What does "Grand Strategy" mean?
I have played AoE2 so what's the difference?
watching paint dry simulator
>>343556535
It's on a "grand" scale.
You can minutely micro-manage everything except battle. Then it's just a matter of sending an icon with a larger number attached to it against another icon.
A huge map, a very long campaign, a ton of different mechanics, they usually have a very steep learning curve. The fun for me comes from setting your own goals you want to achieve and using all the different mechanics together to accomplish it.
Its a big step up from AeE2.
>>343556596
4u maybe, for others it can be pretty fun
In normal strategy games like Age of Empires, you have a limited map, and the gameplay revolves around juggling your resources and worker units to build a healthy economy that can support the production of an army to defeat your enemy. It's all very dependent on abstractions and with clear win conditions, since the timescale, resources and the development process itself is rather detached from reality.
Grand Strategy, or at least Paradox "Historical" Grand Strategy, works by dialing the scale back to a realistic time period where you have a world map, and can take control over any sovereign state of the era [or sometimes create your own, or in CKII's case, any noble lord] and given free reign to proceed with the game in whatever manner you see fit. It's a pure sandbox with no win conditions, and while there are still abstractions, the game does its best to simulate as many elements as possible that a conquering nation in the time period would have to worry about in the process.
In military use, a separation tends to be made between four distinct levels of operation: Tactical, operational, strategical and grand strategical. The use varies a bit depending on context: historically operational level for example has been referred to as minor strategy, grand tactics and such like while I know some modern-day militaries include grand strategy when talking about strategy, but whatever you call them, those levels of operation are still distinct things.
Tactics involve the command of engaged forces in battle, operational level deals with maneuvering of armies (logistics, deployment of forces to achieve strategical objectives etc), strategy is about setting long-term goals that would ultimately let you win the war, and grand strategy is planning beyond strictly military matters (politics, diplomacy, economy etc). As you might note, tactics also deals with smaller scales of time and units (minutes to days, squads to brigades) than higher levels of operation (strategy is involved with decisions taking place at level of weeks to years and divisions to theatres).
So, a grand strategy game is a game that focuses primarily on grand strategical level of operations: diplomacy, legislation, economy and such like, and includes peacetime in addition to wartime (it's worth noting they almost inevitably they would also involve strategical and possibly operational level, the categorization is a question of focus).
However, Paradox drones tend to use it interchangeably with "complex strategy game" or even "Paradox development studio formula game made using Clausewitz engine".
sure as hell isnt Europa Universalis
Internal Administration
Foreign Diplomacy
Warfare
>>343556535
it's for auti-clever people
>>343556535
It would literally take you less than 5 seconds to type this in google and read the first result
Sometimes I wonder how you fucks manage to breathe
>>343559353
That includes trade policy, industrial production, societal policies, unrest levels of both your home provinces and the provinces you conquer, international relations, religious needs, army upkeep, etc. etc.
Paradox has a number of different franchises it brands as Grand Strategy, and each focus on a particular element.
Europa Universalis is the Age of Exploration, and it does a little bit of everything with a special focus on colonization and the acquiral of territory.
Hearts of Iron focus on World War II and is geared almost exclusively towards theatre of battle operations and army tactics.
Victoria II focus on the pre-WWI era and has extremely complex production and trade systems, as well as a in-depth population system. Think of it like a city builder on crack.
CKII is the medieval era and its focus is tracking dynastic lines of succession for its hundreds of titles and the management of vassals, from the local count level to the Holy Roman Empire.
In RTS you usually controll the units directly and have a first view of the battles.
In Grand Strategy the battles are mostly resolved automatically and you instead take care of diplomacy, positioning the armies, economy, etc of the whole country.
A hybrid would be the Total War games that have an RTS part in the battles where you control the units and a GS part in the turn-based mode where you develop your country, move armies and deal with diplomacy. Of course the GS aspects are much lighter since the focus isn't there.
>>343560162
>victoria II
>>>>>>>>>>extremely complex production and trade systems
>>343556535
It means a game will take half your life to finish, an thats if you even finish at all.
>>343557489
I can never get into that game
>>343560569
For the standards of Paradox games, my nigga
I had a character limit to work with there, and didn't feel like making it a three parter
>>343560681
There's no reason to since it's broken as shit and all decisions are pointless in the end.
I played it quite a few years ago tho, I'm not sure if the newer versions improved that buggy, broken clusterfuck.
>>343560825
Yeah it's flawed as shit but the base concept is really interesting
>>343556535
If you want a paradox game, avoid EU4. CK2 is pretty good.
HOI 2 with either Darkest Hour or Arsenal of Democracy is pretty good. Three is good. Four is horrible.
I'm still awaiting for a modern-day Grand Strategy game with a tech tree as ridiculously future-proof as Supreme Ruler had
You started with mid-90s technology levels and by the end of the tech tree your military consisted of psionic soldier armed with impervious energy armor zipping across a battlefield at sanic speed slashing one another with energy blades.
>>343560974
>avoid EU4. CK2 is pretty good.
>>343560974
What makes HoI4 so bad?
>>343561429
AI is bad, even by normal paradox standards, they streamlined a lot of the production stuff, combat is pretty simplified. I think a couple systems are tied to mana too.Hitler's portrait isn't in the game default.
>>343556535
it means you set parameters and tell things what to do, rather than doing them yourself
imagine 4x, but instead of moving your units you give them orders and they automate. including combat
>>343561429
Play it for MP only
It's been simplified beyond a lot of peoples liking.
It does have it's moments though like how I lost a million fighting in Yugoslavia due to the fact my production was overwhelmed by my forces fighting in Africa. This led to my units being under strength.
>>343561429
>What makes HoI4 so bad?
It's new and popular so older paradox fans must hate it
>>343561705
>streamlined production stuff
nigga the new production system is the best part of the game
unless you're talking about the lack of resources
>I think a couple systems are tied to mana too.
political power is not really a restrictive system, the only mana thing that's really annoying is how you need to spend AXP on changing templates
>Hitler's portrait isn't in the game default.
are you german or something
hell multiple swastika mods have been up on the STEAM WORKSHOP of all places since release and they still have not been taken down
>>343561705
>Hitler's portrait isn't in the game default.
Hitler is in the game default
Just not on the German version, which is what Paradox show in streams for obvious reasons (hitler being illegal there)
>>343561125
so, stellaris?
>>343561705
Senpai, the game you can buy on steam has Hitler's portrait.
The pirated version being distributed on pirate bay and similar sites is using the German version, which censors Hitler.
Quit being a cheapass nigger and buy the real game.
>>343556535
Its where you wait for valid casus belli and your mana to recharge.
>>343562419
Hitler thing was a joke.
>>343561238
He's right though. EU4 is a piece of trash.
>>343561429
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q13jHMcPDfM
>tfw they completely ruined ck2 with just one single shit update
>>343562573
Not quite, Stellaris isn't modern-era tech
That said, however, what I want of Stellaris is an expansion pushing the Kardashev Scale to its limits.
It's supposed to be space grand strategy, I want to build Dyson Spheres, create artificial planets and cause black holes to appear on command if I have enough money and resources to throw at it.
Let me rearrange the heavens Paradox, my autism demands it.
>>343562791
The council?
>>343562791
Conclave would be alright ONLY IF they removed the ability of vassals going to war to improve council power and they really, really scaled the way favors work.
>>343562573
Maybe thematically, but as far as actual gameplay effects are concerned, technology is very impotent. Tachyon Lance barely does more damage than starter kinetic weapons (twice as much or something along those lines, of course it has other benefits as well but ultimately they're same-y).
map painting
EU4 is a boring and trash game.
I have over 1,200 in it, so you should listen to me.
>>343560569
>extremely complex production and trade systems
Compared to AoE and other RTS, yes it does.
>>343561429
It's new and this is /v/
>>343563109
>start game
>Every empire excluding the Ummayads and Abbasids falls apart due to infinite civil wars for council power or elective succession
>exit game
>>343563591
I outrank you, child.
It is an okay game, was on the verge of greatness for a while but Paradox lately seems to be doing their damned best to make the most fun part of the game less fun.
All it needs is more endgame content and viable methods of accumulation of power, rather than the pointless "endless gravitation towards a neutral middle" design of the Estates system.
>>343563612
t. liquor pro
>>343563881
The states and territories or corruption systems they just added were even worse than estates.
All they do is add another layer of bullshit that isn't fun at all. At least estates had some interesting things.
>>343563881
>expanding is fun
>every patch and expansion they implement some godawful new mechanic to make expanding harder
Also fuck sake I enjoy playing Timurids and they made them near impossible to play now
>>343563881
>you can see everything EU4 has to offer within 50 hours
>2456 hours played
Alright what is the best grand strategy game ever?
>>343564579
Aurora
>>343564121
Yes, I agree, I partially agree, I was just pointing to the Estates system as an example of a system that worked better before Paradox "balanced" it and made it pointless.
I don't mind states and territories and I think they could serve as a basis to fix the constant debate of how to make a country powerful without tripling its size through conquest. But corruption is a just garbage mechanic that offers no rewards for its existence beyond "you don't have to interact with it anymore".
Estates though, it used to be that decisions regarding estate influence and loyalty were really meaningful because their consequences would stick with you for the foreseeable future and make certain provinces a pain to deal with. But now they all revert to a neutral "we're okay" middle point.
That's no way to handle accumulation of power, and it fails in comparison to acquiring provinces because the provinces you conquer don't revert back to their owners after 20 year cooldowns.
>>343564579
The one with your favourite setting.
>>343564579
real life
>>343564613
A this point the game penalizes you for anything that isn't growning extremely slowly and playing "ordinarily".
The states and territories have potential, but right now they offer very little besides another money sink.
Is Stellaris basically Europa but in space? should I get it if I already have EUIV and CK2?
>>343565996
No, it is rather different, I don't think it can at all be compared to any other Paradox franchise with the exception of the population system that takes some cues from Victoria II.
It is far more centered on exploration, for starters, you can't already start the game by conquering everyone around you since there ISN'T anyone around you.
>>343565996
It's Civ in space if Civ didn't have replayability.
>>343560162
I always felt that Vicky2 focused mostly on politics, which given the time period goes hand in hand with industrialization.
>>343566310
>>343566623
So should I get Stellaris, Galactic Civilizations 3, or Civ: Beyond Earth?
>>343566934
It's a choice between Stellaris and GalCiv. Beyond Earth is not worth it.
>>343563109
Give the council enough power to vote on wars.
Put your most powerful vassals on your council.
There, you'll never have any civil wars ever again.
>>343566792
You are also correct, I forgot to mention it
>>343564579
Darkest Hour
>played Victoria 2 a little bit but could never get into it
>buy it during the Steam sale and try again
>just end up letting the time run while researching stuff
>for some reason can't even build units
I'm playing as the Netherlands and I think I can't build units where I'm trying to because I guess I don't have access to the required resources there but I would imagine there would be a way to move resources from one area to another within your empire. No idea how I'd do that though. It just ends up saying "searching for resources" for over a year.
any fantasy themed grand strategy game?
>>343569141
CK2 with mods
>>343569141
CK2: warhammer mod
It's actually called gherhemisnacht or some other alien German. It's very detailed and has a lot of options but like all good paradox mods it's slow and crashy as shit.
Usually means that you have to invest a lot of time just to understand how to play at a level where it's fun.
>>343556535
I play these games and I'm not even sure what it means. Pretty sure it's just some faggot shit Paradox came up with for marketing, but don't let that stop you. They're very interesting games, although not for everyone.
>>343556596
>t. console player who will never experiece 4x
Mate you can run Galactic Civ 2 on your grandmother's computer. Just fucking play it and stop whining like a little kid who need instant gratification.
>>343570051
Is the Gal Civ series considered grand strategy? Or just strategy? I have 3 and it's pretty cool although I haven't played the shit out of it.
>>343570274
It's 4x.
Remember, subcultures are infinitely fractal. Lots of people think 4x+GS are the same thing, roughly. If you head over to /gsg/ they'll autism out about how 4xs (and half the ones in this thread) aren't TRUE grand strategy, etc.
>>343570754
Yeah I'd have called it a 4X strategy too. I just asked since you mentioned it as a reply in this thread. As for /gsg/, I've gotten some useful help out of them but the yes autism level there is about as intense as I can tolerate.
>>343570754
Nah, /gsg/ will be too busy shitposting to care about any distinction
>>343556535
Map painting and spreadsheet simulator.
>>343569724
No, it has an established meaning:
>expanding strategy beyond military means to include diplomatic, financial, economic, informational, etc. means
>examining internal in addition to external forces – taking into account both the various instruments of power and the internal policies necessary for their implementation (conscription, for example)
>including consideration of periods of peacetime in addition to wartime
(From Wikipedia, sourced to The Making of Strategy by Williamson Murray)
Hell, Paradox has named their game engine after Carl von Clausewitz who was one of the early proponents of importance of political aspects of war (ie. grand strategy) so they clearly were aware of what it means.
Too bad the bulk of their players don't (including almost everyone in the thread) so it's not exactly useful as a genre/a way to describe something.
>>343570754
/gsg/ will throw a autistic fit over everything, to be honest.
