>Game's story tries real hard to be "deep"
>It's actually laughably shallow and full of flaws
name them.
All of them.
Undertale
Lisa
Pixelshit indie game #69
all of metal gear solid
Bioshit infinite
>>343917131
>>343917152
these the most
>>343916921
Spec Ops: The Line.
Not surprising, considering the series' pedigree.
>>343916921
Drakengard, Nier...
suikoden 2
mother 3
the biggest offenders
>>343916921
Metal Gear Solid series.
>>343916921
The Last Of Us
>>343916921
Bioshock infinite, undertale.
>>343917095
name another game that has the same core message as undertale
protip: you can't
>game isn't trying to be deep but it is a little weird so /v/ assumes it is trying to be deep and hates it
>>343917131
>implying Kojima didn't predict the future we are living
Literally every "deep" pixel game.
Even Hotline Miami
>>343917228
Nier is the opposite. It tries to be shallow (Nier ignores all explanations in favour of violence to get Yonah back) but has a massive backstory.
>>343916921
overwatch
>>343916921
Bioshock Infinite might be the only true, or perhaps truest, answer.
>>343917330
The story isn't deep nor is it full of flaws. Read the OP, it doesn't say 'games /v/ hates in order to fit in'.
Morrowindis not guilty of this
Planescape torment
As others mentioned, Metal Gear.
What should have just been a good mix of serious and corny, a la Escape from New York, became a cluster fuck that just went on forever.
Game I hate
>>343917247
>suikoden 2
Dude what? It's a story about two friends that try to end a war by different means.
The fuck are you on about?
>>343916921
Pong
>>343917647
Unironically, this has been a good thread so far.
>>343917691
Only honest post so far.
The only time video games have had great writing is in the short stories of Lost Odyssey and Planescape: Torment.
the average video game writing is somewhere around "young adult" section of a middle school library, aka kojimacore
>>343917758
Reply unintentional
Metal gear solid doesn't try to be deep. The story is just a huge mess.
Bioshock infinite on the other hand tries really hard with themes like muh slavery and dimensional travel but it falls completely flat.
>>343917152
Wrong.
It's a smart game, for smart gamers.
>>343917095
Lisa? Really? How does it try to be deep at all. A bleak and melancholy story isn't one trying to be deep.
>>343917049
first post best post
Okay guys now who can name a story of a game that's actually deep?
Hard mode for not being pretentious
>>343916921
>finite shock
The Wind Waker
>>343916921
metal gear
dark souls
any other meme game that /v/ cant shup up about
Spec Ops The Line
>>343917972
Nothing, every story ever created that has a lot of thought put into it is pretentious deepshit herp derp.
>>343917228
>two games where the protagonists actively don't give a shit about the story and it's implications
Those games are the polar opposite of trying to be deep
>>343916921
Dead island
Hotline Miami
Everything before the first credit reel is a bunch of medieval fantasy gibberish.
It gets pretty good after that though.
And Dark Arisen's story is pretty interesting.
>>343917896
It sure is anon.
Felt real good when I finally solved that bell puzzle in the lighthouse.
>>343917972
Pathologic.
>>343917247
what on earth even tries to be deep in suikoden 2?
Every single bit of the writing is blunt, even too much so at many points.
suikoden 2 did something no other jrpg has done though, which is treat 17 year old protagonists like actual teenagers. They clearly represent that they're terrified of the nature of war and way over their head, even having an option multiple times in the story to run away from it all, with one of those options letting you end the game mid plotline and live in the woods with your sister.
>>343917972
Xenogears and Saga are very good presentations on Gnosticism and Jung
>>343917131
Except that MGS and MGS 2 literally predicted where society would be over a decade before it happened.
So whose raffing now?
>>343917972
Bioshock
Ecco the Dolphin
>>343918169
I didn't think the story was trying to be deep. I think it was trying to be cool.
>>343917131
What I loved about MGS is that the story doesnt take itself too seriously though.
>>343917421
that game had a message?
>>343918004
I don't think anyone has ever called Wind Waker a deep story ever but ok
>>343918294
>So whose raffing now?
The La-li-lu-lei-lo
>>343917972
The first Hotline Miami.
>>343917972
Kotor 2
It was only Borderline pretentious.
>>343917869
>short stories in Lost Odyssey
Only time I've ever been emotional in a video game. Shame that was a completely different writer than the actual plot.
>>343917095
>undertale
correct
>Lisa
not correct. Lisa's story maybe be bad, but it definetely does not try to be deep. Learn to differentiate.
>>343916921
The Last of Us
>>343917972
The Void
SOMA sort of
>>343918507
Was a good story, tried to front as deeper than it was.
>>343918494
>correct
Undertale wasn't trying to be deep at all. Shit was saturday morning shonen tier.
Literally the only redeeming qualities to come out of this game were the art style, the sound design and the porn it spawned.
>>343918379
yes
>>343918294
>my cuntjima shitty games did something that has been done to death in books and movies before
>its soo deep!
Fuck off you double nigger
>>343917972
Planescape: Torment
>>343917972
Deus Ex?
>>343918720
t. butthurt gamefaqs user
>>343918742
God, fuck Bioshock Infinite
Aside from the little bit of reference bullshit at the end there was literally no reason to call it a Bioshock game
>>343918004
wut
Plz explain how WW tries to be "deep"
>>343918294
>predicted
You realize that memetics have been studied since the last 80s, right? And that "echo chamber politics" are merely a dialectical extension of popular political science theory, right? Nothing MGS2 did was new or exciting, and only the highest tier of plebeian, the kind who goes around shopping ice9 as truth after playing 999, would think otherwise.
Of course you don't. Just end it, clown.
>>343916921
Literally every game David Cage has ever created.
>>343918916
The ocean is pretty deep if you ask me.
Pokémon silver
>>343918830
>somebody did it before
So? How does that counter the fact that the stuff brought up in MGS2 actually happened down the line?
>>343919019
Nah, dude. Pokemon lore is like Dark Souls lore - it's not presented up-front. You gotta look around and tie shit together on your own.
>>343917049
///////thread.
>>343918950
Since the 80's you say?
Hmmm.....
>>343918912
>powers
>guns
That's literally the bioshock recipe.
>>343918950
Again, how does the fact that it wasn't the first discredit the message of MGS2?
>>343917972
Legacy of Kain series
It's not pretentious, it's classy.
Pacman
>>343917421
>>>/tumblr/
>>343917972
>BETTER NOT USE THAT WHITE PHOSPHOROUS SOLDIER IT'S BAD
>enemies don't stop spawning and you can't continue the game until you do
>game rubs your face in the civilians you fried
>YOU FUCKING MONSTER YOU DID THIS FEEL LIKE A HERO YET give us awards please
>>343918293
lol
fucking retard
>>343916921
Braid
>>343919467
Nice counter-argument
>>343919175
>sword
>shield
that's literally the zelda recipe.
>>343918787
And what would that be?
>>343919281
>protip: you can't
thank you for proving this
>>343917972
>Games
>Deep story
It's like asking for fun and engaging gameplay from a CYOA book.
>>343916921
cause gamers are soooooo deep, right?
>>343917972
MGS2 despite what some people ITT want you to believe
>>343919435
In the end Walker understood Konrad's methods
The game flew over your head
>>343919502
I didn't think braid had a story, but I still really enjoyed the art and game.
Is there a word more overused than "pretentious"?
>>343919807
Yeah. "Literally."
>>343916921
Also Xenosaga
>>343917972
Minervas Den.
A half forgotten bioshock 2 dlc that is thousands of times more interesting and deep than BI
>>343919807
Cuck
>>343919578
"You should feel bad for liking RPGs."
>>343917131
beat me to it
also these
>>343917152
>>343919863
>>343919847
Fair enough, can't argue with that
>>343919684
The game tried to make me feel guilty over things I had no personal investment or choice in. If a game wants me to personally feel bad about something my character did I need some kind of input, it needs to be my mistake and not some shit out of my control the game forces on me to seem deep.
>>343919435
It fucking amazes me how many people completely missed the whole point of this game. Just enjoy some of the more nuanced details like how the executions change over time as well as the dialogue when you kill enemies for example.
>>343917972
jet set radio future
>>343919907
Also fair enough
>>343919863
I would challenge you to explain why you feel it was a shallow game but I doubt I will get a proper answer
>>343918916
>>343916921
Uncharted 4
>>343917972
Nights into Dreams
>>343919998
>The game tried to make me feel guilty
It didn't
>>343920008
I wouldn't care so much had retards everywhere hailed it as some kind of amazingly deep parody of modern shooters.
>>343920105
That seems like a plain statement to me.
>>343920040
>Religious imagery everywhere (towns randomly named after months in the Jewish calendar for no reason)
>Game isn't even finished
>Blatantly tries to cash in on Evangelion (which wasn't even good to begin with)
>Awkward dialogue
>>343917206
You can't blame the series for The Line. The name was bought up by some no names and instead of being a Spec Ops game they made that instead. Has about as much to do with the rest of the series as Sonic Adventure does with Gex 3.
>>343917152
Came here to post this, it's one of the worst cases of nonsense pretending to be deep I have seen, across any medium.
>>343920186
Then why did it sit there rubbing your face in the civilians you melted?
>>343919863
Idiot
>>343920278
Think about it dumbass.
>>343917972
Super Mario
>>343920040
That's pretty pretentious
The only way video game stories can be good is if they weave the gameplay into them and make the story justify and be built around the mechanics or if it's subverting common video game ideas.
It's the only thing video games stories have over movies and books. Everything else is either trash or entertaining schlock.
any game that isnt pixels
>>343920346
It was rubbing it all in Walker's face. This is the thing everybody misinterprets about the game. It's not to make YOU feel guilty, you weren't the one who could've walked away at any time, Walker was.
>>343919435
more like
>THIS GAME IS GENERIC AS FUCK, AND THE GAMEPLAY SUCKS, BUT ITS OK BECAUSE WE DID IT ON PURPOSE
>>343920597
Are you retarded
>>343917972
Silent Hill 2
>>343916921
any fable game
>>343917387
>>343917570
>>343917979
>Bioshock infinite
What a fucking blunder.
>>343917206
>>343918089
>>343919435
>spec ops getting shit on.
Nice
>>343917228
Drakengard maybe.
NieR is deep. With the New Game and Endings. And the final ending.
That's deep brah.
>>343920284
That's just you being ignorant and not knowing about Gnosticism
The whole game is basically a thesis on the subject, the Wave Existence, Freud, The Archtype, Deus, Anima and Animus...
It's a game set in the Gnostic belief and Jungian psychology.
Xenosaga even more so.
>>343917972
Talos principle
>>343917972
Silent Hill 2
>>343920619
>It's not to make YOU feel guilty
Then explain the part where you have the option of shooting into the air to clear a crowd instead of mowing them down which is what most people did because they didn't even know the first one was an option.
>>343920284
>Evangelion (which wasn't even good to begin with)
Enough with these low IQ scrubs fucking with my threads. Drone ass flowchart posts.
>>343917972
killer7
>>343920772
>That's just you being ignorant and not knowing about Gnosticism
Okay, please tell me how the Jewish calendar is significant within the context of the game.
How am I supposed to learn about Gnosticism if the Nag Hammadi isn't even completely intact? It makes no sense.
>>343918004
>WW was my first Zelda
The only explanation for anyone believing the retarded out of place crocodile tears of Ganondorf.
>>343916921
fahrenheit: indigo prophecy
>>343917095
How the fuck is Undertale in any way deep?
"Monsters aren't so bad" isn't deep in any way shape or form, and even in the genocide route, you turning into some evil guy by the end of it with some fourth wall breaking isn't deep.
There are plenty of reasons to hate Undertale that are legitimate (Not liking the artstyle, not liking the simplistic gameplay, not enjoying dad jokes, etc.), but ragging on it for being "deep" is idiotic.
>>343919578
If you kill your enemies, they win.
>>343920942
>Getting upset I insulted your favorite anime
Evangelion is arguably more devoid of depth than Xenogears is too. Anno even admitted the religious themes were just included to "look cool" and that was all there is to it.
>>343920974
That wasn't trying to be deep. The story just went completely retarded in the second half of the game.
>>343920940
Sounds like you're just an idiot then. Idiots hang out with other idiots, so it's no surprise you feel that "most people didn't even know it was an option"
>>343917972
999
>>343920940
what's to fucking explain? Being too stupid to figure something out isn't the game's fault and even then, how does it use the player as an agent to guilt trip them?
>>343921136
>>343921160
>game offers no freedom of choice until this one part
>people just assume from the rest of the game that you have no choice here as well
>hurr durr ur idiot
>>343919152
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics
Yep entered popular discourse in the 80's, we've been talking about it since the 70's. A game about it two decades later is not ground-breaking or revolutionary.
>>343919213
It discredits the idea that the game was deep or somehow standing on its own intellectual merit pretty plainly. It's just a retelling of ideas floating around a level of discourse slightly above your average undergrad freshman.
>>343917869
This.
>>343921081
That's nice you drone ass bitch. But that's not what the show is about. Get that scrub ass outta here.
>>343920117
See
>>343917586
I hate summer.
>>343921334
Rather than meming insults at me how about you actually present a sound argument?
>>343919664
this
>>343921278
>game offers no freedom of choice until this one part
What?
How to deal with McPherson, how to deal with Gould, who to execute at the gate (or not execute at all), how to deal with Riggs.
All of those were choices you had up until that point, what the fuck are you on about
>>343918172I liked the ending
>>343921297
So what you're saying is.. that MGS V really did answer the biggest question in MGS history..
I knew it
There isn't any game with a properly good story compared to books and film. But it has the advantage of being interactive, which can be enough to fool you into becoming so much more emotionally invested.
>>343921061
>>343921334
Your buzzworditis is 1 stage away from using "cuck" for every other word in a sentence.
>>343920952
The naming convention is in line with the other symbols used through the game. The story operates in the Gnostic logic, you got your Archons in Solaris, you got the Demiurge Deus, you got Sophia as the mother you got Krelian as Satan, you have the rebirth cycles, you have the goal of killing the Demiurge (which you accomplish by using the power of the Monado/Xenogears)....
It works and is a baseline presentation of Gnosticism, it's not a be-all-end-all presentation but it's a nice introduction.
>>343921713
When the fuck does Halo ever try to be deep? It's a comedy action series with a tiny bit of drama here and there.
>>343917131
>HE LISTENED TO REDDIT AND TOOK THE STORY SERIOUSLY
JUST
>>343921452
Man this shit is whack. I already said the show has little to do with it's religious window dressing. It's clearly a character show with a heavy theme of trauma fucking people up in shitty situations. Basic bitch shit.
>>343921297
>It's just a retelling of ideas floating around
As does every work of fiction and non-fiction ever created. Nothing is created in a vacuum
>>343916921
Dark Souls
>>343921643
If you pay attention to MGS5, a large part of it can be successfully read, genuinely, as a message to fans about Kojima's professional status and history (especially true of Big Boss.)
I don't know if it's intentional, or if it arises as a function of the adage "write what you know," but he's a high school dropout who got selected as a project lead when someone else bailed. He's got talent, he makes good games, but he's certainly no god or grand intellectual. He's just a dude who got lucky (read: met opportunity with skill) and gets to make cool games.
Fallout 3
Mass Effect but there is a pretty steep fucking decline from 2 to 3
BoF Dragon Quarter
>>343917131
You know nothing you ignorant brat, this is the only game i know that explains the true meaning of love , soulmate and hierogamy
>>343922103
This is obvious and ignores the forest for the trees.
Ironic, because you're making a point about context. Derivative is a gradient from absurdist creativity to pure plagiarism. Clearly I'm making a point that we've trended further toward the latter, I'd say MGS lands somewhere above network television and somewhere below an undergrad short story. Maybe about young adult fiction? Definitely not something I would consider deep.
>>343921946
That excuse only works for MGR anon
>>343916921
mass effect 2
>>343922575
I laughed all the way through mgs2 and 3 the story is just fun and so are the games
>>343922403
So you would ignore the techniques used in telling the story that are inherent to video-games as an interactive medium.
That alone sets it apart from being a pure derivative
>>343922805
I would argue that MGS doesn't engage the techniques specific to ludonarrative in any way that particularly advances the plot or the maxims, themes, or language contained therein beyond the most surface-level aesthetic conformance -- i.e. they talk about bullets and you shoot things.
>>343917972Augh no nono nO
>>343923049
>i'm from /lit/ and i'm really smart here's some big words
please leave /v/ you pseudo-intellectual cunt
>>343922805
I think you missed the point of the post.
Not calling it purely derivative, it simply fails to reach the thread's threshold of what I consider to be deep. This is a qualitative ranking, so that's obviously going to vary between people. I think putting it somewhere between Tom Clancy and young adult fiction is pretty accurate.
>>343923327
>big words
>ludonarrative
>plot
>maxims
>themes
Did you graduate high school, or?
>>343923049
So you never played the game?
>>343916921
bioshock infinite
>>343916921
>>343923049
>they talk about bullets and you shoot things.
lel try actually playing the games you are talking about.
>>343923392
I've played every MGS aside from Ghost Babel.
I'll critique Hideo every chance I get, but at the end of the day, who else is there?
>>343920278
He was referring to tetra's farts. Dumbass.
>>343923484
That's as deep as the ludonarrative goes, though.
Try saying something substantial with your next post.
>>343923525
Dude, you gotta play Ghost Babel, it's the best 2D Metal Gear
>>343923668
Alright, it's on the backlog anon. Thanks for the rec.
>>343923380
You are ignoring the story telling techniques used and just focusing on the naked script
>>343923380
you're a pretentious fuck no matter the length of the words
>>343916921
Descendant
>>343916921
EVERY JAPANESE GAME
>>343923932
And you're still engaging in base ad hominem without making any substantial contribution to the discussion whatsoever.
>>343923793
I don't think so. Which storytelling techniques are you referring to?
I wanted to like it, but I dropped it after sandnigger town.
>>343918494
>>343918494
>Undertale
How to spot someone that didn't even play the game, please shut up about deep in the future you bottom of the barrel plebs
>>343918882
t.butthurt casual pleb pretending to be hardcore
Fuck off from this site you cancerous underage
>>343924040
>I don't think so. Which storytelling techniques are you referring to?
Raiden fakout, entirety of Arsenal Gear, La-li-lu-lei-lou, just to name a few
all games except soma, pathologic and maybe bioshock 1
>>343924040
ok here you go mate
you're a applying writting techniques to what is really a movie with relevant gameplay attached to it
you are ignoring the fact that mgs uses cinema techniques and gameplay to tell it's story instead of relying on a solid script
the script itself is 80s action movie tier and purposely so
basically stop being a /lit/fag
>>343924306
So you're talking about plot twists and misdirection? How are those unique to ludonarrative? You'll find the same thing in any young adult fiction or Tom Clancy novel.
Thanks for trying to defend your position, btw. Lots of MGS fans in here giving us a bad name.
>>343917247
>mother 3
>not deep to any capacity
I would argue why I feel this way but I'm not sure if you're here. All I will say though that although flawed mother 3's themes and concepts are still very important and never feel too forced.
>>343917049
Go to bed, beewah
>>343924461
I'm not ignoring any of that. I simply argue that it exists in an independent intellectual space without contributing much to the depth of the game. What do you think it is about the "cinema techniques" (which techniques) that makes the game deep?
>>343924440
>Soma
WEW
E
W
>>343917131
MGS and MGS 2 are extremely poignant and thought provoking games. Saying otherwise is contrarian.
Why is it when Japan makes a deep pixelated freeware game, it becomes well-lauded as a classic and is remembered for years on end (i.e. La Mulana, Cave Story, Yume Nikki) but when the west does it it's always shitty platforming and DEEP QUOTES AND CAPITALISM IS SHIT I'M A WOMAN INSIDE DAD STOP CALLING ME JACOB whining?
>>343924598
>soma
>pretentious
>>343924594
I said it's 80s action movie tier it's not deep story wise but the mechanics which make up the bulk of the game do have a lot of depth to them
>>343924660
Excuse my ignorance but wasn't la mulana by burgers?
>>343924819
I don't think that was the spirit of the question OP asked, but I will grant that there is a ton of mechanical complexity in the MGS series in comparison to the medium as a whole.
>>343924842
Initially Japanese freeware.
Bioshock. Holy fuck the writing in that game
>>343920571
Agreed. "Cinematic" games will always be inferior to games like Deus Ex.
>>343923664
If you seriously think MGS2 would have worked as a movie or book and not a game then you did not fully understand the story. I am tired of explaining it to retards, it is very easy to understand
>>343917049
That's right, Jay!
>>343924660
The same reason everybody gives a 10/10 when Japan makes cinematic shit with no gameplay but when the west does it it's just another shitty AAA game.
>>343923049
Most of the dialogue is pretty much about what the player has to do and whats going to happen next.
I don't understand why this is a problem.
To me, MGS tends to throw in some concepts that shake up the meaning behind the actions you were going to do, and I don't think that adds depth or is intended to.
I do like the idea that for MGS2, the player, along with raiden, are being deceived with regards to the nature of the mission and its objectives.
that and the concept of the patriots
>>343925337
name one japanese cinematic experience that had a better reception than a western one
>>343924471
>So you're talking about plot twists and misdirection?
Again you are just judging the naked script and not how it was presented in the game.
Take for instance the moment the colonel tells you to turn off the PS2, you can't replicate that in any other form of media, because the player will actually question if this is part of the game or if it's actually the game suggesting you turn it off because of real technical reasons.
The Last of Us
>>343920940
I shot in the air because they were a bunch of people without guns and everything was already fucked
The whole point, I thought, of the WP scene wasn't to make the player feel bad because of something they were forced to do, but that walker ultimately breaks at that point.
He was basically out there to unfuck things and at that point he crossed the line and can't handle the guilt. I don't think its meant to be a "you suck" as much as Walker just going mad with guilt and frustration
while there is the "you could just walk away/stop playing", I always felt it was meant to be BS. Walker has nothing to walk away from, the situation is utterly fucked and its not like he has anywhere to go. Ultimately the ending, I'd say the good ending, is about just letting go of control in the end so that order can be restored
>>343925245
You aren't even responding to my argument. You know that, right?
It works uniquely as a game, how could you just slap that script on blank pages and hope it sells?
My argument is that the ludonarrative does not elevate the plot to any new intellectual territory or contribute meaningfully to the value of the themes and maxims.
>>343925391
It's not a problem, strictly speaking, it just doesn't elevate the level of the dialetectical process occurring about memes, political echo chambers, and recursive power allotment (the patriots.) Read the OP, we're talking strictly about story depth here. If you say things like "I don't think that adds depth or is intended to" then you're agreeing with me and I'm not sure why you're taking a stance opposite mine. Pure contrarianism?
>>343925580
I don't think so, you're making an assumption. When I talk about these things, I'm talking about the audiovisual presentation and the gameplay segments that lead up to them. What you've just given me *is* a great example of ludonarrative, but I fail to see how it advances the depth of the plot or contributes meaningfully to the complexity of the exploration of ideas taking place.
>>343921434
>I hate summer.
Me too. All these people meming like /v/ is any better after summer are grating my nerves.
>>343925465
Ico
>>343916921
MGS series
>>343924660
Any depth to Yume Nikki is purely of your own making. It's just imagery.
>>343925850
no I was agreeing with you, perhaps just viewing that its a work that reaches the level of depth it was coveting rather than one that is 2 deep 4 u
I dont even know if I'm disagreeing
>>343924471
The reason MGS 2 works as a game (and only as a game) is because our avatar, Jack/Raiden, is some wet behind the ears pseudo-soldier whose only real experience with combat comes from video games. He's experienced countless combat situations in his simulations like we have in our video games, but at the end of the day, none of that will make you (or I, or him, or anyone) a legendary hero.
The entire crux of the story is Kojima telling you not to try to live up to Solid Snake, but to instead be your own hero.And then of course he backpedaled in The Phantom Pain by saying everyone is Big Boss but we know that story is a mess so it's kind of a moot point anyway
>>343918324
Too bad the fanbase does
Bioshock Infinite is the "Bridge to Terabithia" of video games - not a deep story at all, just a beautiful story that affects you in the moment. I'm glad that Ben Levinstein dropped his political-communist pretense and just gave us a heart warming story about Snow White the time lord.
>>343926074
It's not really a problem with you. A bunch of people are posting ITT about the mechanical complexity of the game without establishing a clear link to the depth of the plot, betraying a blatant misunderstanding of the thread's purpose and my original argument.
>>343925892
try again
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-2/ico
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/the-last-of-us
>>343919213
It discredits what he said because kojima didn't predict a single fucking thing. He regurgitated what everyone already knew but since it has to do with politics fuck kojima memers think its somehow deep.
>>343916921
Bioshock Infinite
>>343918418
The first Hotline Miami doesn't make sense plot-wise half of the time without the second Hotline Miami
>>343926169
Everything past 2 made the point moot
>>343925850
>My argument is that the ludonarrative does not elevate the plot to any new intellectual territory or contribute meaningfully to the value of the themes and maxims.
So the fact that you are playing a game that was falsely advertised as being about Solid Snake but turned out to be about a girly boy and that Raiden is supposed to represent the player until the very end is meaningless? It has no intellectual value? The only pretentious thing here is you, anon.
>>343926043
True, to be fair YN has some of the greatest imagery ever seen in a "game".
Metal Gear Solid series is the correct answer, much of the rest of this thread lists games that weren't particularly attempting to be deep.
I would agree there's some legitimate depth to the Xenogears/Xenosaga games. It's the usual minor, Japs-geeking-out-over-Abrahamic-religion depth, but it's some depth.
>>343926267
>if it has a lower score than one game it has a lower score than every cinematic game
no
>>343926427
3 was a really good game and a neat little self contained story. It was safe, reasonably well-written, and packed an emotional punch, but lacked the depth and staying power of MGS 2's ending (which is becoming more and more accurate every single day).
>>343926169
>Works as a game and only as a game
Nobody has ever argued otherwise ITT. Thanks for your post though. Sincerely. While I've obviously heard the VR:real, hero;idol conflations before, I've never seen them pitched as the central concern of the ludonarrative. I'll have to do more thinking about that.
>>343917896
Wait a minute... that card.
>>343926431
What is the intellectual value of this bait-and-switch? How does it contribute meaningfully to the themes of the story? What does it say and, most importantly, why does this make MGS' ***plot*** deep?
Do your homework, anon.
>>343926697
Bunnyhop did a really good (yet lengthy) video of MGS 2 and it really made me respect the game a lot more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2YuPGYabw
>>343926631
>it has barely any cut scenes or set pieces
>it's a set piece
stop trying japs just make better games*
>>343926431
this is a ridiculous strawman dude
>>343926851
the bait and switch is central to the theme you mongoloid
>>343926935
>moving the goalpost to god knows where
last (You) you're getting from me buddy
>>343916921
>Rogue Galaxy
>Minecraft
>bioshock infinite
>>343927054
So, your argument is that... a twist that contributes to the central theme makes the game deep?
Also you still haven't done the legwork. I'm just giving you for granted, since you seem to need the help, that it's true that this bait-and-switch is more than a simple, trite plot device that *meaningfully* advances the many aforementioned themes of MGS.
DESU I'm not sure how you keep posting without getting made fun of by other MGS fans. You offer very little to this discussion.
