Is there a game with worse writing and dialogue than Undertale?
Rhythm Heaven Megamix.
Can't think of much else, though.
>>343379847
Dark Souls 3
Planescape
>>343381235
The game has dialogue? SEEK SEEK BEAR LEST gbbbbbbbrrr
>>343379847
Enslaved : Odyssey to the West
DmC DMC
>>343379847
The problem is, in the age of irony, anything that takes itself too seriously is shat on, and the games he's recommending there definitely do. Kids today want a silly quirky piece of retardation with silly memes. They don't want, nor can they handle, a serious work that explores themes with impact on people in reality, not just in some quirky game world.
>>343381215
Problem is, it's ruined by knowing the gimmick. It can't reveal your soul if you know the truth about it
>Alphys commits horrible atrocities
>"oops, sorry"
>Makes anime jokes
>We're expected to not think that she's an evil person
For fuck's sake, she is like a sweaty reptilian Mengele.
>>343379847
>quirky
>implying "monsters are people" is an idea the game portrays
>implying the ending is a deus ex machina
this is just like when people say the game is full of memes and SJW pandering but never give any examples
I guess he could have played the game, but it really doesn't seem like it
Is Undertale really another one of those
>You played this game
>You are a bad person
shit like in Hotline Miami and Spec Ops?
>>343381215
>that first sentence
"shit just isn't for everyone. If you don't like shit...it means you're just not into it..."
>Super Mario World is a good game
>but that still doesn't change a fact that i killed a person, even an ingame
yes it does, you went back in time. It's chronologically incorrect.
>This game helps you understand that we're all [gamers] A BAD, really BAD people
I stopped reading here.
What is it about Undertale, that it has the same effect as Sonic...to attract all of the most retarded people?
>>343382208
No, not at all.
>>343379847
There are hundreds. Nearly every JRPG for example but some include: Suikoden 1 and 2, FF Type Zero, Xenogears (disc 2), Xenoblade, Fire Emblem on 3DS etc.
>>343382286
confirmation bias
>>343382208
It's more of an MLP phenomenon. "You just hate this game because it's popular!" or "You just hate this game because of its reputation!"
>>343382430
The writing in Xenogears disc 2 is better than the writing in disc 1 though ;)
You're thinking of the presentation, surfacecuck
>>343382430
Go back to shilling your Bioshock Collection, Ken.
>>343379847
Hundreds of games have worse writing than Undertale.
My personal most hated game writing wise is Dungeon Travelers 2. What the fuck was with that tutorial in the first dungeon with those two animal things?
>>343381526
Enslaved: Odyssey to the West has good writing too anon. DmC's writing is retarded but don't drag Enslaved down with it.
>>343382430
>Fire Emblem on 3DS
Isn't the dialogue in this basically just "LOL SO RANDUM PENGUINOFDOOM JOEKS" outside of the main plot?
>>343382890
>starts by attaching anime images to his post
>begins his argument by referencing an anime tv show
Your average undertalefag.
>>343382892
and you thought THAT was bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAA-OBRLDzU
this is a new level of autism, my friend.
>>343379847
Oh, that retarded review whom didn't even try to understand the story and then attempts to "Seem smart" by using "Big words" rather than actually explaining why or what makes certain elements of the game and characters bad or cliché.
I mean, let's start with this retard trying to claim that "breaking the fourth and self-deprecating", the latter which he fucking misspells in his effort to seem smart. There's a no explanation given or even examples of why the fourth wall breaking was bad writing and just mentioning it does not make it bad. It's always about execution, not what tools you use.
self-deprecating humour? Where? Which part is he even fucking talking about, because I do not remember any of this. Does he even fucking know what the word means?
And then there's the "Clichés and shallow characters", again, no examples given, no arguments as to why certain characters are shallow to him even though the game attempts to show depth in the characters through the various backstories and subtle hints given. Whether they are still cliché or not can be argued but at least make a fucking argument rather than just say "It's cliché"
And then he fucking says "Perfunctory", again, does he even fucking know what the word means? What about the endings comes off as effortless to him? And a fucking deus ex machina? So he openly admits that he didn't fucking pay attention to the story then? Because prior the true ending fight, you get plenty of hints of how Flowey came to be and who he is, with the ending fight confirming the player's suspicions if he/she paid attention.
I'm fine with people disliking the game, but this retarded voted 0 without giving any actual reasons for it, he only tries, and fails miserably, to use "Big words" to make his "review" seem more valid and intelligent than it really is. I fucking hate asshats that does that.
>>343383128
>anime is bad
where did this meme come from
>>343382208
Well yeah, except you can not be a bad person if you want, or be the worst kind of person.
The game doesn't force one conclusion, but it does backseat drive if you catch my meaning.
>>343383421
Gotta admit Tidus is a pretty bleh character. I could tolerate him in 2001 but I don't know whether I can in 2016
>>343379847
>or an Ayn Rand novel
>>343382552
What the fuck does that have to do with what anon said
>>343383421PSMD's story is kinda shit, not gonna lie famicom.
>>343383421
>undertale
>>343383421
Yiffbait as the first example immediately made me think this image is satire
>>343383603
This, the other games probably had a better story than SMD, dunno bout Gates though since it's the only one I didn't play
>>343383373
>Big words
Like what?
>>343383669
what's wrong with it
>>343381796
>she is like a sweaty reptilian Mengele.
Stop exaggerating. She's nothing li-
>tasked by Asgore to inject unknown chemicals into monsters on the verge of death in hopes their souls can be harvested postmortem for experimentation
>intends to use the research to manufacture an unlimited supply of artificial souls and weaponize their SOUL power to blast the barrier to bits (and humanity next)
Nevermind.
Still, when the monsters eventually woke up, it completely broke her. The only reason she didn't commit suicide out of guilt before the game even begins is because of a chance meeting with Undyne. To me, Alphys is about as evil as Asgore. They both have shallowly good intentions backed by cowardice and desperation. Toriel isn't much better by running away when the kingdom needed her most, but at least she isn't actively pushing for human genocide.
>>343383561
Yeah, they're anti-guilt if anything. Pretty much just condoning being a self-centered piece of shit because you can.
>>343383530
I don't think he's likable but I think he's a good character. He thinks and acts like a somewhat self-centred teenager and is believable in his lack of care about the culture of those in Spira. His issues with his father due to his leave and constant belittling of Tidus are understandable, and he lies to himself about how he really feels about his father. The romantic feelings he experiences towards Yuna are slow and well developed. He matures somewhat as the game progresses. I thought he was a fine character. Its just that at the end of the day he's still an annoying teenage brat.
>>343383603Its the Mew stuff that makes it worse, huh? I thought it held strong, especially with the foreshadowing involved with Nuzleaf. It also made sense of why he'd be so willing to take you, a random stranger, in.
>>343383692
Its not meant to be sattire. Furrybait or not, CC2 knows how to develop a world.
>>343383773
Perfunctory, which is him trying to say that the ending is just "Lazy", but he wanted to seem intelligent so he said perfunctory.
Even though perfunctory is a fucking word used for actions, it's not used to describe the writing of a story or ending for example.
If that doesn't make it obvious that this fucktard is just trying to seem intelligent for the sake of not having to actually explain anything, then I don't know what does.
>>343379847
>i am autist contrarian, please notice me!
>>343381796
She's not a horrible person. She's just made a lot of mistakes and is afraid of accepting the consequences of her actions. She doesn't want to admit what's she's done and is ashamed of herself. She makes anime jokes because she became a shut-in as a means of hiding from the world. The anime jokes are referential to how she's become a weeaboo shut-in watching cartoons all day, trying to escape the reality of her crimes.
>>343383820
>Power of friendship
>good story
That's Fairy tail-tier shit.
>>343379847
a bunch, cause undertale's a good game
>>343384137
Normally I would agree but when a world explains itself as having each and every character having powers caused by "determination", with evidence that the degree of a character's determination can vary, it becomes somewhat justifiable since it has reason behind it rather than just being "friendship makes everyone stronger!", similarly to how Gurren Lagann handles spiral power as a means of giving reason behind "You can do anything if you just believe!"
>>343384137
fairy tales are great though
a lot of the most innovative and visually impressive films during the golden age of animation centered around famous fairy tales
>>343379847
>planescape torment and deus ex meme
Immediately followed up by Kotor which is genetic Bioware trite
Typical post modernist gen x entitled millenial raised by the internet
>>343382208
No its just an incredibly meta game that makes the player feel bad for wanting to play a video game.
>>343379847
Undertale is great you fucking racist. Fuck off back to /pol/
>>343384372
sweet memes man
>>343384137
You're insulting fairy tales by comparing them to Undershit.
>>343379847
I don't know, how do you define good and bad video game writing? Most people sure can't tell it apart.
>I don't like this game, so it's bad.
No, it just means you don't like it. I know I was like that in my teens.
>>343384426
what's wrong with undertale
>>343379847
Borderlands Pre-sequel
>wait you killed enemies in a video game?
>YOU'RE CHARACTER IS SOCIOPATH
Undertale reminds me of those Newgrounds videos or web comics from 10 years ago pointing out how Link going into people's houses and smashing pots makes him a huge weirdo given real world context.
But its the entire game. That and ironic dad humor
>>343379847
How about you stop supporting degeneracy and give money to people who actually deserve it without going on a shilling campaign on every online site to market their game?
>>343384430
This, even here, a lot of anons just claim so and so game has bad writing as part of a larger criticism but do not elaborate on it. What makes good writing in a video game for you guys?
>>343384430
>No, it just means you don't like it
And I don't like it because its bad
>b-but quality is subjective
No there are bad things. This is fact. Damage control somewhere else
>>343384521
omg such blonde blue eye white male would let him fuck me in the ass while we kill all blacks and gays no homo
>>343384493
that doesn't happen unless you go out of your way to search for enemies to kill and grind until there's none left
>dad humor
like what?
>>343384372
>>343384393
niceme.me
>>343384430
I wouldn't say its the only thing or a rule, but I think a good start for definining whether or not something has good writing is whether or not the characters are made out to seem human in that they have reason for their actions and personalities and have obvious discernable personalities. Its also nice for the world to be grounded by some sort of rules and/or reason explaining how it works so that way something can't get away with whatever happening willy nilly.
>>343379847
>>343384137
>he do genocide
>>343384579
why is it bad
>>343384084
Her being a weeaboo is also a plot point explaining why she and Mettaton are friends, so I'm not sure if literary analysis is proper here.
A better example is when she claims to have taken a selfie and posts her garbage can instead. Or how she has such low self-esteem about anyone liking her she ropes her only friend into playing villain so she can be the hero and make you like her.
>>343384521
But I already gave my money to Toby, whose genius is on the same level as the creator of Tetris.
>>343379847
Snow Light
>>343384521
I didn't enjoy LISA, so I didn't give money to this guy. I enjoyed Undertale, so I gave money to its creator.
I'm sorry I didn't enjoy LISA anon, but I feel that Undertale is far more deserving of my money than it. LISA is still a good game though, just not my cup of tea. Its too depressing.
>>343384716
>Her being a weeaboo is also a plot point explaining why she and Mettaton are friends
is that so
>>343379847
>Ayn Rand novel
Welp, at least he has a better taste in video games
>>343383421
I disagree.
>>343384541
The characters must be developed, have motivations, and be well-rounded, at least changing somehow throughout the story.
The setting must be realistic for the characters, with a well-established location, timespan, and so forth.
The story must seem like it is realistic (not realistic in real life, but realistic to the game world), the characters motivations should influence their actions in the story, so forth.
If you want to know what a good writing really feels like, it's better to read books than play games, because it's hard to notice good writing in games, but easy to notice bad writing (see >>343384664)I suggest The Great Gatsby
>>343383373
Epic pasta is epic.
>>343383849
The untertalefag felt guilty when he read Ayn Rand because he's a communist
>>343383968
Yeah, alsoI thought the villain/conflict was pretty trite. Hurr I'm all the bad feelings and I'm gonna hurl the earth into the sun. Also the whole beginning dragged on too long, I think that's a pretty common feeling.
I've only played the original PMD though, beside SMD. The relationship between you and your companion felt more gradual and natural in that one.
Has anyone mentioned Bulletstorm yet?
>>343384850
This image vs the other good stories one seem to be in extremely sharp contrast with one another stylistically. Such different sorts of games in what would make one think they have good stories
>>343384850
the characters in undertale are developed, have motivations, and change somewhat throughout the story. characters do not have to be well-rounded to be good, but there are well-rounded characters.
there is a well-established location, it is realistic in terms of the universe, and the characters' motivations influence their actions in the story.
>>343384684
Genocide isn't any better, outside of two boss fights.
Pacifist as that power of friendship shit and expects me to care about Asriel when he comes off as just an annoying little shit.
The Love and EXP explanations are some of the most pretentious drivel I've ever read.
Only character worth a damn is Papyrus.
>or an Ayn Rand novel
>Trails in the Sky
>>343384084
>She's just made a lot of mistakes and is afraid of accepting the consequences of her actions.
Yeah, nah. Leaving the oven on is a mistake. Drinking too much is a mistake. You're a mistake. Fuckin' mad science experimentation for the purpose of destroying a civilization is not a goddamn mistake.
>>343384137
It's more like the power of compassion/redemption tbqh
>>343379847
A lot, since Undertale has pretty good writing and dialogue.
>>343385046
>This image vs the other good stories one seem to be in extremely sharp contrast with one another stylistically
Yes.
>Such different sorts of games in what would make one think they have good stories
what the fuck are you saying
I don't know what you asked so I can only say this:I can only disagree with the other image based on personal taste. I chose those games because I really think that they have multiple qualities of a good story that I listed. Also most of the games in the original image were role-playing games so the games I posted (DX and SS are arguably not RPG, but I think they are) role-playing games with good stories
>>343384820
Yeah, they're both human otakus. An unnamed ghost related to Napstablook was the only one that came to her human club, and they became friends that way. Eventually the idea came up to make a human-shaped robot the ghost could possess, and the ghost dreaming of stardom took the stage name Mettaton. The creation of Mettaton is what lead Asgore to appoint Alphys as the next head scientist and further research the nature of the soul.
>>343385098
I thought the LOVE twist was cute, but I can see what you're saying with EXP. And Asriel is boring. Flowey is a far better character, wish there was more of him.
>>343385098
Gonna have to agree with you, senpai.
For me, Undertale was a series of bits that made up a whole game. I enjoyed getting to see the gimmicks/jokes of random enemies. Each area had some presiding lore-dumping boss that supplied humor as I went along. In Pacifist, the game basically became a really boring slideshow with some occasional jokes and music. In Genocide, there were some bossfights to enjoy, but that was about it.
Overall, the things that stuck with me about the game were just the 'bits'. The overarching plot is deviant-art tier. I never really cared about humanity versus monsters and Asgore and all that shit. I think the game has a problem of having much more interesting characters than plot.
>>343381215
Really makes you think
>>343385440
I wasn't asking a question. Just found it interesting how different the games between images are and didn't word it well
>>343385346
I can forgive Flowey, but I'll never forgive this dog.
GIVE TORIEL'S PHONE BACK YOU LITTLE SHIT
>>343385567
The pacifist ending was my favorite part, but a lot of people just prefer the skeletons or whatever.
>>343385332
But the purpose was to save lives, she never tried to make WMDs and she never did make WMDs, she made sentient undead blob horrors.
>>343379847
>play all these old games that came out nearly 20 years ago that literally everyone with a brain has played
Or you could encourage people that actually put effort into making new games you shit eating faggot. Comparing games while reviewing one is the laziest fucking way to review something possible.
>>343385763
>that 2nd best ending where the dog is elected president of the underground
>>343384980
Play Explorers of Sky already
There are few things more pathetic than people being verbose simply for the sake of trying to appear intellectual.
>>343385904
>she made sentient undead blob horrors
Oh, okay. That's so much fuckin' better, isn't it? S'okay guys, it's not the Manhattan Project, just the Island of Dr. Moreau.
I don't understand why people have sympathy for the monsters.
They're literally only one human death away from becoming all-powerful murder machines.
We should have finished the job a long time ago.
>>343379847
If youre not a millennial you wont appreciate the game.... what I mean is Ive only seen old people hate on this gameㅅ
>>343386271
millennial includes everyone born after 1980
stop using this buzzword
everyone under 36 using this buzzword is retarded
>>343386202
It's not like she did it on purpose, and frankly the results really aren't that bad in and of themselves unless you wanna get into they can no longer die and are forced to walk the earth for all eternity as an amalgamation of several different beings fused together into a single split sentience.
Now I mean, if you look at it like that, it's pretty fuckin terrible which is probably why she tried to kill herself. But people give Alphys a ton of shit for making a mistake. A massive mistake, yes, but there was no ill will behind anything she did.
People treat her like Hitler when she's more like the guy who decided to fill the Hindenburg with Hydrogen.
>>343386045
>dog wasn't even elected
>climbed up onto the throne during all the chaos and started sleeping
>monsters just say fuck it the dog is king
Toby loves dogs way too much.
Speaking of being elected king, the Papyrus ending is so depressing. At least he finally gained all the popularity he deserved.
The game constantly promotes the idea that the monsters aren’t all bad, and you shouldn’t judge a book by it’s cover. But that’s not immediately apparent at first, so if you don’t KNOW that, and you fight the monster and kill it, the game treats you like an asshole for killing another creature. Because apparently defending yourself is a bad thing to do. This wouldn’t be so bad if it were a one time thing, but this happens constantly in the game due to all the random encounters. It’d be different if the player walks into a room and encounters an enemy and, through their own actions, initiates a fight. But that rarely happens, almost all of the enemies are aggressors to YOU, so the game’s idea of monsters not being all bad falls horribly flat. This is especially apparent when Undyne points out every one of your supposed friends in one of the endings had tried to kill you at some point, which makes me think TobyFox knew enough about this cognitive dissonance enough to lampshade it but didn’t even bother trying to fix it.
>>343386503
do you think someone would do that
just sit in an undertale thread and post pasta
>>343386271
I doubt it.
>>343386565
Fuck it, it's a good point.
>>343386565
PASTA?
>>343386641
it's based on incorrect observation though
>>343386565
It's real popular actually
>>343386503
>But that’s not immediately apparent at first
Which is ok because you can just reset and fix it.
>>343385649
it shows that
1: a good story is subjective
2: games can be in stark contrast in many ways and still have good stories.
>>343385076
>there is a well-established location
ah, yes. the underground. Let's talk about it. First of all, the game can't even answer basic questions about it, or maybe I missed it:
how big is it? what is the population? where is it? how did the monsters adapt?
>realistic in terms of the universe
I disagree. first of all there are many strange "things" within the universe:
let's start with the snowy place. There are trees there, but how do the trees photosynthesize? how does it snow when there is no cold atmosphere above? I could keep going but I'm lazy.
BUT MOST OF ALL: "but what do they eat?"
This is the most essential question of world building and I don't see any farms for the monsters, for example there is butterscotch pie, but where does the flour, yeast, brown sugar, butter, etc. come from? never explained of course.
Once again I could go on but I'm lazy. Pic related, here's a map of the game. Now you tell me? Does this map look like a complete world? It's lazy, linear, and has everything in common with the JRPG's it tries so hard to parody.
>>343386678
How is it incorrect?
>>343386709
>never explained of course.
Actually it's explained that monster food is literally just sculpted magic and isn't really physical. It's why when you eat it in battle it immediately restores your health without the need for digestion.
It's also why monsters apparently don't poop.
>>343383421
I don't think you needed to go this far out of your way to make a shitty bait image.
>>343386786
where did you see this? I might have missed this dialogue.
>>343386832
It might have been in the Librarby or in one of the throwaway NPC dialogues. But it's definitely the case, because I remember it's how they justify/lampshade the "food heals you" trope that's so prevalent in RPGs
>>343386709
>how big is it? what is the population? where is it? how did the monsters adapt?
how many stories, including literature, answer these questions about the setting?
>the map is linear so the world is poorly developed
what in the fuck are you talking about? every game that isn't open world is just suddenly poorly designed?
the universe is obviously not our universe, so the rules of nature don't apply. it doesn't make sense, but it doesn't go against sense either.
>>343386832
A patron in Grillby's makes the distinction.
>>343386709
>JRPG's it tries so hard to parody.
Separate anon, but just wanted to say; there's a difference between mocking parody and endearing parody.
You're guess is as good as mine for the food though. They all talk about how they miss the sun, so even though Snowdin could technically be close enough to the surface to receive light through holes in Mt. Ebott, it's contradicted by the what the characters say.
>>343379847
>recommending Ayn Rand
That's some ratchet ass shit, lemme tell ya.
>>343386754
most of the monster encounters explicitly state that the monster is not intentionally trying to hurt you
the theme of the game is about finding peaceful resolution, as explained in the very beginning of the game. so even the monsters that set out to hurt you, the game isn't just doing a 180 when you decide against a peaceful resolution.
>>343386709
>how big is it?
Presumably the size of all the locations you visited. Considering you basically transversed the only way to the capital and to the only exit.
>what is the population?
Not given an exact figure, but it's stated it's getting crowded in the capital and they're running into space issues so a fair bit
>where is it?
Left deliberately ambiguous, but they have access to human trash and technology so presumably a first-world country
>how did the monsters adapt?
They built a city in the capital of New Home similar to human cities. The places like Waterfall, Snowdin, etc. are country villages formed due to overcrowding in the capital city.
Just because the game doesn't handhold you through a thorough explanation of the world doesn't mean an explanation doesn't exist.
>>343386641
>the game treats you like an asshole for killing another creature.
No it doesn't. The game treats you like an asshole when you're a hypocrite, like if you reset to save Toriel but don't save any of the other monsters. The only monster I can think of that gives you shit for killing generic enemies is Undyne, but she's the head of anti-human police. Of course she'd say monsters did nothing wrong while trying to murder you.
>>343386832
>>343386913
Additionally, monsters have been collecting whatever human stuff falls into the underground. Papyrus' multi-colored spaghetti is likely human food way past its expiration date collected from the dump. Luckily for Sans, he's a skeleton, so the pasta his brother makes goes right through him.
>>343387084
Since the USDA is mentioned in some flavortext, I'd assume the game takes place in the US.
>>343379847
>he acts as if breaking the fourth wall and being self-deprecating is the height of wit
Stopped reading there. At no point does the game ever break the fourth wall in an attempt at humor.
>>343379847
Castlevania: Symphony of the Knight
>>343387275
Does leaning on the fourth wall count? The shopkeeper bunny takes a direct jab at kickstarters.
>>343387068
Finding peaceful resolution =/= Choosing not to defend yourself against someone who literally wants to murder you
And then I'm supposed to be just okay with the fact that this dude saw fit to try and kill me
>>343387275
I mean, sans does tell a bone joke and then wink at the camera
but for some reason I can't imagine the guy was playing it without loads of bias if that pissed him off so hard
>>343387381
You play as a child that can reset time when it dies. You have the ability to defend yourself by dodging attacks. If you want to kill a monster that tries to kill you then fine, but the game isn't going to pat you on the back and say it wasn't your fault. It's going to tell you that you failed to change their minds about humans.
>>343387275
Are you stupid or joking? I can't tell.
Almost everything Flowey says is breaking the fourth wall.
>>343387381
Well technically, you can non-fatally subdue most monsters with physical force and the game won't knock you for it.
>>343387381
>who literally wants to murder you
Humans will never know the joy of receiving a bullet pattern birthday card
>>343387519
All of Flowey's dialogue is justified in-universe. At no point is he talking to the player directly.
>>343387519
It's not an attempt at humour though but rather a part of the story. It's not done for comedy, it's done for story purposes.
>>343387548
what about when flowey messes with the player's save file and taunts them about it
>>343387519
The reviewer is angry that the game uses fourth wall-breaking as an attempt at humor.
Flowey does not break the fourth wall in an attempt at humor.
>>343387602
saving is an in-universe superpower of your character. they literally have a "save file" they use to reset time with.
>>343382208
You get the bad ending for killing people and you get the good ending for being nice to everyone
I'll let you be the judge of that
>>343387610
other characters do though
it's just really not even enough of a joke to get that pissy about. literally a wink.
>>343386921
It needs thought put into it. Running in a straight path is never a good explanation for a world. For example in BioShock Infinite you run in a straight path, but it's lampshaded by the fact that the whole setting is independent, free-floating objects that move around and connect to eachother based on time. Yet undertale has no way of explaining it away. What kind of idiot would just build a civilization in a straight line with a few curves?
>>343387084
>Presumably the size of all the locations you visited. Considering you basically transversed the only way to the capital and to the only exit.
If monsters once ruled the world with humans, how did they fit in such a tiny space?
>Not given an exact figure, but it's stated it's getting crowded in the capital and they're running into space issues so a fair bit
But how big is the capital? But how many is crowded? and so forth... you should at least be able to see the effects of overcrowding, like for example seeing it. Or at least a picture of it. But we don't. Pic related: this is what overpopulation looks like.
>They built a city in the capital of New Home similar to human cities. The places like Waterfall, Snowdin, etc. are country villages formed due to overcrowding in the capital city.
But how did they build it? They're underground, so there should be quarries for material such as stone. How do they get their rare earth metals needed to make technology? Is it savaged? We never hear about any of this.
>Just because the game doesn't handhold you through a thorough explanation of the world doesn't mean an explanation doesn't exist.
But your explanations were based on extrapolations, which means that different people could come up with different explanations, therefore the answers are not defined. You created the answers not the writer. Therefore the world was not built with those answers.
>>343386816
Its not meant to be bait
Undertale was like a rollercoaster ride of laughs and good times. One of the comfiest games I've ever played. I'm honestly surprised some fag from tumblr created such a great game.
This reviewer clearly had some kind of bias, or he was dead-set on hating the game before he even played it.
>>343387703
A running gag in the game is that the king is terrible with names, so it's possible he's not great at design.
Anyway, most of the monsters are supposed to live in a big city. You can see it in the background. The world isn't linear just because the path you take is.
>>343385894
The best part of the Pacifist Ending was doing the True Lab, and that is an experience that is only great once.
The final "boss" in pacifism cannot possibly kill you, and Asgore's fight was ten times more emotional than Asriel's, whose entire spiel was basically just a regurgitation of the EXACT same message he was preaching as Flowey for the entire game.
The entirety of the true pacifist side of the game is only good, once. Granted it's REALLY good that one time, but the replayability for True Pacifist is nearly 0, while Neutral and Genocide has immensely more replayability.
>>343387610
He said that the game thinks it's witty for breaking the fourth wall. I get that vibe too; comes off as a very amateurish way to attempt "depth" that works on tumblrkids. Level of Violence, Execution Points. It's all pretty kidshit meta.
>>343387703
>If monsters once ruled the world with humans, how did they fit in such a tiny space?
They were massacred in a war breh.
Ancient wars were relatively brutal to populations. Didn't Rome lose like 1 fifth of its adult men in Cannae?
>>343387864
The buildup to Asgore's fight was emotional, as was the speech after the fight.
The things that happen after Asriel's fight are what get to me. No game has really hit me that hard. The whole saving your friends with their memories is pretty great too though, and Hopes and Dreams is my favorite track in the game.
>it's an undertale defense force thread
>>343382890
>reifag
Not surprised.
>>343387703
>If monsters once ruled the world with humans, how did they fit in such a tiny space?
This was a long, long time ago so both human and monster populations would have been smaller. Also they kinda had a war of which the monsters lost badly. Like "no human casulties" badly.
>But how big is the capital? But how many is crowded? and so forth... you should at least be able to see the effects of overcrowding,
The game doesn't go into detail about the population dynamics of the capital, but overcrowding is explicitly states as a major motivation for why the monsters want to leave. And as I said you do see how monsters have been settling more inhospitable places (Snowdin, Hotland) because of overcrowding.
>But how did they build it? They're underground, so there should be quarries for material such as stone.
Fucking magic, I dunno. It's established they can form physical materials out of magic.
Oh, and it is explicitly stated they salvage their technology from the trash heap in Waterfall.
>But your explanations were based on extrapolations
Except that's not the case at all, much of this stuff like the overcrowding, the story of how the monsters made it to New Home, the War, salvaging technology, etc are all explicitly laid out in the game.
At this point you're complaining that there's not a well-laid out table of population statistics and supply lines in the game. Which I guess is fair, a lot of my favourite RPGs do go into that detail, but a wide majority don't.
>>343387818
About the whole monster city thing, why are there two major cities? Home and New Home, right? People still live in Home, I mean, that's how Toriel gets groceries, yes? Are all of the people in Home also locked in the ruins with Toriel? Or do they have access to the rest of the Underground?
Also how can Flowey possibly consider you, the player, someone who killed all the monsters in the underground even if a lot of them are hiding in New Home or the True Lab? I don't get it. The monster residences are foggy at best, and a plot hole at worst.
Paper Mario Sticker Star is a better game in relation to make you do not want to kill the monsters
>forgetting a jill sandwich
>>343387864
I 100% agree with everything you just said, and I really just wanted to say how I'll never fucking forget the first time fighting Asgore and this shit plays
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcamjcoRmrQ
>That first fucking build up after bergentrückung
>That feel when bergentrückung can mean a hero who will awaken to save the day, mountain rapture, and king of the mountain
Asgore was the final boss we deserved.
>>343383859
This to be honest. Tidus is not immediately likeable or even possibly ever likeable, but he does exhibit unique character growth and it annoys me that meme-loving fucks latch onto one of the examples of character building because it sounds funny when I laugh like a retard. Rant aside, Tidus's character shows progression and he comes to terms with his lot in life and that of his father, and for that, he's on my list of one of the best protagonists of a JRPG. He's not a likeable one, but he is a sympathetic one.
>>343382073
How does it feel to be wrong? That's literally the game he described.
>>343388128
Asgore, the king of monsters, was also a boss of immense missed potential, seeing as how he wasn't even trying to kill you. Undyne managed to get so angry at you that she transformed into a super saiyan, but nothing you could possibly do in Genocide would awaken Asgore to the point of actually being the warrior king he used to be.
And yes, Asgore has the best music in the game. I'm willing to make a lot of songs fight for second place, but Asgore's was the best.
>>343387548
This, even the post-credits dialogue could be Flowey trying to talk his brother out of resetting. In fact, it's entirely possible not a single character in Undertale realizes that the player is there. You think they're talking to you, but they think you're some other character. And you'll never be judged for your actions, because as far as they're aware, you don't exist.
A bit lonesome, when you think about it.
>>343388212
wow man you better not say that again I'm getting a little bit steamed
>>343386709
Post the better map.
![Romantrave-640-640[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ofZrNSv.jpg "Romantrave-640-640[1].jpg")
>>343387818
But the world is never drawn--never explained, not a single map, not any idea of how big it is, not any idea of how big Mt. Ebott is, and so forth. Also the image of the big city, here it is, once again it looks sort of classical/neoclassical but where do they get the resources? Once again never explained (pic related, a roman stone quarry)
>>343387930
a fair point
>>343387997
>This was a long, long time ago so both human and monster populations would have been smaller. Also they kinda had a war of which the monsters lost badly. Like "no human casulties" badly.
once again a fair point
>Fucking magic, I dunno. It's established they can form physical materials out of magic.
yet again an extrapolation. here's another one of yours:
>Presumably the size of all the locations you visited. Considering you basically transversed the only way to the capital and to the only exit.
>Oh, and it is explicitly stated they salvage their technology from the trash heap in Waterfall.
But the cell phone for example. HOW THE FUCK DOES IT WORK UNDERGROUND? there are no cell phone towers. In real life we need special technologies to communicate underground so how did the monsters invent them (citation: http://www.wvminesafety.org/PDFs/communications/Additional%20Documents/Communication_Systems_in_Underground_Mines.pdf)
Also, the technology is obviously trash and thrown away, so then the monsters need to repair it, but how do they get silicon, gold, and so forth? Lacking explanation, not unexpected at this point...
>>343388262
I felt his difficulty was "just right". Not too hard, and certainly not too easy. I do kind of agree, I mean the entire game could've been avoided if he would've just absorbed/fused with one of the children's souls, but I was overall happy with the characterization and story we got. He was just a sad dad that didn't want no trabble.
The demo was great but I feel like after the ruins the game just focuses on being quirky rather than actually being good
>>343388551
As someone who likes the game, I agree. The demo left me with infinite expectations and finite results.
Granted the game was GOOD, but you cant really top the expectations left by the ruins. Snowdin was a VERY large step down.
>>343379847
>the game's payload is a single emotional experience
>that emotion is guilt
The fuck is he on about?
I felt lots of great emotional experiences playing Undertale (and there's certainly more than one key powerful moment) but since when did it make you feel guilty?
>>343388495
I appreciate your effort but how does that affect the story in the slightest? In an open world RPG like, say, the post-2 Fallouts, that kind of worldbuilding is better because it builds believable worlds and makes it resonate more with you when you explore and find said info. But for a fairly linear RPG that's more character driven than anything, that kind of basic detail bogs down the narrative and would destroy the pace if it were forced upon you, and if it were optional it would ultimately be a "what?" kind of thing because there are more important and pressing concerns about the setting than where they fucking get their cell phone power from. Please don't nitpick where it's undue.
>>343388695
I think he's overanalyzing the twist to the point of thinking that Toby, the game's creator, is trying to make us ALL feel bad for killing monsters in RPGs.
>>343388706
I said that a good setting requires an in-depth world, with everything making sense.. An anonymous user responded and said Undertale's world had that. The many things I've said so far are my explanations and you can see from my dedication that I really am interested in these sort of things, which is why undertale disappointed me.
>>343379847
Huh. That is pretty much my exact opinion. He just puts it more eloquently than I could.
>>343382208
It's a game praised for its morality system when it's pretty much just another "here's a puppy, you can choose to pet it, or kick the fuck out of it. There are no other options" situation.
Like pretty much every single fucking game with one of these "karma" systems.
>>343388920
I appreciate that, but doesn't that seem overly anal to you? Every game is going to falter and handwave at some point. I'm not going to say you shouldn't look at games for that, but it seems fairly narrow to me and I certainly wouldn't argue that Undertale has an in-depth setting, but I do argue that its setting works for its intended purpose. Ultimately it's up to you whether or not that damages it as an experience.
>>343388874
>he's overanalyzing the twist to the point of thinking that Toby, the game's creator, is trying to make us ALL feel bad for killing monsters in RPGs.
That's pretty funny considering that the player never has to kill the monsters and the only punishment for killing the monsters is that their friends hate you until you kill them too.
It was a fun little game with a bunch of jabs at video game tropes people familiar with the medium could find humorous or quirky. Made in large part by a single guy.
Far worse than the people relentlessly praising the game are the people treating it like it's the antithesis of the video game industry.
Dude made a game. People liked it.
Lets write an essay on MC and slap an "objective" 0 on it like adults seeking true literary works of art in our medium, right?
>>343388262
>but nothing you could possibly do in Genocide would awaken Asgore to the point of actually being the warrior king he used to be.
It's because Asgore is broken on the inside after everything he's been through. He's a gentle giant who just wants to run his kingdom of happy monsters with his beloved wife and potter about in the garden, but instead he's had to lead his people through the wrong end of a genocidal war, had his children ripped away from him by humans then lost his wife because he said something he really shouldn't have in a fit of rage, and has spent the last unknown number of years alone, isolated and having to murder children every so often.
He literally commits suicide in the neutral ending if you try and give him mercy. Asgore is not in his right mind any more by the time the game's events take place.
>>343389047
When I see that a game is advertised as an RPG, I expect to get immersed. Undertale somehow managed to break my immersion like once every few minutes. That's why I don't like it. Maybe some people don't like that immersion but I do.
>>343389028
Even in games with similar karma systems, rarely does a game with a battle system and rewards for killing enemies ever let you actually finish the game like that.
Literally LITERALLY, the only game I can remember that you can beat without ever touching the attack button in a game where the attack button is very prevalent is Ikaruga, and that's only because the game had ANOTHER unique system based on defending, not attacking.
Granted I know there's 1 or 2 games that constantly give you shit and change mechanics if you go out of your way to kill every enemy you see in hilarious ways, like Snake Eater and that one JRPG I can't remember at the moment, but Undertale is a very unique, or at least rare case of a game with an RPG battle system where you can go without killing anyone at all. Considering the mechanic was BASED on Shin Megami Tensei negotiations, those games never had the option to not kill for the entire game.
>>343389125
Flowey, the implications of Chara, and Sans' sense of self awareness are there to make you remember that you're playing a game, to the point where in the Genocide ending, the game outright tells you that you're mind-controlling a little kid into committing horrible actions.
>>343389125
I'm not sure how really, there really aren't any fourth wall breaking moments, maybe a few implied but a lot of that is up to interpretation and everything else is justified in-universe. I appreciate your attempt to enjoy it however, even if you ultimately didn't like it. I think it's better to make an informed opinion even if it's negative than to write something off or praise it offhand.
>>343379847
>thinks that the main thrust of the game is about guilt
>unironically recommends ayn rand books
>doesn't like baldur's gate either
Ah, the "smart enough not to sound stupid, but stupid enough to completely misunderstand metahumour" butter zone of autism.
>>343389270
As Chara, the fallen child, who is your "player character" in Genocide run who is overriding the personality of Frisk. The game never outright says "you, the player, murdered all those monsters." Chara is the narrative representation of the player, but is still strictly in-universe.
>>343389376
>doesn't like baldur's gate either
Arguably the biggest red flag in the whole post.
>>343389376
Anyone who doesn't like Bladur's Gate or Neverwinter nights is literally, without doubt, always 100% of the time underage.
>>343389414
Undyne is one of the few characters to realize that the person attacking her isn't human in a genocide playthrough. It doesn't take TOO much headcanon flexibility for people to realize that she's talking about the fact that Frisk's Actions aren't their own.
Also Papyrus describes Frisk in a Genocide route as "Shambling" as if a zombie.
>>343379847
>Any Rand
And he was doing so good too.
>>343389486
Chara isn't human, he's explicitly a spirit who is corrupting and the closest thing UT has to a pure evil entity. Frisk is being controlled directly by Chara, and this is reinforced in a soulless playthrough when Chara has his own dialogue despite being named by the player. It's an in-universe entity that represents a malicious player, but is still narratively justified.
>>343389486
>>343389640
Just because something is meta does not mean it's automatically fourth-wall breaking, it's leaning on the fourth wall, like typical save mechanics being actual in-universe powers, but ultimately nothing is broken.
![latest[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/ipX9w9N.png "latest[1].png")
>>343389476
I'm currently playing Baldur's gate and I feel like the game makes it too easy to be good. Undertale is the shitty opposite, trying too hard to make you feel like a dick. Do people enjoy that, just having a game trash talk them?
>>343389710
ok, whatever. But the game still broke immersion a lot. For example there was that weeaboo whatever lizard thing, and let's be honest when I took the escalator upstairs in the lab and saw the poster it was like in MGS, "It's like one of my Japanese animes!" and this immediately broke immersion.
>>343389640
Chara IS a human, it's just that there are multiple Charas. Before you start writing me off as overanalyzing, just listen.
We are not Chara. This is a fact. The game tries to explain that the person guiding Frisk's actions is Chara, and that we name Chara Chara, BUT there's one thing that makes us all know that we're not Chara, and in fact there are multiple beings named- or at least claiming to be Chara, and that is the fact that Char has a Backstory.
We cannot be Chara, the fallen human, because we were not involved in that Backstory, while the fallen human did. We can, however, be Chara the Demon who comes when its name is called.
Chara is a Kid who died.
Chara is a demon.
Chara is a feeling.
All three of these things are different, while the second one talks about the third one, those ending two do not necessarily relate to 1. We are not Chara, especially since at the end of the game, Chara "takes our soul" so you could even argue that there's 4 Charas, us being the fourth one, as well as the feeling, while the Fallen human and the Demon, although different beings, are both in-game entities, but are not the same.
The Chara that fell down kill themselves to be absorbed by asriel.
The Chara that is the demon becomes corrupted and awakened after YOU perform a genocide ending, but is a substantially different being. Think; Flowey and Asriel.
Also keep in mind that Chara doesn't do anything until the very end of the game after you kill sans. Until then, you are in full control of the game, and the Demon has no control. At worst, all the demon does for you is help you skip puzzles, like Papyrus' puzzles; or the entirety of Hotland.
>>343389917
alright fuck it I'm done this is by far the most pretentious piece of fiction that I've ever fucking seen in my entire life, hot damn this is fucking weird.
>>343390025
It just takes a little bit of thought. The Demon and the Fallen Child cannot be the same being, and certainly can't both be us. You're NAMING the fallen child, and controlling Frisk until you awaken Chara. You are not Chara.
>>343389913
>I'm currently playing Baldur's gate and I feel like the game makes it too easy to be good.
Arguable. You certainly always have the option to be a crazy asshole to everyone in that game at least. It's just that you'll usually find a character somewhere in the world that shares your set of values. In Undertale there's only Flowey.
>Undertale is the shitty opposite, trying too hard to make you feel like a dick.
If you really want to be good in Undertale and keep in mind that's it's always possible, you'll find a way.
>>343379847
Probably some of those shitty indie games that try to be 2deep4u but only leave people scratching their heads thinking the devs were on shrooms
>>343390104
I already played this game once and hated it, I don't have the pure willpower to play it again.
Anyway guys thanks for entertaining me (I guess the undertalefags would just call me a hater) especially taking the time to even respond to my worldbuilding autism.
Peace out.
>>343389917
>>343390025
You are overanalyzing to a great extent. The puzzles are solved by the fleeing monsters, doesn't take much conjecture to solve that one. There is only one Chara much like there's only one Asriel, he took on a different shape and became Flowey while Chara latched onto the earliest human. Chara is buried directly below where Frisk lands and that is prolly where first contact was made. As for who is controlling it... You got me there, Chara isn't technically controlling him at that point but I can't really come up with a narrative reason for why Frisk would murder everyone then except out of the possibility and sheer curiosity.
>>343390267
Actually, scratch that. We don't know that Chara didn't latch onto the other humans, nor much about the actions of said humans, though given where their items are found most of them probably didn't get far enough to matter. It's possible that some went for pacifist, and some went for murder, but they all lacked Determination as evidenced by their sealed souls, so it's possible you're just the first with the power to save.
>>343388495
>once again it looks sort of classical/neoclassical but where do they get the resources?
The city in the ruins was built before monsters ever wandered into the mountain., so they needed no resources for that. Not sure about New Home, we might have gotten a better explanation if Toby hadn't decided making more areas was too much effort on his part.
>In real life we need special technologies to communicate underground so how did the monsters invent them
The reason you need special technologies underground is because signals are obstructed by the cavern walls as the caves twist and bend. But in Undertale, the mountain is essentially hollow. The monsters are more "indoors" than "underground". Waterfall would be an issue with its narrow caverns and turns, but its catwalks show that it has a really high ceiling just like the other areas. Plop a tower on the top of MTT Hotel or Alphys' lab, and you'd have coverage of the entire inside of the mountain. Speaking of which...
>HOW THE FUCK DOES IT WORK UNDERGROUND?
The same way Mettaton hosts his TV show and the monsters have internet and Alphys can observe you with her cameras. It's not shown in-game, but it's definitely all wireless, and it's assumed that the barrier blocks connection to the outside world.
>Also, the technology is obviously trash and thrown away, so then the monsters need to repair it, but how do they get silicon, gold, and so forth?
From the trash, of course. If their dump is from a consumerist culture, they'll be drowning in cellphones with broken screens but are otherwise perfectly functional. You don't need to harvest the materials or produce the products yourself when they've been literally falling from the sky for who knows how many decades.
>>343379847
> listen to Imaginary Worlds podcast
> it's run by a guy who's basically a sperg but there are some great episodes here and there
> latest episode is about Undertale
> with "special guest" Nathan Grayson, one of the five guys who fucked Zoe Quinn and all-around self-absorbed asshole
> consider whether or not to unsub from the podcast
Also, Skyrim has some pretty bad writing. It's not "terrible" so much as "poorly thought out."
>>343390267
Actually in hotland, the puzzles were never activated at all, since in Pacifism, it's explained that Alphys turned them all on (Explained by confused monsters) to "guide" Frisk through the underground.
In snowdin, Frisk either skips Papyrus' puzzles, while the one map&button puzzle has "plant vines" all over it, hinting towards it being Flowey who helped you skip that one.
>>343390359
Knowing whether or not Chara actually latched onto other humans is a small problem we have with the chronology of Flowey. We dont know exactly when he was born, and exactly when he fled to the Ruins to find you. It makes the most sense for it to be after 6 humans already died, but who knows what window of time that was.
Also Chara's influence can be explained to be what gives Frisk the ability to do damage higher than one, as on the "date" with Undyne, even if you attack with the dagger and land it right in the middle at full power it will hit for 1 and only 1.
Whether or not we're the only ones with the power to save once again calls back to the issue of Chronology, in that we don't know if Flowey encountered any of the other 6 humans before, not to mention Flowey is very surprised to see "Chara" on a genocide run after the ruins, starting to recognize that it's actually Chara in control, and not Frisk.
>>343390535
You're right about the puzzles, I hadn't considered that. However, on the fuzzy subject of the chronology, it really is up to interpretation due to limited info, so I fear our discourse ends here.
>>343379847
Gearbox writing
>>343390705
I saw footage of Sacred 3 a few days ago and the writing is almost identical to that.
Everyone tries to copy Joss Whedon and fails horribly. It's like a genocide against good writing.
>>343390674
Well we could continue to debate over whether or not Frisk's actions are their own, Chara's, or ours. Then again that last one is debatable on the terms of whether or not we are actually Chara.
I mean, if we were, we would be selling our souls to ourselves at the end of the game, right? What's up with that? We can't be Chara.
Which leaves The Fallen Human, The Demon, and Us, all named Chara, while we take control from Frisk, then The Demon takes control from us.
>>343389917
>multiple Chara theory
A man after my own heart. But no, there's only one Chara. His demon talk is his own perception of himself.
>>343390535
Chara only latches onto Frisk. He wakes up shortly after we arrive and discovers his purpose through our actions.
Additionally, it makes the most sense for Flowey to only have encountered Frisk. Flowey's plan hedges on Asgore revealing the location of the souls. If Flowey encountered a previous child, he could have easily stalked Asgore after the kid's death and discover the hidden location that way.
>>343379847
>read an ayn rand novel
pretty elaborate troll, up to that point
>>343391158
>A man after my own heart. But no, there's only one Chara. His demon talk is his own perception of himself.
But that's a fundamentally flawed theory. If Chara is controlling Frisk, and WE are controlling Frisk, ergo that means we're Chara, yes?
That logic implies at the end of the game that we're selling our souls to ourselves. That doesn't sound right.
Let's not forget the Fallen Human's backstory either; we can't be that Chara because we never played that part of the game, so Chara was no longer a Player Character, and was instead a Videogame Character, which leaves the fourth wall breaking Demon to be left as an alternate being.
They COULD be the same person, but only in the same vein of Flowey being the same person as Asriel.
>>343381796
>Alphys commits horrible atrocities
Literally everyone is ok with what happened except for her. In fact most people are happy with it. And then she gets over it too.
>>343391242
Ayn Rand novels are all about the "guilt" that society imposes on powerful individuals in order to "pacify" them.
The novels are still shit, but that's literally what they're all about on a thematic level. I don't understand how someone could claim that it's a troll when it's a factual statement, not a qualitative one.
>>343391530
She subjected Asriel to a fate far, far, far worse than death. I'm pretty sure Asgore and Toriel would hate her forever if they found out.
>>343392204
You mean opening the barrier and saving his family and every monster, making a new friend and resolving what happened in his past life? As opposed to dying for no good reason and everyone he ever knew continuing to suffer?
Surely he should have stayed dead instead.
>Objective of the game is to return to the surface world
>that we never really see or interact with much
>so that our blank slate character can return to ???
>Seriously what does he have to go back to? Family? Friends? What is our motive for wanting to return to the surface?
>If anything the game is giving the player reasons to not progress because of how pleasant most of the underground is, but there's no option to just stay with Toriel forever or settle down in Snowdin
>On that note, why do the monsters even want to go back to the surface?
>They aren't struggling to survive or anything, they even have a skyscraper-sized thermal generator. Most of their reasons are honestly kind of petty.
>the most popular motive seems to be waging war against humans for the sake of revenge, so why would I want to let them out?
>The only person with sympathetic motives seems to be Asgore who's trying to forestall the inevitable war, and Toriel who doesn't want the war but for some reason gets mad at Asgore for trying to stall it? What?
>Maybe this shit is explained in the clusterfuck that is the true ending or something, but you really shouldn't be assigning motives to your characters at the very end of your story.
I don't think it's a bad game, but I'm surprised that even people who don't like the game haven't pointed out some of these issues.
I like Dark Souls a lot desu.
Fallout 1 and Deus Ex are probably my personal favorite "art" games, if I have to pick.
>>343379847
so far The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
instead of actual plot or worldbuilding most of the dialogue is just about how scatterbrained Estelle apparently is
