Explain "Sonic was never good."
Break it down for me. What is the persistent flaws that prevented an entire franchise from ever being worthwhile?
Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the only good game.
Sonic suffered from so many awful games that people forgot that the Genesis games are good. Either that or just shit on the early games just to prove a point.
>>345033954
JUSTIFY IT.
No.
>>345033281
Generations was a genuinly great game.
This is coming from somebody that laughs at Sonic 2006 and SA 2 because they're so trashy and can't stand the old 2D Sonics.
>>345033281
It's a meme
It's a bunch of kids trying to fit in by parroting shit that e-celeb "youtubers" say
imo sonics speed never gets shown, its more of a slow patformer with many hinders instead of GATTA GA FAST wich i liked more in generations, was easier to go fast there than the older ones
>>345033954
>CD
>>345034447
Typical, shallow sonicshitter response.
>>345035083
Yet, as the OP, I see no one doing anything except maybe >>345034517, and even his reply is a bit hollow.
"Sonic was never good" is just exactly what it says at face value with zero substance behind it. Good fucking job.
>>345035160
Let me expand
Sonic hasn't done much to differntiate itself from other platformers, the whole premise of Sonic is to be fast and do shit fast, but the gameplay makes Sonic be forced to be slow wich in turn makes it into just another platformer with small, small segments of being fast
Generations had lots of more open spaces and possibilities to avoid those hinders, but the older ones force you to wait for platforms, to wait for shit, and that is not what Sonic should be about, it should be about cool level design coupled with ways of making players able to skip shit but not being forced to be constantly at a walking pace
Sonic never really showed us what it is about really, and that's why Generations was the best one imo
>>345035568
We had tons of "sonic goes really fast with little to know platforming" games and no one ever brings them up.
Sonic Advance 2 is my favorite sonic game.
2D and 3D are completely different beasts, 3D problems are not the same as 2D problems.
So consistent 3D problems include things like loose controls, poor camera, side characters. None of these are what's wrong in 2D sonic
The genesis sonics were really good, and on par with Mario at the time (in my own opinion). I will say Sonic 1 had issues, and Sonic CD has some level layout weirdness, but Sonic 2 is a superb sequel and Sonic 3 & Knuckles is one of the best platformers available.
The 3D sonics in the Dreamcast era were OKish, but have aged badly and introduced a lot of issues that the series has now. I still think Sonic Adventure has a lot of charm, and SA2 had some really good levels and moments (as well as some of the best visuals for the DC), but this is where shit started to go downhill.
Everything past Sonic Heroes is hit or miss, mostly due to Sega going downhill as a company, poor management, rushed games (Sonic '06), over reliance on dumb plots in a series that really should not take itself seriously, really bad controls, etc. Last sonic game that was any good was Sonic Generations, and even that was floaty as shit and had some gameplay issues here and there.
Portable sonic games have been pretty decent, not quite as good as the genesis sonics, but there are very few that I would outright consider bad. The 3DS sonics are kind of eh, but the Gamegear/GBA/DS ones are pretty outstanding.
>>345037651
Replay sonic 1 gg right now and tell me its great again you fucking faggot
>>345038169
It's good, the sequels are better. Is that so wrong?
In my opinion, Sonic stopped being good when SEGA threw in their lot with the edgy teenage crowd. They just couldn't make "mature" story lines work.
>>345033281
It rewarded autism. The game was about going fast and all you had to do to go fast was play each level a dozen times to memorize it. Congrats, you had full autism and went fast and are completely bored of the game.
It's barely a game. It'd be a better game if they pulled the camera out a bit (not possible back then) so you could react to obstacles, rather than relying on prior knowledge of the level.
>>345037113
I really only played sonic 1,2, sonic heroes, sonic 06, sonic unleashed and generations
i hated every last one of them, but by some miracle i actually would rate heroes as one of the better 3d ones, and generations the better of the 2d ones i played
>>345033281
the only good thing about sonic games is the speed
every game turns to shit in the second third/last third of the game because it becomes a shit-tier platformer without any kind of speed or flow
Sega's approach with this series was flawed from the very beginning. They designed the game to spite Nintendo with its Mario. What advantage did their hardware have over Nintendo's? Of course, super blast processing. What did it mean for the game? It had to be FAST.
Faster doesn't mean better for a platforming game at all, however it worked decently for 2d Sonic games. The controls were floaty as fuck, but at least once you mastered the level you could enjoy finishing it in a fast satisfying run.
Things really went to shit when they had to make a Sonic in 3d. Simply put, they never figured out how to make it work.
SA1 and SA2 were impressive games on release, because of how many resources and ambitions went into them, it really showed and made for the games' charm. However, even back then the games were flawed, they didn't control very well and it felt like they tried to squeeze as much shit as they could come up with into the titles while being unable to perfect any of it.
A lot of people have fond memories of the Dreamcast Sonic games, but once they try replaying them they leave disappointed. Truth is, they were never that good.
>>345033281
I really fucking need to turn this into a copypasta.
Sonic was never good. The gimmick and premise of his character is juxtaposed with the genre that he tries to fit into. Sonic's primary characteristic is that he's incredibly fast. However, his main game franchise are action-platformers. The thing that defines this genre is navigating carefully laid traps and dodging enemies to get to a goal that is beset by obstacles which requires careful planning, jumping, and patience.
Sonic does one thing, and one thing only, which is "goes fast". This flies in the face of the game design philosophy needed for a good platformer. If you look at his best work, you find that Sonic 1-3&k all require you to stop and actually think. There's no real point in going fast, and the few moments you do are filled with loopdeloops which aren't even actual obstacles most of the times as you have plenty of space to build up speed. It's really just there for flash.
This is a major reason why recent sonics have been universally panned. The game design flies in the face of the character, but the developers still have to build off of this to keep Sega floating on. This is why Sonic games in the recent eras have loooong stretches of land where there are little to no enemies, platforming, or any good game design whatsoever. And then the other parts of the game are these awkward combat rooms which feel out of place with the whole game.
tl;dr
>Sonic goes too fast to make a decent platformer game work.
>Sonic was never good
Objectively false.
>>345033281
all of us regular kids growing up had Sony Playstations and Super Nintendos. But this one poor kid whose mother neglects? He had a Sega Genesis. Every time we went to his house to play we had an okay time but I couldn't help but wonder why something was so terribly off-putting about his house. His house was clean but also felt so untidy. I also couldn't help but think his mom hated children.
Anyways, that's what I think of Sonic and Sega altogether.
>>345037651
The most memorable SA2 level for me is probably the space rails one, which is sad as fuck since the rails took away the need to control the character in 3D space from the player. They knew the controls were fucked, and the best they could come up with was simply removing the need to control the character.
all of sonics stage is sa2 were good once you mastered the controlls. the problem is all the other non sonic levels even some of shadows levels don't feel as good as sonics becasue no bounce abilty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Rd7dbHyXes
>>345039453
You saying SEGA neglects Sonic?True.
>>345039519
You are welcome to defend your shitty game, segaguy.
>>345039669
Sonic was good.
>>345039519
No need to get shitter-shattered anon.
>>345039727
What makes you think so?
>>345033954
2 and CD are fine too.
Sonic 1 aged a bit poorly. No spindash and the very slow platforming segments bring it down.
>>345033954
There are plenty of good Sonic games anon, CD, 2, 1, Colors, Rush, Advance, Generations, etc
>>345037113
Push forward to win: the game
>>345039840
It was a good momentum-based platformer and I liked the physics and it introduced a cool guy. The art and soundtrack are nice as well.
Why do you hate it so much?
>>345039560
in the other stages you had to balance your self on the rails. i have no idea why they took that out of the stage primarily based on rails.
>>345039990
Isn't that what you guys wanted?
>>345034517
Sonics speed showed up for me bruh
>>345033281
>Millenials/Dah Soniac fanbase..
There.
>>345039990
literally every platformer
>>345035083
I can smell the butthurt
>>345040003
I don't hate it, I just don't like it. It played worse than Mario and Crash games. Sega had a great platforming game, and that was Ristar.
>>345038405
>it rewarded autism
Not an argument
>it's barely a game
not an argument
>dude turn the camera out a bit lmao
>>345039990
>implying
That's Rush. Making Sonic fast AND invincible while boosting was a mistake.
>>345040334
>played worse than Crash
>Ristar > Sonic
That's cool hipster
>>345038694
>the only good thing about the sonic games is the speed
dude gotta go fast lmao
>>345039176
Classic Sonic games > Classic Mario games
What made the old Sonic games good was that the physics served the platforming, not the other way around.
>>345039197
>If you look at his best work, you find that Sonic 1-3&k all require you to stop and actually think
It's almost like you have to actually put effort when you're playing video games...
>>345040893
Did you even read the post, or did your eyes just glaze over for something out of context?
The original games were a great deal more impressive than many platformers of their day because of how expressive and unique the zones were, especially compared to Mario. Every level had more unique set-pieces than the average platformer, and this only expanded with each Sonic title released. Alongside that, the SEGA team did things that a lot of developers didn't do - they actually researched and visited real locations as inspiration for their locales (something which, granted, is commonplace now). You can see this in Sonic 2: when Sonic Team's finest moved to America to collaborate with STI, you got stages like Casino Night (Vegas), Hill Top, and the cut Dust Hill Zone. This was all tied up by the music, which was designed by one of the more famous Japanese artists of the time to be much more cinematic and fitting of a stages atmosphere than most action games were doing at the time.
Now one of the most common rebuttals to saying that Sonic's stages were the best bits of the game, is to say that they weren't that good and the layouts only became tolerable through memorization (see >>345038405 and his nonsense about pulling the camera out). I find this to be patently untrue. Firstly, I will concede that there IS an element of memorization and trial-and-error in the Genesis Sonic games, but this was true of nearly all good games on the Genesis; it was trying to give the arcade experience after all. However, you do not need to actually remember the stage layouts to git gud at Sonic. The more important aspects of Sonic are learning how the physics work, and learning the 'stage grammar'. Every stage has different design rules about what objects appear where, what tiles fit together and so on. After playing through the first act of a zone, it should be pretty clear what these design rules are, and so easy to tackle any obstacles, bar unique set pieces which may take you by surprise. This, to me, is why the 'memorization' meme means little.
will continue in another post
>>345034517
>imo sonics speed never gets shown, its more of a slow patformer with many hinders instead
How "fast" Sonic goes IS dependent upon the quality of the player's control over the game mechanics. This is a perfect example of good execution and speed from a competent individual:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pTEfOvtFhE
TL;DR
Get Good.
>>345040776
People conveniently ignored this post
>>345042436
>filters
>>345033281
He's blue.
>>345039904
>Sonic 1
>Slow platforming
You're doing it wrong man.
>>345042860
Filters aren't always bad. An NTSC filter may be good for Genesis games like Sonic the Hedgehog, because it hides the dithering effect of the water.
That isn't what happened, but still.
>>345033281
It's literally just a giant meme created by people who grew up in the GameCube era and never actually played the early Sonic games until years later. Their first taste of the Sonic games was either the stupidly linear corridors and spindash spamming of the Adventure games (the GameCube ports of course) or the boost games. That and the GOTTA GO FAST meme that started from the 4kids-created theme song to a dubbed anime (which is all you need to disregard it) left them thinking that Sonic is literally all about speed and should only be all about speed, so when they play the classic games they literally think it's supposed to be "hold right to win" and cry when it turns out it's an actual platformer where you need to actually pay attention and be good at the game in order to beat it quickly.
>>345033281
Combine huge sprites with a 4:3 screen that scrolls with Sonic at the center rather than at the opposite end of the direction he's facing like a proper platformer does and you have a game that's barely playable by all but the most autistic. The only way to enjoy Sonic is to memorize every fine detail of the level because the screen doesn't allow you to act naturally to the environment unless you treat it slow and methodically like Prince of Persia or Flashback, thus making the game's high speed gimmick redundant and useless.
>>345037113
Fuck yes, I loved the bosses in this.
>>345043575
Firstly, see this guys post
>>345041926
>Now one of the most common rebuttals to saying that Sonic's stages were the best bits of the game, is to say that they weren't that good and the layouts only became tolerable through memorization (see >>345038405 and his nonsense about pulling the camera out). I find this to be patently untrue. Firstly, I will concede that there IS an element of memorization and trial-and-error in the Genesis Sonic games, but this was true of nearly all good games on the Genesis; it was trying to give the arcade experience after all. However, you do not need to actually remember the stage layouts to git gud at Sonic. The more important aspects of Sonic are learning how the physics work, and learning the 'stage grammar'. Every stage has different design rules about what objects appear where, what tiles fit together and so on. After playing through the first act of a zone, it should be pretty clear what these design rules are, and so easy to tackle any obstacles, bar unique set pieces which may take you by surprise. This, to me, is why the 'memorization' meme means little.
But secondly, get fucking good. The thing I don't get about you classic Sonic haters is that half of you think the originals are 'hold-right-to-win', but then half of you think it's too memorization based, too zoomed in and too platform heavy to ever be fast. It literally can't be both. Sonic is fucking piss easy even if you don't know the level layouts. And for special little children like you there's even the 16:9 widescreen Taxman releases of Sonic that give you more screen space and save files so you don't start back at the beginning for being shit at a game that literally everybody aced when they were 4 years old.
>>345033281
It's a meme you dip
It was always stupid as shit to play. Any autists who was try to played Sonic always running at full speed and trying to accurated hit all openings and collect all rings were the worse people to play old 2D Sonic with. It was bad because it was sold as a platformer and looking back Sonic was never really a good platformer because the speed. This is why those on rail "press A to boost!" games like generations and that wolf one sucked, it tried to translate modern Sonic in 3D and its just a run and win game for me. Easier than the old games but stil shitty platforming.
Sonic's speed was founded upon cheesy now lame 90s teenager concept of cool. So to "outcool" Mario they came up with the old version of "gaming with the cloud" with "blast processing" a bullshit marketing term. So Sonic ran fast but the gameplay was shit as a whole.
Sonic's old concept of cool plus the fact that the games are trash now are the reason Sonic sucks now and slow Mario is still good.
Old games had gameplay and level design while the new games pretty much play themselves.
>>345033281
>Explain "Sonic was never good."
19 year olds who started with Sonic Heroes (first real multiplatform game) so they never got to experience Sonic back when he actually meant something.
>Sonic was never good
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandoned_child_syndrome
http://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/issues/abandonment
http://energeticsinstitute.com.au/abandonment-trauma-grief-adult-relationships
https://happinessweekly.org/2013/08/28/the-abandonment-complex-and-how-to-cope-with-it/
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/bpd.htm
http://www.borderlinepersonalitytreatment.com/abandonment-issues-behaviors-bpd.html
http://www.abandonment.net/abandonment-frequently-asked-questions
http://energeticsinstitute.com.au/abandonment-trauma-grief-adult-relationships/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-many-faces-addiction/201006/understanding-the-pain-abandonment
http://psychologia.co/abandonment-issues
https://www.jordangrayconsulting.com/2014/03/abandonment-issues/
>>345033281
Entire character is a gimmick.
>>345040403
but pressing down will do basically the same too
>>345046673
T. Abandoned child
>>345046635
Kek
>>345033281
You want to fuck dogs.
>>345033281
Sonic is always trying new things
These new things are most of the time mediocre or very bad
People who say the games were never good truly dislike the games or are just trying to get fans and defenders riled up
>>345047937
this
if i should describe "new" (2001-2009) sonic games in a few words it should be missed potential, or mediocre execution
