![Parkin-WhyDidHideoKojimaLeaveKonami-1200[2].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/SRtehPm.jpg "Parkin-WhyDidHideoKojimaLeaveKonami-1200[2].jpg")
>OPM: Have you heard of [film critic] Roger Ebert's assessment that videogames can never be viewed as art? How do you feel about that?
>Hideo Kojima: I don't think they're art either, videogames. The thing is, art is something that radiates the artist, the person who creates that piece of art. If 100 people walk by and a single person is captivated by whatever that piece radiates, then it's art. But videogames aren't trying to capture one person. A videogame should make sure that all 100 people that play the game should enjoy the service provided by that videogame. It's something of service. It's not art. But I guess the way of providing service with that videogame is an artistic style, a form of art.
Is he, dare I say it, right?
video games were a mistake
all he ever wanted to make is kino
He didn't actually say anything
Kojimer needs to not smoke that Del Toro grade weed before doing interviews
>>342832501
TLDR subjective interpretations of what art is.
What fucking ever who gives a shit.
>>342832773
Actually what he managed to say was " I don't understand the idea of art".
art or CIA psyop?
>>342832945
illuminate our ignorance with your wisdom o great artisan of the arts
>>342832945
This.
To quote Penny Arcade, "If a hundred artists create art for five years, how could the result not be art?"
>in after someone says graphic artists, character artists, sound artists, lighting artists, texture artists, 3d artists, writers, directors, voice actors, motion capture actors, and composers aren't artists
>"Hideo was a mistake" - Kojima
He's right, but for the wrong reason. Art is a single persons vision, or perhaps a vision of a VERY small but like minded group. This is why works created by a single person (literature, paintings, sculptures) are considered art, while things that were created by a large team or committee (films, games, television) are not considered art.
With this in mind, films and games can be art, but they must be created by an individual, or a small group at most. Normally though, said artistic films and games tend to be shit as even though its a single persons focused vision, one person alone is never going to be able to create a product as solid as a team of 200 could.
>>342832501
roger ebert never played The Last of Us.
>>342832501
No, this is a logic trap. He is correct only contextually, if you accept that games are a service, then he is correct. If you reject this assertion, then he is incorrect.
The guy who made Cave Story never had to care if anyone liked his game, he made what he wanted to and without seeking to sell it, it was never anything more than a personal expression. Kojima has never had this luxury, when he makes a game, it's an investment, and people want returns on their investments, hence, games as service.
You can't market something that is free with no strings attached, but you absolutely must market something with millions of dollars put into it if you plan on making many millions more off of it. Through this marketing, which includes meddling with the development of the game to make it more marketable, alienation occurs. An alienated product can hardly be called an artistic work, even if artwork is within it.
I don't think his definition of art is right. I mean, when Picasso made Guernica he wanted to express the terrible effects of war. And he wanted as much people as possible to understand it, not one, not one hundred. In that way, it should fit his idea of a videogame appealing to as many people as possible.
Plus, he ends his answer with an half assed assertion, like "videogames aren't art but the act of making videogames is art". That's not how it works. He almost seems to imply he, the author, is more important than the game itself, when they should be on the same level.
I am sure Kojima also believes movies are art, when they followthesame logic of "they are created to appeal to all those 100 people".
Also, post the source next time.
>>342833429
pretty much
you can say something is bad art or something lacks artistic value but that doesn't mean it's not art
It's the same kind of logic trap people fall into when talking about horror. Like when someone says "well this isn't scary so it's not really horror"
if video games aren't art then why is roger ebert dead
One Punch Man had an interview with Kojima?
>>342833429
That's because people are retarded and call crafts "art"
Define art.
>even Kojimbo says video games aren't art
How can one man be so based?
>>342834298
he also said TLOU has the most revolutionary and best gameplay ever
>art is something that radiates the artist
>Kojima's games all radiate him
???
>>342833942
It's his retarded, arbitrary definition of "what is art". Just as retarded as >>342833480
Plenty of artists create art just for the money, whether in the literal sense of being commissioned by a patron (as in, from the Middle Ages, not just the sexual deviants from Patreon) or in the less literal sense of producing art to be sold by their art dealer.
>>342834357
[citation needed]
>OPM: Have you heard of [film critic] Roger Ebert's assessment that videogames can never be viewed as art?
He recanted that statement on his deathbed, though.
>>342834357
i thought he said this on uncharted 4?
>>342834438
im sure you can dig it up, he said he took the dynamic melee in that to make MGSV
>>342834481
I hope his last words were "Trolled......softly..."
Art is bogus anyway.
It's like value, it exist because people believe it exists. There is nothing objectively valuable about a Picasso painting, it's valuable because people have decided it's valuable.
You can put a toilet on a pedestal and people will call it art, and it by definition it is. Because that's how art works.
>Are videogames art
This discussion is people who want to make videogames seem more culturally important, and people who want to deride videogames, Actually Literally arguing semantics. They are literally arguing about the definition of 'what is an art', purely for the sake of argument. Getting denied 'art status' isn't going to stop cowadoody from selling 10 million units, and getting 'art status' isn't going to make "My Dad Abused Me When I Was 12: The Game" more popular.
>>342834272
Creating beyond the edge of the known. In that regard games have the most potential out of the standard creative outlets.
>>342834002
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/news240106kojimaart
>>342834586
I don't remember him saying that in particular, but I'd believe it, he's always openly sucked off ND's output the last decade.
>>342834676
Hirst's entire career is based on fucking with art critics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_Love_of_God
>art is something that radiates the person who creates the art
Shut up Kojima. Just because nipland is always two or three movements behind western art doesn't mean you can ignore the tenents of post-modernism in such a global society.
>>342834481
He simply didn't have the guts to die and be remembered for saying something dumb.
He basically said "games are not art. Yet. Maybe some time in the future.". Which is just a way to pussy out.
>>342834794
kojimer is a westaboo anyway
>>342834676
>Everything is art
And this is the moment when the thread needs to be nuked.
The fact that videogames are art or not is a completely personal statement that cannot be objectively demonstrated if not within the framework of one's personal dialectic. Arguing about it is pointless, since nobody is going to change his very world view due to some anonymous post about videogames
>>342834895
If he's such a westaboo why doesn't he move to the USA? Checkmate.
>>342834974
I'm sure he would if he didn't have a shitty wife and shittier son
>>342834680
Perception is reality.
The Nazis thought modern art was degenerate, that view point justified censoring and destroying it.
Viewing video games as a degenerate, second class, substandard form of non-art has (arguably) kept it from enjoying the benefits of freedom of expression that are more often awarded to works of "art".
To put it another way: it's okay to have a woman shitting in a toilet in a museum because that's "ART" and we have to protect the artist's freedom of expression. But it's not okay to have a naked butt in a video game, that's wrong and it's filthy and just because you have to pay to see it doesn't mean you should be ALLOWED to see it, think of the children.
>>342834895
And yet he still is an idiot because he doesn't understand the very fundamental principle, and possibly the only to come from, post modernism is the notion that art and its meaning is not defined solely be the artist.
>>342832501
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
>>342832501
By that logic movies aren't art either.
Where is the /v/ archive? can someone link it?
>>342835080
>post modernism
>>342832501
he clearly has an opinion, a wrong option, but an opinion nonetheless. video games are an artform through and through. it's got everything that incorporates art, it even brings on emotions for people. people can get lost in video games, live vicariously and even relate. It's art, people need to stop trying to redefine a word so it suits what they believe. call it something else...a bullshit opinion to seem like an intellectual on the subject. it's all pretentious if you ask me
>>342834917
>Arguing about it is pointless, since nobody is going to change his very world view due to some anonymous post about videogames
You don't know who or what could be or will be reading this.
>>342832501
no. art doesn't have a definition so you can't go down the checklist and confirm if it meets or doesn't meet the requirements.
and what if just one person makes a game? A sole project that they did everything for.
>>342835236
fireden.net
>>342835342
But it became a feminist after they turned off its ability to learn.
>>342835274
Please don't reply to things you don't understand or don't even bother to fully read.
>>342835072
>t's okay to have a woman shitting in a toilet in a museum because that's "ART" and we have to protect the artist's freedom of expression. But it's not okay to have a naked butt in a video game, that's wrong and it's filthy and just because you have to pay to see it doesn't mean you should be ALLOWED to see it, think of the children.
I think that has more to do with marketability. Studios want to make bank and will leave anything that could have a negative impact on sales out of their projects. There's plenty of indie, minor projects full of "degenerate" content
>>342832501
Everything a human makes reflects a part of themselves. For video games: vision, idea of fun, story, music, setting etc. For movies: Acting, camera work, attention to detail etc.
That's why he said this.
>>342832945
>>342835462
>>342835210
most movies aren't artistic, even that faggot Ebert shared this understanding
>>342835587
>>342835072
>Perception is reality.
That's just your personal philosophy
>The Nazis thought modern art was degenerate, that view point justified censoring and destroying it.
>Viewing video games as a degenerate, second class, substandard form of non-art has (arguably) kept it from enjoying the benefits of freedom of expression that are more often awarded to works of "art".
No, what limits videogames freedom of expression is having to appeal to a broad, popular market (just like any other form of entertainment) instead of a restricted one made up of a clique of art critics and merchants that collude to artificially inflate the value of determinate artists
>To put it another way: it's okay to have a woman shitting in a toilet in a museum because that's "ART" and we have to protect the artist's freedom of expression. But it's not okay to have a naked butt in a video game, that's wrong and it's filthy and just because you have to pay to see it doesn't mean you should be ALLOWED to see it, think of the children.
When was the last time we saw a naked women in a high-budget Hollywood movie?
>>342832501
I think that is pretty well said. Some games undoubtedly try to convey artistic talent and emotion, but I wouldn't compare them to art in the traditional sense. If you can make a game that appeals to most people, satisfies them, and provides the necessary service to ensure repeat business I would agree with Hideo in that regard too.
>>342833480
Films are considered art by the majority, though.
Art is nothing, really.
If anything, you could define it as "the result of someone not being able to tell what it is that they like about this specific thing (painting, movie, videogame, feces...)"
Of course, since few people can tell what it is they like, art tendencies became a thing, telling people with no taste what is good now
Since media and culture said X was good, people started to buy it. And so, artist started to follow those standards, so their work would sell well
So yes, it is a service, but it all depends of what you mean by "art"
>>342832501
make up your fucking mind you stupid shit, if you use an artistic style then you are making art, if you make a service you are tailoring a product
>>342835210
No medium is inherently artistic
>>342835342
>censor "fucking"
>on a nameless malaysian coconut carving board.
>>342835451
is down
>>342835672
Females are considered equal by the majority as well, but that doesn't make it true.
>argumentum ad populum
>2016
Really makes you think.
>>342833429
You are correct about the artists, but videogames are still a service.
A good analogy would be equating videogames with a museum or gallery, which is nothing but a service that groups various art and showcases it, you can take the score of a videogame and enjoy it on its own as art.
>>342835764
I'm pretty sure he wasn't the one who censored that image, anon.
>>342835867
>You're doing a thing? In the current year?
Modern definitions of "art" are bullshit anyway
>>342835764
You're fvcking r3tarded, that pic is from google image search
Why do people pretend Kojima has depth?
>>342835869
The first thing we lose is our connection to human beings, and we make tools to start working.
>>342835869
I didn't know Kojima hired Jaden Smith to write his twitter.
>>342836094
Your image is more striking due to irony than anything else.
Whoever argues for or against the "videogames are art" argument is dumb.
And not because videogames can't be art, because "art" doesn't exist and it's just subjective, because everything is art or other silly as fuck shit you read in these threads.
Saying "this medium is art" is the biggest mistake you can make. "Movies are art" makes no sense. "Some movies are art" actually makes sense.
And if you are asking, no, not all painting are art either. There is a huge difference between a crafted thing and a piece of art. And I hope you won't come out of the wood and ask what the difference is, because you'll just show you are in a thread like this without knowing what you are talking about.
If illustrations, sculpting, literature, cinema, music, etc can be considered art individually, why could the product of all of them out together not considered art? Is it because it's still considered a new medium?
>>342832501
BASED
The devs who take themselves too seriously always make shit games
>>342832501
No, he's retarded, creating music is an art and it attempts to capture however many people are listening to it. Kojima is also dumb enough to say man invented the stick so it's safe to say he's a fucking moron nobody should take seriously.
>>342836312
Art has been "ironic" since the '50s
>>342832501
I felt like I read this interview in a magazine over ten years ago
>OPM
I did! right?
>>342834676
>It's like value, it exist because people believe it exists. There is nothing objectively valuable about a Picasso painting, it's valuable because people have decided it's valuable.
Some paintings, films, etc have value because of their insight into history
>>342832501
Now if only he'd realize that videogames aren't films
>>342832501
I don't know why people want video games to be associated with art in the first place.
>>342836416
>>342836450
>x medium is art
How to tell if a poster is American
>>342836325
Yeah not everything has an artistic purpose. Some people do things for other reasons.
>>342836416
Unlike most of what you named, video games don't have a history of artistic expression.
>>342832501
There isn't 1 type of videogames. If we use his analogy then there still are games that are art but most of the current games aren't art.
The obsession on making video games "art" is cancerous. Just focus on making a good video game.It's like how Nietzsche described that Greek plays went to shit when playwrights started trying to insert moral messages instead of actually trying to tell a good story.
It's like how the obsession with authenticity is killing black metal.
>>342832501
MGS2 is art.
>>342836613
They have value as a historical document then, not as an artistic expression
MGSV was the complete opposite of previous mgs though, all gameplay
ITT
>failure-at-life artfags try to sound intelligent
go back to your community colleges
>>342836442
>A Hideo Kojima gane
>Directed by Hideo Kojima
>Produced by Hideo Kojima
>Written by Hideo Kojima
>Inspired by the works of Hideo Kojima
>Special thanks to Hideo Kojima
Nobody takes themselves more seriously than this jap
>>342836651
Sculpting is exclusively considered an art. People rarely do it for any other reason.
>>342836636
It doesn't depend by random people. It depends by who creates a videogame.
>>342836450
Don't worry your family never takes you serious, and finds your efforts to be pathetic as another part of your worthless character.
>>342836748
Too bad it had not a single level better than its own demo and it flopped so hard it became a slot machine
>>342835869
>the umbilical cord is a stick
That's retarded. The umbilical cord is more like an electric cord than a stick-it's a direct pathway between the baby's blood supply and the mother's blood supply, the only thing providing the infant with energy and oxygen. Once the baby is born and it takes it's first breath, a series of changes spontaneously occur in the baby's heart to adapt to breathing for itself (if all things go well).
>>342836928
>what are figurines
>what are toys
>what are prototypes
>what is decoration
>>342835653
>That's just your personal philosophy
Actually, it's an economic axiom.
>What limits video games is appealing to the lowest common denominator
No, what limits video games is shit like the Australian Communications and Media Authority refusing to rate a game, thereby prohibiting its sale in Australia
>When was the last time we saw a naked women in a high-budget Hollywood movie?
http://www.imdb.com/list/ls070980506/
And anyway, your example just proves my point that some art mediums (films, movies, TV) are considered a lower class of art than "high art" and are not afforded the same protections.
>>342836937
Awful lot of projection there
>>342832501
>shadow of the colossus
>planescape torment
>not art
Fuck off kojimbo. You never played any games.
>>342836928
People sculpting figurines of videogames and anime characters for comic convemtions aren't making art. They are making a good looking good. But not a piece of art.
>>342834420
That matters very little if the artist is still in control of the product. As long as the artist is expressing themselves without being told how to do it, or coerced in some way, then you're still getting the artist in the piece, and not just what some other guys thought you would want. Now, this brings up the nature of capitalism, and is it even possible to express oneself through anything done commercially, but that is an argument for another day. Lets just say that Kojima is not being arbitrary, he is just stating his view on what constitutes a proper work of art, and he's not incorrect in his views, they're just one way to look at it all. His views have been shaped by his reality, not some book, and not what other people have told him. They're as truthful as anything could be.
>>342836727
But don't you know anon? "Fun" is a social construct and is therefore bad, but since I'm an uncultured piece of shit that spent his life consuming entertainment I cannot conceive any other form of expressing for my shallow thoughts to other morons other than videogames. Therefore, to solve this dilemma and salve myself from the bad feelings that would come from realizing that I spent countless hours on what is ultimately worthless, I declare videogames to be art and worthy of praise by the art critics I feel so inferior to
>>342836989
You're arguing with people who suck this man's dick so hard it cuts off circulation to their already imbecilic brains that they think a dried up video game dev is done sort of genius when he's never written a single coherent script in his life.
>>342836521
Based on the shitposting scrawled on the walls of Pompeii, I'm confident there's some grecko-roman irony vases whose humor is lost on us
>>342832501
That sounds like a bad, limited definition of art.
>>342837289
stay mad, you cuck. death stranding will be a breath of fresh air in this stale AAA industry.
>video games are a service
>books and films aren't
>>342835940
That's nonsense. By that logic, film isn't art either.
>>342837256
That what I hate about a lot of the people who hand-wringing over wanting video games to be art. It just screams "NOTICE ME SENPAI!", from people who subscribe to the childish belief that they need approval from their peers and perceived social betters.
>>342836663
Video games are only ~40 years old man. Still a new medium
>>342836727
A good videogame has more chances to be art than a bad or average one.
>>342837458
Well, yeah, obviously.
>>342837446
Such a lust tosuck hack dick
Beware of posts like:
>Everything is art
>Nothing is art
>>342837052
>Actually, it's an economic axiom.
It's a marketing one, don't mix science and what basically amounts to applied con-art
>No, what limits video games is shit like the Australian Communications and Media Authority refusing to rate a game, thereby prohibiting its sale in Australia
A lot of movies have been banned from sales in many countries, that didn't stop them from being made
>http://www.imdb.com/list/ls070980506/
None of those movies are high-budget blockbusters
>And anyway, your example just proves my point that some art mediums (films, movies, TV) are considered a lower class of art than "high art" and are not afforded the same protections.
You are contradicting yourself, first you say that movies actually have "taboo" themes like frontal nudity, hell your list there even has Pasolini's Salo, and then you say that they are not afforded the same protection as "high" arts?
Videogames are not allowed the same degree of freedom by some evil boogieman, but by the market, which is mostly made up of children and people only interested in shallow entertainment
>>342833105
Looks like shit, wouldnt hang on my wall
>>342833105
Jewish scam
>>342836325
>words are subjective
Wow, it's almost like they're mere signs and stand-ins for things as opposed to the actual things themselves.
Brilliant Anon, bravo. By the way, artisan craftsmen craft art.
>>342834182
Its the same thing.
Art requires work, ALWAYS
>>342837562
That's what I mean, I guess. If you set out thinking "I'm going to make something amazing" odds are you won't since you're probably overestimating your abilities. If you set to make something with effort AND skill, and push yourself while not exceeding your grasp you're more likely to make something worthwhile.
It's laughable that a person who considers films art does not consider videogames art.
>>342837865
>Art requires work, ALWAYS
That just means that all art is some form of craft, not that all crafts are automatically art
>>342834808
Roger Ebert was a paid reviewer, how do people respect him or ever did?
>>342837587
Then you have a nonsensical definition of art.
The soundtrack of a film may be art on its own. But in the context of the film, it becomes a part of a different piece of art. The experience of the soundtrack of Once Upon A Time In The West as you watch the film is different than it is when you listen to it on its own, without having watched the film.
Film as art appears when several different elements form a new context. It's the same with video games.
You could argue (as Tarkovsky did) that film has a completely unique artistic quality that no other artform contains, as it portrays time aesthetically, and that the different elements of music, colour and writing simply support this quality. But that's a different discussion.
>>342832501
>A videogame should make sure that all 100 people that play the game should enjoy the service provided by that videogame
Nope, he's actually cancer. This is what leads to lowest common denominator tripe.
>>342837953
Especially when his reason for explaining why games are not art can be applied to movies to.
>>342837953
>a person who considers films art
We're not on /tv/, no need for such stupid statements.
>>342837229
>and he's not incorrect in his views
Just because his retarded example confirms to his retarded criteria doesn't make it a sound view.
>His views have been shaped by his reality, not some book, and not what other people have told him.
Everyone is shaped by the people around them and the things that happened before them. People who literally grow up in total isolation are incapable of communicating.
I know you're just trying to imply that what I'm saying is unoriginal, and that he is a glorious originator of Perfect Forms, but that's some retarded fanboy shit and you know it.
>>342838070
>you should make videogames that some people dont like
you're a retard
>>342834974
Job. Nobody would pay him as much as he scammed Konami for with the trash he produces. He probably took a huge cut with Sony and it's still more than he's worth
>>342832501
Doesn't the word "art" just make you roll your eyes? This century won't be acknowledged "artistically" until death permutates our memory into a foundation for a future generation's ego. noedge
>>342838217
Yes?
You can never appeal to everyone.
>>342832501
Who cares if videogames are art when 99% of modern games are fucking garbage?
>>342836613
Considering insight into history as a thing of value is still something attributed by people. It's not innately there, It's determined arbitrarily to be valuable.
>>342838010
But all crafts require some form of determation to make it good art/craft.
And who fucking is deciding whats art and what not?
There is no human bean on earth qualified to do so
>>342837256
>>342837475
So long as video games are regarded as an inferior form of art by the masses and those that govern them, they will be treated as an inferior form of art.
It's not just about brownie points or whatever the fuck you pedants are sucking each other off over.
wtf is art
>>342838096
Ebert's on record for not considering videogames art.
What's stupid about stating a fact?
>>342832501
>implying gameplay isn't an art
KOJIMA CAN'T INTO AESTHETICS
>>342838070
This. I think it is why Kojima's games have been going down the shitter. He thinks he needs to please everyone.
>>342838062
>Transformers, BvS, Avengers, Ninja Turtles, Hunger Games, Twilight are all by definition art
>But only when we add all the different art elements to form a new context for art
>Because I read it somewhere and simply believe it
The very concept of films being art is fucking retarded.
You might as well accept abstract/modern "artwork" as art, if we're to devalue the entire idea of art.
Good quote from Kojima imo
IIRC, Ebert's argument was that the player is only ever invested in tasks, no matter how good the story, and that any non-playable story exposition (cutscenes) would be better served by film. Personally I think he is focussing on an emotional reaction and missing/downplaying the visceral, but it's still a good point.
The argument against Kojima would be indie publishers and developers that make games for small audiences and indeed themselves
>>342838393
>But all crafts require some form of determation to make it good art/craft.
What does effort even have to do with art
>And who fucking is deciding whats art and what not?
And who are you to do the same? I was just saying that your logic was nonsensical from a merely formal point of view
>>342838430
That's what you got from that comment?
Jesus, this board is actually full of retards, amazing.
>>342838454
If that's true then apehoop is more of an art than any game Kojima has made
>>342837457
But Anon, what IS a service? What IS democracy?
Video games are not art. It's an entertainment medium.
When you play an "art game", you're usually not playing a game at all. There's interactivity, but they usually have no tangible goal for the player and the interactions are only there to serve the purposes of the narrative.
It's also worth noting that art doesn't mean "quality". Robocop isn't art, Tremors isn't art, Ghostbusters isn't art. But they are all great entertainment.
>>342838621
Sports don't provide aesthetic gameplay, and even if they did it would be shit.
>>342838393
>And who fucking is deciding whats art and what not?
>There is no human bean on earth qualified to do so
Why people like you exist. Your relativism makes me want to puke. Following your reasoning your post and this very post are neither right or wrong. Because nobody can jedge them.
But actually it's easy to spot a person that studied art and its history very badly and pretends to be an expert behind a post like that.
>>342838503
All art is not good art. You are a silly person.
Also:
>Because I read it somewhere and simply believe it
Actually I formed that view myself, please tell me how it is wrong.
Are you going to tell me that if someone watches a film without sound, and then listens to the soundtrack without the film image, he has had the same experience as someone who watched them together?
If you say yes, I may have to discount you as being an idiot.
I don't care if video games are art or not just don't fucking censor them. They are free expression and shouldn't be censored.
>>342838887
You are just shifting the question by introducing a bad/good art distinction and not explaining what you mean by that
>>342838849
But good and bad doesnt exist, you decide for yourself whats good or bad there is no hivemind.
And i never studied art
>>342838785
Provoking any sort of reaction out of the audience may be considered entertainment, and not all entertainment has to be just dumb fun
Can we all agree that regardless if the piece within music, film, games etc is art or not that they're all still artforms?
When it boils down to the simplest level I see art as something that contains a creator's expression in it. This expression can come in all shapes and sizes and mediums like games.
>>342838409
People who obsess over wanting games to be high art buy into the childish belief that they can't enjoy children's things for fear of being called childish. It's a bunch of closeted self-loathing manchildren who are upset that movie critics and other movie bigwigs won't take them seriously and they don't get invited to those fancy cocktail parties with their fellow betters of society.
>>342839137
>And i never studied art
You don't say
>>342839137
>But good and bad doesnt exist
That's some radical relativism
Isn't everyone's definition of art different? What is even the point of discussing whether something is art when there's no one definition that everyone believes in?
>>342838849
He's completely correct, don't mistake being baselessly self-righteous for some stance against relativism, no matter how misguided.
>all this pretentious bollocks in this thread
literally who cares they're just games bro.
>>342832501
Of course not. Do you think if 100 people played MGS2, every single one of them is going to completely grasp what it's about? Or do they just think it's a cool spy thriller with wacky characters and a ninja and very long phonecalls from your girlfriend?
MGS, especially 2, is that game meant to captivate the single person, not necessarily all 100 who happen upon it.
Christ, what an asshole.
>>342838807
Stylish animations aren't "aesthetic gameplay" and sports are much moreso aesthetic in terms of activity you have actual authority over
>>342839060
This pretty much, art is a form of speech and expression, and should not be censored. Not making video games a form of "high art" won't make them vulnerable to the moral police.
>>342839406
Literally Youtube comments tier
>>342839284
But its true, the only values existing are the ones you decide.
Right or wrong, good or bad, beautiful or ugly
>>342838516
What miyamoto said is the gameplay IS the story; I.e. The player is creating the story as he jumps on goombas, discovers hidden caverns, etc., which I think destroys eberts argument. It is a way of storytelling only videogames can do. Examples such as Majoras mask and 999; those games tell a story in a way ONLY a videogame, not a film, could.
>>342839264
Calm ur ego, bro
>>342839586
>But its true
How? Your shitty kind of pop-culture relativism does not even work within its own framework since you take the lack of universal truth as a universal truth itself
>>342839502
You retard, aesthetic isn't just what a game looks like, it's how it plays. Super Mario Brothers is art because of the aesthetic value of its gameplay.
>>342839382
Guide me senpai
>>342839496
MGS 2 couldn't get by on the message alone though and that's the point he's making.
The 100 people that played MGS2 still enjoyed it because the gameplay is tight and fun, and as you said at first glance it's a spy thriller.
This is why I like games a lot as an artform because it has room to draw in a casual playerbase and a core playerbase, offering entertainment through fun gameplay and the occasional deeper meanings behind them.
At the end of the day Kojima even acknowledged that videogames were an artform so cut him some slack.
>>342839752
I'd say that the one with the big ego is the one that feels able to discuss about an argument that he knows nothing about
>>342839753
The logical conclusion of this nihilism is that it means a person is free to do what they wish.
>>342839814
Shut up you retarded faggot and stop using words you don't know what they mean before I strangle your retarded ass for being stupid, faggot cock sucker
Aesthetic
adjective
1.
relating to the philosophy of aesthetics; concerned with notions such as the beautiful and the ugly.
>>342839606
The funny thing is that MGS2 also tells it's story in a way only a video game can. It borrows from film but in the end you realize it would have only worked as a game. And no I am not saying only a game can talk about misinformation or some shit, if anyone says that then they are just simplifying what MGS2 was.
>>342839382
No, he's not. Art is something that exists since the birth of human history. People upon people discussed it, pages upon pages have been written about it. And in history there are plenty of people that attempted the "oh my, oh my, everything is subjective, nothing matters" route, just for getting proved wrong by history itself. Oh, but I know, "history has been written by winners, duh", this is what you will say. Well, art exists. And it's not subjective. Yes, it's defined by someone else. And thanks god for that. Thanks god there's someone that had the guts to study art, to make art, to define art. So they could avoid people keep saying stupid shit like "nothing is art, art is subjective!". And people that gave those definitions at least had the decency to study art.
Relativism is dumb. Especially applied to art.
>>342840075
>he doesn't understand the idea of beauty in gameplay
It doesn't LOOK beautiful, it PLAYS beautifully. Dumb nigger.
>>342832501
>A videogame should make sure that all 100 people that play the game should enjoy the service provided by that videogame.
This only applies to commercial games. What about freeware games, Kojima? What about those hobbyist devs who are just trying to share ideas with people?
>>342839284
It takes a special kind of relativism to go past saying that good and evil don't exist, to say good and bad don't exist.
>Kojima's reply not in cute Engrish
Source, nigga.
>>342839753
>universal truth
U wot m8?
Tell me then, define good, bad, right or wrong?
>>342840205
You're autistic and that's one of the most retarded things I've ever read, kill yourself
>>342840243
>What about freeware games, Kojima
bai mai fakingu geimu gaijin no fagotto.
>>342839963
Arent you a special someone? Shouldnt you be able to teach me then instead of belitteling me for your own arguments sake?
What do i need to do to be as gr8 as you, senpai? Guide my lost soul.
>>342840460
he has a translator most of the time you monkey
>>342840565
Do you think that people praise the aesthetic value of poetry because the words look pretty? No, it READS beautifully. It doesn't LOOK beautiful.
>>342840662
>What do i need to do to be as gr8 as you, senpai? Guide my lost soul.
Start by reading some books, you nigger, I'm not payed to tutor your ignorant ass
>>342840139
So are videogames art or not?
>>342832501
Didn't he say they weren't art in a Nintendo Power interview? Used a reference to a piece of art called "the chair that refuses sitting" I think. I agree with him.
>>342840796
No, they praise it for form and allusion, people say certain plays in sports are beautiful because of form and technique. Learn what you're talking about next time retarded faggot.
>>342840139
Art is subjective. It's not like science, where the scientific method has strictly defined rules. Astronomy is science, astrology is not science. That's a fact, and we know this because the definition of the scientific method is such a specific one. Art doesn't have that definition. You can try to define it all you want and force your idea of art on everyone else, but unlike science, you'll never actually have proof to back it up. That's the major destinction here. I can say that heliocentrism is correct and geocentrism is wrong because I can actually prove it with evidence. You can say the mona lisa is art but metal gear solid isn't, but you have no evidence to prove it. You literally just have your delicate little fee-fees and your big, loud mouth and that's all. Unless you discover some magical art particles that only radiate from true art for cultured people like yourself, you're not gonna have any way of measuring artisticness.
And that's why you're a fucking retard.
>>342840882
Good answer, didnt expect more
>Reading books = right to decide whats art and what not
"Art" is just "human expression". It's a label, not a merit. Even if it doesn't radiate anyone it's still art.
Artistic merit is an entirely different thing, which is probably what he meant by art. Artistic merit doesn't have a set definition because its impact is entirely subjective. You could say Beksinski is a better artist than Michelangelo and there would be nothing to say you're right or wrong.
>>342833105
if you squint it looks a bit like shinkawa's drawings
>>342832501
Is this the most uninteresting question that just keeps being repeated over and over again?
>>342840465
In what context do ask him to define good/bad, right/wrong dichotomies? Because in terms of judging art at a context, it would be quite wrong to pick the piece that how less demonstrable technique. And I would argue that it would be bad, because within the framework of this theoretical contests rules, it would be denying the just praise of the more skilled artist.
>>342841050
Sports are not engineered to be beautiful. It's literally a handful of guys thrown into one place and told to play the game. They may be the best at what they do, but the design simply isn't artificial enough to allow it to be artistic.
Gameplay has enough set parameters to provide legitimate aesthetic, artistic value. Every area, ability, and moment is engineered toward a certain form of gameplay, and if that gameplay is good, it offers aesthetic value.
Guillermo del Toro considers video games art, namely Shadow of the Colossus and Ico.
>>342841613
Literally quien?
>>342841342
Technique is pre established and learnable
>>342841484
Wrong, there are a million sports with more aesthetic value than any game can provide. Techniques for skating, skiiing, jumping, coordination and teamwork can come together more dynamically than any game can recreate.
>>342842520
In your opinion maybe. Did you ever make a game? You only refer to playing games it seems to me.
>no source
/v/
>>342832501
He's right, video games are full of game-y nonessential fluff meant to be entertaining despite not contributing to the game as a work of art. Crafting doesn't contribute to the artistic meaning of The Last of Us, it's just there because it's a video game and they want to give you something to do, almost no game is free of this kind of stuff, and we just refer to it as 'video game logic' for shorthand.
>>342832501
The age old philosophical question. What is art?
A waste of time. And the question is a waste of time.
>>342842734
Have you ever invented a sport you retarded faggot?
Kojima is a hack
What I don't get is how "progressive" people call videogames art, yet appeal to censor them at the same time? How can you censor art and don't be upset about it?
>>342832501
All we learned is that he's even more retarded than we thought.
This just implies that movies aren't art either.
Art is anything i do with my vagina(masculine).
>>342843320
are they, anon?
>>342842969
Calm down, buddy. I was just saying you only refer to playing games but not creating, thus thinking games dont need effort or dynamism in its creation, yet again you try to belittle vidya to other older activities.
Great argument
There are games that are genuinely worthy of being called art, but they're fairly obscure because people who play video games are fucking plebs.
>>342832501
Why is One Punch Man asking Jackie Chan about videogames?
>>342843320
If we get into technicalities, not even painting is art. Someone made the tint, someone else made the screen. Or am i going too far now?
>>342843320
No source son
Now I know why mods delete "videogames are art" threads.
>>342836727
Black metal was never good
>>342843282
They try the same thing with films and music as well
>>342843813
Don't hang youreself, anon.
>>342838807
Cricket is aesthetic as fuck
>>342832501
if thats what art is then any form of media trying to be entertainment cant be art.
>>342844072
This
Its not worth it
If Ebert said so then it must be true.
After all, critics are the REAL artists. "Artists" are merely accessories.
>>342832501
Who gives a shit if video games are art or not? What the fuck does it matter?
>>342844684
>citing scaruffi unironically
>>342844684
Based Scaruffi
>>342843627
what game is that?
>it's a /v/ argues about "art" episode
why bother, the only video game art worth giving a shit about is lewds and landscapes
>>342844684
he's right
>>342845021
Pathologic
>>342844684
>>342844794
>>342844941
Memes aside, Scaruffi impresses me.
While some of his stuff is laughable, you've got to respect the sheer depth of knowledge he has in so many different areas.
I don't think there's anyone else in the world who knows as much about so many art forms as he does
>>342843813
They are either pure b8 or full of retards thinking they are and can be right in this topic
Art must must carry man's craving for the ideal, must be an expression of his reaching out towards it; that art must give man hope and faith. And the more hopeless the world in the artist's version, the more clearly perhaps must we see the ideal that stands in opposition — otherwise life becomes impossible! Art symbolises the meaning of our existence.
I think the necessity to compare video games to paintings is not only a useless conversation to have, but also pushes the medium in a negative direction.
Trying to make video games as some kind of high profile pieces of entertainment is how we ended up with movie games and limited as fuck game play. Fucking monopoly and D&D aren't considered art forms, so why the fuck should video games?
Art doesn't exist. It's an illusion created by critics to feel good about themselves.
>>342832501
Why is One Punch Man interviewing Kojima?
>>342846054
ebin
>>342846054
He was trying to figure out if anime is art
>>342832501
The closest thing to a video game is a board game. Is monopoly art?
>>342846408
Why wouldn't Monopoly be art?
>>342832501
So it means games that aren't made to please everyone are art
Weeb games are art confirmed by the master!
>>342833105
Is this Jackson Pollock?
Man's been working for Konami for too long. He basically sees video games as a creative buisness adventure now. You don't have to create something so that everyone who sees it enjoys it, but you do if it's your job to create something that is attempting to appeal to billions.
>>342846408
Monoploly is the art of business and economy
>>342846508
If you go and play football are you an artist? Games, no mater what kind, are just sets of rules, objectives, and interfaces with useful fluff attached to keep people interested to the end. They are meant to encourage people to practice specific skills, be it athletic in nature like in a sport, strategic in something like chess, or in the case of most video games fine motor skills. A game should be judged in how much it makes you practice something and by how little you realize that you are practicing.
>>342840139
You are a man of a tiny, tiny mind
Some people still confuse "art" and "high art", which is the only single one source of this misunderstanding.
When a game is made for the common denominator by a large team of 9-5 workers who are just there to put food on the table, it's not art.
If a single man or small but like-minded group take time out of their own day to sit down and create a game they envision, not to please audiences but to please themselves, then that's art.
>>342847148
>If you go and play football are you an artist?
Sure. The demonstration of a skill may be more fleeting than most forms of art but I do not see why it should be disqualifed from this discussion.
>Games, no mater what kind, are just sets of rules, objectives, and interfaces with useful fluff attached to keep people interested to the end.
Could it be said that this goal is itself part of the art of video games?
