Lately I've been thinking about the concept of an mmorpg without levels. To me levels are just a way to drag you along and prevent you from hitting end game too quickly. Once you do hit end game all there is to do is a few dungeons and raids. Without levels I believe a mmorpg can focus on the entire game rather than what is available at level cap.
The challenges I see with this system is finding a way to keep people going back to all zones and keep raids and dungeons difficult once you get whatever gear is considered the best in slot. There is also the problem of how you earn new abilities and such.
What are your thoughts and opinions?
Oh you mean Club Penguin and Habbo Hotel?
>>345061413
There has to be some level of progression. Even if each dungeon rewards players with new gear, there is no incentive to collect it unless there is higher-tiered content that they can only do with the new gear.
>>345062223
Of course, although I don't want dungeons to just turn into something you can easily solo or faceroll yourself through.
>>345061413
You're a victim of bad game design. Levels in RPGs were never intended to specifically gate content and drag you along through defined paths. Levels were created to simulate player character growth. But the purpose of levels in MMORPGs has been changed to gate access to gear along with anything else in the game to prolong your play time. Therefor the purpose of leveling no longer has meaning to the player other than to control content progression.
Removing leveling entirely does nothing but remove the gating aspect of it's currently intended design. Which gets entirely regulated to gear instead to essentially do the same thing since current systems are designed specifically for that purpose.
>>345062623
This.
Many MMOs today just treat leveling like an extended tutorial that ends at level cap. A good game will have your level representative of your skill and what you were able to achieve thus far.
>>345062623
>>345062819
So, what if you remove stats from gear altogether and just give you all your abilities right from the start. You would have a level, but the level doesn't block off content and such, instead your level just shows your progress through the game.
>>345063240
People would just do all the content once and then quit when none was left, it would never sustain server costs
>>345063240
I've talked about this on here before. You have to change the intended purpose of gear progression. Gear no longer serves to increase player statistics and goes back to what we acquire gear for in real life. As tools. If you character wants to accomplish something then they have to acquire the necessary tools to fit the need. This in turn can be used to make all aspects of the game relevant by making specific tools only acquired in specific zones so all zones remain relevant. Need some vibrainium to create a weapon to take down Klaw? Well you're going to have to go to Wakanda to get that. That's just one example, and not a definitive solution. You can design it however you want.
>>345064079
That's a very good idea.
>>345064079
That roundabout puts you right back at "gated" progression OP wants to avoid, just with a different context.
The point is, a game needs progression. There needs to be stuff you can do when you start and stuff you can't do until you acquire levels/gear/skill. A game where you can go everywhere right from the start is like a platformer with an invincibility code, it gets old fast.
>>345064492
The point is to make everything available, but keep it difficult. I don't want people to end up one shotting easier npcs and bosses.
>>345064981
But if everything is available, then that by extension means everything is achievable. So what makes it hard? If there's no levels or meaningful stat progression, then the only way to make it hard is through player reaction and skill. And when you only have player skill and no stats dictating whether or not you can win an encounter, you don't even have an RPG any more. You've made a pure action game. You pretty much just arrived at Monster Hunter
>>345064492
The purpose isn't to remove gating entirely. It's to add meaning back to the systems of the game so people don't feel the way OP does when it comes to dealing with the systems in place. Take a game like the Legend of Zelda on the NES. It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You can go anywhere and do anything you want. But there are certain areas that require certain tools to access. And there are certain tools that make exploration easier as a result. This doesn't needlessly frustrate players because it's designed properly with the player in mind and not specifically to artificially prolong the length of the game.
>>345065428
While everything is available that doesn't mean you can carry all of it with you at any give time and that you can easily just go and get it when you need it. Obviously within the context of the games setting, there will be something in place be that cost, negotiation, or force that will determine all these things based on how it's designed that flesh out the game itself.
This just feels like we're talking about inflation and macroeconomics, but instead of keeping it balanced for the world it's keeping it entertaining.
General thought. I think OP's idea is extremely interesting. And I don't even think it's too wild to think of a non-leveling system MMO.
Think Monster Hunter and Infinifactory. Sure, in MH you have to get gear, but that's just bigger numbers. In both those games the number 1 resource you gain is how you, as a player grow, and gain knowledge and motor skills to tackle on progressively harder challenges. After one playthrough of MH the low rank enemies that seemed hard at first can be done with suboptimal weapons and taking no damage. Subsecuent playthroughs of Infinifactory made me reach extremely efficient solutions. You get the idea.
You can easily translate that thought to a MMO. The fact that you might have to coordinate a 25 man raid, and each of the individual player's mechanical skill and game knowledge makes me think its actually really possible.
>>345067257
cont.
That even sounds like an extremely appealing incentive to attract actually skilled players, instead of autists that grind like mad, or p2w advantages.
>>345067257
Yes, that's pretty much what I'm going for with an mmo without levels. I'm thinking with dungeons and raids there should be a challenge mode which adds more badass looking gear. With challenge mode for dungeons and raids it will remove markers for all npcs attacks and they hit harder.
>2 hours of a thread
>No one mentions Star Wars Galaxies (Pre-CE)
>>345069867
i'm just an underage neo-/v/ summerfag.
please talk to me about that game.
>>345069978
It had the whole no level thing, but instead having progression based specifically on skills you get based on what you do.
So you use rifles, you get rifle EXP and more rifle skills, you heal people you get medic EXP, so on and so forth.
Also your had 3 stat pools for combat and actions being health, stamina, and will (I think). But the total amount of points you had at the beginning was the same at the end and you could freely, over time, swap points from one pool to the other.
Finally, and probably the coolest part, is that progression wasn't based simply on getting better gear and fighting a new dungeon. You had players who did nothing but heal other players wounds or give them buffs as dancers or even simply crafting the weapons for people to go out and fight with.
It was a pretty bold design for the time where the player determined their own progression, even if it meant just having a neat house with a good sunset view.Then they tried to make it like WoW and ruined everything.
>>345065428
what you need to do is toss in a weight limit at the same time
so the guy has to tailor his loadout to what hes doing like a miner ditching all his weapons and armor so he can loot the most rocks or keeping his gear and bringing back less loot
or some guy chosing between medkits and ammo. then youve got parties where people have fluid roles
>>345070238
is the game playable (via legacy servers, pirates or whatever) or is everything dead?
>>345070542
There's SWGEMU that's trying to emulate the game before it became shit, but I haven't checked up on them in a while and it seems progress has slowed to a crawl.
>>345061413
>Read OP
Yeah that sounds interesting
>Mentions "end game"
Yeah..no
>>345069551
It sounds like you would have really liked Guild Wars 1.
RIP.
>>345070814
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKJSC_mteIg
F
