Is artificial difficulty real?
>>343735842
It's a shitty, forced, unfunny meme you dip
>>343735842
yes
>>343735842
It's artificial.
Yes. If the game features GAME MECHANICS but mastering them does not make the game easier/funner, then the game is broken. Like, say, level-scaling enemies in a really poorly done way or, horrifyingly, enemies simply having more HP, if you twiddle the difficulty knobs.
I mean, it's real, but the term is used a lot when it is not applicable.
>>343735842
>the city breaks down on the camel's back
>you die
WWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW
>>343735842
yeah see DaSII
Yes but 99% of the time /v/ mentions it is shitposting
Like say you're playing a platformer and there are two identical pits. One is instant death and one leads further into the level, with no way to tell which is which. That kind of shit is artificial difficulty. Enemies being HP sponges isn't artificial difficulty, it's just shit.
When you should be ten hours ahead of the racer behind you, but instead they just go hyperspeed until they're side-mirror deep into your back bumper.
FINALLY
>>343737020
>Enemies being HP sponges isn't artificial difficulty
But it is, if that's the only way you differentiate between normal and hard. Nothing has changed except that you have to do the same thing slightly more to win.
>>343736869
>enemies simply having more HP, if you twiddle the difficulty knobs.
So almost every game with difficulty settings is "artificially difficult". DMC4 is artificially difficult because enemies on DMD have more hp than enemies on human mode
>>343735842
kinda
artificial difficulty (as i understand it at least) refers to increasing a game's difficulty without increasing the challenge, as in nothing in the game or how you play it changes, but its made harder by just adding on difficulty to what's already there, usually in lazy ways
damage sponge enemies, long distances without checkpoints, cheating AI in RTS's; those are all artificial difficulty
its used wrong though by /v/ to refer to any form of difficulty change that has to do with amount/degree in damage, health, enemy amount, etc., when in some games it actually is in service to the mechanics, like how dark souls's gameplay wouldnt work as well as it does without the inflated gameplay (see lords of the fallen for an example of what reducing the damage taken does to how the game works for instance)
overall, its probably a word that doesnt need to exist
>>343737178
And that means you have more chances to fuck up. It's not well done but it does add to the difficulty in a way that isn't totally unfair.
>>343736925
lol
>>343737083
SOMEONE
>>343737231
I think that can depend on whether you as the player also have a capped health or damage dealing capacity. If not it just encourages item hoarding and grinding which aren't skills.
>>343737184
>>343737178
I'd like to ask when or if time limits are or are not artificial difficulty. Here is a fairly rare example of a real time limit being imposed on a turn based battle system.
Short answer, yes. But /v/ will bitch in wine about anything they find hard and call it "artificial". A good example of artificial difficulty is rubber banding in racing games. Where you could be an entire lap ahead of the bot in 2nd place and all of a sudden it catches up to you for no explainable reason
>>343737616
>I'd like to ask when or if time limits are or are not artificial difficulty
Why would they be? Jesus Christ this is the worst meme
>>343737616
>encourages grinding
Well yeah, you can blow past enemies in any game by grinding if it has a progression system, no matter what they do. On-level enemies are more difficult, and that's the point.
>>343737782
this
>>343735842
I don't think it really matters.
I game can be bullshit hard and still be fun just like a game can be bullshit hard and suffer for it.
I've played plenty of both. It's all about the final experience of it all.
>>343737865
the same way you can inflate an enemy's HP to make any scenario harder you can also add a timer to make any scenario harder
it doesnt challenge you to play better, it just punishes you for wasting time or messing up
so what happened to gorillaz
>>343738393
New album coming out next year. Cant wait to see grown up noodle
>>343738292
>it doesnt challenge you to play better
It literally does, it forces you to get through the section as quickly and efficiently as possible. Stop saying that everything you found hard is "artificially difficult"
> the same way you can inflate an enemy's HP
If your definition is " it doesnt challenge you to play better ", then this isn't artificial difficulty either. Play more games
I remember when it was just called the game being "cheap." It didn't have to be memes.
>>343735842
Artificial means "man made."
Everything within a game is man made.
So every form of challenge and difficulty in games are inherently artificial.
Typically the complaints I hear referred to as artificial difficulty would be better described as "arbitrary." Meaning meaningless in the way the eliminate players. I've never found an example of such difficulty, but I would imagine it to be entirely possible.
>>343738292
>it doesnt challenge you to play better, it just punishes you for wasting time or messing up
>it doesn't challenge you to play better, it just challenges you to play better
i just saw this while scrolling down the main page and i just came into this thread to tell you how retarded this sentence is.
>>343738575
maybe terrible controls?
Is there an actual definition for this shit? Is it just "things I perceive to be difficult in an unfair way"?
>>343738757
That would probably qualify. I play on PC though, so I remap everything to a way I feel comfortable with.
>>343738761
I always figured it was shit that makes the game harder but not necessarily more challenging, if you get what I'm saying. You know, like level mechanics where not knowing the layout is a gamble on your life, e.g. leaps of faith in platformers. Either that, or shit that's just tacked on as an afterthought to make a level harder, inflating enemy HP bars for no reason other than to make a level take longer or requiring excessive amounts of grinding to get through a game.
Good examples would be like I Wanna Be the Guy for platformers or the NES version of Hydlide for RPG's.
>>343738757
Also what about enemies and especially mandatory bosses in RPGs that are immune to magic/status effects or can only be damaged by non-physical attacks. If portions of a game require you to discard huge chunks of it's own mechanics in order to win/progress (even if they are the most efficient everywhere else) is that legitimate?
Psychic enemies in stealth games
When enemy automatically change their patrolling patterns to be closer to you even if they have never seen or heard you just because.
Newer splinter cell games were so guilty of this
>>343739298
>I always figured it was shit that makes the game harder but not necessarily
So then why is "more hp" always used as an example of artificial difficulty? How would more hp not make a game harder?
>>343738757
This.
I tried to play Alien Isolation on 360, but the movement is just so deliberately slow to make it "scarier". That's artificial tension to me, so I can't have fun playing it.
>>343739513
More challenging. You missed part of my sentence. Anyway, in the case of HP specifically, it's context-specific. Give an RPG boss more HP can mean the difference between whether you can slam down potions while hitting the boss or whether you have to think about what you're doing on every turn, within reason.
Making a stationary enemy in a Mega Man-style game with a predictable attack pattern take 50 shots instead of 15 to kill doesn't make it more challenging. It's harder, sure, because it's tougher to kill, but it's not like you have to do anything different to kill it. You just do the same, trivial thing for a longer period of time. A lot of games tack on difficulty modes that inflate all enemy HP by a percentage because it's really easy to program as opposed to reworking the levels and attack patterns accordingly, and does make the game harder, but not necessarily more fun or interesting.
>>343735842
Yes, it is real.
When you're first place and miles ahead in a racing game and your opponent rubber bands up to you, that's artificial difficulty. (GTAV, Driveclub).
When you're playing a FPS title and the enemies aren't harder, but just sponge damage, that's artificial difficulty. (Destiny, Call of Duty)
When you're playing a sports title and the other team's players are suddenly all Gods and your players don't even know what the sport is, that's artificial difficulty. (Every FIFA ever made)
When you're playing a stealth game and you kill one enemy, miles away from anyone, yet somehow everyone knows exactly where you are, where you're going, etc, that's artificial difficulty. (MGSV, most recently).
Horrible hit boxes and hit detection is also artificial difficulty (most Souls titles).
>>343739298
>I always figured it was shit that makes the game harder but not necessarily more challenging, if you get what I'm saying.
i do not. harder = more challenging. inflating enemy HP is only bad if it's excessive like in dying light where you can spend 5 minutes on one regular zombie in the beginning of the game.but even then you can argue that the challenge is in being smart enough to avoid fights and loot early on. if you have to fight you should have more than enough molotovs.
leaps of faith aren't really hard, they're just padding the lenght of a game.
>>343737402
LET ME OUT OF MY CAGE
TIME IS NOTHING FOR ME CUZ I'M COUNTING NO AGE
INTANGIBLE
>>343739513
Not him but
>Increase enemy HP
>enemy has the same attack patterns
>the fight is just now longer and makes little to no difference.
Increasing HP does technically make it harder, but in a very lazy and in a way that makes things not really fun per se.
>>343739964
Yes, but not as prevalent as some would think
Artificial difficulty basically means there's no actual difficulty involved. it completely blindsides you without any way for you to know what's coming, leaving it entirely to trial and error
>>343739902
>but not necessarily more fun or interesting.
challenging =/= fun and interesting. choose your buzzwords wisely.
>>343739938
Oh. Another
When you're playing a "survivial horror" game and in said game, certain weapons break, that's artificial difficulty. (Dying light, lol, lead pipe broke lad).
Literally the only good example in this thread is rubber banding in racing games
It's artificial in that you're not racing the other cars anymore, you're racing against the idea of cars on your tail
Another example would be like a madden game where the CPU team's players simply run faster than yours at high difficulty because the AI is not good enough to challenge the player in football strategy and execution
More HP in an RPG style game is just difficulty, nothing artificial about it, even if you'd rather the difficulty be ramped up in a different way
>>343737402
LET
>>343740142
>buzzwords
>shilling
>dfjlsdfag
I swear to god /v/ please stop this. Using words longer than four letters doesn't make you a slimy corporate fat cat.
>>343735842
Yes it does but not in the way /v/ likes using it.
Something like a target only having a 0.001 second window to shoot or you lose is artificial difficulty
>>343737020
When does this ever happen outside of Mario Maker?
>>343740032
BEY YOU DIDN'T THINK SO I COMMAND YOU TO PANORAMIC VIEW LOOK I MAKE IT ALL MANAGEABLE
>>343737191
>increasing a game's difficulty without increasing the challenge
>>343739938
>>343740160
so to you "challenging" really means "annoying"?
guys how do I beat the Melancholy Hill level this is bullshit
>>343740398
sorry i meant "artificial difficulty"
>>343735842
What did he mean by this?
>Objective: It's coming up
>>343736925
Underrated
>>343736925
kek
>>343740303
It's no platformer and it's an optional area, but I don't think the game ever tells you which hole you should jump in to get to pic related, other than the fact that it was in the swamp area.
>>343740412
Did you hear the message beep?
>>343740398
Having a player who can catch up to you, not by the use of skill, but the game allowing him to, is not challenging, it's artificial difficulty. Having a boss fight that hasn't changed, just that the boss now soaks up damage and it takes 3x as long isn't challenging, it's artificial difficulty. Having your team go to complete shit while playing someone in FIFA because EA wants them/the computer to score, isn't challenging, it's artificial difficulty. Artificial difficulty isn't too far off from annoying, though.
>>343735842
If there are game mechanics which legitimately favour the AI which do not apply to a human player, then yes, I'd say artificial difficulty exists.
Classic examples are fucking Mario Kart rubber-banding and Dawn of War where the computer controlled AI isn't bound by resource management.
>>343740250
are you dumb? can't you see how many people here through words around like "challenge" without even knowing what they mean?
just see this one for example >>343737191
>artificial difficulty (as i understand it at least) refers to increasing a game's difficulty without increasing the challenge,
>>343735842
Yes.
If you looked at the difficulty settings for a game:
True difficulty would mean that raising the difficulty make the enemy AI more intelligent. They use abilities more tactically, counter and attack more aggressively and are more likely to resort to devious underhanded tactics that you would expect a player to do.
Artificial difficulty means that raising the difficulty gives the enemies more HP and makes you take more damage.
>>343737184
If the only difference is that they have more health then, yes, that is "artificial difficulty".
But, if I'm remembering correctly, doesn't it also make them more aggressive/attack more relentlessly?
>>343740735
all of that is challenging. learn the meanings of your words. giving you a handicap is an additional challenge. an annoying one i know. but it forces you to adapt to a new situation and to play concentrated until the last second. it also punishes you more for making mistakes.
>>343740160
Yeah resource management is just artificial difficulty man they should just give us infinite ammo, artificially limiting my fun by limiting my ammo isn't CHALLENGING it's just BORING
>>343739513
Because it doesn't mean the player actually has to fight them better, just for longer.
It's like boosting enemy health on Skryim vs. Ninja Master on Ninja Gaiden which forces you to beat bosses and even weak enemies in a frame perfect fashion.
>>343740303
I'm pretty sure this was all of Rayman 1, since there were a ton of secrets at the bottom of some pits but not all of them.
just my two cents, artificial difficulty requires extra grinding and tedium to fight the boss in a similar way to lower difficulties (whether grinding levels or health potions/etc.) while well-handled difficulty challenges the player to play more skillfully or smartly
>>343740992
By your definition, the normal mode is "artificial" since the only difference between devil Hunter and human is that enemies have more hp and do more damage.
>>343740826
It was a weird choice of words, but he cleared it up after.
Making the game more difficult without the player having to learn new ways of doing things or improving in any way. If increasing the difficulty only increases the time it takes to win and changes nothing else, it's purely artificial.
Makes sense to me, at least.
>>343741120
>Because it doesn't mean the player actually has to fight them better, just for longer.
You're assuming that the player knows how to avoid 100% of damage easily
>>343741141
Oh yeah, and ducking didn't budge the camera downward much either.
>>343741339
Then yes, that is correct.
>>343738526
>>343741527
If you actually played DMC, you'd know that you would have to play differently if the enemies have more hp
>>343741295
that implies that the player knows the optimal strategy for every boss and can't improve his strategy to beat the boss without extra grinding.
Falling out of aeroplanes
And hiding out in holes
Waiting for the sunset to come
People going home
Jump out from behind them
And shoot them in the head
Now everybody's dancing
the dance of the dead
the dance of the dead
the dance of the dead
>>343735842
A game can definitely be hard for the wrong reasons, like awkward camera angles, bad AI, poorly distributed save points, unreliable controls, luck-based mechanics, and so on. I'm not sure artificial difficulty is the right name for it, though.
>>343740992
They get to use DT to do even more damage, so it's even more artificialler than you thought it was in fact
>>343741704
>junkrat and widowmaker literally have the same face
>>343741409
a longer fight with no changes otherwise allow for less mistakes and necessitates a longer time of concentration. you are implying that the player already knows the perfect strategy and the game doesn't allow for improvements to make the fight take just as long.
>achievement unlocked: Turn Forever, You and Me
Does the crazy input reading A.I in street fighter V counts as artificial?
>>343741760
it really should be "annoying difficulty".
>>343741661
K.
I think you're missing the point, friendo.
You're kinda 'sperging out about a single game in particular instead of looking at the bigger picture.
If what you say is true, then it might not qualify as artificial difficulty.
But that has no bearing on its existence in other games whatsoever.
>>343735842
yes
>kill boss
>they fill their HP bar completely and buff themselves
>have to fight them AGAIN with less estus because you beat their first phase by the skin of your teeth
>happens multiple times throughout the game
Artificial difficulty makes a game more challenging in ways which the player cannot reasonably account for without trial-and-error.
>Blind jumps which would otherwise kill the player if they miss the platform
>Enemy attacks which are too quick to react to and otherwise require the player to memorize their attack patterns to proceed
>No visual distinction between enemies or obstacles that otherwise are fundamentally different
>Enemy placement makes them impossible to attack or engage without getting hurt
I'm okay with games based on RNG mechanics if that much is made clear to the player, as at that point the game is more about knowing your odds of success and weighing your choices around that. I don't think that adjusting HP / Damage pools based on difficulty settings are inherently "artificial," though it's definitely an easy way out and not what people typically want from variance in difficulty.
>>343740379
>>343740826
difficulty is how hard something, that you already know how to do, is to accomplish, and challenge is adding onto what's already known with new tasks or information
for instance, adding a time limit to a turn based RPG is difficulty, but not challenge, because all it does is make you cycle through the menus doing what you were before, only faster, making you more prone to accident. challenge is adding a time limit to devil may cry 3 and 4's bloody palace, where the challenge comes from the fact that it can be extended by stylish play, creating a new twist on how to play the game if the player had only been playing mediocre up to that point
therefore, difficulty can exist without challenge, but the two are often found hand in hand (like with the DMC example). difficulty without challenge is artificial difficulty
>>343740980
POO
>>343742039
Or perhaps "unfair difficulty", since it usually applies to challenges that can't be reliably overcome by an increase in skill. Then again, some things under the umbrella of artificial difficulty are merely annoying, like inflated health bars and rare checkpoints. The two categories may need to be separated.
>>343742341
You're the one who's making the retarded blanket statement "ALL HP IS ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY" I'm just using an example to prove you wrong
>>343742719
I think you actually have a learning disability if you can't grasp that my point is more ever so slightly more complex than that.
Read it again, sparky.
>>343742407
They announced before release that each boss would have multiple phases, and the pattern is easy to pick up on after the first boss or two. Is it truly unfair if you're warned in advance? And anyway, isn't it a tradition of Dark Souls to learn the boss's mechanics through trial and error while fighting them?
>>343742426
>for instance, adding a time limit to a turn based RPG is difficulty, but not challenge, because all it does is make you cycle through the menus doing what you were before, only faster, making you more prone to accident.
no. making the same thing faster is still challenging. i feel like you're making up your own definition of words so it fits with your argument.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/challenging
interesting is subjective btw.
The only examples of real artificial difficulty I can think of are rubberbanding in racers and MAYBE level scaling in some games.
>>343742426
In Paper Jam's defense, the imposed time limit makes the player think about what attacks they should be using (namely, avoiding the Paper attacks and opting for moves with shorter attack animations). The game also grants the player more time by completely dodging King Bob-Omb's attacks, something the player has been taught to do the entire game, but in this instance it's even more dire for the player to dodge all of the attacks.
>>343742821
>They announced before release that each boss would have multiple phases
9 times out of then, this means that they change during the fight, not after you kill them. Bosses in Bloodborne had different phases during their fights, so there's no reason to do this stupid "fight the boss TWICE with no warning" shit. Make their second phase a half-HP scripted event. Don't fucking fool me after I already went through everything killing you because your HP reads fucking Z E R O.
>>343742821
>gundyr explodes into abyss jelly
neat
>vordt howls and emits chill particles
I'm seeing a pattern
>ballsack tree destroys the floor and grows an arm
I see
...
...
>soul of cinder regains HP and pulls some new moves
WHAT THE FUCK HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO PREDICT THIS? THE GAME IS FUCKING BULLSHIT DUDE WOOOOW
>>343742410
Personally, I'm fine with trial and error as long as it isn't constant. Die to a trap once, avoid it the next time, recognize that type of trap from then on- that's all good. What's bad is when it's the entire game, or when success is based more on luck than on skill and knowledge. The crucial part is that experience should make you better at the game.
>>343742818
> If the only difference is that they have more health then, yes, that is "artificial difficulty".
Damn dude that was deep af
>>343735842
>Launch DaS1 after blazing through Das2 SOTFS
>First area, easy boss, easy enemies
>Second area
>tower
>below me is a shadow that 1 shots me and backstabs deal him like 1/30 of his hp
>above me is a giant fucking boss on The Trump's Wall™ and i have no place to maneuver
>he also 1 shots me
That's when i deleted and refunded this shit. It had problems running on 60fps and other things anyway.
>>343743236
You are incapable of following any point more than one sentence long. It's okay. Your secret is safe with me.
>>343743323
Your games analysis is too deep for me to comprehend
>>343743135
>Die to a trap once, avoid it the next time, recognize that type of trap from then on- that's all good.
I'm good with that as well, since at that point you're learning the game's mechanics and of what dangers to expect. It's a problem if the trap is entirely invisible to the player, since there's no way a player could detect the trap prior to setting it off, but even making the trap a slightly different shade of color will reward more perceptive players who, at the very least, know what to avoid in the future.
>>343743295
Holy shit
Go back to your babby game
>>343743386
Stay in school, you'll catch up eventually
>>343743295
When you find out how to kill that boss, you're going to feel really retarded. Especially since that's the main game's first boss.
>>343743295
>and i have no place to maneuver
roll backwards
>>343743295
>he also 1 shots me
liar
>>343743087
>>343743118
I've heard a lot of people mention the Soul of Cinder so I guess it must have been a problem. Personally, I saw it coming, but the boss does change a lot during phase 1 so it's not unreasonable to assume those are all its phases. I still tend to enjoy surprises during boss fights, though, since they make the boss more intimidating and they won't get you more than once. I just see it as part of the experience. I'll grant you that SoC would be frustrating for those who want to win first try.That said, anyone who didn't expect the second phase of Nameless King or Twin Princes is a goddamn idiot.
>>343736869
Technically, mastering of in game mechanics would make even health and damage scaling easier. It just makes killing enemies take longer, but ultimately wouldn't pose much of a problem to a master of the game.
>>343738575
artificial difficulty is a poorly chosen name for it. It refers to lazy design that feels fake, when part of an experience that as a whole strives to convince the player that it's real.
>>343744167
One thing I've noticed from this thread is that a lot of people define the phrase differently, which is probably why it's so overused.
>>343735842
There's a lot of forced damage situations in arcade beat em ups, designed to suck your money
I'd say stuff like that qualifies
>>343741556
more like this please
>>343743768
I hate when the games UI pretty much straight up lies to me.
I give games with health bars one chance, and DS3 wasted that chance with the piss weak abyss watchers. I summoned for pretty much every boss my first playthrough just to avoid that shite, and overleveled like crazy on my second run and melted those poorly designed doodoo's.
>>343737080
Rubber-band AI in an arcade racer is fine though. It's expected.
>>343744818
>I give games with health bars one chance
>memeland pic
What?
>>343744251
it's a buzzword that gets thrown around without any real explanation to it. the phrase itself has a vague meaning everyone can more or less relate to so people just make their own definitions however it makes sense to them.
>>343744818
>I give games with health bars one chance
I do not understand.
>>343744904
There are several good potential meanings for it, but unless we settle on one, it's functionally useless.
>>343744818
so you don't return these games after being dissappointed but you continue to ruin your experience by making the game pisseasy? makes sense!
>>343745016
we literally can't settle on one. 4chan has too many visitors for that.
>>343745127
Unfortunately true. Even if we could agree, someone would misuse the term on purpose to get attention.
>>343741065
Have you ever tried to fucking brake lead pipe by hitting something with it?
You rather hurt yourself than brake this shit, I only talk about lead pipe here, I agree with resource management.
ONCE UPON A TIME AT THE FOOT OF A GREAT MOUNTAIN
THERE WAS A TOWN WHERE THE PEOPLE KNOWN AS "HAPPY FOLK" LIVED
>>343737191
I don't think long distances without checkpoint is artificial. If anything the addition of checkpoint is artificial ease. Checkpoints are hard to argue for because they aren't a game mechanic.
>>343737178
That's not artificial difficulty, that's boring difficulty.
>>343744897
>>343744948
brain fart, didn't properly explain. if the health bar lies to me, tells me i've one and then resets itself, then im not going to respect it, im going to take the easy route to victory.
>>343745036
I try to enjoy the games for what they do well, dark souls specifically for atmosphere, and apart from the by numbers difficulty; hordes or healthbars, the interesting enemy designs.
My money doesn't mean so much to me, I'm a game design-ophile so I tend to find enough value even in some of the most terrible games.
>>343739418
No because it forces you to play differently. It gets you out of a comfort zone but in no way is that artificial.
>>343745903
You're a huge fucking faggot and I hope you're trolling.
>>343745498
>Checkpoints are hard to argue for because they aren't a game mechanic.
Of course checkpoints are a game mechanic. Their inclusion largely determines the pace of the game and how far a player is set back should they fail before the next checkpoint. If a stretch of the game between checkpoints is especially difficult near the end, it can be frustrating for a player so close to advancing to be thrown back so far. Likewise, a game with short spurts between checkpoints means to keep the action up with every encounter and can afford to make encounters more challenging since save points ensure setbacks aren't massive when the player fails.
>>343739485
The Last of Us was really bad for this as well. It was just a way to force you into action.
![maxresdefault[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/kxvJ0c8.jpg "maxresdefault[1].jpg")
To me, artificial difficulty can mean a few things.
When the game has to cheat to provide a greater degree of challenge to the player rather than doing so by making the enemies harder, smarter, or more precise is one example.
Using this definition, many FPS and Racing games may be described as artificially difficult. The Unreal Tournament series makes a good example, as on the highest difficulty the bots can see 360 degrees around them and through walls, as does the "rubber-banding AI" in many racing games.
Artificial difficulty also includes when the increased "difficulty" comes in the form of bloated hp and/or defense in the enemy's favor, making the game not so much harder as it is just more tedious.
A few prominent examples of this are Bethesda games such as Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, and Skyrim.
Legitimate trail and error in games can also be described as artificially difficult, as it doesn't matter how skilled you are at the game.
Many platformers are guilty of this. It's rather common to have to fall down a pit to progress through a level, even if said pit looks exactly like all the other instant death pits in the level. You wouldn't know which pit is the right one until you have already jumped in.
The game not explaining its mechanics to the player, or doing so so poorly that it leads to a player's confusion, is another example of artificial difficulty.
The most common example of this is due to a poor translation, and as such many RPGs and adventure games are guilty of this. Things like the Red Crystal/Garlic in the English versions of Castlevania 2 and Poise/Stability in Dark Souls could be considered examples of this.
Just my two cents on the matter.
>>343746503
tl;dr
Artificial Difficulty just means bullshit.
>>343739418
It's not exactly lazy design, they're asking you to make full use of the mechanics they've made, to switch up your style, but sometimes they force you into a box where almost nothing is effective, which is dull because it reduces player choice and agency.
Pretty much any mechanic people call "artificial difficulty" can actually be done in intelligent ways that improve the experience, but recognising differences between individual player perspectives plays a key role in the success of a design choice.
>>343746503
Bloated HP is most commonly a problem when it makes the fights longer, but not any more complicated. Bethesda RPGs are a major offender here. Enemies with giant health bars in Dark Souls can be legitimately tougher, because you actually have to learn their attack patterns in order to win. In most shooters, though, more HP just means more time and ammo spent on an enemy, which is only a concern if you're trying to save bullets.
In short, bad difficulty usually means having to do the same thing over and over again.
>/v/ liki gorillaz
wew, not only is /v/'s taste in games shit, it extends into music aswell
>>343735842
How Can Difficulty Be Real If Video Games Aren't Real
#deep
>>343747138
How does it feel to have irredeemably shit taste
>>343739938
>Rubber banding
never an issue if you keep your head about you in 1st place.
>more health in a cover shooter
means you need to use cover more effectively
>sudden change in difficulty
I would say it isn't as sudden as you think. Learn to use certain players more sparingly and they won't get as exhausted.
>every enemy knows where you are
Every game does this. It's all down to the designers intent. Not artificial.
>horrible hitboxes
Learn attack patterns better.
>>343740160
It's a feature.
Stop playing games.
>>343744847
Fuck you, you stupid cunt, it doesn't make it any less bad.
It's a bad mechanic for bad games.
>>343747138
>hating on Gorillaz
Why tho?
I remember riding my skateboard with my friends down to the music store to buy Demon Days on release day. They gave me a free poster that's still on my door
I must have listened to that CD a thousand timesI wish I could go back
>>343747138
>he goes on 4chan to bitch about other people's taste
lol just kill yourself then
>>343742407
>>343735842
yes. It refers to things that, when increased, don't make the game more difficult in a meaningful or engaging way. EX:
1. Rubber banding cars in racing games
2. increased health on enemies in FPS games
3.AI gaining free resources in RTS games
ect.
>>343747562
What is your top ten Gorillaz list anon?
>>343747280
>Rubber banding
>never an issue
Don't know if this has been posted yet, but I find this site has the clearest grasp on what defines artificial difficulty:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty
>>343747280
>rubber banding is never an issue
Yeah, except if the track is made so that before the finish line there is a long straight stretch of road. Good luck getting first place without abusing the AI
>>343738575
artificial difficulty is meant as something forced, like giving the boss 30k health and the player a weapon that does 1 damage per swing, and an animation of 3 seconds per swing, with the boss being super fast. It's super difficult, but by no means fun.But still, you'll have people kill dark souls' kalameet with a toothpick so maybe it's still just about taste
>>343747707
>19-2000
>Ghost Train
>Dirty Harry
>Kids with Guns
>Feel Good Inc
>Dare
>Dont Get Lost In Heaven
>Rhinestone Eyes
>Stylo
>Empire Ants
In no real order
>>343747804
That's real difficulty, though. Terribly shitty difficulty, but not artificial.
It's artificial difficulty if a complete master of the game can't pass a challenge every single time. Someone like that could do that. Someone like that, however, couldn't defeat a boss where RNG determines his changes of success (Artificial difficulty).
>>343737083
HERE, PERFORMING FOR YOU
>>343740379
Borderlands 2 is an example of artificial difficulty.
Enemies on higher difficulties don't get any more difficult than they already are. No new attacks, no new tactics, everything comes at you the same speed it did before. They just take (A LOT) more damage to kill and do more damage to you.
>>343748712
That's bad difficulty, not artificial difficulty.
Ffs /v/
>>343747280
>>Rubber banding
>never an issue if you keep your head about you in 1st place.
While it is generally beatable, it's still a bad way to balance an AI in a racing game.
It's one thing (and a good thing at that) to have an AI adapt to your skill on the fly to keep you challenged no matter your skill level, but it's another thing to give them a speed or handling bonus that is otherwise impossible for them to obtain.
>>more health in a cover shooter
>means you need to use cover more effectively
This doesn't make the game harder though, it just makes each encounter take longer, more tedious, and makes for a less enjoyable experience overall for most players.
The better way to balance this would be to make the enemies take cover more often, coordinate with their allies, and to be more tactical in general.
>It's all down to the designers intent. Not artificial.
Many game designers intentionally make stupid choices that make a game worse, and these bad decisions shouldn't be supported anon.
The example in question goes against conventional logic, and thus assuming the player knows that a kill no one saw or heard will still alert all enemies in the area to his presence is unfair, and thus artificially difficult.
>>343746650
>Artificial Difficulty just means bullshit.
More or less.
>>343748195
In the situation in question, the problem arises when it doesn't take a master to kill said enemy, but anyone with a modicum of skill and a tolerance for tedium.
If the enemy is terribly easy but just has an ungodly amount of health, then it's not hard, just monotonous.
When the "difficulty" comes from from this monotony, I feel it's fair to call it artificially difficult.
The latter example you mentioned is also 100% artificial difficulty, but it's not the only example or form of it.
Artificial difficulty also is shorthand for "terribly shitty difficulty" or "bad difficulty" to many players.
>>343748805
To many players, the two are synonymous.
>>343747740
Even though it's a TV Tropes link, I'm inclined to agree with the points made, especially when making the distinction between fake difficulty and rubberbanding / HP sponges. I mostly see fake difficulty as a non sequitur from the game's set of rules or tone, like what a bunch of point-and-click adventures call puzzles where you tape over a hole and somehow get the hair needed for a fake mustache for a guy who you're trying to impersonate (who doesn't even have a mustache to begin with).
>>343748982
Jesus Christ this autism
>>343748712
That does actually boost the game's difficulty in a way that a skilled player can beat. It's just not that interesting.
>>343749030
>muh ad hominems!
>>343748712
TV Tropes has a page describing this effect.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeLongevity
>>343747707
Latin Simone (English if only so I can understand it)
November Has Come
Dracula
Tomorrow Has Come Today
Melancholy Hill
Empire Ants
Stylo
Every Planet We Reach is Dead
Feel Good Inc
12D3
I like somber tracks I guess
>>343746063
I would still say they aren't a game mechanic. Nothing you can do as a player affects checkpoints. Sure they affect pacing but as I said that's a developer choice.
If you get good at a game the idea should be you won't need checkpoints at all and just making them further apart doesn't make a game more difficult, it just means you have to memorise/repeat what you do a lot if you're bad at the game.
>>343747718
>>343747790
Wow do you guys never look behind you in driving games? Especially on the final stretch.
>>343747138
Looks like we have another /mu/ tryhard
>>343735842
You know how in games teach you how to play or introduce you to a new mechanic before implementing it to a lot of enemies or a boss?
When when the game doesn't do any of that and just fucking throws you into the fray to die multiple times people cry artificial difficulty.
Like that boss from Super Meat Boy.
so how about dat Noodle redesign
somehow I'm reminded of someone but i can't recall what. Definitely from a PS2 RPG
>>343737184
Mostly? Yes.
Artificial difficulty in itself isn't bad. But if nothing compliments it, it can stick out like a sore thumb(Oblivion Vanilla)
>>343735842
Yes, it's based on games that cannot present the player real challenges through level design, enemy design, enemy placement, traps, and other such things.
Instead the obstacles presented are lagging, imprecise, or slow controls. Bad control mechanics within the character itself or objects you need to interact with, limited movement mechanics that do nothing but make interacting with the game a pain, and enemies having huge HP/Damage that do nothing but make them sponges artificially elongating fights beyond any real logical point that they should have been.
Having high Hp in things like turn based JRPG's is fine, as it's a test of your planning. Anything free action based combat just makes it time consuming, not based on any set of skill aside your ability to run away.
Other examples of this are rubberbanding AI that cannot think for itself but is given automatic catchup for free. Fighting game AI that reads from your button presses and auto inputs the correct counter measure instead of simulating actual decisions, and enemies/AI in shooters that have aimbot mechanics.
>>343749946
nevermind it just came to me
>>343735842
Total War: Warhammer campaign difficulty options is a good example of shitty artificial difficulty.
Certain execution in fighting games is completely artificial. Such as Millias Rages Instant Air Dash in guilty gear it requires a special input compared to regular instant air dashes that is hard as fuck to pull off and if you cant do it you lose corner carry and so much damage.
>>343748982
Never said every design choice was a good one. Just those examples were not artificial.
Rubberbanding is a funny one because AI speed can be controlled by the distance between you and them. I've never had difficulty with arcade racers and rubberbanding because I keep my play in check.
>>343736925
spicy
RTS games that have the AI tech up faster, get more resources, have increased HP and damage is artificial difficulty. They don't beat you on strategy alone, rather they have a bike when it is a potato sack race
>>343738757
Terrible controls is up there. Even if idiots will occasionally confuse tank controls with terrible controls(inaccurate when game is designed around precision, etc)
Nothing is worse in a PS2 game than to get to any of the sniper challenges, but it turns out the deadzone of the controller makes them extremely hard to do.
>>343749727
How does looking behind help when the AI decides that his Miata can do 240km/h to go past me?
>>343742341
>>343742818
>>343743323
>>343743523
Jesus fucking Christ, this shit. I am lesser for having read this faggot's masterwork of shit-eatery, never post again you intolerable smarmy fuck and if you need to rub one out do it on your own time
>>343750131
you forgot how the AI usually has map awareness, making ambushes and flanking impossible. Especialyl Wargame is notorious of this.
>>343750057
>Rubberbanding is a funny one because AI speed can be controlled by the distance between you and them.
My problem is that it just goes against conventional logic.
If I'm in a race in real life and get ahead of my opponent, he won't suddenly get upgrades to his car that give him more speed that magically go away when he gets close to me.
I just think it's a lazy way to add challenge to a racing games.
It's not particularly hard or obtrusive if you game the system as you do, but it's still something I think you shouldn't have to do.
>>343749993
Look at Castlevania. for examples of some of those things working fine.
> limited movement mechanics that do nothing but make interacting with the game a pain,
Is the jump arc being incredibly stiff "artificial difficulty" because it gimps the player's abilities? With more control over the jump's entire arc, dodging enemies and making jumps would be easier, as these things are designed around the stiff jump. Is it wrong for the developers to intentionally leave the player more vulnerable in this way instead of giving the player a more traditional jump and designing the game's challenges around it? A more fluid jump expands the player's skill ceiling and gives the developers more ways to test the player.
I'd argue no. The stiff jump arc is made to emphasize foresight and planning over reacting to the challenges. It changes the challenge in jumping to when to initiate jump instead of constantly working to keep yourself out of harm's way during the entire duration of the jump. It's built to fit a different challenge that the fluid jump would undermine.
>enemies having huge HP/Damage that do nothing but make them sponges artificially elongating fights beyond any real logical point that they should have been
The long hallway full of Medusa heads and the knight perfectly combine both the jump and the HP issue into one good interesting enemy encounter. The knight's large HP pool means that the player must take a long time chipping away at him, forcing them to keep up their dodging for a longer period of time. This adds a sort of "endurance test" to the difficulty as well. It's not only about planning when to initiate the jump to dodge the attacks, but also being able to do it repeatedly and for a length of time as they fight the knight.
My basic point is that there is no inherent single aspect of a game that is objectively "wrong" or "bad". Games are complicated and made up of many different moving pieces and parts. What matters is how it all comes together.
>>343750545
You seemed have conveniently ignored the other parts of the post I presented because it conveniences yourself. Try reading it again.Incase you're too stubborn or retarded, you used castlevania in a post that stated good game design uses enemy placements, ai and level design to challenge the player, all things castlevania does.
>>343750331
Well if you see him coming up fast you can drive in his way to block his overtake.
>>343741704
>That image
>Somebody ruined one of my favorite albums by mixing it with Overrated
Overwatch fans are truly worse than MLP fans.
>enemy defense/dodge rating is based purely by level and not by defense/dodge stat (example: you do significantly reduced damage simply because enemy is one level higher than you
>>343749465
Maybe game mechanic isn't the best term to describe checkpoints. Checkpoints serve as miniature goalposts that track the player's progress as they advance through the level. Perhaps it would be more apt to call checkpoints a game feature instead, but either way they clearly have an impact on the perceived challenge of a beginner player. Of course any veteran wouldn't need checkpoints, but they wouldn't be surprised by a game's controls or blind jumps either, so it's not really helpful to hold the definition of fake difficulty from the perspective of a professional, even though that analogy is helpful to show when the player's skill in the game isn't enough to pass through certain obstacles.
By increasing the time or distance between save / check points, the player has a much greater punishment in store for failure. This alone doesn't add difficulty, but the attrition associated with the same amount of resources stretched over a longer period of time can make the game more challenging. Combine that effect with more dangerous enemies and it's easy to see how players can get frustrated after getting so far in the level.
>>343750502
If it happens in a driving sim then I see your point, but most games with rubberbanding are arcade games and in these instances it's to keep the adrenaline up and most likely designed around you being able to smash them out of the way.
A noticeable example I'm seeing is Mario Kart but who doesn't keep a red shell handy when way out in front?
>>343735842
sure, just play Dark Souls 2 and you'll see
>>343735842
It is, but most people dom't underatamd what it means. Like this >>343736869 moron for example.
>>343750956
I have always seen checkpoints as lessons. If you end up back at a checkpoint then you should have learned a lesson. If that is poorly implemented it's bad design but hardly artificial.
POST GORILLAZ TIER LISTS FAGGOTS
>DEMON DAYS
>GORILLAZ
>PLASTIC BEACH
>D SIDES
>G SIDES
>POWER GAP
>THE FALL
>>343735842
I always did wonder why they didn't do a full on show, tv or web only.
It felt so good just watching the characters do dumb shit
*uses full restore*
No....
>>343752659
There was talk of a movie but it all fell apart because Jamie got salty or something.
Artificial difficulty is usually unintended as a result of bad design, ie: clunky/jank combat or unbalanced enemy dmg/hp, although it can also be intended as well.
How the fuck do I press it on me?
