>it was a READ it's not random
>it's not a luck based choice
>it's a mix up situation you have to read what the opponent does, it's skill based
Is this truly what the majority of fighting game players believe in? That it's possible to magically 'read' what the opponent does in a complete guess-driven situation based on statistics?
Let's say you're waking up from a knockdown and the opponent next to you is either blocking or doing a meaty attack or a command grab. How is this not sheer luck/random situation? Sure there are some factors like if the opponent tends to do some option more often and you can apply that to your game, but then it becomes and endless RPS loop.
I'm fucking baffled that fighting game players actually defend this and think that it's a highly strategic (or even GOOD) aspect of the fighting game genre. It's literally babby's first mind game choice that involves little to no skill.
TLDR: What do you think of RPS or 50/50 situations that an opponent can force on you in a fighting game? Do you think that it promotes more skill than randomness? Would the games be better without them (or more competitively viable)?
>>344118487
>in a complete guess-driven situation based on statistics?
>in a complete guess-driven situation
>based on statistics
>guess-driven
>statistics
Command grabs are pure fucking cancer and only the braindead believe guessing is a skill.
>>344118872
The statistics are made of previous guesses.
Even if you were a superhuman and could remember the last 100 options the opponent chose, it would barely change your chances at picking a better option.
>>344118487
RPS is a very basic concept that a lot of games run on to prevent having blatantly better options that would always be picked, even if it makes little sense. Just like how a rock could crush scissors or actually tear through paper, a command grab shouldn't lose to a punch because you can grab their fist, and you can pull them back in if they roll out the way or some shit.
>>344119113
>Command grabs are pure fucking cancer
No it's not a skill, but it's funny to see disconnects when my one grab outdamages their cute "combos"
SFV is the least random. You want random try learning to play Killer Instinct.
Opponents who play more aggressively are more likely to go for meaties and wakeup DPs, it is possible to get an understanding of your opponent's mental state and behavior through their movement and use of moves.
However, when it comes down to it, all fighting games are glorified versions of rock paper scissors. That is the essence of a fighting game. Just a few weeks back at CEO several of the "eceleb" FGC people were talking about exposing each other at an actual RPS side tournament. Play quake or something if you don't want guessing games. There is literally no way to make a fighting game that doesn't have guessing games in it..
>>344118487
>he cant figure out a players style of attack and predict what they will do next
LMAO
How much of a fucking scrub are you?
>>344119867
>all fighting games are glorified versions of rock paper scissors. That is the essence of a fighting game
This, anyone who says they aren't is just lying to themselves. Doesn't mean it's not fun to some people, it's just what it is.
>>344119867
>KI
>random
Lol someone got windkicked full screen and crossed up to death
>>344120646
rock is combo
paper is combo breaker
scissors is counter breaker
Running that 1/3 guess over and over again is literally how you damage the other player in KI
are people on /v/ that shitty at fighting games, especially sfv
>>344119867
>it is possible to get an understanding of your opponent's mental state and behavior through their movement and use of moves.
Yes it is, but even then your chances are not bigger unless the opponent is a complete beginner who doesn't understand the risks & rewards of each move etc.
>There is literally no way to make a fighting game that doesn't have guessing games in it..
Wrong. There is literally no way to make ANY game where two people interact and compete for a win, without guessing games in it. However, guessing games in the mechanics/rules should be kept at minimum.
It is true that when the tempo rises and the guess-driven situation comes and goes very fast, people tend to fall into patterns more easily (and change their options emotionally/impulsively), but there's barely a single fighting game that utilizes this fact. Third strike with it's parry mechanic? On paper, it's random as fuck mechanic, but it doesn't feel like that in a match.
I think you could drastically reduce the factor of randomness in SFV by introducing a short forward roll wakeup option that just barely goes behind the opponent if you do it and he's in point blank (command grab) range.
>>344118487
People have habits, man. Pay attention to your enemies
>>344120784
What's counter breaker then dumbass?
>>344121013
Did you read the post? It's scissors, the thing that beats paper but loses to rock
>>344120868
>
I think you could drastically reduce the factor of randomness in SFV by introducing a short forward roll wakeup option that just barely goes behind the opponent if you do it and he's in point blank (command grab) range.
Skill is skill Op.
>muh guessing
And magic is real
>>344120784
>>344121109
Actually if you want to be like that, KI is more complex because of the combosystem.
In every fighting game, the basics are
Rock = Throw
Paper = Attack
Scissors = Block
but if you're gonna add that analogy, then KI becomes 1/6 not 1/3.
If it's so random then why do the same people consistently win tournaments? They're not just lucky
>>344120801
/v/ is shitty at any game where you can't bame your team for losing. Don't ask for RTS advice either.
>>344121453
It's not more complex, it's just that when you win with an attack and go into a combo, you just go into a second set of 1/3 guesses.
t. Ultra Bronze players
>>344121278
Know what game has roll options? KOF
know what game nobody plays? KOF.
>>344121497
>just because some aspect is random other aspects quit mattering
>>344121687
How do I get out of Ultra Bronze?
>>344120330
If it's not fun, then don't play them.
Personally I enjoy them, so I will keep playing regardless of how many times this exact thread appears again.
>>344121704
But they win tournaments because they are able to very consistently come out on top in those "guessing game" type situations
Because they got the READS
>>344121634
Except it's not guesses in the combo. There's different animations for each attack strength of doubles, manuals, and linkers along with different general speed.
>>344121962
At a level where both players are intimately familiar with literally every one of the 30-odd characters animations and movesets, yes
>>344121850
But that's what I'm saying. I love fighters, I get what they are in the end and why some people might not like them (beyond just getting beat a lot) and that doesn't stop me from enjoying them for what they are.
>>344121453
>Rock = Throw
>Paper = Attack
>Scissors = Block
If you win with Scissors, you get 1 point. If you win with Rock, you get 2 points. If you win with Paper, you get 5 points. You only get to play RPS if you first fondle your opponents balls while he is trying to do the same to you.
>>344118487
>Is this truly what the majority of fighting game players believe in? That it's possible to magically 'read' what the opponent does in a complete guess-driven situation based on statistics?
Scrub detected.
>>344122103
I misread your post.
>>344122057
Except IG added the strength of the move you are trying to break to the lockouts now, so if you're observant and not just mashing break you don't need to know the unique animations of 30+ characters by heart.
>>344119117
You subconsciously make a mental note of a persons habit. Its how the brain copes with unknowns. eventually you understand the general pattern a person falls into it.
You play rps enough times even then you can guess what your opponent is going to throw out.
The levels of mindgames in rps is real. I was playing ranked matches for rps and got really high just with mindgames.
For a best 3 out of 5 I would start by saying to my opponent Im a rock main. Then I would throw rock twice no matter what. The third throw I would throw paper. Why paper. You see they never see it coming. They expect you to switch to scissors because they are going to throw paper to beat your rock. But you threw paper.
For the really clever guys this is where it gets tricky. If they are smart and can READ your mindgames they throw paper anyways because they are two games up. So paper is the safe bet. Scissors makes them look like an idiot if they lose, throwing rock would be a mix up. But once you throw paper their brains have to try to reconcile why you chose paper. But your next throw is rock. once they have no idea whats going on they panic but you have a read on them and they dont have a read on you. So its easy to make a 3-0 comeback because youre in their head.
>>344122383
How is that helpful when that information only appears after you have been locked out? It doesn't reduce the guessing game aspect of needing to predict which of the moves they're going to use next time.
Lmao /v/ can't even do a DP motion by muscle memory, of course everything is random to them in fighters when they just go unga bunga on the pad and finally throw out an uppercut instead of fireball
If the game ( or any other fighting game ) was so random, then it would be impossible to have consistent results and there wouldn't be good or bad players.
The fact that with training and experience you can consistently defeat someone who is with less training and experience should be enough for anyone who is not braindead to conclude that randomness is not a big factor.
>>344122590
It's helpful because there's enough time to react to each move, even lights of you have good reflexes. That's why the moves are auto-doubles, they hit twice for the opponent to have a fair chance to break on reaction.
>>344122617
I don't think it's just /v/, have you tried to teach a z motion or even just a half circle to somebody? Holy fuck, I never knew somebody could have such alien thought patterns about moving your thumb around.
Yes I said >thumb, I don't have a million sticks to just loan out to people when we play
For all the shit talking /v/ does about people being "casuals" they sure are awful when it comes to fighting games and fighting game discussion.
>>344122978
It's more complex on most non-fighter specific pads to be fair. I'm just glad my cousin had as much patience with me as he did when I visited and we played SF2, 3S and MvC2 otherwise I would never have gotten into fighters beyond bearing the AI up in tekken and MK
>>344122978
I totally agree with you. I don't even feel like it's a "I'm just used to it, so I think it's easy" thing.
I bought a friend SFV in the Steam Sale for $40. He really liked Dudley so he thought he would like Balrog, and he actually fucking rage quit when I was trying to teach him how to do low MP into charged dash punch.
He literally tried to do it six times, then fucking screamed, quit out of the game, then out of teamspeak.
>>344123280
The rules of casual just flip if it's not league, dota, souls or overwatch. In fighters, it's perfectly fine being casual because you're actually having fun unlike those tourneyfag tryhards who aren't having fun the way you are.
>>344120868
You mean like blazblue? The game that avoids almost all of the problems SFV has but no one plays it because anime?
>>344123497
What the hell are you trying to say with your post? I can't understand what you want to say.
i like gamepad more than stick
>>344118487
Post your CFN.
All you whinners never post your CFN when you bitch about shit. i wanna see your garbage rank bronzie
>>344118487
Don't get knocked down.
>>344123738
If play online more often if I didn't have to deal with waves of unga bunga Ryus :(
I miss when Nash was the online monster.
>>344123341
I'm not trying to slam either input choice, I firmly believe you'll do better with what you're used toat least until you try IAD or playing characters with button holding or fast cancelling mechanics, but even then it's doable for some people.
I think johnny and yuzuriha might be the first time I consider getting a stick, I love them and am a sucker for that iai shit, but they're both just annoying on a dualshock.
>>344123391
I'll up and admit I'm a total casual that loses far more than I should, but the controls are the least of my problems.
>>344121634
Kind of but the guess is always in favour of the attacker, counterbreaker doesn't require a strength and has a much more generous window than combo breakers.
Then you've always got the mind game of early cash out.
>>344123391
charge characters are cancer
>>344123636
Why do people seem to hate SFV and capcom's general hold on the western fgc but will go out of their way to avoid any game that isn't SF?
>>344121697
Know what's a good game?
>>344124204
>charge characters made as the easier input characters
>over time turn out the more complex ones
>>344124323
Buffering became a thing.
>>344124204
Urien is GOAT
G
O
A
T
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLFx8uY6GwY
>>344124406
The only person to play that character well was Kuroda. But he is top tier wizard virgin fighting game player.
>>344124263Waku Waku 7
>>344121704
Because its not completely random, it's about understanding your opponent's mental state, habits and preferences and trying to force them into a situation that you can capitalise on.
>>344118487
I mainly play guilty gear i got to gold necali then lost about 1000 points playing balrog on ranked because who gives a fuck.
My main issues with SFV at the moment is that the guessing game feels bad. Where you can make the right read and still feel bad about your decision and the player base is fucking terrible.
>Make a Full on reaction callout
>Connection to opponent lost.
https://twitter.com/Takanub/status/750940345945448448
>>344124626
Doesn't mean he isn't fun.
>>344124626
t. Retard that never played or followed 3S
>>344124761
>>344124626
Name 8 good 3S players
>>344124642
I'm gonna break your fucking legs kiddo
>>344124626
Is this nigger serious?
>>344120005
Fucking THIS.
>>344118487
That's black-and-white.
Luck is as involved as reading
It's perfectly possible to learn some opponent patterns and make accurate reads as much it's indeed luck based, because the opponent may introduce a new different approach or mix up in a unpredictable way for a while
>>344124830
Daigo
Justin Wong
Gootecks
Pikachuakuma
Jackie Chan
>>344124848
>I'm gonna break your fucking legs kiddo
I'm sorry senpai
SFV is unadulterated garbage but i'll play it for urien
people will drop 5 faster than they dropped 4 the second capcom releases anything different. it's just terrible
>>344124830
Gootecks
Mr. Ryan
Captain Gutierrez
The Pog Champ
>>344123636
>>344120868
No even when you roll on wakeup like for example games like blazblue or kof it's still a guessing game. People can do setups that expect you to roll in a certain direction or they punish you for trying to roll altogether or even they simply attack you continuously if you decide to wait before rolling. Still a bunch of guessing games but even more added now that you can roll on wakeup.
>>344125005
But people didn't drop 4 until 5 came out
>>344125112
So you just want a get out of jail free card in every situation essentially
>>344125404
That's essentially impossible since alpha counter and burst bait setups existed since day 1.
>>344124718
Because nothing is on the line. And the points don't matter just like americans in top 8.
>>344125112
But because they have to think about their set up makes the guessing game more engaging for both players. instead of just RPS.
I'm not moving to remove the guessing from fighting games. I want the guessing to be more engaging for both parties. In SFV it isn't. lot of people have set ups that cover all options so basically watering it down to Attack>Block>Throw. Guilty gear has this problem but not to the same extent because Faultless defense, instant blocking, blitz shield and 0 frame throw. Just the existence of those makes the offense/defense game more engaging.Unless you're fighting johnny
>/v/ complains about scrubs
>probably only plays matches online
lol
>>344126160
Nigga I live in australia
Kangaroos hands are too small to use an arcade stick, and dropbears don't give a fuck about anything that doesn't have to do with eating leaves
>>344125771
But i've played over 50 hours of XRDR and got 0 rage quits while playing the one of the most rage inducing characters to lose too and had 0 RQs.
Meanwhile in SFV i get two RQs an hour minimum.
Both has nothing on the line but I feel like it happens in SF more because the core guessing game feels really stupid on both ends.
>>344118487
It's called mindgames and conditioning. When a human picks between a set of options it's not like he's a computer starting a random number generator, he makes a decision. He either chooses subconciously out of habit and muscle memory (automated setups) or deliberately because he either suspects it to hit or wants to test you (based on gathered information so far). Either way it's not true randomness and thus can be countered if you know what his habits and/or thought process are.
People aren't fucking slot machines.
>>344124761
And people only gave a shit about Q and Urien when Kuroda would play him at SBO and when Tokido would body people with Urien. Just a bunch of dick ridding players.
Here's the thing you don't understand. In RPS, all options are the same mechanically. All three lose and win against two different options. There is no rhyme or reason to pick one over the other. In fighting games the mechanics aren't so simple. Some options are safer while others are more risky but offer more reward. By reading not only your opponent, but the state of the game, and their characters options you make your choice. And this is not just part of fighting games, this IS fighting games. It's what they are about and what makes them fun. It's also what separates the best of the best from the rest of us. They not only read the opponent, the game, and the character, but influence the opponents moves with their own. If fighting games were truly a RPS loop then guys like Infiltration wouldn't be able to be so consistent at what they do.
>>344126984
>If fighting games were truly a RPS loop then guys like Infiltration wouldn't be able to be so consistent at what they do.
Yeah they would. In a long drawn out set of RPS you can end up conditioning the person to throw predictably and win just off that.
Fighting games boil down to like this weird mix of RPS and chess
>>344124626
Rx?
>>344127948
>not watching the RPS set at NCR with Hellpockets on commentary
>>344127948
Yes but if that person knows your conditioning them to throw something then they can break your conditioning while trying to condition you. But you know that they know you're conditioning them while he's trying to condition you so you would follow along with their conditioning until it seemed like a good time to break the conditioning. BUT they were expecting this and you fell right into their trap.
>>344118487
This happens in real sports
That's only one of the parts anon, the other is forcing your opponent into a pattern of actions that you can completely control/punish
>>344128585
This is whats great about high level sets because at a certain point only the dumbest shit will start working.
The better a person is, the less predictable they are. It doesn't matter if you can get a comfortable feel for joe scrub. Remember OP isn't calling games random as a whole.
>>344118487
FG casters enforce this myth. I like hearing them, just as I love and require casters in any game. It's just sad hearing FG casters having to "tell the story" of random impulses.
>>344126984
Yeah it's good that options are unequal, but statistically smart moves win *in spite of* the "reading" aspect.
>>344128585
M I N D G A M E S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySz7GUty2rs
>>344118487
If everything is just luck why good players defeat bad players?
>>344127948
As far as I know, no one who does RPS seriously has displayed the level of consistency as any top fighting game players. RPS isn't so much about conditioning as it is in recognizing non-random behavior patterns.
>>344128998
it's only about 10% luck
>>344130316
20% skill
>>344130412
70% water.
>>344130412
15% concentrated power of will
>>344118487
Every player has patterns. But having to guess is still shit design.
>>344131052
There's guessing in every game. Whether or not the game is heavily skewed towards guessing is what matters.
>>344130529
5% pleasure
>>344120646
>>344121013
>>344121453
>>344121962
>>344122383
>>344124761
Kys. SFV is the best fighting game ever made.
You're all either shitters or KIbabbies who are street fighter rejects.
Again, kys
>played cal-p and cal-i and had dozens of LAN victories with my friends in 1.6
>played in the highest MMR in league with same friends
>all of us raced to the top of SC2 ladder, competing for highest rank between us
>i move on to fighting games, much much more challenging but learning is the funnest shit i've ever done
>jump between anime and street fighter, favorite is guilty gear
>none of my friends will even touch fightan because of the learning curve
>local scene only plays on nights when i work 5am shifts afterwards
>only practice partners live on the opposite coast so it's laggy abysmal shit
>practicing in ranked is retarded
fuck i'm destined to be terrible forever
>>344132846
>my favorite is guilty gear
Kys shitter
>>344133326
pls don't bully goobers, they have it hard as it is
>>344133468
No, fuck you. Goobers deserve every bit of abuse they get.
>>344118487
Reads do exist, but people exaggerate what is a read. A lot of "reads" are just blind, or, at best, educated guesses that work out.
There are definitely hard reads, but there are also definitely blind guesses that work out and get labelled as a read.
>>344131052
You have to guess in real life fighting, too. Sometimes, you just make a guess and see what happens from there. Sometimes it pays off, and sometimes it doesn't.
Educated guess
>>344118487
Why didn't you complain about this years ago?
Is SonicFox good?
>>344126091
>. lot of people have set ups that cover all options
>Guilty gear has this problem but not to the same extent
GG is full of set play, it has the problem to a much worse extent
>>344134764
He's good at rushdown mixup kusoge like DoA, SG, and NRS games.
He's kind of shit at SFV, the top 8 in March was a fluke. He got demolished in KI pools last year Evo, and he can't break into marvel.
>>344127948
But there is more to it than that
Certain things put players in different states like jumping or knocked down. The options you will go for here and what should be done against you change. However you also have different types of get up moves meaning you can go back, get straight up or delay wake up. But then you also have stuff like meter meaning you can preform another type of move be it a super or an ex which will have different properties. Then you have distances to worry about at difference distances stuff doesn't work or works better. Then you have the execution side meaning although you chose paper against rock you didn't preform paper right so lose anyway.
It is RPS will so many other options added, situational concepts and a level of execution
>>344135019
No footsies and poor reads?
>>344134764
In SF not really. His top 8 was a fraud because he had a free bracket while everyone else played killers.
>>344118487
Each player's behaviour is communicated through the way they fight and from moment to moment they might have the upper hand or not, giving you an instinctive feeling of what is going to happen. If you've ever watched the anime kenshin, he analyzes his opponents psychology from the way they fight and when he understands them finds a way to beat them. It's similar to that and it is why fighting games are the best type of multiplayer; because there is more and longer communication between players than for example an fps with short ttk
>>344134891
GG gives you a lot of defensive options though.
>>344134764
Maybe.
If he wasn't still focused on school and had time to dedicate to a game with real talent in it then he might make some waves.
I'd like to see him try and go serious into GG or KI.
>>344135901
He's a senior, right?
>>344135992
College now, I think.
>>344136050
When was he in Highschool? Was that MK9 and Injustice? Now it's SG, DOA and SFV?
>>344135829
Doesn't change that it is huge on set play, meanwhile they purposefully made sfv trying to avoid stuff that covers all options. Only Ryu and Rmika even have an unblockable set up
>>344136287
I think he was in highschool last year?
I dunno I don't pay much attention to this stuff.
Footsies are more fun and skillful, it's true. That's why everyone was so glad when SFV promised that it would be an end to the incredible setplay of sf4
I have a group of friends who played smash religiously, and were on a really stupidly high level so they always had fun.
Now they're grown ups and got bored with the latest smash, they all switched to SFV and it's a whole different story. While they're all good at fighting games, there's this one crazy mofo who dominates everyone. I don't know how he does it, because he is probably the one with the least time to play (he is a doctor), I don't join their gaming nights anymore because I get destroyed, but the times I been there and play against him it's like he has some fucking cheat enabled, he blocks when he has to block, he very rarely throws a hit that doesn't connect, the second his CA is up he almost instantly connects it, you can't move without him already harassing you, grabbing you or something, and you can't really predict what he is going to do either, he doesn't wait for anything, it's like he is just sparring vs a punching bag, it's like he is some fucking rabid dog hunting for meat, like a god damn serial killer with no emotions. I once managed to win a round against him, but I guess he was going light because he knows I'm not that crazy about the game, regardless next round he nearly perfect me as Dalshim.
Some of the guys got too annoyed and stopped going when they know he is there, I want to say playing against him is unfun, but it's actually more like enlightening, knowing the game has a higher skill ceiling than I imagined, because my experience online is very boring, everyone repeats the same 2 strings, abuses whatever they can, and just wait for you to make a mistake to spam their boring punishment over and over again always playing safe.
Unless both players are equally knowledgeable and experienced, I don't thinks there's much left to luck. I used to think 3d fighters like Tekken and VF were stupid and you could always win by doing random shit, but one you see pros you realize that luck is probably less than 5% of what decided the match up.
>>344136428
>everyone was so glad when SFV promised that it would be an end to the incredible setplay of sf4
How ironic considering SFV turned out to be very simple and kinda boring.
If you play enough people you learn what people are most likely to do in situations. If you study specific players you'll learn what they'll do. If you play the same player over and over, if you're good at fighting games, you'll learn their play style. It's literally how I got any good at any fighting games. I learned the mechanics in single player and then through multiplayer learned how to apply them and what people are going to do when. You know how many people who have full screen dash attack like to do them right at the start of the round? A-fucking-lot.
It's not based on statistics it's based on just knowing the opponent even if it's the first time against him/her. Rock paper scissors isn't luck or guess based either. If you won the opponent feeling what he/she was going to play then you read the opponent even if it isn't the kind of reading you're thinking about. You're questioning the consciousness of humans if you don't believe in reading in such situations as humans don't just pick the option randomly even if they feel like they used it randomly. The reading also can be as simple as knowing the options the opponent has and then knowing when the opponent will not go for the same option straight in a row. You can feel that the opponent thinks he/she should now go for a specific option and if you were correct you read your opponent as the opponent didn't choose his/her option randomly. And other people are better at feeling/knowing what their opponent is going to use or reading. This is a fact and if you deny it you're a moron and absolute shit at game design. Reading the opponent or mindgames is the only true interaction between the players in PVP games and the most important thing to have in them. The strategic depth of a game is only to give a more interesting ground for mindgames and reading the opponent.
>>344136549
So simple that until recently the same guy has been winning over and over since release. Clearly he understands all the intricacies of simple.
Boxing: a guessing gentleman's game.
>>344136740
Couldn't agree more.
>>344118487
come on man it's plainly obvious that this is your first fighting game and that you haven't figured it out yet
granted, SFV has huge input delay with makes things way more guess-y but far from the point you describe it
your reactions and awareness aren't used to acting at the speed at which fighting games work
>rock paper scissors is luck based
>>344136362
Well, he pulled some cool shit.
>>344136478
I hear good things about Tekken.
>>344136314
Which is why when there is set play in Street Fighter V is far fucking worse then it ever is in Guilty Gear. Never once in Guilty Gear did I feel as helpless as getting into R Mika's set play bullshit which all that takes is one hit from her to get into it. That sort of really good set play you can only find in an experience GG player, but R Mika I see any moron doing the shit she does. Hell I tried her once, figured her buttons and brought her into casual matches to see if I can do that same bs as these Mikas and I did it my first match.
In GG let's say I end up dealing with a character that pretty much does that exact thing Mika does. A simple blitz shield for example and I'm already out of that situation easily. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to give SFV a blitz shield, I'm saying that GG is built around some set play in mind, but you said it yourself I believe, SFV is not. So when there is set play, it feels far more dishonest and cheap cause they purposefully did not design for that in mind. They tried their best to make sure there wasn't any set play in the game. So despite having more set play in GG, set play is far more of a fucking problem in street fighter
>>344137467
Not the same guy, but why then do I not hear about Mikas dominating and taking tourneys? Not trying to be rude, just curious.
>>344137467
tldr: GG has a lot of really good defensive options, SFV almost none
>>344137821
Because Ken is broken and ungabungas everything.
>>344136478
>Dhalsim
Maybe that explains... i get bodied online even to fraudulent ones, doesn't help that they never join any lobbys i make when i invite to learn the matchup.
>>344137981
Is there a tier list of any sort? Is Ken really that good?
>>344137467
And Mika is the only character with it to that extent, and even then you have vresersal and mika has weak options to get in. Plus because of how often she resets and only has one set up that covers all option you have a much better chance of dealing with it, even then some characters can with a dp so it's not even a fool proof plan it's character specific
GG has to have systems in place to deal with it cause a huge amount of the cast is focused on set play meaning they need a few systems to deal with it or you get marvel touch of death shit. And even then you have to spend resources to do it which if you've used up you are actually helpless. You've gone from arguing that SFV had more, to admitting GG's large focus on it
>>344137821
Because it's not the hardest to avoid getting into it in the first place. It's an annoying match since you have to be running and zoning out for most of the match, but Mika players don't seem to have or use anything that doesn't involves getting into her set play. Reason why you don't see her dominating at tourneys are because that the top players are good enough to not get into that situation to begin with. I'm strictly talking about when you do get into it.
Someone built a RPS AI that beats humans. It's got a win 59% winrate.
http://www.essentially.net/rsp/index.jsp
>>344138201
But in GG we constantly see those types of set ups even with a defensive option being in place
>>344138201
I understand what you mean now.
>>344138063
I haven't switched arguments. I'm a different guy. Sorry for the confusion, perhaps I should have made that clear in my post
>>344137821
Because honestly? Mika players are total trash, you don't see anyone truly good playing her yet there's always some above average fucker who randoms his way into top 16 then gets outplayed.
>>344138341
>>344122418
best reply in the thread gets no replies. typical /v/
also. rock main. pic related
>>344138338
I understand but saying SFV has worse set play that is harder to get out of is just silly. GG has those options because it is so common in that game just as the normal state of play, while in SFV only Mika has it to any real extent, even Laura doesn't have it to anywhere similar levels. Even then you can get out of even her unblockable with some characters without spending meter
>>344118487
>He doesnt use whatever defense mechanic he has when presented with okizeme
>He doesnt condition the opponent to respect his wakeup game
Besides, you lost in neutral, so your opponent has every right to enjoy his oki.
SFV is pretty trashy when it comes to wakeup though, that game has way too much offense but has shitty defense mechanics to compensate.
>>344138280
True and that's just the nature of some of Guilty Gear's playstyle. Not saying you have to like it, cause that just comes down to subjectivity, but I'm just saying what it is. Some characters are very set up focused, but like I said before you have to be very good to get that kind of tight set up in the first place because of all the options they have. Millia is a monster when you watch her at top level tournaments, but I never had issues with her online cause nobody I end up playing against has a good enough Millia. I can say the same about Zato too.
>>344138341
Fuudo's Mika is pretty good. He's also got 2nd at 2 premier tournaments, so is certainly capable of taking a tournament. Lost to Momochi and Phenom doing wake up DP all day.
>>344138884
Further proves the point though, a truly good player with Mika is more than capable of winning shit.
>>344138884
Fuudo's Mika is great cause he is the one person I've seen who doesn't just play her dumb. Though he has a complete inability to learn in sfv for reason, the whole Phenom 11 DPs was embarrassing for him
>>344139018
SFV is just balanced enough you see all characters placing
>His options are A or B
>He did A the last time I did this, so I'll plan for A
>Okay he got hit doing A
>His options are A or B
>He got hit when doing A last time, so maybe he'll try B
>Okay he still went for A
>Based on the rest of this match, I feel like he's a player just stuck in bad habits, so I can keep planning for A
>His options are A or B
>He's stuck in his rut, so I'll plan for A
>Oh shit, he went for B
>Okay so was he baiting me or has he just learned now to deal with it? Shit, A or B next time? Is he going to bait me? Or does he realize that I know how to counter that and will go back to doing A when I plan to stuff B?
That is why people like mind games. Mind games assumes that both players are aware of the meta and can perform on roughly the same level mechanically. If you don't like it, that's fine. Go play your own games.
Is Laura low tier?
>>344128776
In other words high level play devolves into... guessing and playing randomly.
Coincidentally this is exactly what low level play is.
>>344139327
shes simple tier
>>344118487
Wow...is this for real? People like you actually exist? This level of scrub oh shit.
Has to be b8 no way.
>>344139327
She's "scrub stomper" tier.
>>344139327
Lower mid. People were down on her at first buy Lauraboys represented. She relies on a lot of good reads and conditioning struggling a bit in the neutral game but can become very scary in vtrigger especially when you see Wolfkrone dashing like a mad manI kinda got a bit done with her and am focusing on Urien though
>>344138729
Mmm perhaps I'm making it sound like a bigger deal than I want to with Mika's set play. I know there are ways to get out of it, but as you said it's character specific. GG it's universal. I personally feel like it's just more dishonest to have a character like that in a game that focuses on avoiding set play. Especially how easy it is to do for a Mika player in comparison to do the same effective set play in GG. Which takes a lot more skill and understanding. I don't disagree with anything you just said, but that's just how I feel when it comes to it. I don't believe SFV should have any kind of set play to Mika's extent to begin with.
>>344139470
What is her V-Trigger?
>>344138631
Where's Melee? Also tekken should have a tier of his own, under low tier.
WHEN'S URIEN
Balrog is alright but the damage is shit outside of vtrigger
>>344139553
She gains damage, stun, her special get little changes (like lv1 fireball is now lv2 by default) and her vskill dash gets a load more distance
Yeah, it's bullshit.
>>344139559
>Where's Melee
Matrimelee?
Personally id put it in low tier.
Nigga if you wakeup with DP 3 times in a row I'm gonna block the 4th one and smack your ass up for it
Every player has subconscious habits that a good player can latch onto and punish them for it.
By learning from friends I know that I'm guilty of backrolling on wakeup too much.
>>344139371
No, because doing certain things "like in low level play" requires a level of conditioning and reacting on a cap of predicting and previously applied information only higher leveled players can understand. There's a barrier of entry to doing this in high level play that can't work in lower levels because while its unpredictable in a higher level player, a lower level player has simplistic intentions and understanding of the options they're using, so in almost all cases its easy to devolve a low level player trying to emulate craziness, and they just embarrass themselves.
Stop trying to justify why you're bad.
>>344122418
this guy knows
>>344119867
>Opponents who play more aggressively are more likely to go for meaties and wakeup DPs, it is possible to get an understanding of your opponent's mental state and behavior through their movement and use of moves.
>>344120005
>he cant figure out a players style of attack and predict what they will do next
>>344120892
>People have habits, man. Pay attention to your enemies
>>344121868
>Because they got the READS
>>344122418
>You subconsciously make a mental note of a persons habit. Its how the brain copes with unknowns. eventually you understand the general pattern a person falls into it.
>>344126837
>It's called mindgames and conditioning
>>344136740
>It's not based on statistics it's based on just knowing the opponent even if it's the first time against him/her.
People only call it a read or a mind game only after success, casters fuel this disingenuous shit by saying "WOW WHAT A HARD READ" constantly. You can say that people have habits that you can capitalize on if you observe them but you can't predict people with certainty, it's %ish likely he's going to do X like he did before AT BEST.
Humans aren't as good as actual RNGs at being random but we're good enough at it to avoid 100% prediction if any conscious effort is made. The very notion of "reads" being a crock of shit is apparent with high level poker players that don't even bother with that garbage.
Reads aren't real, predictions can't melt steel beams. Fighting games are execution and valuation. Don't get me wrong, both knowing the value of every single option at your disposal against every character and actually being able to execute them reliably is skillful and takes a lot of work but let that mind game bullshit die.
It's also about reading tells and knowing an opponent's play style. Some people really do play characters completely different. Like some players might use their supers ASAP while others save it or choose not to use it in a match. So even if a character is know for being a close ranged fighter, someone might play aggressively to keep the distance closed while another might stay just outside of range and pressure/bait the opponent to close the distance themselves. Once you get a feel for someone its easier to notice where to counter. If someone is overusing grabs or going for the same combo routine then you can compensate. No player can realistically utilize every strategy at all times, we have habits and things we're more comfortable or feel safer with.
Like watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH6dfof5B0Q and see how viscount basically learns low tiers patterns during the match and by the end he's steamrolling the guy.
>>344124204
t.ltg
>>344139502
>Mmm perhaps I'm making it sound like a bigger deal than I want to with Mika's set play.
Because really, she isn't that big a deal just a bit annoying. Even when they have learnt the set ups Mika still loses in neutral relying mostly on you being stupid and getting hit by it. When she has her shit going Mika is still going to play the same guesing games as you cause she lacks options to cover everything, even with nadeshiko you can vreversal (I think throw break might work as well) mika and miss it.
Mika is only string when you panic and aren't aware of what she can do, that's why everyone ws hating on her at first but now she is just a minor annoyance. That's why SF doesn't have the same level of defensive options against it, and having the play style available to those who like it isn't bad when it isn't that strong
>>344139968
>People only call it a read or a mind game only after success
No they don't, people say they got a bad read
look up educated guess
>>344139968
Are you fucking retarded or something? OF COURSE YOU CAN'T PREDICT WITH ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAINTY WHAT A HUMAN BEING WILL DO
BUT GUESSES CAN BE GOOD OR BAD BASED ON WHAT INFORMATION WENT INTO THEM
THAT'S WHY PEOPLE WHO MAKE GOOD GUESSES BASED ON READING WHAT INFORMATION THE OPPONENT GAVE AWAY WIN MUCH MORE OFTEN
AND THAT IS KNOWN TO THE OPPONENT TOO MAKING IT AN IMPLICIT MENTAL CONTEST, OR A GAME OF MINDS, IF YOU WILL
How fucking hard is that to understand?
>>344140173
>look up educated guess
>>344140216
>BUT GUESSES CAN BE GOOD OR BAD BASED ON WHAT INFORMATION WENT INTO THEM
Picking the D4 instead of a D6 when you're trying to roll a 1. It's still random shit bro but not all players can even tell the difference between which option is the D4 and which option is the D6
>>344140507
>comparing an entirely mental process to rolling a physical dice
>>344137467
Just wait until you play a competent Zato, Elphelt, or Johnny.
>>344140642
>comparing an entirely mental process to rolling a physical dice
>making a decision based on what amounts to a statistical % of success is different from a dice
>>344118487
Player Tendency, yo. Just because you can't see certain tendencies or patterns doesn't mean that they don't exist and people don't see them.
>>344140507
But if your dice lands on 1 three times in a row, you can assume that this dice is rigged and has a tendency to land on 1. If it doesn't after and you get random numbers then it was a bad read and the dice is just random. But if the dice was rigged in a way to have a pattern like 1,1,1,4 then you can see it was made to condition you. so instead say 4 on the 4th roll and call it out. Same with fighting games, if he dps on wake up all the time you need to figure out if it is just what he does, if he is just mashing or is this a trick to condition you. This would also involve you seeing how he plays the rest of the time
Also this >>344140642
>>344140820
it's not based on statistics. are you genuinely autistic?
>>344140820
Yeah it's entirely different because one is throwing an inanimate object where the outcome is entirely based on physics while the other involves another human being and the outcome is entirely based on his thought process.
>>344118487
>RPS or 50/50 situations that an opponent can force on you in a fighting game
If you were forced into it you already made a mistake and you're getting punished for it.
There's nothing more to it.
>>344118487
I'm sorry you will never be good at fighting games, or anything in your life.
>>344140734
>That sort of really good set play you can only find in an experience GG player, but R Mika I see any moron doing the shit she does.
I pretty much already addressed that in the post. Grant it I made R Mika's set play sound a lot worse than it is in reality, but I still stand by my point.Also onto the side one of the Elphets I play against regularly is a regular tournament player and far better than me, but even then I don't feel as powerless sometimes. I guess I can give some leeway and suggest the possibility that I'm a better GG player than SF. While admitting since R Mika isn't too common to run into I don't know how to deal with it without being a hassle like GG since the answers to deal with it are pretty obvious.
>>344141657
It's not exactly hard to get stuff going with Zato, Elphelt, Jognny or Millia. Just like playing on a pro level with Mika like Fuudo does is hard when you aren't walking into every dp
>>344141657
GG setplay is better because it takes less reps to kill you, and takes less risks to kill you, and those three chars can just slap you with an unblockable. Mika's unblockable at least requires the spending of a finite resource so she can't even loop it, unlike Johnny or Elph.
Here's a quick tip; if you get AA grabbed or hcb K grabbed, and mika is making you guess between s.MP and command grab, just backdash. You will be air reset by the s.MP for no significant damage, and you will recover in time to punish command grab.
Mika -must- make command grab risks to make her setplay scary, and those open her up to getting mangled by neutral jump and backdash. GG setplay, you just put your projectiles on them and they can't do shit about your mixup. Reads won't help you now, just die.
>>344140940
>it's not based on statistics. are you genuinely autistic?
How is it NOT based on statistics? Whenever you make a judgement call on likely scenarios you mentally apply stats to each one as to what's most likely/least likely and that's on an individual player level. If the actions of both players in a game were recorded you could easily express the actions of both players as statistics. At best it's making guesses with favorable odds but predicting player behavior is still random. It's still picking the D4 vs the D6.
>>344142419
I think the point everyone is trying to make is that, much like Chess, full contact combat sports and other sports that involve a certain level of mind games, the only deciding factor is not a dice roll or a percentage as you seem to imply. If it were purely based on statistics and dice rolls, the term "reading" wouldn't exist.
Reading is about capitalizing on a mistake a player makes in repetition or to bait your opponent into making a decision you want him to make.
I agree with you that there is an ammount of guess put into the mix and that statistics play some part, but, really, you are legit autistic for arguing so fiercely that there is absolutely 0 skills and experience involved and that it's just a numbers/guess game.
Sounds to me like you don't have much experience with competitive games and sports.
Fighting games are fun to play with friends.
>>344142419
No it's not as the opponent makes the decisions consciously and not randomly and if you can get in to your opponents head you know what he will do next.
This anon's post should tell you what it's about: >>344122418
If you still don't understand it you probably have mental problems.
>>344142419
>>344142817
In short, you can't guess a 3 on a dice roll based on the fact that you got a 3 5 times out of 6 and you can't bait the dice into falling on a 6.
>>344142964
>reading comprehension.
IT'S the exact fucking point I'm trying to make. This nigger is trying to convince everyone that playing mind games is the same thing as throwing a dice and hoping for a 6 while I argue that more is involved in the process of mindgame and that you can't trick a fucking dice.
Go back to school.
>>344143146
oops sorry didn't mean to reply to you
>>344118487
It depends. At a lower level everyone hates them. The more you improve, the more you can avoid situations or make things easier to guess
>>344143356
>does a qcf instead of a dp
High level play
>>344142419
>le all informal reasoning is secretly bayes
bayescuck pls go
>>344143356
Fuck off meppz
I deserve the 50/50 for getting in.
My issue is more related to SFV than other fighting game currently on the market.
Don't you think maybe revolving your game too much about honesty leads it to a more boring experience? Just to give you an example, there are some footage of Urien in V doing some combos and set-ups. While looking nice, you can see that he's nowhere as crazy as he was in 3S. This because SFV was built around the idea of making the game more accessible, so removing stuff that defined the character previously such as charge partitioning, Aegis cross-ups and more juggle potential in order to make more people enjoy the game.
Isn't the prestige what makes people want to explore more about a fighting game? The fact I see some very skilled player pulling out some really crazy stuff that I know I wasn't capable pulling out before makes me more excited to see it since I notice the deep stuff into it. This doesn't seem to be happening in V. Of course, better players will always win because they have better fundamentals but when you see a fighting game that after 5 months it came out the meta is still going around the same meta as it was at day-1 really makes me doubt the growth of the game.
>>344145663
>Isn't the prestige what makes people want to explore more about a fighting game?
It definitely is, but you have to know that not being able to do what you want to do is an aggravating experience. Imagine being a new player trying to execute Urien's difficult combos in 3S and finding yourself without much improvement, if any. This frustrates you, and you stop playing the game.
If Capcom wants to make SFV a service game, it's advantageous to keep people playing, right? If that's the case, then you want to make the game more accessible- make it less frustrating, which means making combos a little less complex. It's a trade off in an attempt to keep more people interested in the game than there might have been if the game was more complex.
>>344139559
>tfw il'll never be good with fighting games
>>344118487
Pretty sure reading opponents is part of any sport.
>>344142817
>I think the point everyone is trying to make is that, much like Chess, full contact combat sports and other sports that involve a certain level of mind games
And by a certain level you mean 0 because it's not real. Mind games in Chess? Are you fucking kidding me? I could see it at low level play because players are doing random bullshit that trogs could interpret as "mind games" due to backwards ass teleological thinking.
>If it were purely based on statistics and dice rolls, the term "reading" wouldn't exist.
Reading is just another way we choose to interpret random phenomena.
>but, really, you are legit autistic for arguing so fiercely that there is absolutely 0 skills and experience involved and that it's just a numbers/guess game.
Not saying there's 0 skills and experience involved in a fighting game or even *just* being able capable of determining the most favorable option can still be the wrong call because people can be random as fuck. I touched on it on an earlier post that it takes a lot of experience, hard work and skill to even fucking perceive what the D4 option and what the D6 option even is. You have to know the in and outs of a match up to determine the strength of your options moment to moment with the ever changing state of the game and actually being able to execute what you believe is the strongest option could be another matter entirely.
>>344121594
>>344120801
/v/ is literally DPS tier bad
>>344145663
KoF is an "honest" game series, but retains a faster pace due to simply having a lot of options on both offense and defense.
The "problem" with SF is simply that you don't have a whole lot of options. The way SFV is designed around frame data and the frame buffer also leads to tightly defined situations occuring frequently, which can make the game stale in the long run.
Still, I don't think it's necessarily a problem. It makes for a more simple game, but to be good you still need to adjust to the opponent's playstyle and make good decisions in the neutral game.
>>344126364
>I live in australia
kys
>>344146213
t. /fgg/ fag that pretends to be good.
Speaking of which, how come /v/ has more interesting fighting games discussions than that shithole? /fgg/ feels like a soulless clone of r/kappa, but with fatass lewdposters instead of snarky niggas.
>>344146352
/fgg/ has always been full of cancers
>>344146352
Hey, I'm good
I'm not him, but, I'm good. And I do /fgg/ stuff sometimes.
>>344145834
But Capcom dropped the ball hard by making the game bare bones while trying to make it accessible. You can make a game easier and retain its depth, Capcom chose to dumb it down because it would be still be considered "hard" by casuals. Now everyone can do stupid stuff, shut down their brain and have a 50% chance of a win regardless of skill.
You'd think it wouldn't affect high-level play but its the opposite. Why do you think Infli had so much success so far? He and every half-decent player memorized the characters, learned the frame data but Infli also decided to thoroughly check opponents tendecies/playstyle. In any other game that wasn't gutted to be as simple as SFV he wouldn't have as much success because no matter how good your research is, if you have to make multiple guesses to an opponents pressure while considering the various mechanics, you're gonna slip up. SFV isn't like that, guessed right? Snowball opponent to victory.
>>344146352
/fgg/ is only for shitposting and occasionally finding matches in dead kusoge, not for actual discussion.
>>344118487
In V all you have to do is wait then grab if you're worried about knock down mix ups
>>344146818
I'm actually not good enough at SFV to address whether a single guess is enough to win the round. Isn't the same true for SFIV though? You can get huge damage off of a correct read in SFIV too. What makes SFV exceptionally more snowbally? Could you explain that to me?
when I was a 13 year old playing Tekken 3 and MK Trilogy against my siblings and cousins I used to "read" them and counter their attacks to the point it became unfun for them.
years later playing Soul Calibur 4 I would do the same.
I haven't played a fighting game in years since I've been stuck with PC only but reading is a real thing especially against people who aren't exactly skilled at games.
Reading CPU is impossible.
>>344147184
Shimmies exist. Meaty/throw/shimmy is 33/33/33 without the jump back tech OS.
>>344146352
>implying you are good
>>344146965
you are forgetting the usual waifusfags
>>344148304
I mentioned shitposting tho?
>>344146818
SFV doesnt have ultras which literally reareded players for being bad
online may be going unga with Ryu until you reach Ultra Gold, but we already know there will be balance changes after capcom cup
>>344146352
/fgg/ is far better than /v/
>>344147618
People always want out of a bad situation. SFV made it so you can exploit that to the maximum degree with crush counter. That in turn makes players even more afraid to use their escape cards because even if something isn't crush counter-able it sure as hell is punishable, everything is.
Also pressure is a thing that was completely neutered because of the simple mechanics. The risk/reward ratio of pressure in SFV is atrocious and so the match becomes a counter-poke, crush counter contest. It'd be ok if it was actual footsies but the priority system of normals and 8frame lag renders most of your footsies useless against random buttons. And if you decide to jump in if you're tired of the counter-poking game the priority system,8frame lag, assortment of bad anti-airs for every character and mediocre reward for anti-airing makes it a viable choice.
All those can lead to much more snowball situations. I'm not saying reading your opponent is bad. I'm saying its 90% of its gameplay and all other mechanics are not even required.
Reminder that if you aren't at least ultra silver you're not qualified to discuss game mechanics
>>344138631
The fact that Alpha 3 is higher than 2, Furry Roar 3 is in top tier, Jojo (while a good fanservice game but fundamentally broken) is in high tier, and that MK9 and X are as high as mid tier says a lot about whoever made this image.
>>344123653
my reading comprehension tells me that his post explains how /v/ is hardcore in anything and everything except fighting games, because those who try in fighting games are tryhards
>>344123497
and yet a toxic part of me wants to be part of this community
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsJfLKtGlfw
>>344118487
What you're suggesting is that you shouldn't be punished for getting knocked down.
Which is dumb.
>>344139968
>People only call it a read or a mind game only after success
That's kind of why it's a successful read dumbass. If your response to your opponents move was a bad call, you've read your opponent wrong.
I see what your trying to say, but good god man you're an obnoxious person.
>>344118487
read is just another word for guess... that's why they call it a good read or a bad read...
The thing about SF5, compared to most games, is that most character have very limited defensive options, besides blocking you can v-reversal, wich can also fuck you up or simply reversal, wich most characters don't have. You also have that priority system fucking up so unless you are attacking you are fucked.
>>344149110
>Fighting Game Community
>SSB
Nope.
>>344149110
it's fun watching retards going crazy
>>344149110
Salty fags are the best.
>>344146148
It's still not random because people aren't dices and their decisions are conscious and it's possible to read what the opponent's next decision is. You can read it wrong but it doesn't mean you can't read correctly too. And it's a fact other people are better at reading the opponent than others. It's not guessing or random. It's knowing your opponent.
>>344118487
If it was entirely luck based, then there wouldn't be high-level players that consistently perform better than most players.
By the way, stop being a whiny scrub.
> Sure there are some factors like if the opponent tends to do some option more often and you can apply that to your game
Contradicting your own point. Play a player enough and you'll know what they tend to do in desperation, or when they are unsure.
>Let's say you're waking up from a knockdown and the opponent next to you is either blocking or doing a meaty attack or a command grab
If you have health to spare you can jump or block. If they command throw you'll jump and possibly punish it. If you block you'll give some life and try again. You can try a reversal but possibly take a bigger punish.
If you have no health your options are limited, but it's your fault for being in that situation.
its all a guessing game
you're not thinking while playing. it's all luck
OP disregards how one can manipulate a rival. You can condition most players into jumping, throwing or blocking. That's why is important sometimes to throw a DP or SPD on wakeup, even if you are going to get punished. It teaches the opponent to respect your wake up, thus limiting their choices. It costs some life, sure, but do that a couple of times + get a sense of how aggressive they are + keep tabs on their go-to zoning options = you can effectively reduce the guess game to almost nothing, and even lead people into disadvantage. Unless you are playing a random AI, or playing against someone who is hyper aware of conditioning (high level play,) you can always set up the conditions that limit randomness.
OP complains about randomness, when in reality, fighting games are mostly about psychology and culture. People's ability to control their impulses and their use of popular tech (shared through gameplay) are more important than any split second binary choices.
Most likely, OP and people like him are only thinking about the way their opponents play, and not keeping tabs on their own behavior. Record some losing matches an study your behavior as if it was someone else. It will make you aware of all the stupid shit you are doing, and how easily conditioned you are.
SF isn't even RPS.
Virtua Fighter is.
SF is a dumb game that gives you all sorts of tool to impose 50/50 situations and or automated damage such as command grabs.
>>344126364
There are scenes in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide and Brisbane.
>>344152512
Christ that game is boring to look at.
>>344138050
High Mid. Ridiculous damage, but negative on a lot of attacks.
>>344152189
You don't need to think much to know feel what your opponent will do. If you can get to his mind it's easy. It's all reading and no luck.
>>344148643
You'd have a point if people didn't use those option regularly still even at high play
>>344148643
>The risk/reward ratio of pressure in SFV is atrocious and so the match becomes a counter-poke, crush counter contest.
I feel like you have never actually watched SFV, and if you have barely understood what was happening
>>344118487
>Is this truly what the majority of fighting game players believe in? That it's possible to magically 'read' what the opponent does in a complete guess-driven situation based on statistics?
I can't tell who's trolling any more.
