if elder scrolls is a dream, why aren't people waking up when they die?
It's not their own dream.
>>340561013
they are. they wake up and return to the world offallout
>>340561013
When lorefags get going just nod your head.
Don't wait for them to get tired of talking about whatever current headcanon they are fond of...they won't.
Just turn around and walk away.It may be rude but it is the best way.
Sorry but that npc is essential
>>340561013
this is a god dream
>>340561885
>headcanon
CHIM isn't headcanon you stupid Skyrimbabby.
>>340563890
MUH JUNGLE
>>340563890
it isn't? (honest question)
Better yet why is there this whole other fucking continent no one ever talks about.
>>340561013
It's not their dream
>>340564018
Nice deflection. I like Oblivion as much as Morrowind so not sure what you're trying to prove here.
>>340564312
CHIM is prevalent in Morrowind, it is mentioned a couple times in books. Slightly obscure, but definitely not headcanon.
>>340564312
>CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witnessthe homeof theRed KingOnce Jungled. - commentaries on mysterious xarxes
When there are ten books directly referring to it or Godhead/dream and every metaphysical book ever refers to it or things tied to truth of aurbis in a roundabout way, I wouldn't call it headcanon.
>>340564354
You mean Akavir?
I wish they should incude it in their next games, that whole continent is more interesting than Tamriel.
>>340564559
I see. (never played Morrowind but planning on doing so this year) Are there any mentions in Oblivion or Skyrim, or have the devs acknowledged its existence?
(I know Todd isn't the best at handling lore continuity but still)
>>340561013
Anu and Padomay duke it out, Nir dies, Anu becomes Godhead and sleeps in the sun, goes into sensory deprevation and his mind turns into a new existence.
Anui-El and Sithis are memories of Anu and Padomay respectively and they represent binary code of existence so to say. Nir exists as a memory of grey maybe.
Unified Et'Ada of time and space which is son of both Anui-El and Sithis exists and his existence gives possibility for other Et'Ada to form.
Other Et'Ada form and give possibilities for concepts and spheres to exist.
Sithis infects the original Et'Ada of time and space and said being goes crazy, he gets memories of Nir, realizes The Wheel and The Tower and wants to find a way to true freedom.
Slowly being divides into two minds of Dragon God of Time and Trickster God.
Plan for creation of Mundus happens.
Mundus gets created, deities are tricked or willingly sacrifice their energies, those who do become Aedra, those who fuck off and make imitations of Mundus in Oblivion but said realms are egotistical and solitary are Daedra.
Dragon God kills and rips out heart of Trickster God which was part of the plan, time becomes linear and Mundus is a plane of mortality now.
Ehlnofey are Ada (As opposed to Et'Ada which are original spirits), they are strange fucks that might or might not be descendants of Et'Ada. Ehlnofey group of Ehlnofey are called Wondering Ehlnofey.
Ehlnofey bind themselves to Mudnus and turn themselves into earthbones, creating rules of existence so to say. It is unclear if Mortal races are descendants of Aedra and Ehlnofey together, just Ehlnofey etc.
What matters is that as world slowly stabilizes and as time becomes linear mortality is slowly becoming a thing.
Ada slowly stabilize through different ways, space and time become stable and world becomes the thing we know today. Men races are somehow tied to Wondering Ehlnofey who in turn are tied to the core principles of Lorkhan.
cont.
TES lore is overrated. All this cosmology and CHIM meta-narrative bullshit is so loosely-related to the actual games, it doesn't impact the story of the games whatsoever. It's nothing more than an afterthought by the writers in a pathetic attempt to make their fantasy universe seem less derivative.
>>340561013
>>340565484
So base reality of Mundus is fucking multiple layers away from the dreamer.
Living beings are subgradients of subgradients of subgradients of original concepts born out of memories of Anu which are Et'Ada.
When people die they simple get broken down into trifold souls and go to some afterlife or get bound to something or whatever.
>>340564018
>>340564312
>Anu returned, fought Padomay, and cast him outside Time. Nir gave birth to Creation, but died from her injuries soon after. Anu, grieving, hid himself in the sun and slept.
>CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witnessthe homeof theRed KingOnce Jungled.
>The eyes, once bleached by falling stars of utmost revelation, will forever see the faint insight drawn by the overwhelming question, as only the True Enquiry shapes the edge of thought. The rest is vulgar fiction, attempts to impose order on the consensus mantlings of an uncaring Godhead.
>Eat or bleed dry the gone-forlorn and gain that small will that led them to walk the path of Godhead.
>Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter.' 'I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.
>'I told you,' Vivec said, 'I am meant to be the teacher of the king of the earth. AE ALTADOON GHARTOK PADHOME.' With these magic words, the King of Rape added another: 'CHIM,' which is the secret syllable of royalty.
>The waking world is the amnesia of dream. All motifs can be mortally wounded.
>he Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals. The Bones of the Wheel need their flesh, and that is mankind's heirloom.
You tell me.
>>340561013
How is Falkreath considered a major town? It look like you literally copy and pasted the same building a bunch of times.
>>340566097
How do people state shit like this without any knowledge of lore what so ever?
Literally every single main plot is tied to the meta narrative of Lorkhanic plan to achieve true freedom ever since MK and Kuhlmann got on board during Redguard. I don't actually think that you faggots understand how thought out is the meta narrative.
Here, this is from Morrowind
When the dragon dies, the Empire dies.
Where is the lost dragon's blood, the Empire's sire?
And from the womb of the void, who shall stem the blood tide?
So long as the Blood of the Dragon Prince runs strong in her rulers, the glory of the Empire shall extend in unbroken years.
His heart's blood bleeds in darkness
For once the portals are opened, who shall shut them upon the rising tide?
For Lord Dagon forever reborn in blood and fire from the waters of Oblivion.
Find him... and close shut the marble jaws of Oblivion.
Not to mention that there are references to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim in Redguard and even it's trailer, hell there are literally books on the shelf with numbered TES games.
Aldmeri Dominion/Thalmor shit going on right now has so much to do with metaphysics especially since they know Dawn Magic, have mirror logicians and even some tonal architecture.
>>340566739
They needed something significant for that corner of the map but didn't feel like making a """big""" city comparative to the others.
>>340566318
>those quotes
Meanwhile Skyrim has le ebin dragonborn and arrow in the knee xD
>>340561013
Old map
Morrowind up to Vivec belongs to Argonians.
And Vivec itself was destroyed
>>340567917
Two of them are from Skyrim. Also Parthrunax literally tells you about Kalpic cycle in one of his dialogues.
>>340566741
At the very least, the game's writing should encourage me to the point of seeking out this meta-narrative and diving into the lore myself. In other RPGs, I clean out the codexes and other info-drops the game throws at me because I'm interested in the world. By the game's end, I know all about the universe it takes place in. But that isn't the case with TES. The games rarely give me an inclination to seek out such "hidden lore" mostly due to its complete irrelevance to the plot at hand, not to mention said plots are often bland and uninspired.
Skyrim was one trope after another (ancient evil awakens, you are the chosen one, prophecies, etc.) and Oblivion wasn't any better. That's the story Bethesda chose to present to me. I shouldn't have to go completely out of my way to read into all this convoluted and cryptic information to understand the "real" story.
And at the end of the day, meta-narratives are just another storytelling gimmick.
>>340563745
This is eeevrythaaang
>>340564018
MUH TODD
>>340568657
My bad. I was too busy roleplaying as an illiterate orc in Skyrim.
>>340565484
its interesting how the lore is this interesting but oblivion and skyrim are the most generic games ever
>>340569372
The lore is remnants of Kirkbride's influence. Actual Bethesda writers are both incompetant and play it extremely safe.
>>340568885TLOP was worth the wait
Who the fuck is TES VI : Hammerfell here?
>>340561013
I look at that map, and I see a purple skinned man in brown pants waving his hands in the air as he's fucking an anteater that is carrying a pot full of spinach on it's back.
>>340561013
it's like the matrix you know
>>340570040
you're a madman but i see it
>>340568796
I am not saying that they present their lore in an accessible way nor am I saying that main plot of Oblivion or Skyrim are actually any good, but the Meta narrative is deep and part of the stories in spite of current writers being shit.
They got Kuhlmann back, though as a lead game designer, still we will see how TES VI turns out.
In defense of TES lore being so hard to access, it is lore accurate to a degree, hell often times certain books can be read only in one game because it would make no sense for it to be in another region. Lorefags piece information together because they have access to wikias that have all the books and everything not to mention out of game hints starting from Morrowind. Despite this sounding like a shitty excuse no one that lives in Aurbis knows all of the truth properly, not even Lorkhan who has actually seen The Wheel and The Tower, you should not be able to learn all of that ingame.
As for your meta-narrative "gimmick" statement, I strongly disagree. I in fact find that meta-narrative makes any setting more interesting and gives it a focus, though I am talking from table top RPG perspective since games rarely have meta-narrative.
BUT, again all of that being said, the moment when I got interested in TES lore was when I heard Mankar talk about planes and such during Oblivion's last quests. Then I replayed Morrowind reading as many books as I could which eventually led me to Bethesda lore forums where I got into metaphysics.
Clearly since there are many lorefags out there games do something right to interest people in it's lore.
>>340569618
Hard to tell, Skyrim's main plot was complete shite but new books appeared that talked about Magna-Ge and Godhead. Hell one of the reasons why Amaranth is a popular thing now in lore community is Skyrim and it's references to it.
Most likely Kuhlmann who was as good of a crazy writer as Kirkbride back in the day, then he quit and then he got hired again as a lead game designer, hence why there are less of his writings now.
>>340569834
Ayyy, it will be Hammerfell, mark my words.
>>340570126
Not really, it's not really a dream, more like a dreamlike existence. It's quite literally Hinduism mixed with Gnosticism and some new age Occultism. Godhead is concept similar to Brahman etc.
>>340568796
They do that to get the normies cash though, people wouldn't be interested in a story about fighting yourself while mer try to unravel reality because they wuz gods 'n shit, they want ebin dragon fights and muh vikings.
>>340561013
>If elder scrolls is a dream
??
>>340569372
It's really strange.
Oblivions plot was hinted at ever since Redguard, but they fired MK at that time which made the plot shit...and guess what, the only good part of Oblivion main quest was that based on his writings about Mankar Camoran.
As opposed to KOTN and Shivering Isles which embraced lore in it's fullest and turned out much more interesting if you ask me.
Skyrim dropped the ball hard fucking up one of the most interesting metaphysical creatures, but at the same time it had references to Kirkbridian shit in environments, sculptures and books everywhere, thanks to Kuhlmann...plus Dragonborn DLC had potential if they would play up Miraak trying to create his own walking way more and mentions his plan properly instead of just hints to him wanting to take control of Earthbones on Solstheim etc.
TES development is a mess basically, they need to get the team together or find a similar writer.
Do the people you dream about wake up when they die? No, they're constructs of the dream.
Similar concept for people in the ES universe.
>>340570961
At the beginning of time a God sacrificed his existence to create a new universe within his "dreams".
>>340570332
I'd definitely like to see more of TES's deeper narrative show up in-game. Everyone shits on it, but I do think Skyrim really had a much less washed-out presentation than Oblivion that made the different aspects of TES lore seem more unique and interesting. It's a step in the right direction, at least, despite the main Alduin plot being boring af.
>>340570865
Eh, I think most people overestimate how idiotic Bethesda's mass-audience is. As long as there is great dialogue, engaging characters, visuals, pacing, and so forth, almost any story will seem exciting and draw all players in. It's just that, at the end of the day, ebin dragon fights and vikings don't leave much of an impression.
Why doesn't Kirkbride work at Bethesda anymore? Clearly they're on good terms since he gets brought in to write ingame books once in a while and he clearly is very passionate about the lore.
Is he rich enough to live comfortably without a job and just does Elder Scrolls stuff for fun?
>>340571361
It's a bit worse than that.
Imagine when you are dreaming your mind would divide and instead of you seeing just from perspective of your avatar you see from everyones perspective, your mind divides between all constructs in the dream. Now imagine there are so many things your mind divides between that your can't even think straight anymore, you are just a big pool of nothing and parts of you take on personalities in your dream. That's Godhead and Aurbis.
Now imagine one such dream construct realizes that something is fishy and that everything seems to be extension of the same mind, so he starts to warp reality as if he is lucid dreaming. That's CHIM.
>>340571718
>Why doesn't Kirkbride work at Bethesda anymore?
He was fired for alcohol and drug abuse, he used to be a heavy junkie.
>Clearly they're on good terms since he gets brought in to write ingame books once in a while and he clearly is very passionate about the lore.
They are but now he works for Telltale games as one of the lead writers, he is currently working on Batman game.
>Is he rich enough to live comfortably without a job and just does Elder Scrolls stuff for fun?
Telltale games.
>>340570516
It was probably written by Kirkbride himself. Despite many people thinking he's totally unrelated to TES now, he confirmed that he still comes back and writes a little bit for every game.
He at least wrote the Commentaries by Mankar Cameron in Oblivion and the Talos preacher's text for sure.
>>340571995
>It was probably written by Kirkbride himself.
It wasn't, in fact I know that Waking Dreams and black books were written by Kuhlmann.
>He at least wrote the Commentaries by Mankar Cameron in Oblivion and the Talos preacher's text for sure.
He wrote all of Pelinal related lore and books too and some stuff in Shivering Isles.
Deep lore in Skyrim is homaged to him by Kuhlmann though, simple example is painted cows.
>>340571995
>>340572461
And again he did not write "From the Many Headed Talos" for Skyrim (Heimskrs preaching), it was Out Of Game text, Kuhlmann inserted it.
What is this "true freedom" that is apparently desired by some Aedra?
Despite all the religion and beliefs we play and hear about on Tamriel. Tamriel is like the Australia of that world. There are other races and shit. Hell the Akiviri are apparently laughing at Tamriels little shit storms.
The question is why is it that people who achieve CHIM don't always zero sum? If people in my dream realized they were dreamt and started messing with my dream I wouldn't like it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkaX6tyq9pI
>>340572604
Lorkhan was poisoned by memories of Nir which in turn caused him to realized The Tower and The Wheel...which basically means that I am We, everything is part of me, I am part of everything, existence is one whole mind in a coma.
Due to influences of Sithis Lorkhan saw this as a horrible prison and a limitation and decided to create a plane on which one could achieve freedom.
This is really speculative and unclear lore at this point but essentially freedom relates to what comes when someone gets walking ways like CHIM or PSJJJ Endeavor or what one can do with tools like Numidium...escape the dream. In Out Of Game scene thanks to C0DA AMARANTH hypothesis is popular now, idea that through CHIM one can sort of force himself into sensory deprevation and "bubble" out of the dream, sort of inception "going even deeper, dream inside of the dream" thing, but the dream created by you bubbling out the current dream would be your own, you would be it's Godhead.
Ultimately it doesn't really matter what the "true freedom" is, people missunderstand what TES is essentially about on Meta-Plot level.
It's about betrayal and tragedy (Padomay, Anu, Nir), going into self loathing depressing (In case of Anu depression so bad he cuts himself from all sensory input and his mind breaks itself apart), struggling and being confused with your own state/wanting to get out of it (Lorkhan and creation of Mundus)...and overcoming the tragedy and becoming a New Man (which is what happens in C0DA).
>>340573425
Man I love drugs.
>>340572969
Because it's not actually a dream. What a lot of people miss out on is that ANU is the dream, mind body and soul. It's not some Matrix or Inception sort of "IT WAS ALL A DREAM XD", more of eastern religion "unified consciousness" thing going on.
Godhead is Brahman like in Hindu.
Et'Ada and Ada are living concepts and spheres born out of Godhead, again like in a lot of eastern religions.
Lorkhan is a mix of modern understanding of Lucifer and a twist on Demiurge, he creates a fake reality to bring freedom to others but traps everyone in process of doing so.
CHIM is a lot closer to some mystical state of mind that turns you in Budha like being.
Zero summing is in fact not coming from Godhead, it's a willing action that happens because those who understand are not prepared, realization is too much for them to handle so they willingly become nothing since they can't retain their identity knowing that it essentially doesn't exist.
Etc.
>>340573748
So did Kirkbride.
He was a theology major with opiate addiction that wanted to make spelljamer/glorantha/occult stuff and mythology/sci-fi setting together with his bro Kuhlmann, but they got to work on TES so they inserted that stuff into it instead.
