>there are people on /v/ RIGHT NOW who will honestly look at this and say "that's not 3D"
Why?
>>343142991
>this thread again
>>343142991
Fucking Bastards ruining my Doom experience telling me it's not 3D.
>>343142991
Because the engine has no true concept of height, only the illusion of it, it's impossible to place a room on top of another one, and without a source ports, enemies are infinitely tall and impossible to run over, even from a "high" platform.
It really is just a cleverly arranged and distorted collection of 2d sprites.
>>343145418
But it's 3D
>>343142991
Well, that's a source port, so it is 3D.
Technically, isn't it 2.5D in the same way the Paper Mario games are, in that they use 2D sprites in 3D environments?
>there are people on /v/ RIGHT NOW who didn't play the superior game that was unarguably 3D, with full 6DoF
Why do you keep reposting this exact same thread? Lazy trolling.
>>343146664
Not really. What they mean by "it's not 3D" is that unlike actual 3D games, the original Doom had no real Z axis. It's why, when you noclip into a wall with the intention of going through, you zip up to the upper layer. The player isn't ascending or descending, everything else is shifting relative to the player to give the appearance that you're going up or down.
This is why if you play in a source port but don't use nonstandard renderers, when you enable mouselook and look up or down, the ceiling or floor stretches into infinity, and looking directly down will cause shit to slide out from between your legs if it's directly behind you.
It's exactly the same sort of illusion as Metroid Prime's "3D" maps, not the actual environment but the maps you examine and zoom in on and such. Those weren't 3D models, but a collection of sprites that rearranged into different configurations depending on your input.
Doom has the illusion of being 3D, but unlike something like Quake, it isn't true 3D.
>>343142991
This is the third time I've seen this thread today. Why?
Is this nu-/v/'s next forced meme?
>>343143216
Is that Seinfeld?
>>343146664
The environments aren't 3D in Doom, they're just made to look that way. The back end of the game you're playing is completely flat, which is why you don't have to (or really can't) aim up and down. If you play a game like Doom or Blood with mouselook the world warps when you look up and down. This happens in a few actually 3D games (like System Shock) too apparently on lower settings but whatever.
But yeah, Doom is completely flat, just with the illusion of 3D.
>there are people on /v/ RIGHT NOW who are shitposting
>>343147303
Actually, I'll use a slightly different example.
Doom is like... a painting. It has the illusion of depth, but it's still actually flat, it's just that pieces are moving around and changing size.
While Quake is an actual model environment with real depth that you can move around in.
This is why DoomBuilder is just top down and lines. The game reads those lines and the information associated with them, and changes your angle of perspective from being topdown to parallel with the floor.
>>343147550
No, it looks 3D and plays 3D, so it's 3D
>>343142991
No.
THIS is 3D
>>343147303
>the original Doom had no real Z axis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GJ-gzna_dE
>The player isn't ascending or descending, everything else is shifting relative to the player to give the appearance that you're going up or down.
That's how almost every 3d renderer works, too
Most of them use raycasting.
>>343147550
>back end of the game you're playing is completely flat
Then why can imp fireballs hit floors?
>mouselook warps when you look up and down
That's an issue of older 3d engines using two point perspective, not a sign of lack of a third dimension.
>>343147737
See the anon above you's painting analogy.
>>343147778
>Then why can imp fireballs hit floors?
Probably just a graphical flare kind of like how your bullets can go up and down when in reality you and an enemy that appears higher are on the same level.
>>343142991
Because it's not. It's 2.5D
I wonder what Carmack would say about this autist.
>>343147681
The maps themselves may be two dimension, but that doesn't mean the game itself isn't 3D.
I can make a completely flat map in hammer, doesn't mean source is 2D.
imp fireballs hit the floor, and you can dodge them vertically
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Autoaim
The player vertical autoaim is coded in because of the inability to look up and down, not because of the lack of a z-axis
>>343147952
Then why can you dodge the fireballs vertically?
>>343146806
I do anon, I do
>>343147681
This is an incredibly flawed analogy. It would be better to say Doom and Quake are simply different ways of painting a scene onto the canvas, because they really are both just different ways of representing a 3D world on your computer screen.
I'd just like to interject for a moment.
What you're referring to as 3D, is in fact, 2.5D, or as I've recently taken to calling it, 2D sprites plus incidental 3D elements.
2.5D is not a dimension unto itself, but rather another component of a fully functioning graphical projection made useful by the Doom Engine and vital core components comprising a full engine as defined by Id Tech.
Many computer users run a modified version of the Doom Engine (or Build) in their mods, without realizing it's 2.5D. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of 2D with 3D elements which is sparsely used today is often called “2.5D”, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the Doom Engine, developed by Id Tech, with Build in the lineage. There really is 3D, and these people are using it in a sense, but it is just a part of the 2.5D sprite system they use.
>>343147737
You got the first part right. It looks 3D. Now engage in some critical thinking and you'll come to understand.
>>343148402
You think 2.5D means the game uses sprites to represent objects? No, anon. That would make Paper Mario 2.5D as well.
>>343142991
>not realizing what the game really is
>then complains
>>343148316
It isn't flawed at all. Only your understanding of mathematics.
>>343142991
Yes, doom is 2.5d/illusion of 3d, everyone fucking knows that, so what?
Just don't start spewing that retarded "doom is a top down shooter meme xD" please
>>343148554
The "plays 3D" part has already been proven right, anon. >>343148250
>>343148402
>>343148639
2.5D is generally used to mean a 3D game that plays like a 2D one, not a 2D game that plays like a 3D game like Doom is.
>>343142991
Oh hey, that's my webm.
And yes the 2.5D and 2D people are assblasted about it.
>>343148402
>>343148554
>>343148669
>>343148676
Doom has z-axis calculations, and the vertical autoaim was manually coded in, and requires you to be close enough to the enemy to kick in
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Autoaim
>>343148676
Hate to say it, but your understanding is what's flawed here.
>>343147534
Yes
https://youtu.be/4Aa2K_firtI
>>343148754
Doom is not 3D its just the illusion of 3D, have you never noticed the fact that rooms that are supposed to be higher then others arent layered on top of other rooms?
Doom isn't true 3D because the bsp trees of the map only work in 2D. Objects have a 3D position, lines are projected onto the screen the same way they are in a full 3D renderer, but the way the map is partitioned is strictly 2D
>>343148928
How is not having floors going over other floors proof that it's not 3D? You need to learn some critical thinking.
>>343147776
god I love Darkplaces
>>343148928
>Doom is not 3D its just the illusion of 3D
so many people are saying this shit in this thread, all games are the illusion of 3D projected onto your 2D screen, yeah Doom isn't full 3D but the reasons you're giving are completely wrong
>>343148995
That doesn't make the game 2D.
You can move in three dimensions, up/down, left/right forward/backward.
That's what defines 3D.
Just because a map doesn't have a place on top of another is a stupid thing to say.
>>343148995
It's represented in memory as 2D, but functionally it works as a 3D scene. Which is more important to you?
>>343148928
the levels themselves are 2D, but the gameplay and engine itself has 3D calculations.
>>343149174
what defines 2D or 3D is up to you I'm just saying why people don't consider it 3D, rooms can't be on top of each other
>>343149191
Not strictly true seeing rooms have floor and celing heights
>>343149390
TIL if you live in a 1 story house, it's a 2D house, but a 2 story house is a 3D house.
>>343148789
>>343148754
>>343148639
>not recognizing the copypasta
>>343149390
Rooms not being on top of each other is an engine limitation, it doesn't mean a thing.
>>343149109
>>343149174
don't be retarded
theres a difference between dooms "3d" and quakes actual 3d.
in doom, you cant actually go up or down, just because it may appear that way doesn't make it so. this is why there is never a moment where you can go under part of the level in doom, like you can in quake. quake is actually 3d, having multiple floors to a lvl and the like.
I'm sure someone asked Carmack whether it was 3D or not. What was his response?
What's the name of this game?
>>343149668
Duke Nukem 2D
>>343145418
>enemies are infinitely tall and impossible to run over.
I'M THE TOP OF THE WORLD!½1!?¿i
>>343149616
>actually 3d
I think you're the retard here.
No one is arguing that doom's levels are 3D, but the engine itself has z axis calculations and is inarguably 3d.
>>343149616
>I swear guys, when you're going up and down you're not actually going up and down
>>343149491
>>343149537
yet everyone thinks Doom isn't 3D for that reason, and it's literally 3D in every other way unless you consider using sprites for the objects not true 3D (despite the fact games still do it now for particle effects)
ITS NOT THREE DEE ITS JUST PIXELS ON A SCREEN
>>343149741
nice sourceport faggot
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Z-clipping
That being said, projectiles aren't infinitely tall and Doom actually has fucking z-axis calculations so the "DOOM IS 2D" crowd are retarded.
Is the Z-axis used in the game's calculations? Yes? Then it's 3D. /thread
>>343149907
That argument is correct.
>>343149941
this
>>343149914
What?
I'm running the original doom2.wad.
>>343149941
>people who have never dev'd genuinely think like this.
Hilarious.
>>343150008
confirmed for not knowing shit about Doom
>>343149616
You can go up and down. Every map object has a z coordinate and z momentum in memory. Every sector has a floor height and a ceiling height. Gravity exists, and if you're in midair you will fall (another word for moving down), though the original Doom doesn't have many situations where this is possible.
That said, yes, the rendering engine could be called 2D.
http://www.reocities.com/SiliconValley/2151/bsp.html
http://www.reocities.com/SiliconValley/2151/graphics.html
You can argue semantics all day about whether that makes the game 3D or 2D but at least get your fucking facts straight.
>>343150000
>0000
nice
>>343150015
Explain how it's wrong
>>343149941
definitely and undeniably this
>>343150008
regardless of what wad you're playing, most modern sourceports fix the z-clipping issue
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Z-clipping
Just read it nigga, you're partially right in that Doom is 3D, but the actors were infinitely tall in the original release, you couldn't walk under cacodemons either.
oh my god will you doom newfags FUCK OFF FOREVER
YOU'RE FUCKING CANCER
GET THE FUCK OUT
IT IS NOT 3D JUST BECAUSE IT LOOKS 3D
Wolf3D: 2D
Doom: 3D
>>343149616
>go up elevator
>jump off iver an enemy
Guys, my Doom is bugged. How do I turn 3d physics off?
>>343150159
>That said, yes, the rendering engine could be called 2D
When it's rendering a 3D scene? What?
>>343150179
>IT IS NOT 3D JUST BECAUSE IT LOOKS 3D
no game is 3D because your monitor is flat
we've been living a lie for 25 years
>>343150245
You need to install the plugin that turns your argument into shit to fix it, but it's not adviced since it also gives you neckbeard and you lose 20 IQ but gain 20 pounds.
>all this revisionist history
Doom and Wolf are 3D games.
You only have to not be an underage retard to know this by looking at what came before
>>343150171
>Explain how it's wrong
Here is an old hand-programmed game of mine using a z-axis. In the end these things are just tools to govern the way your game works, whether they translate directly to the perception they create or not.
>>343150159
>>343150265
the culling algorithm (BSP) is 2D
the rendering engine could be said to be 2.5D because it's raytracing lines that can only be rendered from top to bottom of the screen and can't have angles
>>343142991
>GZDoom
As far as your topic is concerned, that's cheating.
it's a projection of a virtual 3D scene onto a 2D plane.
as is basically every other game since.
>>343150265
Yes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical)
>>343150427
It is?
If a game is broken on release but gets patched, is the patched version non-existing and the game is only broken?
GZDoom is still doom, just updated.
>>343150179
>IT IS NOT 3D JUST BECAUSE IT LOOKS 3D
This is false.
The standard for 3D is visual, not physical. That standard has changed now but it doesnt change the fact that games like Doom were the first mainstream 3D games back then.
>>343150423
There's no such thing as 2.5D, that's used to describe gameplay. When a scene is rendered, it's either 2D or 3D.
>>343150289
>>343150476
We're not talking about what we see on the monitor, as yes, that would make every game 3D. Doom is not 3D in the same way as Quake (or any modern game) is 3D. Not just because it uses sprites, as System Shock does as well, but it's 3D.
>>343150416
Then it's a 3D game being rendered in 2D due to the orthographic camera, you dingus.
>>343150176
the environments aren't 3d, either. doom map data only exists in two dimensions (birds eye). all doom really does is draw walls then put a texture on the floor and ceiling. the walls aren't actually any sort of three dimension data. imagine you drawing out a level using lines from a birds eye view. that's what doom levels' data looks like. now think about it. does this represent 3d dimensions? no, it doesn't. when the renderer is rendering the walls, all it's doing is placing vertical slices of pixels along that 2 dimensional floor plan, scaling down the slices that would be farther away from the viewer. does it look 3d? sure. does that mean it's a 3d engine? no
>>343150552
mmm thats some good bait
>>343150641
Meant it would make every game 2D.
>>343150592
2.5D means a full two dimensions and a limited third dimension. This perfectly describes dooms rendereing capabilites as its raytracer can only render 2D shapes with a ceiling and floor height instead of any 3D shape like Quake or any other full 3D renderers
>>343150592
shut the fuck up you're wrong
>>343150710
>doom map data only exists in two dimensions
As i've said before, nobody is arguing that Doom's maps aren't 3D.
That doesn't change the fact that the game has a z-axis and uses it for calculations, and you can dodge fireballs vertically.
The maps are 2D but the engine is 3D.
the engine is 2d, this thread is bait
stop replying to bait.
>inb4 'but you replied'
-_-
>>343150806
>limited third dimension
the third dimension isn't limited though, only the maps themselves are.
>>343150883
levels are 2d, engine is 3d
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Z-clipping
>>343150717
Woah there, why so opinionated?
>>343150845
moving a sprite up and down doesn't mean a game's engine is 3d
>>343150592
okay """"""henry"""""" whatever you say
>>343150936
object physics = 3D
map layout and rendering = 2.5D
>>343150987
>moving something on the x, y, and z axis simultaneously and also rendering it's collision using three axis doesn't mean the game's engine is 3D
are you reading what you are typing or are you just retarded?
>>343142991
Who the fuck cares
>>343150689
It's not a 3d game, I fucking created it. You've never had to struggle with 3d rendering, so shut your retarded mouth up and go back to blindly buying shit without worrying about what goes on behind the curtains.
>>343151061
Yes, that's what I said.
The engine itself can handle the z-axis as you just admitted, making Doom 3D.
Is this 3D? Why or why not?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG_OabpUzjM
>>343150936
>>343150987
>>343151096
I think you all fail to understand that physics and rendering are two seperate parts of a game's engine
Doom is 3D because it was one of the first games to give the impression of 3D
No game back then was ever considered 2D or 3D based on engines or movement, only on perspective.
Doom is 3D; only underage people think otherwise.
/thread
>>343146806
holy shit nigga i haven't played this since i was 10 and had completely forgot about it up to now
this game was frenetic
>>343151203
what's an "engine"? Rendering is part of an engine and Doom's renderer can't do full 3D
>>343150179
>IT IS NOT 3D JUST BECAUSE IT LOOKS 3D
But it does, stupid. 3D was never about polygons, now stop letting some youtube faggot tell you what to believe.
>>343151332
But it does do full 3D. It just has the limitation of not being able to render something under something else.
>>343150423
BSP is not inherently 2D
Tell me, what file format is Quake maps?
>>343151180
You just said it has a z-axis, and that objects can move between X, Y, and Z.
How is that not 3D?
Anyone can make a 2D game with 3D gameplay using an orthographic camera.
>>343151332
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_engine
>The core functionality typically provided by a game engine includes a rendering engine (“renderer”) for 2D or 3D graphics, a physics engine or collision detection (and collision response), sound, scripting, animation, artificial intelligence, networking, streaming, memory management, threading, localization support, scene graph, and may include video support for cinematics.
The rendering itself may be just horizontal raycasting, but that doesn't change the fact objects collide and react on a functional z-axis in-game.
Doom is 3D.
>>343151254
By this logic Earth is flat because back then it was all perspective
>>343151226
if you're going to be that asinine, you could argue that many obviously 2d snes games are 3d games as long as they have and manage depth information for any sort of item and monster, despite the fact that what you're looking at is obviously two dimensional. that's still wrong
>>343151469
no it doesn't, it can only draw surfaces that go straight up and down
>>343151505
when you use the term "3D game engine" you mean an engine that can render graphics in full 3D, which Doom can't
>>343151482
It can have any number of dimensions, Doom's implementation just uses 2
>>343151607
Firstly; Apples and oranges
Second; Not a proper use of the logic used to define 2D and 3D as of the time of Dooms (and previous early 3D games) release
Think before you post next time
>>343151634
Usually it's just 5 or 6 different planes that they are on that they are flagged to be part of one of.
Doom treads z-axis coordinates and movement no difference than x or y-axis coordinates: both have speed, momentum, position, and bounding box checking to see if it will fit
>>343142991
reminder that if you think Doom is 2D you're agreeing with gay theory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb6Eo1D6VW8
the maps are 2D sure, but the game has a functional z-axis for projectiles, making the game itself 3D.
>>343151713
>when you use the term "3D game engine" you mean an engine that can render graphics in full 3D
No I don't.
>>343151634
when someone says 3D they usually mean 3D graphics but it's technically correct to say something has 3D physics and this tread is all about being pedantic anyway
>>343151784
you're right. details are gay and for fags. who wants to bother with learning how things work? that's fag stuff lol. me clueless gamer it me who is right
Daily reminder that this is a 2D game because there's no grass rooms above another grass room.
>all these underage kids
Growing up playing a wide selection of games I can understand how you can be so ignorant to gaming you dont understand the history of it, but pretending Doom is not 3D is moronic.
2.5D is a modern invention, you can retroactively apply it to Doom if you want but you are completely missing the point of what these new 3D games were about.
>>343151906
then you're not really using the term correctly, like >>343151634 says if you call some SNES game 3D just because it has some 3D physics calculations you're being an idiot
>>343151982
if you care about details, then why don't you read, nigga?
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Z-clipping
http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Autoaim
Doom is 3D.
>>343152091
you don't even know what you read fucking means
>>343152080
>if you call some SNES game 3D just because it has some 3D physics calcuations
I will definitely call a SNES game 3D if it has 3D physics calculations.
Unless you're going to say that Star Fox wasn't 3D?
And why are you saying I'm not using the term correctly?
The definition on the wikipedia page clearly includes physics and collision in it.
>>343152289
Where can I read a definition about reading, then?
>>343152070
>2.5D is a modern invention
>>343152367
Please find a reference to 2.5D from the 90s in relation to gaming
>>343152342
are you really going to tell me pic related is an example of a 3d game
>>343152486
Depends, does it have physics and collision that utilizes all three axis?
If it does, then sure.
>>343152461
I'm raising the stakes, try to find it in 2000-2010.
>>343152342
Starfox uses 3D polygonal models dumbass, it's full 3D, unlike Doom
If you attach the term 2D/3D to game engine you're talking about it's rendering capabilites
not even arguing with you folks at the moment since you are assuming things that are plain wrong, the reason people think doom is 2d is the map rendering, it is projected 2d to LOOK 3d.
no one is saying its not 'a 3d game', its a technical detail. going 'hurr durr look at this moron' doesn't make you more right about it.
>>343152705
>you're talking about it's rendering capabilities
No I'm not, I'm talking about it's gameplay, the part that puts the GAME into game engine.
>>343145418
>Because the engine has no true concept of height, only the illusion of it
Except that's not fucking true. The game has auto-aiming on the z-axis instead of allowing you to aim vertically, and it's true that the maps are designed in two dimensions, but all sectors and actors have z-axis values.
Projectiles can pass over your head and not harm you. Things can move above you. It's a 3D engine.
>>343152786
then you're using the term differently to literally everyone else on the planet so you might aswell consider yourself delusional
>>343152705
No.
Its about what dimensions you can view and move in.
2D, 3D etc are spacial tiers.
>>343152901
If you sell someone a "3D game engine" and it can only draw 2D graphics what you're doing is going to be considered misleading
>>343152705
>If you attach the term 2D/3D to game engine you're talking about it's rendering capabilites
In modern games, not in relation to Doom or older games.
>>343151784
holy shit this guy is retarded
>see, i'm shooting ABOVE this guy's head
>yet all of my bullets are hitting him, because the game isn't calculating heights
Then how the fuck does the game manage to draw the enemy sprite in a way that it looks like he is above him?
>>343152901
Considering there is a current height variable in Doom in order to draw the environment and enemies properly compared to where you are, what you said means Doom is 3D
>>343152486
No, because the different planes are just something that is toggled between without any interaction between them.
Doom height is just coordinates, just like its x and y coordinates. It's not an arbitrary "you can't get hit by that guy up there because he's on a different plane" but actually because the attacks follow 3D physics and can therefore collide with a floor or go over your head.
Does it really matter?
>>343142991
That's a fucking Source port you idiot.
It's made in a 3D engine unlike the original doom, of course it's fucking 3D
>>343152878
>then you're using the term differently to literally everyone else on the planet
Please tell me where game engine is defined as its graphics rendering?
Because if I want to talk about a game's rendering ability, I would use the term "rendering"
If I wanted to talk about a game engine in it's entirety and whether it has 3D collision and physics, I would use the term "game engine"
You've constantly used the term rendering yourself, if game engine meant rendering, why didn't you use the term "game engine" instead?
>>343153174
Not the point, junior
>>343153174
While it's true it's GZDoom he is doing nothing gameplaywise that was impossible in stock Doom
>>343153174
But you can walk off of an elevator in the original doom you dumb ass.
>>343152991
Then what is a 2D game with polygons?
Side scrollers can be rendered with polygons can be exclusively 2D.
>>343153031
>Considering there is a current height variable in Doom in order to draw the environment and enemies properly compared to where you are, what you said means Doom is 3D
That's exactly what I'm saying.
>>343153174
So... the elevator isn't there in the non-port version?
>>343153238
This.
I disabled everything including mouselook so it's basically vanilla doom, just with higher res.
>>343153113Source?
>arguing that it is or isn't
you're still playing it on a 2d screen regardless, it's ALL an illusion
like you're mum
>>343153378
>Then what is a 2D game with polygons?
A 2D game? Polygons don't mean 3D. You can have a 3D renderer that renders other objects like points or voxels or lines or whatever, people just use polygons because it's the most suitable shape for 3D
>>343149815
Isn't that actually true in Doom 64 though?
>>343153828
No, Doom 64 maps are still 2D.
>>343153828
From the moment you have a variable that is used to store your height, it means you can go up and down.
Wolfeinstein is faking 3D because it doesn't have variables for the Z-axis. Every sprite is drawn so that it looks to be at the right place, it doesn't have to calculate any 3D.
Doom on the other hand has Z-axis variable for movable platforms, you, enemies, healthpacks or anything that you can pick up. And as implied in the name, those variables are variables. So when you decrease the Z-axis variable of your character, you do go up. And when you increase it, you do go down.
>>343153886
>>343154089
I just remember somebody explaining a glitch in Doom 64 once that had to do with the fact that when you move vertically, it's actually the map shifting up and down rather than the player moving on a Z-axis, and that this could be shown by skipping certain triggers and freaking the map out.
I don't know if this has been posted already, and I know that this thread is almost entirely trolls, but here is a definitive video for anyone wondering.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb6Eo1D6VW8
It's 2.5D. Doom uses an illusion using 2D panels to make it's world look 3D, which amazed everyone back in the day. Quake was the first game where everything was made out of 3D polygons.
>>343142991
it looks 3d
its technically done with 2d methods
but fuck off its 3d for all gaming purposes
Just as Cave Story for 3DS is a 2D game, despite being presented to the player as a central projection onto the screen of seemingly 3D world, Doom is also a 2D game, despite being presented to the player as a central projection onto the screen of seemingly 3D world. Each entity in either of those game can be identified by a set of two coordinates, not three.
>>343154529
Again, polygons isn't what makes a game 3D.
>this isn't 3d
>>343154656
>Each entity in either of those game can be identified by a set of two coordinates, not three.
There is a height coordinate in doom for each entity so you are wrong
You are also wrong about cavestory as 3D doesn't mean being able to move on the 3 axis but only them being present. You can see the environment and any model on the 3 axis in cave story.
>>343155015
>There is a height coordinate in doom for each entity so you are wrong
If you read my post carefully you'll notice I said "can be identified" and not "has".
Your second paragraph is just complete gibberish. Read what you wrote before pressing that submit button.
>>343155215
>If you read my post carefully you'll notice I said "can be identified" and not "has".
What's the difference exactly?
Entities have Z coordinates but you refuse to identify the entity by the three coordinates by choosing to forget the Z one?
>>343155359
The difference is that you're able to identify them using X and Y, without using Z coordinate. You are not able to identify them using X and Z - there are situations where two entities will have same X and Z coords.
>>343147534
giddy up
Here's something to think about:
The game is not "really" 3D unless if it is running on hardware fully capable of accelerated 3D rendering (perspective correct textures, z-buffer, hardware T&L, etc.)
Systems like the Saturn and the PSXweren't truly 3D systems, that Saturn even less so b/c of the way it did 3D (distorting sprites into a quad to fake a 3D shape).
The N64 was the first truly 3D hardware, thus their games were legit 3D.
Based on the standards mentioned above, PCs couldn't have truly 3D games until ~2000 when graphics cards with hardware T&L came out.
>>343155670
>The game is not "really" 3D unless if it is running on hardware fully capable of accelerated 3D rendering
I disagree with that.
The world must be 3D internally, and the player must have capacity to utilize all three dimensions to full extent.
How it's presented to player is of little matter.
