Fun?
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Fun?
>>341479545
jesus man, just shut up already. my god, if you can't figure out why it isn't fun, than you're not going to find it fun. fun isn't something you learn, it's someting that happens. something that grows with you. jeez man, just fuck off already
>every opinion has to be part of an argument
That guy in the deep panel looks cute
>"LOOK MOM, I DID THE EVANGELION GAG AGAIN LOL!"
>>341479767
Yes if you can't support your opinion it is worthless.
>>341479545
why even have words that convey feeling amiright?
>>341479767
Why post baseless bullshit on 4chan? Is this AFK farming? Is this 4chanClicker?
>>341479545
>STILL assmad about Evangelion
>>341479545
I found the game enjoyable because when I was playing it my body released a decent amount of dopamine, which triggered the dopamine receptors causing me to feel good.
>>341479545
What is this persons beef with Evangelion?
>>341480012
>>341480193
These people have never held a discussion or casual conversation before.
>>341480012
An opinion isn't worth much to begin with since it's an entirely subjective idea, thus it doesn't need defended unless you feel the need to have others agree with it. "I don't fucking give a shit what you think" is just as valid an explanation as some long drawn out 'argument'.
>>341480395
probably that its hot garbage worshipped by weebs who last watched it when they were 13
>>341479767
That's how it works, yes.
>>341479545
You don't need hard evidence to back up subjective opinions, dipshit.
>>341480395
Nothing, I think?
>>341480631
You are wrong.
>>341480673
Eva is pretty good and that has nothing to do with my question.
>>341480395
He was probably told it was too deep for him to understand a few too many times and went insane.
>>341480968
You need to evidence why he is wrong.
>>341480631
Can't appeal to subjectivity, because it's an appeal to nothingness. Protip: playing vidya has simple traits between all playstyles. They can be designed through.
>>341479545
yeah but "challenging" in partiicular seems pretty self-explanatory and obvious
>>341481137
He has a tiny dick
>>341479545
>deep (meaningful)
>Evangelion
>>341479545
>you must
no
>>341480395
It's literally a cuckolding meme simulator that only faggots and cuckolds watch. If you have ever watched it in your lifetime you deserve to be raped, spayed, boiled alive and served on a hot plate with a side of butter and foie gras.
Fun is a buzzword.
>>341479907THICC
>>341481360
>>341480445
>This person is underage
![Eltonel-432281-The_E4_convention_-_Page_1[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/J0Y9S4j.jpg "Eltonel-432281-The_E4_convention_-_Page_1[1].jpg")
>>341479545
I want to fuck Erin
>>341479545
ITT: People actively not wanting to improve discussion on the internet.
I actually feel bad for people who don't understand Eva, I mean it's fine if you don't like it, but so many just write it off as 2deep4u and probably didn't even watch it. It's not even hard to understand but for some reason /v/ prides themselves on being philistine.
>>341479545
Is that some Critical miss? Its a terrible comic
>>341481869
That's this entire board. That's "gaming culture" as a whole. Manchildren that want their pathetic hobby to be taken seriously despite refusing to accept any form of criticism or challenge.
>>341481772
I'm going to have sex with Erin!
>>341481206
>Pro-social
Who is this double faggot?
>>341482150
Read up on the difference between pretentious and deep, son.
>>341482345
is that so?
>>341482150
>It's not even hard to understand
That's the point. People play up the philosofical hype like NGE is 2deep4u
when it's story is not thathard to understand, and desu 80% of it it's just formulaic filler, with inly the first few and last episodes mattering.
>>341482471
I can't stand it anymore!
I'm gonna pound that tight ass!
>>341479545
No, internet discussion does not require a formal academic thesis.
Fun, for example, is ultimately pretty fucking subjective. No one is ever going to prove that a game is fun, because that makes no sense. Individuals are going to decide that they think a particular game is fun, and at the best they will be able to tell you why they personally found it fun, and if you didn't agree with them their explanations aren't going to persuade you.
Deep is also pretty objective. Evangelion, for example (since it's in the image) - it's a story about a bunch of fucked up kids with unfulfilled emotional needs who have the choice between letting Tang Jesus into their hearts and making everything better or telling Tang Jesus to fuck off and overcoming their problems on their own. Some people are going to say that that seems deep, and some people are going to say that that reminds them of that weird kid they knew in highschool who wore eyeliner and wrote bad poetry.
Even challenge is difficult to objectively measure, because some people feel that certain kinds of challenge are not as valid as others. Challenge through repetition, for example (i.e. "how far back do you go when you die") is pretty contentious. The longer it is between checkpoints, the less likely you are to be able to "luck" your way from one checkpoint to the next, but it also means that as you replay the content between those checkpoints, parts that were previously challenging will become merely annoyingly time-consuming. For example, consider Enter the Gungeon - you will be bored shitless of how easy the first level is long before you unlock the shortcut to skip it, and then if you do use a shortcut you can't earn credits on that run. It goes from challenging my skills to challenging my patience. That's not real challenge.
>>341481772
Hey, Vivian doesn't look that bad
>>341481206
>Fun is meaningless, poisonous, and a neurological trick
This guy sounds like he has an awesome social life
>>341483826
I think you forgot to explain how he's wrong.
>>341483157
white korra is a whore who's probably loose as fuck
>>341484070
Sure let me just have a discussion with a screenshot, that seems productive.
>>341483390
>Deep is also pretty objective.
I meant subjective.
>>341480395
>Creator makes an anime who's only meaning is a big fuck you to japanese culture (I.E your life ends after highschool because your a corporate slave)
>Adds a bunch of christian/jewish imagery because it looks cool
>People seem to think it has some sort of deep meaning and tell this to everyone who hasn't seen it.
It's essentially getting pissed that people think dredging up religious imagery represents something deep.
>>341479732
why is this thread still going...
>>341484070
>fun is an opinion, opinion, and an opinion
He doesn't back up his own opinions.
>>341481206
If a game can trick my brain into having fun then that game is fun, and a valid positive. The feeling of touch is a trick your brain plays ok you so that you don't kill yourself, and ut doesn't make the brain amne less "good."
>>341483390
This guy gets it
He's right. I don't give a shit what your opinion is if you are too stupid to be able to explain why you have it.
>>341479545
>Korra telling the truth
no surprise here
>>341484507
Do you think movies and books have to be "fun"?
If not then why do video games?
I'm pretty sure "challenging" is the argument.
Why should I even explain why a game is fun to someone?
If they already have an opinion on the game I won't change it, and if my friend asks me whether a game is good and he should buy it I'll just say "Yeah, it's fun."
>>341484804
i don't think that
I think games are entirely subjective and professional critics should shut the fuck up
I want to impregnate Erin.
>>341484931
He's an idiot if he doesn't shut you down when you can't explain why.
>>341484804
>Do you think entertaining media beeds to be entertaining?
Uh, yeah?
>>341484804
don't put words in my mouth you fucking queer
>>341485413
Are all your friends autistic?
>remember people used to shitpost using this argument on /v/
>now retards unironically use it
>>341481206
>you shouldn't partake in an act that exists to be fun just for fun
>you should judge this means of entertainment, created with the intent to be fun, on everything else but how fun it is
that's like saying you should rate a car on how it looks instead of how it drives
>>341479545
Why do I have to present an argument to the conclusion that I find strawberries or beets or lasagna delicious? They just are to me, just as they may be disgusting to someone else.
>>341485464
Well if someone asks you about a game it's very rude to just reply with "fun" since it doesn't really tell them anything.
An example. Game is fun because the combat system is fun. Why is the combat system fun? Because it's fast and responsive and it's fun to do the combos and learning to do them is fun. Why are those things fun then?
Yeah saying a game is fun is legit because it just can be fun.
>>341481382
Even if you watched it once to see how bad it was? Dumbass.
>>341484931
But your friend has a different taste to you, what you find fun may aggravate him instead, and if he just takes your "it's fun" as a consumer advise, buys the game and find out he hates it, it's your fault because you couldn't properly explain what you find appealing about that game.
>Evangelion is L I T E R A L L Y 2 D E E P for him
What a fucking baby hahah how can you listen to the guys opinion desu
>>341479545
This thread is shit and you should kill yourself. Sure sound like 2 facts to me...
>>341482150
>awkward social nerd masturbates on woman in hospital
>"omg is represents life and white privilege and the meaning of existence!"
How about no.
I want to fuck white korra!
>>341486051
I assume if he's asking for my opinion on the game he trusts my taste
>>341479767
by definitnion, if you put it in an argument it becomes part of an argument. And "a game is good because" leads to an argument by default because you are stating a "fact", you aren't expression your opinion.
>>341484804
Because a movie being fun doesn't necessarily make it well made. I may love Beer Fest as a movie for being completely self-aware of how shitty it is. But that doesn't make it an award wininer thats 10/10 best movie ever. It has loads of problems, its just cheesey/corny fun.
>>341484804
video games are not books/movies
a perfect video game would be able to justify a story's inclusion in the game through it's gameplay
What are some actually deep animes?
>>341486204
You hang out with dipshits, you can't assume they're smart enough to know how terrible your taste is.
>>341486710
>deep
>animes
>>341479545
LOL CATS COCAINE SO RANDOM LMAO FUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
>>341486710
evangelion
>>341486710
Cartoons have shallow depth because they are limited by having to use images.
>>341479545
I don't get the comic. I get the argument, but not the pictures.
>>341487146
Wew lad, you'd get your cunt glassed for being such a haughty poofter in the real world.
>>341486710
Ergo Proxy
>>341488072
>animu
Ergo Shite
>>341484389
>Creator makes an anime who's only meaning is a big fuck you to japanese culture
Wasn't the message "It's ok to be a little bitch because as soon as you accept you're one you will get good. Congratulations".
Like they dropped the last two episodes just to get that point across.
>>341487635
Are books limited due to having to use words you idiot?
>>341486542
Likewise most oscar winners may have 10/10 writing, makeup, sound effects, etc. but most of the time they're borefest sob stories.
>>341486710
lain fucking sucks shit, even more overrated than eva
>>341488394
That was the "we ran out of money" ending, the point of the show is that Shinji is your japanese kid growing up into the hellish nightmare that is japanese adulthood with all it's shitty honor customs warped with western capitalism.
It's basically saying "our culture is shit, don't be a bitch and do what you want".
>>341481772
Sauce me up, google and tinyeye give nothing.
>>341488394
It's literally just the story of a whiny teenage fuccboi struggling with how hard and unfair the world is. School sucks, your dad's a dick and you have no fucking future, but you should probably at least try to do something because nobody likes whiny fuccbois.
The resolution of the plot is the main character finally deciding to maybe do something, and everybody else literally gives him a sarcastic golf clap for doing so.
>>341483390
Why not? Science studies what's fun with plenty of results.
>You can't say that a video game is fun, you have to write 10 page papers discussing the clockworks and philosophical genius of this art form!
>I don't like to have fun. Fun is a parasite.
>arguing about subjective opinions
>>341488915
>>341489076
I think you just read too much into it. Something I could see is that writing was all over the place and changed as they went on.
Like during the first two thirds of the original series Shinji actually develops very well and becomes very manly up to the point when he quit on his own volition because he was almost made to kill one of his friends on purpose. Up until then it was a very standard shonen mecha anime
Then for some reason everything becomes a sob story, they start throwing a lot of faux symbolism and they rushed the ending in to "Congratulations".
>>341489028
The name is right there, it's Eltonel.
he's right
"fun" is about a worthless word as "art" is on its own
>>341489028
http://www.hentai-foundry.com/pictures/user/Eltonel/432281/The-E4-convention---Page-1
read filenames next time
>>341489572
It's not THAT deep though, and not every little thing supports the meaning. It's simply the basis of the show. Don't be a cuck to jap society, that's it.
Outside of that it's just flesh giant wars with Judea-christian aesthetic.
>>341486204
If you can't base your taste on logic, what is there to even say if he challenges it's enjoyability after playing?
>>341489902
The only character who usess true literary symbolism in Eva is fucking Kaji with his watermelons and that's why he's my favorite character. Chances are that it was unintentional too.
Some people find simulators fun
I do not
Some people find arcade games not fun
I do
Fun is subjective
Just like sexual attraction/fetishes
It's not something that really works for arguments
>>341489572
>just the story of a whiny teenage fuccboi struggling with how hard and unfair the world is
>I think you just read too much into it.
I think you're a spastic. I didn't say a goddamn thing about symbolism.
>>341479545
Should've hadRad Pandathere somewhere
>>341490070
You can agree or disagree with why they didn't like the game, and regardless of that you will have still enjoyed the game beforehand.
>>341484070
>>341481206
He doesn't actually come up with decent alternatives to "fun" as an idea.
Healing? Edifying? Is the reader really going to realize that games can benefit its players? "Decide for yourself."
>>341485807
Taste isn't interactive. It doesn't have to meet any demographical standards. Taste can't have controls or map design.
>>341486051
>buys the game and find out he hates it, it's your fault because you couldn't properly explain what you find appealing about that game.
If someone can not figure out whether he will enjoy a game or not by watching a video of its gameplay, he is for all intents and purposes brain dead to me.
This is why I will never understand people who depend on reviews. The only possible excuse I could find for them is if maybe the game pulls a 180 in the middle or is horribly bugged and you can't find that out by watching gameplay. Anything else and you're a retard who needs to be told what he enjoys. If you played the first Disgaea and enjoyed it, and then played the second and enjoyed it, and then played the third, and the 4th gets announced and looks the same except slightly better, and you still can't decide whether you will like it or not, then yeah you're a lost cause.
>>341488787
what makes you think that
>>341490361
yes
>>341490474
Thing is that you said
>the world
And Shinji doesn't really deals with any real world problems that reflect japanese society. If that were the case Shinji would at least be in highschool, not middle school. Hell the world is anything but unfair around him, he lives a privileged life in comparison to others. Others depend and rely on Shinji, not the other way around.
The deals more with family issues, actually. It is stated within the series that Shinji acts seeking mostly his father's approval and a big chunk of the series is about the mother-son relationship between Misato and him.
>>341479545
All 3 of those things being possibly some of the most subjective aspects of anything let alone video games.
It's utterly impossible to provide evidence that can conclusively prove an activity will be fun for everyone, or even anyone. Beyond saying "people have enjoyed this kind of thing in the past".
>>341491348
>And Shinji doesn't really deals with any real world problems that reflect japanese society.
What the fuck are you talking about? Seriously, you're a fucking spastic.
>>341485892
Except why is doing combos and learning to do them fun? Because mastery is a feeling of competence. So, deeper combo systems will have increased skill to experience.
>>341491117
>If someone can not figure out whether he will enjoy a game or not by watching a video of its gameplay, he is for all intents and purposes brain dead to me.
Undertale 'looks' like pure garbage but I found the gameplay fun and assumed it was shit looking at it without actually playing it
"fun" is subjective, but I think the other two are pretty easy to discuss.
> challenging
Game has a lot of secrets to discover, making exploring and finding new equipment crucial to progress and satisfying to me. Bosses are difficult, meaning you have to use your brain and your reflexes to find weaknesses, try new strategies or weapons, whatever it takes to progress, and that's satisfying to me.
>>341490961
>doesn't have to meet demographical standards
bullshit, if the pizza doesn't taste good for 99% of your customer base, you're fucked in a lot of ways.
they're both subjective things, I think that's all he wanted to point out
>>341489509
>implying the claim that "opinions" are subjective is valid in a scientific realm of
>>341491763
All games have the same base experience. Controls and input gameplay, depth and immersiveness, and the allowance of mental silence.
>>341492079
>liked Undertale gameplay
Sounds brain dead alright.
>>341492487
Yeh of course, and all food is edible but I know people who cannot touch ketchup.
To me games can be that diverse in terms of peoples taste. I personally can't be bothered with RTS, but some people playing nothing but that genre
>>341479545
But the thing is fun was had, that is a tangible quality the player experienced. Just because they can't put into precise words what caused it doesn't suddenly make it go away.
>>341492638
ebin
>>341492471
Pizza's niches are thickness and quality. It's also food, so it provides a service, unlike some games.
>>341492487
>in a scientific realm of
..cause and effect. *
>>341481772
>YFW all the qt gamer girls you used to know became SJW feminists
>>341481382
>It's literally a cuckolding meme simulator
??????
>>341489737
Man, it's recent? People still unironically like Vivian?
Fun, Challenging, and deep are all subjective terms. Which can easily be defeated by someone saying well I felt the opposite.
>>341493709
I'm just gonna wait til it has more pages then I'll read it on panda
>>341486064
To be completely fair, Anno admitted in interviews that a lot of it is faux symbolism he wanted to be in just to make it look 'cool'.
>>341493118
pizza is easily luxury food
>differences are niche
depends if you consider toppings or not
removing toppings from the equation, something like a dominoes pizza is vastly different from an italian pizza or home cooked pizza, despite objectively being basically the same thing
if you went to a restaurant and you saw them just putting a dominoes pizza on a plate you'd be mortified etc
>>341479545
>an opinion must be presented as a fucking indexed scientific article
>implying said articles don't have an abstract for quick citation
modern geek culture is cancer
>>341493709
>unironically like Vivian
why wouldn't you? she's a cute character
>BUT MUH GOOBERGOBBERS
doesn't change that she's just a qt who plays video games
>>341480631
>>341480737
>>341483390
>>341485312
>>341489509
>>341490361
>>341491763
>>341492119
>>341492471
>>341493820
>muh subjectivity
That's not logical. Science is all about cause and effect, and if a studio is making a game, they should have an understanding of what's ultimately entertaining.
>>341493709
Vivian is ultra cute, how could you dislike her?
this is perfectly valid. saying that a game is "fun" is no different than just saying "I liked it." if you're reviewing a game or trying to convince someone that it's good you should explain why it was fun.
>characters were well written
>combat was responsive
>soundtrack fit the levels well
these points explain why you thought the game was fun. just saying "it was fun" doesn't tell you shit.
>>341494717
Man she looks like someone's got a gun to her head forcing her to do that.
>>341494658
autism/10
>>341481382
>foie gras
Man what the fuck, this is a worksafe board ffs.
>>341494832
>a movie studio shouldn't realize what makes a decent movie
>etc.
>>341494658
>they should have an understanding of what's ultimately entertaining.
They should, they don't. Do you think they do a research of what the public wants? It's easier to invest on marketing.
>>341491771
it's ok Anon, you just watched Eva a long time ago. It's natural you don't remember things well.
>>341494973
>suites should interfere with what artists do
yeah because that's a good idea
>>341495160
>suits produce movies
Non sequitur.
>>341494658
The developers know what makes their game entertaining, it's part of the design process.
But players might not agree that it's the most fun thing in the world to climb all these watchtowers for the same cutscene that reveals the map and then do nearly identical missions with QTE combat. Because entertainment is subjective.
>>341494658
This is a weird fallacy of illicit transference.
In order to be successful, a business needs to have an understanding of what a certain audience will find "fun." That does not imply there is a universal, objective definition of fun. It implies that there are a bunch of people who share an individual, subjective definition of fun - and that you can make money by giving them what they want.
You're not Spock, here. You're just an idiot playing pretend-smart. Painfully awkwardly, at that.
>>341480012
>"Hey man have you played Dark Souls 3?"
>"Yeah it's pretty good I'm enjoying it"
>"WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ENJOYING IT YOUR OPINION IS BASELESS I NEED 16 BULLETPOINT REASONS EACH CITED WITH SOURCE AND CONCLUSION"
>>341495287
Yes, do you not know how Hollywood works?
>>341494658
Pretty much this, except that the point of Artforms is to be able to properly manifest your conceptual standard, not watering it down for an audience. The most proper example of this is painting an Apple that's right in front of you. If that is your main objective, yet you paint a nice orange instead, then i can easily failed to paint the apple properly (though i would commend you on doing a nice Orange).
Entertainment on the other hand has a lot to do with understanding the psyche and the preferences of a vast and ever-changing audience. Of course, this variety means you will never be able to cater to LITERALLY everyone, but your job is to whore out to the largest group possible to ensure your product can be profitable.
Art is actually easier to quantify on its own as it has a set standard inspirational basis for its expression and fulfillment.
Entertainment is quantified by how many people "liked" it and bought into it.
>>341486710
Stop.
Anime is a fucking bad meme, 90% of anime is pure pandering to the viewers.
On the other hand, sometimes anime can mean something, but not exactly intentionally.
Let me explain, remember when Beelzemon saves the little girl in Digimon 3? That was a really emotional moment, but not deep in the least, the feelings are there without any need to search for a meaning.
Most weeb cartoons try so hard to make a anime different. For instance, death note.
Death note is the most pretentious shit that has come from anime.
If you really want something deep read a book or watch a good film, even fucking play a videogame like Stanley Parable, but don't watch chink cartoons please.
>>341492471
>bullshit, if the pizza doesn't taste good for 99% of your customer base
Heavy emphasis on "customer base". Different products have different customer bases. Ever heard the phrase 'it's an acquired taste' ?
There's lots of nasty foods out there that's only appealing to a remote 10% of the population.
And that 10% is honestly enough. Only an idiot would think that something has to appeal to nearly EVERYONE to be remotely profitable. You work in the fast food industry or something?
>>341496351
saved to pasta folder, this is really good stuff
>>341495501
Such a good post, fuck, 10/10 anon, really good.
>>341479545
the game is good because it's challenging/fun/deep is not a conclusion, it's an argument
>>341495327
>The developers know what makes their game entertaining, it's part of the design process.
So, why are there one-button action games like Skyrim? Rhetorically.
>>341495501
>In order to be successful, a business needs to have an understanding of what a certain audience will find "fun." That does not imply there is a universal, objective definition of fun.
Not what that post is saying.
>It implies that there are a bunch of people who share an individual, subjective definition of fun
Not an argument.
There are games that aren't really fun. There are things that would, overall, make them fun.
>>341496351
>don't liking anime
>in 4chan
what
>>341497035
I don't like anime but I like the part that developed within 4chan.
I see weebs here like that cousin you don't really like because he is weird and seems to be autistic but still he is part of your family and you love them eitherways.
>>341480631
that's an opinion, so it's worthless
>>341497531
>that's an opinion
Not an argument.
>>341497435
>I came because of facebook hype you MUST respect me now ok
go get raped you shit eating poser faggot.
>>341496351
Death Note and The Stanley Parable are the exact same shit, low quality media for idiots to gobble up.
>>341497659
>Not an argument.
that's your opinion, so it's worthless
>>341497924
What are you even saying, please stop trying to fit in no one here wants to be your friend son.
>>341497938
The stanley parable is hilarious because it's comedy, death note is hilarious because of how patetic it is.
>>341495684
More like
>Hey man you played Dark Souls 3?
>Yeah its pretty fun.
>What kind of stuff do you like about it so far?
>Uh uhhhhhhhh
This is the problem. Nobody is saying your fun is fake. Its just that when people want to know about a product they expect you to provide details about it that demonstrate the positive or negative outcome that you reached.
>>341499286
>what is fun about dark souls 3
gee I don't know, maybe the difficult fights? the thing that people play this whole series for?
>>341499850
Well there you go, its a start. But like the OP says you cant just say a game is 'difficult' because thats vague and gives you no idea what it derives the difficulty from. If someone said they liked difficult games it doesn't necessarily imply that they will enjoy Dark Souls or even think it is difficult. Thats why you describe what is difficult about it and how you think it contributes to the game's success. This is REAL game discussion that rarely occurs here anymore.
>>341494717
Off-copy of Tomoko, who in turn, in an off-copy of Imako.
She's the Warluigi of Nerd Grills.
>>341480012
Well, seeing as how the only reason to "support" your opinion on a videogame is to have an internet dick-measuring contest in front of an audience, then it isn't important to begin with.
You need to back up your opinion in law, science, and real world decision making. What videogames you prefer is a child's argument.
>>341500334
the fights are difficult because it's hard to win
>>341479545
You're a real pussy if you wouldn't find those things fun and challenging.
>>341480395
2deep4u is just a long-running joke about Evangelion. So it's associated with false depth.
It does have depth, but it isn't philosophical or plot depth. Not even close. It has a lot of emotional depth that's very apparent if you've ever been depressed, had bottom-of-barrel self esteem, or felt unable to appropriately communicate your emotions to others like a well developed adult (common traits among the kind of people who love Evangelion).
There's no such thing as a game being objectively entertaining.
Arguments to the contrary just prove you're autistic.
>>341500335
Umm, actually she and reddit-chan are off copies from Wake-up Girl Zoo.
>>341495501
> Different people find different things fun
> This means the definition of fun is subjective
You're literally braindead.
Man, threads like these remind me why I hated english class
>>341495684
>Man this game doesn't seem like it has a lot of content. I don't see what you guys are seeing in this
>This video game is fun and made for people who like playing games fuck off (insert opposing game/console) to your blunder :)
>>341500335
>implying Waluigi isn't the greatest thing to come out of Nintendo in a long, long time.
>>341488787
AND YOU DONT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND
