How do we save the RTS genre?
Warcraft 4
>>344028536
I wish. Hopefully within next few years.
>>344028814
I hope not, actiblizz will ruin warcraft
>>344029065
LotV has been good (apparently) and the upcoming ladder changes are promising, but it's too little too late. All they need to do is start on the right foot.
>>344028536
fuck no.
>>344028536
You have to let it go, Anon.
>>344029185
true the ladder changes are good but the story is absolute shit, they completely butchered all of the characters from sc1
We don't. Let it die already, it earned the right to rest in peace.
>>344028536
With Metzen in charge of the story? No,I prefer my RTS without archangel mary sues.
>>344029958
>rts campaign
>in 2016
I mean: COME.ON.
shattered galaxy 2 when
>>344029958
aw shit I forgot about metzen
>>344029185
They will never fix the console UI in sc2, feelsbadman.
>>344028450
Total Annihilation Remastered
>>344028536
>blizz
>2016
Also how can they possibly improve from WC3 lol
RTS doesn't need saving. You kids will overreact about anything.
>remove perks
>weaken each unit
>slow down gameplay, no fast forward
>bring back expensive and weak units, that can destroy buildings by infiltrating them
>make good base building a requirement
>>344031732
Planetary Annihilation is not that bad desu
>DoW 3 gameplay footage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Wn7YUGaWI
>tfw you were getting pretty good at HoTS, but then LotV came out and all your build orders were wrong, and the new units are super micro intensive
>>344028536
We have the technology, the circle of life technologyBut Dota 2 editor has some limits, so it can't be a custom game inside Dota 2
>>344032284
>Flipping in terminator armor
>>344032284
Apart from the awful graphics and fuckawful anime animation, what's wrong with the gameplay?
>yfw it's the first mission and it already has base building and chaotic battle.
>how can we save a genere that evolved already into MOBA
gee OP, I don't know
>>344028450
You don't. You accept that MOBAs are the logical progression of the genre and the passing of an era.
>>344032284
Already selling heroe units like the dlc commanders from CoH2
No no no no, also why are the graphics so fucking bad?
>>344034298
Well apart from the fact that it seems as balanced as your grandmother on rollerblades, and apart from the fact that the units seem to move and respond to commands like in a fucking MOBA without any inertia, nothing, you're right.
I guess that coordinated plasma firing at the exact same second is a huge prerequisite for being a space marine.
I really can't wait to play a cheap Starcraft 2 all over again !
>>344034673
Fuck you, your 12 years old logic and your MOBAs.
>>344028450
Age of Empires 4
>Westwood revival when?
>>344035986
my granny is a pro blader
try again bud
World in Conflict 2. But it'll never happen. It's already been 9 years...
>>344028450
RTS was a niche and most likely will stay a niche. But what it's missing are fun entry level games. CnC for example was game everyone could enjoy, with enough depth to expand and a fun sp campaign. Nowadays it seems you need to be hardcore invested because there're only mp focused games with a steep learning curve - which is ok, but should not exist exclusively.
The tactic shooter or stealth sub genre for example seems to keep up as a niche, because there're simple cover based shooters or games like ass creed which allow a broader audience to get in contact with the genre.
Also: marketing.
Cossacks 3 soon at least
>>344028536
they'd ruin it
Is there an rts where the whole game plays like those Starcraft missions where you only have a set amount of troops and can't make anymore, unless you find them?
>>344037024
>RTS was a niche and most likely will stay a niche.
What's your definition of "niche" anon. WC3 and SC2 both went well north of 5-6 million each. No, that's not utterly at the top of the biggest FPS but come the fuck on, that's a pretty weird definition of "niche". Even much more hardcore, more out there RTS like Supreme Commander hit over 1.5 million units. Usually when people talk "niche" they're talking a few hundred k at best.
>But what it's missing are fun entry level games. CnC for example was game everyone could enjoy, with enough depth to expand and a fun sp campaign. Nowadays it seems you need to be hardcore invested because there're only mp focused games with a steep learning curve - which is ok, but should not exist exclusively.
Well fucking said. Pure MP is definitely a cancer. Even Blizzard themselves said that literally 50% of SC2:WoL buyers never even went on battlenet even once. They played for the SP and that's it. But lots of them enjoyed watching others. And of the remaining 50%, many were in no way competitive, but enjoyed coop and the like. That's how competitive MP happens though, people have an entry ramp, and the some fraction become interested in moving up.
It's so fucking stupid how many devs no completely blow off SP. I guess it does cost more money and time to make well, but it's shooting themselves in the foot longer term.
>>344038842
Myth I&II, Starship Troopers: Terran Ascendancy, Ground Control I and to an extent II and World in Conflict, DoW II, Warhammer: Mark of Chaos.
I'm sure there's more. Can't think of anything more recent, though.
>>344028450
DoW3 is coming
Halo Wars 2 is coming
I'm pretty sure some other RTS games are in development as well.
Problem is, when people say "how do we save RTS", people usually mean "how do we save StarCraft"
>be shit at rts games but like the genre
>red alert 3 was my favorite
>love me some bot matches
>easy was too easy
>medium was too hard
Base management and steamrolling is fun.
>>344028450
Delete it's fans.
>>344039708
Thanks man.
>>344028536
this is a thread on on how to save the RTS not kill it
>>344037024
The reason sub genres like stealth games actually prosper is that the stealth community actually support developers and don't shit on them when the game isn't 10/10.
>>344040748
When was the last time the RTS community got a game that was even 6/10?
>>344042019
See, this anon here thinks all rts games released in the last few years are all sub 6. Why should any developer cater to your needs when you will just shit on them.
>>344042415
>strawmen
I was completely serious about wanting examples, I haven't followed RTS closely for a while now. You're the one blindly asserting that there have been good modern RTS releases and that the market is just stupid or something. I'm familiar with RTS up through 2010 or so, and have lots of favorites. I'm asking you what ones in the last 3-4 years you think match up to SupCom, or WC3, or Red Alert 2 or Tiberian Sun or whatever. Or even Generals, which was enjoyable enough even if it wasn't really "C&C". Something with a decent to great single player campaign and reasonably fun MP, some ok custom map support. At least some ability for players to mod it a bit is a bonus but not required to me at all.
>Why should any developer cater to your needs
That's kind of how capitalism works. "Catering to your customer's needs" is how business make money anon. You're being awfully defensive here.
>>344039460
I think that the most limiting thing in making a good single player for an rts is that it's pretty much impossible to write an ai that can actually play the game. That means most things need to be scripted and/or making the rules applying to the player and computer really asymmetric.
this one is great though and still alive
>>344043154
So you mean that those games are all 6/10 too you? Exactly which is why you barely get any games anymore and Blizzard is the only one that can really spend millions.
>>344037024
>RTS was a niche and most likely will stay a niche.
I think this is bait. Before League of Legends was popular, Koreans used to pack themselves into stadiums to watch SC1 games.
>>344043716
Not him, but you're a fucking retard.
Are you incapable of arguing without trying to put words in your opponent's mouth?
>>344044150
I asked him you autistic retard, you've ever had a conversation before?
>>344043487
>I think that the most limiting thing in making a good single player for an rts is that it's pretty much impossible to write an ai that can actually play the game.
No, not really. Frankly in terms of money (which is what management tends to care about) SP just plain has more asset costs. There usually needs to be some voice acting, at least some cutscene work (even if it's done in-engine, but quality games usually need at least some art, video, or cheap pre-rendered), and some basic level of story/lore. There does need to be scripting and thought put into each map, though less for the AI then to make it interesting and less random. None of this is THAT costly obviously, but it's a lot more on top of pure MP, so there temptation has clearly been not to bother, or to say "well we'll do that later".
That's not how humans work though when it comes to communities or sports.
>That means most things need to be scripted and/or making the rules applying to the player and computer really asymmetric.
The real challenge with AI actually tends to be less making it good (particularly with modern deep learning) and more making it TOO good. Or in other words, the challenge is making it "fun", making it "smart" and "stupid" in the right ways such that it provides the right level of challenge.
For a SP campaign though it really doesn't take much, which is why RTS have been handling it fine since the very start. Everyone knows that if you actually want a super challenge you go to MP. AI only needs to be adequate enough that, when given significant starting advantages players have something to work against, and give it some scaling from newbies to good but not fantastic players.
>>344043716
What the actual fuck are you talking about. That was a list of excellent games but all pre-2010, you were asked for some examples of RTS that hit that level in the last 3-4 years.
Holy shit, if you hate RTS so much just say so instead of fagging up threads about a genre you don't even like. Congratulations, your shitposting has managed to genuinely bait me so good work I guess.
>>344028536
it will be a hit, since its blizzard, but i really don't want to see it. will be pretty much the same thing that happened to diablo 3
>>344044835
I don't hate rts games it's one of the best genres. But I hate the faggot community that refuses to buy any new games and just keeps playing their old games making the entire genre stagnate.
>>344045159
>ugh, why am I the only smart person in this community!
>>344045159
Fuck you. You still refuse to actually suggest what new games you think people should play instead. You were given a list of great older RTS that people still love to play, because they were great and have lasting value. But there is zero sign here or anywhere else that anyone would object to switching if a new one was BETTER. But if they aren't better and you want people to change just because "new" that's horseshit.
So put up or shut up: what "modern" (2012 or later) RTS do you think matches SupCom, or WC3, or RA2 or other old classics? Again:
>Something with a decent to great single player campaign and reasonably fun MP, some ok custom map support. At least some ability for players to mod it a bit is a bonus but not required to me at all.
In the 90s and early 00s it was reasonably common to have games that hit these points and improved on what came before in at least some aspects. This is not some autistic 10/10 list, this is a pretty basic easy-to-meet ask that all the old games people still love does meet. If some RTS blows all that away then great, but I'm asking for even a 7 or 8/10 that hits the mark.
>>344045159
Are there any good new RTS games though?
I'd much rather play WC3 than grey goo.
>>344045390
Yeah because that's clearly what I said. Once again, the community refuses to play any new games because they aren't 10/10 like the old games.
Hey how about giving this new developer a chance whos willing to try to make something to your standards
>no ima play age of Empires
>lol that game sucks
>>344046106
>nuh uh I'm not going to name any suggestions neener neener but it's everyone else's fault
Wow. Next time you want to know what the problem with RTS is look in the mirror.
>>344046106
>literally admits all the new games are total shit compared to what people are playing
>why won't you guys all switch from playing great games to shit games
>you're so mean to the poor devs expecting them to actually make good games again is unfair
You cant. There just isnt a playerbase. People prefer teams over solo play, people prefer short games over long games, people prefer map memorisation and training twitch skills over thinking up counters.
>>344046106
>>344045159
>>344044364
>>344043716
>>344042415
>>344040748
thanks for ruining the thread retardo
It will never come back.
RTS fans have all been poached by more specific genres. The fans who enjoyed base building are in city builders now. The fans who liked massive armies clashing are playing Total War. The guys who liked large-scale strategy are playing Paradox games. The fans who liked small, focused battles with abilities are playing MOBAs.
The audience for RTS has simply been split and catered to on a far more specific level than any RTS ever could.
I believe MOBA needs to get deeper and take more out of the RTS playbook until they're somewhere in the middle.ARTS would be a huge genre if struck directly in the middle, I think
>>344045787
Because any game I would list doesn't have even half the things you require of a game so it's moot attempting to make a list when I already know you're going to call them shit. And I've never said any new game matches those 10/10 games and that has been my entire point. You refuse to give any developer a chance to make a great game.
It took Blizzard 2 games to make Warcraft 3 and everytime they improved on the previous version
But just for the sake of it, I'm gonna list Kingdom. It's the developers first game. It's missing tons of the features you require but it's a good and fun game. It's not a 10/10 game but I want to support the developer for trying something and making something good and I'm interested at what they will make next.
>>344046792
>>344047092
I think you guys are making the common mistake of swapping cause and effect. The truth is that there simply haven't been any new RTS in a long time that reach, let alone exceed, the heights set when the genre was at its pinnacle. The hard truth is that games really are "art" in the literal sense, as in individualized baroque creations whose ultimately quality depends in large part on luck and individual skill and vision of those involved. It's perfectly possible if the mainstream moves away for a genre to just stop getting good new games.
That doesn't mean a good new game would do badly though, or that people wouldn't be interested. PA proved that there is still a solid base even. But in the mean time of course people will seek out alternatives.
I don't know why but I'd like a game that feels like WC2. It just has some kind of magic behind it. The bright, vivid colors and sprites. The music they still use in WoW. Fun but simplistic story.
>>344047493
>Kingdom
There must be more to it than just that - link the game, post a picture of it, a trailer maybe?
Fuck I miss playing red alert 2 on my parents shitty old computer. I put hundreds of hours in it beat all the campaigns tons of times, could take on a bunch of hard bots teamed on me. I thought I as hot shit til we got the internet and I tried some online matches. then some assholes crushed my soul with prism tank rushes online. I wasn't very good at all
15 years ago gaming wasnt so accessible.
the only people with gaming computers were those that take to deep, complex but rewarding games (read: RTS)
now, the vast majority of people playing games are doing it on an xbox and have 0 technical skill or desire to conquer things there were hard, complex, and rewarding.
not while kill streaks exist, that is.
>>344046475
>anything below 10 is shit
>>344048098
Stop memeing and respond >>344047817
>>344028450
Play rts games not made by blizzard, warcraft 2 was the last good blizzard game to date
>>344028450
Kill Overwatch & League of Legends
use a time machine and stop casuals from bitching to developers all the time about how starcraft is hard coz its the only game that required skill
and while you´re at it brainwash majority of nerds into not being insecure fucks who feel the need to play in Teams just to feel Accepted & Normie.
RTS died because public majority wanted to go full retard. That´s why casual games, mobile gaming and easy movie walking simulators/cinematic experiences are 2016core
>>344028450
But Dota 2 and League of Legends exist. It's already saved.
>>344047817
https://youtu.be/NeHPF5i6L2c
Like I've already said you're not going to like it.
>>344033684
Its like you want universe to be even more low tier in power level.
>come back to CoH1
>its almost dead, community is dead, all old pros went to COH2 and then stopped playing vidya entirely
>play CoH2
>worse than 1
>bit more community
>still its tiny
>uninstall COH1 and custom patch it to some old pre OF patches to load in some of the best replays from the pros during the golden era
>drink cheap liquor as I watch glorious plays
>cry myself to sleep under the shower
>>344048187
>2 is better than 3
2/10 bait
Is competitive Starcraft still a thing?
>>344048332
A 2-d sidescroller? Is this what passes for RTS now a days?
>>344048494
As dead as my grandma
>>344048578
hi grack
>>344047493
>Because any game I would list doesn't have even half the things you require of a game
OK, so that answers your question you dumb faggot. You are literally stating that all the new games you want people to play are bad compared to the old ones, and then bitching about people not playing them anyway. Choke a million cocks.
>And I've never said any new game matches those 10/10 games
They weren't 10/10, they all had major flaws. That's the nature of real games. SupCom in particular I can speak to, and there are plenty of things people would love to see improved if only source code was available or GPG had committed sudoku with the starcraft meme. It has basically zilch multithreading for example, so it completely drags when the unit counts get higher.
>You refuse to give any developer a chance to make a great game.
Holy fuck. Devs have every chance THEY ALWAYS DID: just make a great game, and then sell it! That's it! That's how the market always works. What are you saying, that we're supposed to hand over money and then hope that someday they make a good game? That's not how any of the games I listed came about. GPG just came out of nowhere and made SupCom and did well. In fact it's EASIER now not harder since everyone has more resources to work with.
>>344032284
my words fail me.
>>344048576
Already warned you. Told you it didn't even have half of your require. Told you he tried something different. And I'm glad he did because the game is fun.
from a casuals player's perspective LOTV has gone to shit , I miss the good days of late HOTS. Nerfing the maurauder and not getting an alternative. It is just so much more coin-flippy now. The beta was a lot of fun. I put close to 1500+ games into HOTS. Played like 30 games of LOTV and just decided it wasnt worth it.
>>344047808
there have been plenty of subpar RTS games in the past that had community. And it is not like the people who dont jump to new games are stuck playing the old game. They move on.
>>344048843
Because they lack your arbitrary requirements doesn't make the games bad.
>>344036087
While I don't exactly accept MOBA'S as a good replacement, I understand that the current video game climate would support a MOBA much more over an RTS
>>344048884
Sure. But you're in an RTS thread.
I wasn't even the original guy you were wailing at. I wanted to give you a chance to explain your position.
But now I don't even know why you're in this thread in the first place.
>>344048884
Isn't that basically one of those newground flash games?
>mfw I'm actually excited for Halo Wars 2
>>344029185
I really want to buy LotV, but for some reason I doubt I ever will.
>>344049184
And it's an RTS
>>344049009
>because they lack the simple basics that are universally considered to make good games and that everyone loved and paid money for doesn't mean they're bad
Actually it does. And therefore people will not pay money for them. Because they are not worth money, see how that works?
>>344049407
Didn't see much that would allure to that statement being true.
Shill it.
I can't get enough.
>>344049451
Same thing for you getting new games ;-)
>>344049798
Why would anyone invest money in games that are not fulfilling their needs? :^)
Gyle has blessed us with a fresh video lads.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2cvcRgpQ5Q
>>344049524
You do know what RTS stands for? The game has every trademark of the rts genre besides it being 2D side scrolling.
>>344049798
I'm happy with continuing to play my "old" ones though. That's exactly what you were throwing a bitchfest about, try to keep up kid. You can come back and play with us if you'd like or else enjoy your mediocrity :)
>>344049894
Can't hear you over all the new games you get to brag about.
>>344050052
That's not shilling it.
But sure let's get over in the technicalities, guess there's been a ton of RTS games coming out in recent years then, I especially liked The Witcher 3.
>>344050104
Then why are you in this thread? Sorry anon but I've played enough of Warcraft 3, 9 years should keep me going.
RTS will always be a thing while games follow the same basic genres that exist today but it will never again become mainstream. You can argue about the moral implications of rts never reaching true popularity again but lets be honest for a moment, do you honestly believe rts can actually become popular again?
>>344048332
>retro blurry pixel art 2D sidescroller
>RTS
>y-y-you g-guys only w-won't play it because i-it's new
>>344028536
Forget it. Not with Blizzard as it is.
They'd have to retcon WoW into an alternate dimension and then start it from where TFT ended. And even then it would probably be retellings of WoW and its expansions...
>>344029185
>LotV has been good (apparently)
But the story not. Multiplayer isn't everything to RTS games. Both Single Player Campaign and Multiplayer are equally important.
>>344050327
This is the RTS thread, not "modern "RTS" only"-thread.
>>344050336
No, the market is simply not the same. City Builders and MOBAs are enough for people. We'll never, ever get a proper, good RTS campaign again.
>>344050219
You too anon. ;-) I especially liked how you collected resources to train units or build buildings, or expanding your village. Fighting monsters with your units. All in real time, 10/10
>>344050327
Because we'd be happy to buy good new ones too. The old ones are all flawed in many, many ways, they're just better the what has come sense so far. There is no fundamental advantage to them though, if some dev ever decides to make one that's improved then we'll all buy it and switch, that's how markets work.
How could you possibly find this concept confusing? Oh right.
>>344050483
This isn't an RTS thread, it's an how do we save it.
>>344050052
So true, and Dark Cloud 2 was such a great RTS too!
Command and Conquer 4
>>344050587
I collected a lot of resources to increase my tech to fight stronger enemies, I also expanded my reign and influence by ridding areas of monsters.
My build order really gave me a tactical advantage. :^)
You still haven't done ANYTHING to explain what you actually do in that game, or how it's an RTS in the first place.
>>344050721
In any event, that game won't save RTS, you wanna know what saves the RTS genre? Making good RTS games.
Recent releases haven't held a candle to previous releases, and that's why it's in shambles now. Because there's no incentive to get new games, as they're not better - in many cases - they're worse.
>>344050604
Because you're never going to get that new 10/10 game because no one wants to spend money on a dying genre and it's fanbase. I mean you still only talk about Warcraft 3, Age of Empires 2 and the rest.
Why did they have to cancel generals 2? WHYYYYYYYYYYYY.
>>344051028
And as I've explained the new games never will be because the fanbase is to small to throw the amount of money required to make the game you require.
>>344051031
Or maybe people won't spend money on a piece of shit game.
The market is very simple - make a good game, and it will sell.
>>344051217
Because it got a lot of bad feedback and the probability of it becoming a commercial success was extremely low.
They could literally remake starcraft 1 with better graphics in 1080p with classic battle.net and the genre would explode again.
Let it die for the love if God and continue making good games like Total War and Wargame.
>>344051293
If they can't make good games, then good riddance. I wouldn't want a shit ton of bad games in exchange for a niché genre with few good games.
>>344051217
Because you hated it. No it's true, they got such a massive negative feedback that they just shut it down.
>>344051031
None of those were 10/10 games.
>no devs will ever make good games again
Well if that's your stance then yeah, fuck off. Nothing to talk about then. I think you're wrong though, and just as the space genre is getting a big revival after a long, long doldrums RTS' time will come again too. Sooner or later the right team will come along, do a great game, and it'll sell well. Then all the retards like you will be amazed that this could have possibly happened and there will be a gold rush.then it will die again for another decade or two.
>>344051363
You are either completely delusional or baiting.
>>344051316
What market? You haven't showed you exists since TFT.
>>344051502
Because the fanbase literally threw hundreds of millions at the developer.
>>344051730
Uber revived us, only to let us down massively.
I don't understand your point.
>>344051494
But I didn't anon...
>>344039963
Hard is easier than Medium. Try that.
>>344052095
But that game sucked balls since day 1. You just fell for a scam.
>>344052412
But the support was there.
>>344043625
Is FAF's coop campaign still broken?
>>344052478
Yes, for a scam. Someone mentioned supcom and you gave them money without thinking. Did you support a good game? No. Did you support a good developer? No.
You gave your support because they mentioned supcom.
>>344051730
Not that anon, but there is strong evidence.
- Only a tiny, fraction of a fraction of people are willing to crowdfund something. The vast, vast majority won't even hear about it, or will take a wait-and-see attitude (which makes sense). Yet Planetary Annihilation, a cartoony mp-focused limited RTS attempt in the TA-style, gathered 44k backers.
- FAF, a community operated competitive-mp focused hack of a 10 year old game still has a solid 10k players a month.
Frankly the burden is on you to prove that somehow the market has "moved on" rather then there just not being any good games to play right now. Millions of people found RTS a lot of fun in the past when they were great, and still enjoy old ones. Why would they not enjoy a great new one? What's changed?
You sound 100% identical to every single armchair sociologist pontificating about previous "dead genres" like space games. "Oh, there's no interest anymore" you'd say, right up until someone made something that actually looked promising and oh, it turns out there was plenty of interest.
Is Grey Goo any good? I heard about it on here for a while but I've not been able to play it due to toaster PC.
Because they were shit, we have better replacements like Wargame and Total War, the community doesn't support RTS games, and they all play the same.
>>344052791
What the fuck are you even trying to argue now. You asked about whether there was support for a dev trying to make a good new game, and there was. People actually put real money even on a CHANCE at a good new game. So what, are you arguing that if it had actually BEEN a good new game it suddenly would have done badly?
>>344053017
weak bait
>>344052791
You keep calling it a scam, but it doesn't change the fact that the support was there.
You tell of a abandoned market, with no interest from the masses, but yet it was there.
Uber promised a lot of shit, and was supported heavily - only to screw the community over because they either were too incompetent or formulated themselves poorly in their promises.
My guess is they were incompetent, and that's what the whole "conversation" has been about so far.
Incompetent developers not getting their games sold is not evidence of a user-base that is dis-interested with RTS games.
>>344053024
Because it wasn't new. It was supposed to be like supcom.
>>344053264
So why didn't they just make a mod you massive slut?
Why make a new game from scratch with new mechanics and elements to play with?
You're either baiting or straight up retarded. I'm hoping for the former but I'm guessing it's the latter.
>>344053017
>the community doesn't support RTS games
Yes it does. Every good RTS has got lots of sales.
>>344035986
>retard spotted
they literally said that they both designed the mission for e3 and they depowered the eldar to show off the space marines, they did that for dow 2 as well. its the campaign on easy difficulty, basically. and they respond to commands like...wait a second....dawn of war 1, the better game in the series. I really cant wait to play a better dawn of war 1. fuck dow 2 and its shitty community.
>>344053253
The support was there because the fans wanted a new supcom.
>>344037024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aw-42JO3qk
10k+ koreans watching starcraft 1 in 2010
WE do nothing, we are not devs.
And RTS was dead long before SC2 came out.
>>344053378
Because you people wouldn't pay a cent for a mod.
>>344052791
>PA
>scam
>ebin maymays
Yeah, you're just a genuine fucking retard or child.
>>344053378
Nah, no sign he's baiting. Best case is he's underageb& and somewhat stupid, but probably he's just plain full retarded.
Ashes of the Singularity
Support Stardock guys... they're our only hope.
>>344053530
Keep telling yourself that, makes it easier on your ego and takes away from the fact that you've ousted yourself as a massive retard.
>>344028450
Id buy starcraft 3 if thats you asking blizzard.
>>344029495
>but the story is absolute shit
And?
>>344050426
>Multiplayer isn't everything to RTS games. Both Single Player Campaign and Multiplayer are equally important.
Bullshit. Single player sustains a game for maybe a year at best. Multiplayer is what sustains it for 10 or more. Saying they're equally important is idiotic.
>>344053693
Shut the fuck up.
It is bland as fuck.
>>344053707
Whatever makes you sleep at night anon.
>>344052954
It's good but I think multiplayer is dead
>>344032284
PLEASE DEVS IF YOU ARE LISTENING
REMOVE HERO UNITS
I WANT A POWER TRIP
I WANT TO COMMAND ARMIES
~WE WILL BUILD CITY'S IN A DAY~
~MEN WOULD COWER AT THE SIGHT.~
~WE WILL BUILD TOWERS TO THE HEAVENS~
~MAN WAS NOT BUILT FOR SUCH A HEIGHT~
~WE WILL BE HEROES~
~WE WILL BUILD HEROES~
>>344053789
>Bullshit.
No, objective reality. Blizzard themselves flat out stated that literally 50% of people who bought Starcraft 2 never even did MP even once. Of the remaining 50% most played a few months at most. You are living in a fucking bubble. Blizzard and other devs never spent huge amounts of money developing single player campaigns out of the kindness of their hearts, they did it because it's key for sales.
And again, this is a universal trait of humanity, which you'd know if you ever stepped outside. ALL sports work this way, like a pyramid. At the bottom are total non-competitive casuals, who also make up the bulk. A fraction of them will become serious amateurs. A fraction of that fraction will be good enough to go pro. A fraction of that fraction of that fraction will actually reach top levels.
But it's the huge base that lets the tiny percentages get into it, and that provides support in terms of money. You can't just say "well let's skip all that and magically go right to a full competitive tier" it has never worked like that, not in vidya and not anywhere else either.
It's actually kind of interesting to see how the minds of people like you work in real time, not that it's any surprise you're over represented on /v/.
>>344054387
You the dev-anon or just posting his webm's?
>>344054527
>You can't just say "well let's skip all that and magically go right to a full competitive tier" it has never worked like that
Mahvel.
>>344052954
meh. thats what it is. if you're looking for an rts to play, do it, but if you want a real solid experience, look elsewhere.
>>344050426
the story will turn off a lot of people if its really bad but ultimately, who will stay? how many people do you think plays sup com's campaign, and look at how popular that game still is. very few play sc1's campaign these days as well, I havent heard anyone talk about it outside of rose tinted glasses. while I wish that they tried at all with sc2's story, the campaign setpieces were good, and the gameplay was ultimately good, and most people will only play the story once. no one cares about games with good singleplayers and shit multiplayers these days, which is why games like doom have already faded from peoples eyes.
>>344054374
>remove hero units
>what is dow 1 hero units
>what is dow 2 hero units
The demand for it has to grow and there have to be competent devs willing to take the chance to make ones that will draw in more interest in the genre. Preferably a variety of competitive andcasualones with interesting singleplayer and multiplayer.
>>344054527
I don't know why Blizzard emphasized ladder so much in SC2. Even in SC1 I remember that by far the most popular maps were 2v2v2v2 Big Game Hunters and No Rush games
>>344054558
I'm the dev.
>>344053789
>Saying they're equally important is idiotic.
Yeah that's true. Because single player is more important the multi.
>Multiplayer is what sustains it for 10 or more.
No, MP helps, but SP is what brings in fresh blood and makes a game still worth playing ages later. MP for Red Alert or C&C is long, long dead, yet people still find value in playing the game. MP in WC3 is a tiny shadow of its old glory, yet someone brand new can still jump in and have a blast, and maybe even get a few bros to try some LAN with at least.
Look at reality: what are all the RTSs that still have popularity? Ones that had SP or ones with none?
>>344053789
SP is what makes an RTS, it's what makes people stick to it, if the SP is amazing, if it has a great atmosphere people will stick to it and start playing MP in order to generate less repetitive content, esports are a meme, even the most unbalanced of games can become competitive if there's a thriving community that supports it's scene with tournaments.
>>344054916
Cool, how fares it?
Do post more webms.
>>344054963
>MP in WC3 is a tiny shadow of its old glory
It's still full lists of games being played 24/7. It's just all done through clans now.
Make Tiberian Sun 2
>>344054527
Blizzard actually knows its audience. The casuals that played for the "Blizzard quality" story (who will praise even WoW lore at every chance) are truly the base. This also explains why SC2 had the easiest RTS campaign I have ever witnessed, with a maximum difficulty so easy that I only had to reload a mission once (without using any saves either).
>>344054527
>not that it's any surprise you're over represented on /v/.
I'm underrepresented, considering how many people care so much about SP, story mode, and all that other shit on /v/. I want games to weed out the people that can't handle a competitive environment, if it were up to me every community would be like the FGC.
>>344028450
You can't, you let it die
you want to know what sustains a game? I wouldnt say its multiplayer, or singleplayer. its custom games and mods. modding is really what makes games last, if its a good game, they make it even better, and even bad games can turn out okay if they can be modded. custom patches once devs stop balancing the game. all those custom maps on wc3. however, multiplayer and singleplayer should both be cherished, the communities rarely overlap, but they should both be taken into consideration instead of thrown into the dirt. in games like age of empires, for example, multiplayer is king. but in ones like starcraft 1 or wc3, the campaign is great as well as the multiplayer, so its a perfect balance for everyone.
>>344055481
Nonexistent then?
>>344055185
They did anon. C&C3 exists.
>>344035986
>Well apart from the fact that it seems as balanced as your grandmother on rollerblades, and apart from the fact that the units seem to move and respond to commands like in a fucking MOBA without any inertia, nothing, you're right.
Actually, DotA does have interia to everything and it is a big part of balance.
WHat doesn't is the orginal Dawn of War which this game is clearly based on.
Seriously, you fuckwits have been cussing at the mere mention of DoW2 but now that you;ve got your wish youre starting to realize you were supporting a meme all along.
>We want DoW1!
>Relic uses DoW1 as huge inspiration
>Waaah, no cover, no move fire, no inetia, no squad AI,...
For fuck's sake just end yourselves.
>>344028450
>How do we save the RTS genre?
Hire me, give me two years,an experienced team of programmers and a few artists. I will save it no sweat.
>>344054838
>Even in SC1 I remember that by far the most popular maps were 2v2v2v2 Big Game Hunters and No Rush games
Yeah, and even that doesn't take into account all the LAN stuff people did.
>I don't know why Blizzard emphasized ladder so much in SC2.
Couple of things I think.
1. They wanted control. They thought if only they got the grubby fingers on the whole community, something like DOTA wouldn't happen again and they'd be able to monetize it and all that. They were too dumb to realize that this isn't how these things work, you can't just seize a fandom or naturally developed organic creativity like it's a resource to be dug out of the ground and put to work. It's something fragile that has to be supported and nurtured, and the reward is lots of extra sales of the foundation and future foundations (ie., expansions). Try to grip too hard and instead it just dies.
2. They made the cardinal mistake I mentioned and tried to "create an e-sport scene" like there was with Broodwar that they'd control and monetize. But the old one was an organic development rooted in simply lots and lots of people enjoying it. Blizzard tried to force the issue and MAKE more people get involved and "competitive" but again that's putting the cart before the horse.
Well, they weren't the first and won't be the last though.
>>344055718
C&C 3 doesn't feel like a Tiberian Sun sequel desu
>>344055609
No, small but extremely dedicated, and will push out anyone they see as not belonging or too much of a scrub that isn't willing to put in the work to get better, through the time-honored method of in your face trash talking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsJfLKtGlfw
The way groups with hobbies all used to be.
>>344055787
>We want DoW1!
Nobody-fucking-ever said they wanted dow1, people wanted dow2 to be like dow1 though, which means, keep all the dow2 improvements and make it way larger scale with more unit choices and base building.
>>344055824
>I'm an idea guy
>>344055481
>I want games to weed out the people that can't handle a competitive environment, if it were up to me every community would be like the FGC.
>I want all devs to go bankrupt and nothing ambitious and new to get made
No :^)
>>344055047
I haven't worked on it for 3 months because I did a "study" here on what the game required for people to buy and after adding everything together I ended up with a 8 year time frame + 250-500k in potential debt if I wanted to make it at what the requirements said. And this thread just echos what I got last time. It's kinda sad dropping the project after 9 months of working on it and hoping tje community would be some what supportive.
But getting told my game HAD to have 3 races, had to have multiplayer, had to have an ost that rivaled something like Age of Empires 2, had to have fully fleshed out campagins, had to have good trading, had to have good Ai has to have good combat. Had to have a good story. Had to have modding. It wasn't like it would be cool if it had it all, but that was the baseline. And as single developer I felt that it was impossible at my 3 year timeframe I had set early on.
I'll save RTS!
>>344055047
Forgot a webm.
Esports, mostly.
Seriously most people I've known, who grow up on RTS games, played against AI or played campaigns.
Sadly, things that progressed the genre, like starcraft, also regressed the genre by its competitive growth. Massive focus on base APM requirements is not what draws in the big crowds.
Basically every firned I had in SC1 just played the casual MP maps at best. Big game hunters, custom maps, etc. Many of those same people tried SC2...and it flopped for them. They pushed muh ladder, despite that (even they admit) barely half the player base ever used it at all. That doesn't even include players who did a few games and stopped.
>>344055481
>>344055979
The important part of a fighter is the story. Most of us will boycott any fighter without a good story, so devs know what to focus on!
>>344056189
The combined assets of these two games would offer a vast amount of content. We could have both co-op story campaign with characters and risk style with base building. Classic MP and Last stand. Just offer as many choices to the player and the player can choose.
>>344056780
>Most of us will boycott any fighter without a good story
And /v/ is the worst authority to speak of when it comes to fighting games, so you saying that doesn't surprise me.
People like you wouldn't even use tools like SRK to figure out better ways to play.
>>344056469
>because I did a "study" here on what the game required for people to buy
>actually took /v/ seriously as representative of the buying public
>ACTUALLY THOUGHT /v/ WAS A GOOD SAMPLE SOURCE
Yeah probably a good idea you quit.
>>344056469
Look at the bright side, anon.
You'd never stand a chance anyway, but unlike so many before you, you'd realized that and moved on.
>>344056276
Do you wan't the RTS genre saved?
You either risk it with someone new or let the old farts run everything to the ground with the same old shit again and again trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator.
The problem is that the lowest common denominator doesn't play RTS games.
They play CS:GO and CoD.
>>344057053
pretty clear what we need is more sp-only fighters. no one cares about you nerds
>>344056469
>>344056615
So you went in just for the money or how am I to understand it?
I saw some earlier webm's that made it look like it was Banished with combat? Seemed like a refreshing take on the genre.
>>344057052
>The combined assets of these two games would offer a vast amount of content.
Those two games took up over a decade of constant work in total.
>LOL, just slam them together!
You people are more than delusional.
>>344057074
I didn't feel confident enough to ask around on other places since the game was so early on. And I've always liked the blunt criticism of /v/, well except for that day. And I've never liked the idea of working on a game without asking the community for feedback and ideas especially since it's so early on and easy to change and not waste 3 years developing something and then getting told it's bad.
>>344054527
>ASSFAGGOTS have no single player campaign for the most part
>on an individual level as in from game to game
>they have very little in the way of separating casuals from hardcore
>one of the most popular genres to come out
That would've been my argument until I realized that between league, dota, and HoS one could argue that the genre as a whole follows the trend you mentioned to a T.
>>344056189
dude, you know how many people wanted dow 1? the whole dow 1 community, especially UA players. people wanted basebuilding, they wanted big armies, a bigger scale, bigger maps, things that dow 3 is providing. however, you also have the dow 2 community, which is a complete opposite, which just wanted a larger dow 2, which is a pipe dream at best because the game was completely designed around cover. big vehicles already barely worked in the game, and putting even more would just make a mess. putting in some dow 2 features like the red resource, directional cover, leveling up, and an rpg campaign is all I can ask for and all I want from dow 2.
>>344057596
It's a tricky balance. A hard truth is that community-driven development very easily turns to to total shit, seriously. People are not equal, and most folks don't actually have a good idea of what they want or what would be popular (as you can see in this thread). Most people do not have the vision or drive to actual start their own businesses or do their own original creations. Now, you CAN use communities when it comes to balance, or to do extremely focused questions on specific A/B choices, but you have to be really cautious even then to avoid too-many-cooks syndrome. There's no easy way to avoid the risk of people not liking the final product, but your odds are better if you yourself make a clear focused plan, know what you want to do and how it'll compare to other games, and think it'll be great, and then just execute with minimal feedback.
In other words, just look at how most of your favorite games done by small teams or individuals were developed. Yes, AFTER 1.0 launch there is more room for community feedback on how to polish it and what features might be great next (though you'll still have sifting to do), but top games don't tend to be done by committee. Devs just do them, and then show them off afterwards.
This does mean significant capital expenditure though, but that's just how it goes. Sorry it's not easier, seriously.
>>344057314
Actually no. The entire point was that I would self fund it. But 8 years of my life coding, writing and making 3D models is to much. My plan for the game was to release it and keep working on it since I've got a job that can support me so I could work on the game and add more content/improve where needed. The 250-500k was just to hire someone to make the music and make the characters beacuse I'm not a good character artist. My inital idea was to have a single race and with music from YouTube composers as that would've made it affordable for me. But it would take me roughly 40 years to earn 500k.
Yes Banished but with more combat is a good way of saying what type it is.
>>344058421
Fuck music, it's just icing on the cake.
And multiple races doesn't even have to be more than a simple extra unit here and there.
Look at Warcraft 2 for instance, 2 races with the only real difference being the Ogre and Knight. Rest was just reskins of the same unit.
>>344058854
Not him but you're saying that now you've heard his reasoning.
Go look at how well does a game that dares not have 3 races at launch get received nowadays.
8-bit armies, for instance.
>>344028450
I'm playing total war
I'm playing company of heroes
I'm playing wargame
They aren't perfect but can be great
>>344057692
>That would've been my argument until I realized that between league, dota, and HoS one could argue that the genre as a whole follows the trend you mentioned to a T.
Well, as I said it's more an emergent effect of basics of human psychology and simple probability. Only a small fraction of humans have the right genes and psyche to be fantastically competitive in any sport/game/activity. And there's no magic way to just pick them out 10-20 years ahead of time. And they themselves can only reach that level if they can do it full time, but unless they're independently rich (even rarer) that'll only happen if lots and lots of other people care enough to chip in a bit.
Take those basics and the rest is pretty universal. You need to cast a very very wide net, which links up with developing a very broad base of general, casual interest. Then each level feeds and filters into the next level, until you get to those one-in-a-thousand or one-in-a-million people alongside a base of millions who might occasionally put some money (directly, or indirectly via supplying their eyeballs to advertising) into it.
It can still be MP based but even then it has to be casual, often coop or flexible MP at the most low level. And usually have some SP potential at least for practice. Again going IRL, sports like soccer or basketball or hockey or baseball or whatever are inherently multiplayer. Yet any random normal can pretty easily try these, or practice by themselves. It's common for casual friendly games to have "house rules" or barely any rules at all beyond "yeah that seems fun". But that's the foundation of billion dollar enterprises.
>>344059410
Or maybe it did poorly because it seems to be a C&C Clone with block-graphics.
>>344058421
>Bronze ore
>>344032284
Honestly, if they at least allow modding in this game it will be fine and the community will fix it
>>344059718
That's the whole point, anon.
Giving C&C fans a copy of their favorite game with modern interface.
The whole point is to be a shameless clone of C&C because there is no C&C.
>>344043832
>>344053570
Korea is an exception to the rule. I hope we can agree that Korea is vastly a different market then the general western markets. I mean having a Korean as opponent is a Meme.
>>344058369
Oh yeah I would never involve the community to have then help me, more like I if idea X or Y was good. I've never liked the idea of showing off a project at the last hour because there are so many times I've said that X or Y could've easily been improved and made the game way better.
>>344058854
That's kinda why I wanted to get some YouTube composers, get them to make or buy some soundtracks for a cheap and fair amount. I've already got a list with +40 songs that would fit the game in some way. And people weren't suggesting having 3 races, they demanded it. I even asked about having them as free dlc for later and they just said no.
>>344059813
Bronze is best ore.
>>344059984
Well welcome to game-creation 101.
You can't please everyone.
>>344060289
Welcome to business 101.
You can't make stuff that pleases absolutely no one.
What's the best rts of the last 5 years, /v/?
>>344060480
Wargame, easily.
Not like there exists any competition at all.
>>344060289
No but I at least wanted to please the RTS community. If I got just that, that would've made me happy as you've got quite the pull on 4chan.
>>344059984
Even then, never forget that in general when you try to do any sample or survey online more then average you're getting a very distorted sample due to self-selection bias. This is the same effect that in reviews tends to lead to lots of 5s and lots of 1s: MOST people are too busy with their lives to be arsed to spend even a second on things at all. If I get a product and just sort of thought "yeah, I guess it was fine" then I'm not going to go spend time on it normally. I buy some soap, it cleans and didn't have dead rat parts in it or anything and also didn't miraculously take 10 years off my body either, it's just soap. I'm not going to go back and even "rate" it. I'd only bother if it was an extreme, if I was so pissed off or it was so mind blowing it made me rave over it. Hence 1s and 5s (or sometimes 2s and 4s if people want to "seem more balanced").
I mean shit, here I am pumping out paragraphs on /v/ and putting actual thought into them and I'm anonymous and it's all ephemeral, what the fuck am I even doing? I happen to love RTS and once in a long while I get into a /v/ thread, but objectively I'm retarded. This is all going to go poof in an hour or less and change nothing. Most people would never ever post here at all let alone give you specifically feedback.
So yeah, always take it with a big big grain of salt. Or take it as a guide to what one extreme thinks, or what might be an avenue to consider. But don't take it as a guide to the mass market. You can't generally extrapolate to a population from a high non-random sample.
>>344060480
starcraft 2
>>344060702
The problem is the community.
Really, the only way you can make a fun and successful RTS game is by running as far away from the community as possible and make something new.
Look at the RTS games that still work and they all work because that rabble wouldn't even touch them.
>>344060702
>No but I at least wanted to please the RTS community
I'm not sure any single, non-genius-autistic dev could do that though. You're up against behemoths. That doesn't mean you couldn't have made your own community however. But I guess it's just something you can keep on the back burner or as an awesome portfolio piece, and who knows, maybe in 5 years you'll meet the right people or have the right bolt of inspiration or opportunity and get a chance to bring it back again and better then ever.
I appreciate the effort you put in anyway, it's more then most manage. As someone whose own personal programming projects have mostly burned out and highest general contributions to the world amount to a bunch of fixes for open source projects, I admire what you've shown and that you considered it at all.
>>344060942
Starcraft 2 is 6 years old, anon.
>>344060807
Don't worry anon I just wanted you guys to like my game. That's all. A comment like "looks good" was all I needed.
>>344028450
Short of the genocide of the last generation that want instant gratification and cant git gud it will never happen
virtual reality?
>>344060702
>>344061171
I'll add that one option you might consider if you wanted to keep a toe in the water would be to do something within an existing community like FAF. There's a lot of development work there and scenario potential and all that. You might even be able to spin some money out of it if you made a good enough custom scenario.
That may be nothing at all like what you wanted in terms of doing your own thing and really creating from scratch, just tossing it out there. A lot of pros get their start as amateurs doing mods and the like though.
>>344048332
LOVING EVERY LAUGH
>>344061429
Virtual reality only works with the 1st person RTS games and the community at large killed Sacrifice, Brutal Legend, Battlezone, Giants: Citizen Kabuto and others of their kind.
So no, nope.
>>344061741
what about an fps/rts hybrid like "out of ammo"
>>344051363
you would need to make 12+ troop selection, better unit queues, auto-gathering. And more like that
>>344063375
Same story. Rejected by almost everyone despite being quite fun.
Both Savage XR (yay for the new remake!) and Natural Selection are amazing fun but what worth is that when no one wants to play those games?
You're a commander of real people? NOT RTS!!!!!!1111!!!!
get the esports side out of blizzard's hands
>>344028536
Seeing how they ruined Starcraft 2, i dont wanna see Warcraft 4.
Bet they will make it into a trilogy, further ruining it
>relic is one of the few companies still making RTS
>microtransitions everywhere in COH2 and they will do so in DOW3
is this what dying feels like
>>344053570
2010 is 6 years ago.
Anyone here has any idea what happened to Servo?
It stood no chance, but still.
>>344055563
>games like age of empires, for example, multiplayer is king
sounds like you never aced history tests because of AOE
>>344028450
Bring back server lobbies
A good portion of players in SC and WC3 were found in custom games. Then they pulled the Arcade bullshit and effectively killed custom games forever
>>344032284
This is what the "muh basebuilding" "muh big battles" fags have wrought.
>>344055887
This. SC2 was a disgusting mess pushed by suits that just wanted to get their fingers on DOTAbux.
First of all the custom maps were all property of blizzard. Second popular maps were pushed to the top, rather than being just a random list of a bunch of hosts. They hoped to get a new dota by pushing popular maps aggressively. This smothered good but newer maps.
Then while the custom map scene never took off because of a non-equalitarian system they forced the competitive scene. Giving money to top players is a nice way to spark competition but when gooks refused to commit to SC2 over SC1 they shot SC1 down just to get SC2 up and running.
And dont get me started on the whole "buy a game in 3 parts, with every part being full price" and the genius "battlenet2.0 is required so you cant share your disk with your little brother to play lan together." Which basically was the way SC1 got so much traction in korea. An internet cafee could buy a single disk and let the whole damn place play against eachother locally.
Battle Realms remastered/sequel is all I want.
>>344056469
If you go for a 5 bucks bargain bin game 2 sides with some interesting but simple mechanics can sell pretty well. COH1 and 2 also started with just 2 factions. But good use of a-symmetric gameplay really helped out.
>>344028450
>saving RTS
It's dead you pathetic faggots. You need to move on and accept it. Might as well make a thread going "how do we save PLATO text games!?"
Not the autistic guy but Deserts of Kharak got released this year and it's pretty decent. It's at the very least 6/10.
>>344067059
And it's still quiet out there about Battle Realms 2...
>>344067184
>If you go for a 5 bucks bargain bin game 2 sides with some interesting but simple mechanics can sell pretty well.
>Bargain bin price
>For a masteriece like Red Alert 2 or CoH1
You don't get it, do you.
You're effectively saying you only need to draw Mona Lisa and sell it for a penny.
Sure sounds like idiocy to me but I dunno just how deluded fellow anons can be.
>>344066154
Once the initial shock wears off, the game doesn't look at all bad.
It's not a sequel to DoW2 but hey, it is still looking to be a pretty great DoW game.
>>344060228
you know bronze cant be ore right
>>344059674
>>
>I'm playing company of heroes
which one
