345288317
AAA games cannot be art you stupid fuck.
>>345288739
Why not?
>>345287139
I don't and have never owned a Sony console.
People work to live. Yes.
People create to live. No.
What are you trying to say?
>>345286680
It barely qualifies as a game and as an art piece it's a generic action flick based off cliffnotes of Indian mythology.
>>345288841
Because the ones creating the game are employees of a company simply following orders from higher up based on what will maximize profits.
>>345288317
The shitty movie and game you mentioned are art.
Just shitty art.
Art does not have a good connotation. It is just a creation.
>>345289103
How they decide to work within those limitations is what can create good or bad art though. If they create something good, it's good. If they create something bad, it's bad. Is that really hard for you to understand?
>>345287106
>Deus Ex
Bottom of the fucking barrel conspiracy theory bullshit with baby-tier introductory philosophy.
>mgs2
See above.
>>345289103
So you know for a fact that every member of every AAA team ever did not have any passion for creating things and did not choose to work in such a profession because of said passion?
You're retarded. On top of that you also make the weird claim that the intention is what makes something art. If that were true, about 99% of everything ever called art in the entire history of humanity would no longer be art.
>>345289290
Damn dude, they create because it's their job. There's no higher meaning or deeper message to what they do.
>>345288317
Are people who keep praising spec ops just completely unaware of apocalypse now or heart of darkness?
>>345289581
Some people choose their jobs. Some even choose to found new companies, which is where they all begin. Did you forget that part?
>>345288963
>People create to live. No.
are you completely unaware of what life as an artist is or has been for the past millennia?
The word 'art' needs to be deprecated.
>>345289581
"They create because" and but "they create" is different. When you make something it requires some inspiration.
>>345289672
>Some even choose to found new companies
We are talking about AAA.
If someone wanted to carry out his artistic intention he would not become a code-monkey on a 100 man team.
>>345288739
>>345289103
Michelangelo's magnum opus is the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and he was commissioned (as in, was paid, handsomely) to paint it by the Vatican under Pope Julius.
I'm loving the Indie Game renaissance as much as any man with a shred of taste, but the idea that business and creativity are irreconcilable is absurd; the opposite is true, in fact.
Go back to prepping Brianna for the bull, hipster trash.
>>345289137
>To my knowledge, no one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers.
Do you have a point? "Art" here refers to "art worthy of discussion, reverence, or respect."
Transformers and Call of Duty are mindless fun, and there's nothing wrong with mindless fun, but I wouldn't say they made much of an impact on the cultural landscape.
The other games I mentioned all inspire thought and emotion, and had an idea/theme they wanted the player to experience and explore.
If anything, I'd say the interactive component makes games inherently more artistically relevant than film.
>>345289501
see
>>345290136
And the intention to create art matters.
>>345284850
Undertale.
>>345284850
if films really were art then how come they haven't adapted and shot them at higher fps?because they want to put less money towards the actual art of props/sets/makeup
>>345290136
>We are talking about AAA.
Yeah, and? ALL companies were founded by people, individuals. Not to mention many AAA companies started as smaller studios.
>If someone wanted to carry out his artistic intention he would not become a code-monkey on a 100 man team.
Who the fuck are you to speak for everyone like that? What about people who genuinely love the shit out of AAA games, and want to work on the next one by their favorite studio? They don't fucking matter now?
Besides, there are plenty of AAA games that feel inspired. Bungie games for example. So fuck off with your dumb shit.
>>345284850
So long as the AAA shitfest from both east and west, the "open world" western meme, gone home style walking sim indie games, and embarrassing otakushit cookie cutter muh "tropes" Japanese games continue to exist games will never be art.
>>345290313
>And the intention to create art matters.
No it doesn't. The artist's opinion of his own creation doesn't matter at all.
>>345290313
You're just repeating what you said before.
>>345290136
It is impossible to make any art without some resources. You can't paint without investing in paint brushes, or play music without an instrument (unless you're a capella singing)
You seriously think that if someone has enough of this vague "intention" you're talking about they can make the masterpiece they want?
>>345291002
It matters somewhat in the interpretation of his work though. "death of the author" doesn't mean original intent in creation is irrelevant, it just states meaning can be derived from lack of intent/context.
>>345290747
>Who the fuck are you to speak for everyone like that? What about people who genuinely love the shit out of AAA games, and want to work on the next one by their favorite studio?
>>345289103
>plenty of AAA games that feel inspired
>feel inspired
Is this supposed to be an argument?
Whatever you find on the store shelf is what the stakeholders thought would produce the most profit. Simple as that.
>>345291323
>You seriously think that if someone has enough of this vague "intention" you're talking about they can make the masterpiece they want?
The difference is between money enabling you to create art as you envisioned it or forcing you to create "art" a certain way.
>>345291735
>Is this supposed to be an argument?
Is trying to convince me that intent matters and that no one working at AAA devs have any creative intent anyway supposed to be?
Bottom line is that most of the best video games ever made are AAA games. So, your argument is dogshit mate.
>>345292053
>best games are AAA
>therefore AAA games are art
Non-sequitur, you're at the end of your rope.
>>345292338
But my definition of art is clearly eclectic. So to me, the best things are in fact what is art.
The intent doesn't matter. If Ed McMillen started making the claim that he created Binding of Isaac with the intention of creating art, he is free to do so, but I would laugh in his fat face because the game is shit.
>>345292971
>But my definition
Then there's no point in arguing any further.
>>345293127
Your definition isn't objective. Get off your high horse.
>>345284850
You cannot learn anything about real life from cinema. It's still just entertainment.
You're not exploring the human condition, you're just watching fictional characters in an unrealistic world do it.
Who gives a fuck
>>345284850
let's see you talk shit now that you don't have a jaw ebert
>>345284850
He's approaching the genre from the viewpoint of movies and books. "Dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists, and composers" are all they key parts of literature and theater but with games you also have level of design and actual interaction within the medium. Something neither literature or theater routinely incorporate. As a result you can't hold them to the same standards.
Video games are a craft not an art.
>>345285506
> If soup cans are considered art so are games.
Hurr durr dae modern art is shit
>>345294080
I mean, he's also dead. I feel like you kind of buried the lead there.
>>345296159
Crafts and arts overlap. Hence the term "arts and crafts".
Oh my god it has never and i mean NEVER mattered rather or not a game is artistic just cease with this shit please
>>345285478
i dont even like EA or battlefront im just sick of people saying there were no blacks or indians in europe during ww1
does battlefield seem to exaggerate it? yes but they did exist
