What game best shows just how illiterate gaymers are and why is it Chrono Cross?
Why is it so difficult for people who claim enjoy this medium to absorb and understand a complex or multi-faceted story?
Why does every plot have to be precisely spelled out or otherwise be filled with memes, references and a highly derivative plot to be "entertaining"?
The funny thing is that, despite all the linearity and dumbing down of the genre, more people than ever are arguing that games are "art", yet they will outright refuse to play a game with an innovative plot like CC or MGS2.
>>344061538
Because gamers are for children and dumb people in general, at least in their vast majority.
For every MGS2 you have 50 CoD equivalents.
>>344061538
Nobody hates Chrono Cross because of the story, they hate it because it IS its own story and not a direct sequel to Chrono Trigger.
>>344061538
better than Trigger
>>344062394
Then why the persistence in calling the media art?
It's clear that it's just consumerist garbage at this point and triple A games are just a product to be sold to make money.
Are we gonna call magazines art now? 'Cause that's basically what modern games are.
>>344062550
Why would you want a retread of the same story?
IIRC Kato went out of his way to not make CC a direct sequel despite Square insisting that it be so.
>>344062550
>own story
>directly ties to consequences of time travel from Trigger
>directly ties up the loose end in form of Schala
>own story
It IS a sequel to Chrono Trigger. It's just not a happy go lucky sequel like most people wanted. Most people are infantile and don't want story where they face consequences, most people just want to have cliche happy ends with their character's powerlevels reaching god levels or shit like that.
When faced with a game where basically the entire old cast dies horribly (Marle and Crono get killed by Dalton, Lucca gets raped and burned alive by Lynx, Magus loses his memory, Robo becomes almost a Doomsday device) as consequences of their meddling with the time and generally more complex and serious plot they just can't handle it.
>>344062841
Have you ever considered that /v/, let alone internet, is not one person? Without a doubt some of the infantile people that want simple happy stories are among those that call for games to be accepted as art, but there's definitely the other side of the spectrum that doesn't identify with said infantile games.
tl;dr Humans are different and have different tastes and opinions, more news at 11
>>344062841
right now, fine art pretty much fits that same description though bro
>>344063195
Also to add to this, modern "art" is garbage in case you haven't noticed despite being called "art".
The word "art" in itself lost its meaning ages ago, I don't even understand why anyone cares at this point.
>>344062550
remember: killing your first game's cast off-screen with a mid-game joke boss is NEVER OKAY.
>>344063195
Its about as much a sequel to Chrono Trigger as the Zelda games are to eachother, except instead of Link you play Lonk. Or the Final Fantasy games.
"Oh yeah by the way those characters you liked are here too."
The kind of sequel people wanted and rage about is that you're not Crono doing Crono things with your buddies you ended the last game with in a similar world. There isn't a single damn similar thing about the games aside from accidental time travel oh and also Schala shows up there at the end. There are still people that vehemently deny any connection at all even afterthe whole burning orphanage partbecause of severe asspain or maybe lack of comprehension about the story like OP suggests.
I fucking love Cross, one of my favorite JRPGs of all time. I recognize it easily a sequel, but its not the kind of "sequel" that people expect and its why everybody is so mad at it. It's obvious.
>>344064331
Also to further this, maybe the fact next to nobody in the US would have known about the Radical Dreamers side "game" played a part in not understanding the plot.
>>344063195
Gaymers are highly factionized now
The only way to sell a game these days is to appeal to the lowest common denominator.
A game like Chrono Cross will NEVER be made again as long as the demographic is like this.
>>344061538
People disliked CC not because they didn't understand the plot but for a whole lot of different reasons which I mostly agree with.
And good lord that battle music. WHAT THE FUCK SQUARE. I get that you wanted to tie into Radical Dreamers and all but jesus christ.
>>344064956
>And good lord that battle music. WHAT THE FUCK SQUARE.
The violin was a little screechy at times but I liked it. That entire battle system was fucking incredible for its time.
>>344061538
Someone please explain to me how Chrono Cross is supposed to be a "shining beacon" of game literacy. Or any JRPG ever, for that matter.
>>344064331
I agree. The whole point of Cross is to revisit the same themes in a different way, which is much better than having a straight up sequel.
Again, if I wanted more trigger I would just replay trigger.
>>344064607
Radical Dreamers has nothing to do with the overall plot. It's just a far off timeline.
>>344064131
Dalton is anything but a joke at that point. He probably spends god knows how many years in a time that isn't his, wanting revenge on chrono.
He's able to become leader of Porre. It's pretty obvious that Chrono made a shitty king though.
>>344064956
The battle music is fine though. Not the best but it's not like it's Sonic Chronicles tier.
>>344065153
Oh fuck yeah the battle system was awesome but man that battle music I just start laughing even thinking about it lmao
>>344061538
i just dont understand how you can have a generic fantasy rpg that was memorable because of time travel and then make a sequel that is crazy tropical fantasy rpg with furries and no time travel and think people are going to accept it. The world map isnt the same, the technology in universe isnt the same, some retard with golem magic some how turns a kingdom ruled by a group of time travelers with superior spells and equipment into ashes in a single night because lol guns. LOL GUNS? NIGGA CHRONO WAS CUTTING UP GOD ROBOTS IN THE FUTURE WITH A WOODEN SWORD.
how the fuck do you kill lavos and then get shot like a bitch by some 12,000,000 year old clown that even his own people thought was a pathetic joke?
>>344065564
>and no time travel
Confirmed for not having played the game.
>>344065215
>He's able to become leader of Porre.
>a town known for its beef jerky and three dock port.
>>344065882
that wasn't real time travel. that was time paradox out of your control deus ex machina bullshit. the only thing the player could do was slide between two dimensions, that's hardly comparable in scope and feel.
>>344061538
The story is fine but the vast majority of the character are incredibly fucking weak.
>>344062550
I didn't like Cross because of its shitty combat system.
>Elements can only be used once in battle(unless you put more of that same element into your grid
>Meanwhile bosses can spam the shit out of them
Literally made the game unfair and broken.
>>344066628
>"I can't bull rush through every encounter without planning again! Shit game!"
ok
>>344066067
>mfw beef jerky in Porre costs 9,900 G
>>344065158
One of the few games to be a deconstruction and have a complex story that the player needs to take in all at once; y'know, kinda like reading a book.
>>344066628
>Literally made the game unfair and broken.
Are you fucking kidding me? Cross was piss easy outside of only 2 fucking bosses that just require a modicum of strategy.
Is this how casual /v/ has become?
>>344066067
Since when were SNES RPGs towns drawn to scale?
>>344067012
And even then for Dario you can just force him into using a debuff
>>344061538
Because the majority of the plot is dumped on you in the last few hours of the game giving you little time to process it.
>>344067751
Do you also complain that books dump a large amount of information on you with little time to processes it?
Did you want a minigame break or something in the middle?
Do you just have ADD or is this really high grade autism?
>>344067751
I feel like the second you stop being Lynx there was a lot of the game just missing. Your whole team just suddenly comes back because hey you're Serge again woo
>>344064331
>>344064607
Radical Dreamers is irrelevant to Cross though.
Cross literally is a replacement for Radical Dreamers.
Also just because retards don't understand it doesn't mean it's not a sequel. The whole "SEQUEL MUST HAVE THE SAME MAIN CHARACTER" shtick is one of the biggest fallacies around in general.
>>344064667
Tell me something I don't know. Even Setsuna that tries to be Chrono-ish fails horribly despite having a completely serious point about regular ritualistic sacrifice of virgin women.
>>344064956
>hating the music
Son you need to kill yourself. Same composer by the way.
I can agree that the sound samples they used were ehhh for some tracks, but composition wise the tracks are great.
>>344066067
Hitler was a literally who kid who was a mediocre painter, your point? Even the biggest "joke" can become someone of great power. Einstein also hated math in school and admitted he was bad at for most of his youth.
Dalton becoming a serious threat brimming with hatred is fully understandable, you go into his time, fuck up his position, fuck up THE ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD HE LIVES IN (Zeal, sure it wasn't you directly but in his eyes you and Magus are the prime reason) and then also get him stranded in a different time and age. He is pissed, he wants blood and he knows techology that's beyond anything the timeline he lands in knows. Imagine knowing modern tech secrets and landing in medieval times for example.
>>344065564
>LOL GUNS? NIGGA CHRONO WAS CUTTING UP GOD ROBOTS IN THE FUTURE WITH A WOODEN SWORD.
Gameplay =/= Story separation.
I bet you're the same retard that doesn't understand the difference between Cutscene Dante and Gameplay Dante.
>>344066067
You do realize that the world map in JRPGs is never 1:1 scale right? Clearly not.
Also all of you fags that are desperate for more Trigger, just go and fucking play Crimson Echoes.
>>344068194
If it's as bad of an info dump as Chrono Cross did, yes. It's bad writing. That being said it isn't as bad in a book because I can turn a page back.
Chrono Cross should have spread out its plot a bit more instead relegating most of it to the middle and the end.
The link to Trigger feels tenuous at best, that's why people won't accept it as a true sequel. The game taking place in the same universe as Trigger comes across as a plot twist, and the original cast shows up just to say "hi, remember us from the first game?"
It doesn't help that the combat system is slow and boring, and everything that was fun about the original game's combat was dropped.
>>344068817
>Trigger comes across as a plot twist
What? Porre is mentioned at the very beginning.
>>344068545
What the hell is an info dump? No really. Are all books longer than a page an info dump?
Not to mention that the text is presented to you a sentence or two at a time, and you have full control over the flow.
If you need to reread a cut-scene just save before it. I really don't see the problem here.
>>344062841
>Then why the persistence in calling the media art?
Because art is not defined by the intellect or intent of it's consumers? Most old master paintings were drawn as commissions, purely for money, Today they are considered to be the epitome of "art", despite being the definition of "consumerist garbage".
>>344068397
>hating the music
He said just the battle music not the whole thing dude.
>>344069339
I'll let this speak for itself.
That last part with the ghosts representing the Trigger protagonists being the worst.
>>344069817
Thanks for confirming you have ADD, like the average gamer you are infantile and have the attention span of a fly.
>>344069352
Are you fucking kidding me?
Compare a commissioned work of Da Vinci, for example, with a some furry pateron shit. Give me a modern paining that can even hold a candle to the mastery of the techniques he used.
Art can sell well and still be good. You don't understand the definition of consumerist.
Books like Lord of the Flies or Animal Farm for example are very high selling and the vocabulary level isn't even that high, yet they're literary masterpieces because of how they approach their respective themes.
>>344069997
I don't mind reading it.
The point is is that it's too many plot points to reveal all at once to the player, especially at the end of the game.
The game has horrible pacing. It's bad writing.
>>344069817
The ending sequence is like what, 10 pages of 12 font text, at most; presented to you a sentence at a time with easy to understand words and the flow of the text at your control.
Again the problem is with you, not the game.
>>344068397
m8 the way you put it makes Dalton more powerful than Lavos, why isn't he the fucking villain then?
>>344069997
I take it the term "needlessly complex" means nothing to you, nor does "convoluted."
>>344069997
>>344069817
I have ADD and Chrono Cross might just be my favorite game. Some people just
have a different tolerance level for certain games and/or storytelling methods.
>>344069817
If they sprinkled this shit around the game instead of having so many useless side character quests the game would have been a lot better. Not really getting any knowledge about what the fuck is happening until those dumps makes the game a lot more boring.
>>344070313
>more powerful than Lavos
He isn't though.
He just happens to know secrets of highly advanced technology and land in a time period that doesn't know said technology. This allows him to exploit that.
People saying "hurr durr how can Dalton even kill Crono and Marle?" don't seem to understand that he invaded with a whole fucking army including fuckton of Golems. Golems in CT were bosses, not just common enemies, and a single Golem COULD fuck you up.
He also managed to steal Masamune before killing Crono and Marle. It's fully feasible for him to kill them.
As for Lavos, he canonically got beaten by the entire gang and not just the 3 party members you had with you. And even then you failed to kill him and only sent him to basically another dimension.
>>344070595
Exactly. I don't hate the plot. Far from it actually. I just think the game needed better pacing.
>>344069817
Man looking at that reminds me of howthey introduce Robo only to kill him ONE minute later.
Seriously that was so lame.
>>344070313
Did you play the game at all?
Lavos isn't exactly a villain, he's just following what his DNA tells him to do.
The overreaching irony of the Chrono games is that Chrono and Serge, humans, are going up against the being that helped them evolve.
The whole Zeal scenario establishes that humans are the real evil for trying to harvest lavos, and this is further extended in Cross during the whole Chronopolis vs the Dragons scenario.
>>344070224
Again, the pacing is entirely in your control. You can reread a sentence if you don't get it. You're the one pressing O, not the game.
And what the fuck is this retarded meme of "too many plot points at once"?
What the fuck do you want, a minigame and some happy music between each paragraph?
Belthasar had a complex motive and he explains it to you.
Yes it's multi-faceted, but so is his plot.
>>344070725
They killed Gato and Johnny too. Game's relentless.
>>344061538
every single person in this thread were trolled
>>344061538
some point of the games dont make sense like, why you have to go to X place (like termina, dragon fortress, sea of eden, etc.) the storytelling of the game is really bad and his weakest point, aside from that (and the unnecessary amount of characters without background) the game is great in every way
>>344070937
>What the fuck do you want, a minigame and some happy music between each paragraph?
I want gameplay.
>>344071115
It's an RPG. A lot of text is expected.
There's plenty of game play to justify 10 minutes of plot development
>>344070951
I know right? They deserved better...
>>344070937
you do realize I was playing off the fact that Dalton being a bigger villain than Lavos would be silly and that was my entire point right
>>344071210
You seem to lack a fundamental understanding of what pacing is.
>>344070937
>the pacing of the movie is in your control, you can press pause at any time!
>17 years later, people are still butthurt that Crono, Marle and Lucca die horribly as consequence of fucking with space-time continuum
lel
>>344071948
The real shitty thing here is you don't get cool adult models of the party, and instead they're toddler sized ghosts?
>>344070595
Part of me thinks the same thing, but the other part of me wonders if i'd even remember half the shit about the plot dump after 40 hours of running around if they just kept dripfeeding it to me.
>>344072292
Well when it's done well there's usually some sort of summarized reflection between the characters about the plot while new elements come up, connecting the dots and shit.
>>344072078
>toddler
The word you're looking for is chibi. Chibi characters can be adults, it's just an artistic choice. I guess the director felt that portraying them like this would make you connect more with them since they had chibi sprites in CT.
>>344070957
Well OP isn't entirely wrong.
>>344072589
I dunno that I'd call their sprites in CT chibi though. SNES Final Fantasy map characters, maybe. Just a little silly looking when the game has mostly been in its own style, outside of a few joke characters like Twat.
>>344070050
What are you even going on about? A work of art is "consumerist" as long as it's made with the purpose of being sold to a consumer, your subjective thoughts on its quality are irrelevant.
>>344072078
Yeah that always bugged the hell out of me.
>>344072078
They're symbolizing the minds of whiny Trigger manchildren
Most people into games for their artistic integrity don't play past the entry level ones.
>>344072804
They were definitely chibi.
>>344072804
Look at the proportions, giant head, little body. That IS chibi.
Proper human proportions have humans be as tall as the height of the head times 8.
None of the CT sprites fulfil that.
i understood the story
it was just a bad story
>>344061538
Because the gameplay is boring dogshit that is a chore to play. Also the concept of 2 worlds never appealed to me like the various time periods of the first game.
>>344073348
Why not the 3DS version? Did they fuck up re-texturing or re-balancing the game or something?
Chrono Break when?
>>344074836
Nostalgianiggerism, nothing more.
>>344074836
It's ultimately subjective but the older game's textures compliments the tone and narrative of the game better.
In addition to that, you really shouldn't play remakes of games made by people who didn't make the original.
Plus, supposedly, some symbolism was lost in the transition.
>>344075003
That's just your opinion, man,but I doubt you even understood what the game was even about.
>>344075187
What Majora's Mask was about? A fucking moon about to crush the world and a little kid saving the village. SO DEEP.
>>344075469
Yeah and Ulysses was just some dude's LSD trip.
>>344073348
Where would Ico or SotC stand?
>>344075187
I'm curious. What symbolism? I only played the original.
>>344062841
But art can also be consumerist... See: film industry or an Andy Warhol gallery.
>>344075469
You can oversimplify literally any "deep" film/novel/artistic medium.
For example of a popular one, American Psycho is just about a crazy murderer who happens to be rich.
>>344075606
I've personally never played Ico but I honestly don't know if SotC is entry level or not, because it's story is simplythe greatest love story ever toldbut the execution is unique and displays the power videogames have as an artistic medium.
>>344063195
>>basically the entire old cast dies horribly
>as far as we know based best girl Ayla survives a peaceful 65mil BC life fucking the entire tribe
>>344075542
Point
---------
Your head
>>344075784
>You can oversimplify literally any "deep" film/novel/artistic medium.
You too? How hard is it to miss obvious irony.
>>344074836
General theme and idea remains through the writing, but the tone is dampered by the 3ds's terrible sound system and shitty textures.
Some gameplay was improved but overall the N64 version is better to experience. 3DS is better to play casually
>>344075845
I think only Ayla and Frog live rest of their lives in peace.
Crono, Marle and Lucca die with Lucca getting implied furfag rape as a bonus, Magus lost his memory and Robo became a NASA PC.
an RPG is only as good as its battle theme which is why trigger is GOAT and cross is dogshit
because following a complex plot for double-digit hours while also having to take breaks for eating/sleeping/working AND having to keep track of gameplay elements as well actually is hard.
when you watch a movie you dedicate your brain only to that for somewhere around 2 hours and that's that. when you read a book you dedicate your brain only to that for longer but you can do it at your own pace and easily go back and read stuff again if you have trouble processing something.
playing a long game with a complex plot is like watching a 10+ hour movie while also playing chess against someone at the same time. you ARE going to miss shit, become uninsterested or just focus on one of the two things you're doing while thinking the other task is shit.
>>344075943
Articulate the point for us plebeians
>>344076730
I already did, in second half of the post you replied to.
>>344061538
Because people are entitled degenerates used to being spoonfed by their distraction of choice, to drown out the silence and awareness of their everyday lives.
Meaningful and interesting stories of any depth are not what people are after. Take the movie "Millennium Actress" for example. If this were a Hollywood production, or a more modern film, you'd find out what the key went to. You're the audience, so you're entitled to ultimately know everything, right? That's what you paid for. Wrong. You don't ever find out, and neither does she. Because it's not the fucking point.
It's all about the lowest common denominator. Do what I've done and begin to develop games. It's not worth trying to get people to unravel themselves and change things, you're going to have to do it yourself. What you desire is outside the average person's framework of value.
>>344076839
I don't get it. Either you're autistic, or retarded, for being unable to articulate an actual point.
>>344077581
Not getting something is actually a sign of autism, hello autist.
>>344077717
It's the exact opposite, you retard. The definition of autism is being unable to cope with social situations, and being unable to articulate a point is one of the biggest key components to autism.
Being unable to receive a point is impossible unless you're deaf, because you can oversimplify absolutely anything.
>>344071420
Yes and I was explain that Dalton is technically a bigger villain than Lavos because Lavos isn't a villain
>>344078096
>2012
>Being made of lava
>>344074930
If Kato isn't involved I wouldn't even bother
>>344063195
>Most people are infantile and don't want story where they face consequences, most people just want to have cliche happy ends with their character's powerlevels reaching god levels or shit like that
Fucking this.
I'm fine with people not liking the plot for legitimate reasons (such as how 80% of it is shat out at the end of the game), but every thread people say they hate it because it undermines what you did in Trigger.
All it does is show potential consequences of what you did. Why does everyone hate that so much?
Imo, the music is 10/10, the story is solid, and it has some great atmosphere. Oddly enough, my least favorite part was the gameplay, but that's what everyone always praises, aside from the soundtrack.I still think I like Trigger more overall, but it's really close.
>>344076724
So you've never read a booth that's longer than 50 pages?
>>344078610
>Why does everyone hate that so much?
Because as I said earlier, people are infantile, majority of modern gamers especially. Gamers are for the most part in it for escapism, so they don't want anything that would remind them of bad shit or worse yet, real world or consequences.
>cross autismos telling me NO U DONT UNDERSTAND
>THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES TO WHAT YOU DID!
>(forget the consequence of doing nothing would be the same as killing Earth)
>>344078610
>Why does everyone hate that so much?
"I thought I wuz doing gud things but it was relly kinda also bad tings!!!!"
It too closely approximates the real world, where things are multifaceted, have a degree of nuance, and are rarely so black and white straightforward. They don't want to deal with the notion of perspective, much less its limitations.
>>344079083
The consequences in Cross are not consequences of killing Lavos, they are the consequence of your OTHER actions.
>>344079083
>killing Earth
except that the earth and humanity do survive, and given time they would have adapted and evolved to their new environment.
>>344079395
Not to mention that Earth would inevitably re-grow if given time.
Lavos simply unleashed equivalent of a supervolcano explosion.
