Which role is more important?
DPS
Mob
>>339909954
Mob, without it all the others would be out of a job.
Holy trinity games are garbage and you shouldn't even waste brainpower thinking about this question
Healer.
A tank and healer can take out the mob.
A DPS and healer can take out the mob as long as the DPS doesn't get 1 hit
A tank and DPS can't live long enough to kill the mob.
>>339910093
This.
Tank is the obvious answer.
>>339910093
Until compelling games exist that can allow for creative ways to dispatch monsters WITHOUT HP bars, the trinity will persist.
>>339910093
Remember what happened last time someone tried to kill the Holy Trinity?
Depends. If the tank has any healing capabilities then probably the tank since they need to be able to do decent damage to keep aggro consistently, thus they can compete with DPS. If no one has healing capabilities then the healer is the most important since anyone can tank/do damage as long as they're healed enough. But if a fight is entirely dependent on how fast you kill an enemy, perhaps due to a timer or immense damage output from the enemy, then DPS becomes incredibly important.
In most cases it tends to be Healer > Tank > DPS. DPS is replaceable by a tank's, hell sometimes a healer's, damage out put and they often times in groups of five have two others to replace one. A tank is critical to groups staying alive but some DPS can be hardy enough that, with a decent healer, can be fine if they go down. A healer in most cases is the most important as many classes don't have the ability to heal themselves or keep others alive. They also serve as support with buffing and sometimes even debuffing which is helpful.
So I say healer, but it really depends.
>>339909954
Healers are just afk-scripted jobs, being a dps is stupid since all you do is the same as the other DPS but with different animations and Tanking in video games is a pretty fucking bad mechanic to begin with, boring as fuck, so all 3 types suck
Just run NIN/DNC ya dinguses, capped parry and evasion too
>>339909954
It completely depends on the type of mob and the situation. Tank is the best overall answer though, although Healer is almost just as important.
>>339910308
it couldve worked but they did a shit job of everything
I'm every MMO ive played I make hybrid characters.
Tank with all dmg accessories/hit rate/dmg. Massive dps and pretty much unkillable.
Dex based assasin characters with tank stats and accessories. Stands toe to toe with warrior classes but hardly gets hit and has stunlock.
Always statted characters with OP gear and unconventional stats so I can solo nearly anything. Ive never enjoyed healers though or casting characters, so Tank with mixed DPS stat/gear was usually my favorite.
>>339909954
Tank/Healer>>>DPS
You can argue tank vs. healer, personally I lean towards tank, but it depends on the game and the fight.
>>339910236
Then what about all the older MMOs that had support roles and mixed roles without having to divide everything into an even 3?
>>339909954
tank
a good tank can damn near solo most mobs and even some bosses depending on spells, skills, and items they have
DPS >>>> Healers >>>>>>>> Tanks
Boss, because one boss can easily kill all three of them by the dozen.
>>339909954
HEALER is most important for the following reasons
-If a TANK dies then DPS sacrifices a few hits until HEALER revives TANK, battle continues
-If a DPS dies then TANK wasn't doing their job or DPS got cocky and got hit by an AoE or some bullshit, HEALER rivives DPS, battle continues
-If HEALER dies then the HEALER was just plain shit or their party is a complete mess, neither TANK or DPS can revive HEALER, battle ends
Without the HEALER the party falls apart, also it's possible for a party to continue without a TANK if DPS spread damage taken between themselves while HEALER focuses on AoE heals
In other words;
HEALER important
DPS do your fucking job
TANK not really needed
>>339909954
Tank/Healer > DPS
Which is more important between Tank and Healer depends on the fight
>in a dungeon
>tank is slow as fuck and can't hold threat
>start pulling myself for the sake of a timely clear
>rest of the group follows suit
>tank starts standing back in hopes that we die without him and his special snowflake status will be reaffirmed
>half the dungeon goes by and he hasn't done anything but keep up
>finally says "c-can you guys let me do my job? p-please?"
is there a more pathetic group of entitled cucks than tanks in MMOs?
>>339910817
Support classes and hybrid classes simply mix and match but are inevitably less effective at fulfilling the 3 basic roles.
Take damage
Deal damage
Heal damage
Since end-game content needs to be challenging to be worthwhile, the players invariably have to maximize their effectiveness and this means being herded into roles that perform at least one of these functions reasonably well with a few individual skills that offset any downsides the class has.
In the end all of the content can be cleared simply by focusing on those three elements, so players are forced into them
This is not the fault of the players or even the developers at that point. The fault lies in the fundamental gameplay mechanics. As long as there are hit point pools that determine winning and losing nothing will change. And since hit point pools are so versatile at allowing other creative elements to be combined with them, it's extremely difficult and time consuming to make fights both clear to understand and interesting to fight.
>>339909954
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXnXC_75SHI
>>339910093
Even if it wasn't there by design, as long as character-building exists, it would be there through emergence. If there are combat factors that increase your durability/damage/support abilities in any way, it's pretty much inevitably optimal if everyone specializes. After all, statistics and other combat factors tend to scale with each other (if you increase your damage, the value of critical strike is increased, which increases the speed of attack speed even further, which increases the value of percentage-based damage modifiers even further, which makes an additional melee attack ability even stronger) or even themselves (suppose armour decreases damage by a flat amount and an enemy hits for 1000: 500 armour doubles your expected time to live, but after that point you only need 250 armour).
>it's a tanks and healers think they matter and their job is difficult episode
>>339911027
>what are resurrection items
>>339909954
With a good enough healer, you don't NEED a tank, just have someone do enough DPS to hold aggro and gg.
Alternately, just heal yourself really well and the healer could essentially be a tank.
>>339911125
>be tank
>healer moving slow as fuck
>start gathering mobs
>healer whines and says slow down
>keep gathering
>healer purposefully stops in the hope we will die
>stop, invoke defense
>DPS unload
>tank unload
>mobs dead
>healer buttmad leaves party
>we finish the dungeon without a healer
Get better gear/skillz
>>339909954
All 3 can be subbed if the other 2 two are good, It completely depends on the encounter
>>339911276
With a good enough tank you don't need a healer.
>>339911570
In a shitty enough game that might be true.
>>339911632
We've already covered that >>339910093
>>339911632
All MMOs are shit
>>339911269
Difficulty =/= Importance
Whether or not you have to do constant management to properly do your job isn't the question here. It's whether your job is important. And when most groups of five people have two other DPS to pick up your slack and a tank who has to do decent damage to keep aggro the role of DPS is slightly diminished.
>>339911275
>resurrection items
>in a balanced MMO
kek
>>339911570
Fair point.
>>339911276
In a shitty enough game that might be true.
>>339911692
Easily tank, then healer, then DPS
>>339911746
You can't just copy me!
How about you idiots play an MMO that doesn't have this bullshit like...Runescape
>>339911269
>this is what DPSfags actually believe
No wonder you get no respect
>>339909954
The importance between Tank and Healer depends on the encounter.
>>339911027
>most of the players are DPS
>a few may be healers, depends on fights
>1 or maybe 2-3 may be tanks depending on fights.
Tanks are the, on average, least common person in the raid and are therefore the most important linch pin of the operation. DPS needs replaced? It can happen fast. Healer? Always can find a sissy nearby. Tank? GG job application will be open for the next 30 days, send resumes.
Healer > Tank > DPS is the order of most important. Flip it for most fun to play though.
They should all be equally important I think. The tank shouldn't do as much damage as the dps, the healer shouldn't be capable of keeping everyone alive indefinitely, and the boss shouldn't be possible without all the dps alive.
I think that if everyone performs their role well then the boss should die when the healer is almost out of mana. Not sure if many MMOs are like this though.
>>339911906
assmad tankcuck detected
>>339909954
They're all the most important.
If there's no DPS the fight will either last forever or hit an enrage timer if the game has one. If there's no tank the mobs will run wild and kill everything. If there's no healer no one will last long enough to do anything.
They all need each other. That's the point.the real question is which one do you want in the hands of your team's best player
>>339912018
That is the ideal situation but encounters and gear break that balance
I've played all 3, and I can safely say that without a competent or geared healer the group is 100% boned.
A healer can carry a shit tank and a shit DPS but a DPS and a tank can't carry a shit healer.
>>339912214
Yes they can what the fuck are you on?
DPS can carry both a shit tank and a shit healer.
Playing a level 60 DPSing White Mage in FFXIV is pretty fun you know. Always moving, having to make quick decisions and keeping your party in check.
>FFXIV
>>339912340
>FFXIV
>>339909954
Tank for keeping everyone else alive. Healer for keeping everyone alive. DPS for killing the boss before enrage and thus keeping everyone alive.
Short answer; fuck you.
>>339911732
>pick up your slack
Oh I thought we were talking about dpses not tanks
>>339912214
Sadly true. Whenever my internet decides to crap out on me while I am playing a healer I get yelled at, no one really notices all that much when it happens with other classes.
>>339912294
>what the fuck are you on?
Whoa buddy somebody put on their big boy pants today.
>>339909954
If you don't have DPS then its going to take fucking forever and the Tank will take too much damage that the Healer won't be able to recover
If you don't have a Healer then it makes encounters more tricky than they need to be which makes every single battle on a countdown to see how long the Tank can last then to the seconds of how long the DPS can last.
Without a Tank you risk the Healer getting targeted which will then poor back to the points in the healer section.
All roles are important, get your head out of your ass.
>>339912398
Been doing a tank/dps mix here recently. Because apparently we have a healer or two but everyone else is incompetent.
>>339911269
I always love seeing this stawman picture, it then reminds me that when i'm playing DPS i'm still doing the same mindless chaining that I do with Tank and Healer.
>FFXIV
>be level synced in a dungeon
>tank can't hold aggro
>doesn't use his aggro abilities
>"maybe you should watch your DPS!"
Friendly reminder that if a DPS drops out of the group, whoopdie fucking do we'll just reque for another one for about a minute or continue another. If a Tank drops then we have to wait a while BUT if a Warlock or Hunter are in the party then we can just keep on trucking. If a Healer drops then its time for the waiting game unless you want to start hardmode.
>>339912530
Nah, you clearly have no real experience and have no clue what you're talking about.
Real good attempt though.
>>339912981
>He doesn't want to start hardmode
I kinda wish there was another role, a crowd control de/buffer. They'd suck at doing damage, and can't heal nor can they tank, but they can control the battle field, and make tough enemies weak.
>>339911269
You forgot the part where the healer isn't putting out dps to help beat the enrage time.
>>339912981
That's not because healers are more crucial.
It's because people don't like to play healers since they're so nauseatingly boring.
>>339912981
>not starting hardmode
>>339913145
If you have room for such a thing then you take fewer healers. Cutting healers is one of the largest damage optimizations you can make.
>>339912294
A good tank can solo.
Game over
>>339910754
The entire thing became DPS only. It was completely retarded.
If you want people to work together in creative ways, you need class roles.
Maybe not healer-tank-dps but then some other type of class differentiation that distinctly gives characters different roles that must be combined to win.
Guildwars 2 basically made every class functionally the same: They were all self-sufficient DPS. The only class differentiation became how much DPS it could do (hence necromancers and rangers being considered shit tier).
They later SLIGHTLY tried to change this by making Mesmers boost dps of others and making guardians give temporary invulnerability to themselves or to the party.
And this turned the entire game into everything being just mesmers, guardians and warriors because they could do the most raw DPS. Any other classes could barely find groups.
>>339909954
None of them are more important than the other. If one is more important than another, then the dev has done a poor job of balancing their game.
>tanks and healers unironically thinking their roles take effort
New chart should look like this
>>339912994
Yeah mate my favourite past time is going on the internet and making up stories about my experience. I'm not saying a healer is the be all and end all, all roles are important in the shitty MMO holy trinity but the role which is the most difficult to compensate for is the healer, hence it being the most important.
When you reply don't forget to add your badass remark to show everyone on /v/ how tough you are.
>>339911125
>>339911387
we get it
pride kills everything
DPS are only there to kill the enemies faster. They are completely unrequired to finish the job.
The Tank does less damage so the fight will simply take longer. The healer will then back up the tank.
This does not work with a healer-dps combo because the dps is too squishy.
So basically, in any holy trinity game: The Tank and healers are both equally important. The DPS are peasants that are along for the ride.
>>339913407
We need healers that heal more effectively in melee range. That'll put some pep in their step.
>>339913476
Healers run out of mana resulting in the tank dying if the fight isn't over fast enough, hence the importance of the DPS.
>>339913398
Difficulty =/= importance
>>339911027
this is assuming that only healers can Brez, which isn't true in WoW and probably other MMOs
>>339913476
>The DPS are peasants
You're an idiot, but that's not surprising since you think a trinity is strong with only two parts
>>339913550
>what are mana potions
>play dps
>top meter
>never post meter
>get loot and leave
>>339913476
>The DPS are peasants that are along for the ride.
I'll see you at the enrage timer, friendo.
>>339913550
It would have been better to bring up enrage timers than going OOM
>>339913550
>tank dying
>tank needing heals
Thats not a real tank.
>>339913476
Too many healers and everyone dies.
Too many tanks and healers can't keep up simply because the enemies don't die fast enough.
Dealing damage is the single most important job there is, which is why every class has SOME sort of method of doing it.
Not every class need to take a bunch of damage
Not every class needs a heal.
But every class needs to be able to deal damage.
>>339913664
That's more for solo-play balance.
>>339913581
A group of DPS will fail.
A group of DPS and tanks will fail.
A group of DPS and healers will fail
A group of Tanks and healers will succeed, if slowly.
As such, DPS are the least important class.
>>339913631
The fact that a mechanic has had to be added JUST to make DPS marginally important shows you how unnecessary DPS actually are.
>>339913645
>tank that doesn't pull huge mobs
That's not a real tank.
>>339913645
If tanks completely healed or mitigate damage there wouldn't be a need for healers. The tank's role is to keep aggro and mitigate damage, making it easier on the healer.
>>339913748
>imblying
>>339913737
>A group of Tanks and healers will succeed, if slowly.
Sure, if the healers don't have to manage their mana.
>>339913664
>Dealing damage is the single most important job there is, which is why every class has SOME sort of method of doing it.
>Not every class need to take a bunch of damage
>Not every class needs a heal.
I fully agree with your post. DPS can only do damage, Tanks and healers can do both damage and tank/heal respectively.
As such, DPS are not relevant because they do not bring a unique talent to the table in the way tanks and healers do.
>>339913737
>A group of Tanks and healers will succeed, if slowly.
Incorrect. This assumes healers can constantly outheal damage and have no limit to how long they can perform. It also assumes enemies don't enrage.
>>339913820
If you're a tank that pulls tiny moves at a slow pace then you need to switch class.
>>339913418
I'm not the one using some EPIC reaction images.
There's a reason that you cut healers once you get anywhere near comfortable with a fight.
I'm really excited for your next reaction image to really enhance your shitty post.
>>339911387
Question solved, good DPS is the only necessary role.
>>339910093
Create a better system and get WoW subscriber numbers.
Paid, of course.
I'll even settle for current subscriber numbers instead of the peak.
Let me know when you're done. And remember, you'd be making several million a month at least.
>>339913873
>still implying the same thing, which I never said
Are you retarded m8?
>>339913842
>>339913861
See
>>339913582
Also, again, an enrage timer is added for the simple reason that DPS are otherwise not relevant. A mechanic had to be made specifically to cater to DPS, whereas the default gameplay (namely: The enemy and players deal damage to one another) does not require DPS at all.
An enrage timer is affirmative action in MMO.
>>339913860
>Tanks and healers can do both damage and tank/heal respectively.
Except they can't do it well enough to actually clear content. If what you're saying was true then nobody would ever play a DPS class because they would be superfluous.
But as it turns out DPS classes are the most populated because killing enemies quickly increases the survivability of everyone.
>>339911994
The only reason it's so hard to find a tank is it's the easiest and thus most boring job.
>>339913842
Damage taken doesn't magically increase so each healer has to heal less (by being good at avoiding overhealing or rotating healers) such that if there's any sort of mana regen, sustainability isn't a problem.
>>339910173
Depends on the mob dummy. The tank and healer are most important hands down though. Between those two, it's a toss up depending on the situation.
>>339913940
Tanks that pull tiny mobs have an easier time managing their own health. Tanks that do otherwise depend on their healer. If you're tanking without the help of a healer you're doing it wrong.
>>339914017
>Easiest
When you play tankspank games sure.
>>339913494
fistweaving was killed in wod.
And it was gay anyways.
>>339914002
Enrage timers were implemented to prevent players from getting frustrated at how long fights were taking without DPS. Failing a fight in 10 minutes is not nearly as taxing as failing a fight after 5 1/2 hours.
>play EQ healer
>have to juggle cooldowns between direct heals, HoTs, heal that recovers more based on target's HP, damage wards, death prevention, group heal with timed delay before it procs
>need to prioritize ailment recovery on all targets including myself, this shit has to be done instantly
>i'm still expected to DPS while this is all going on
stop playing games with shit healers
Where did the term Tank come from anyway? Character with a shield charging in and taking all damage = a tank?
>>339914196
Stop playing shit MMOs.
>>339914039
What game are you even using for this hypothetical?
>>339914295
The game he pulled from his ass where healers miraculously have infinite mana bars as long as they're good.
>>339913895
Nah, dps dies.
Good tank can dps.
>>339914065
I think you have autism if you can't comprehend what ive said twice. Youve implied something I have never said.
I never pulled tiny groups. As a dps hybrid me and other dps would kill entire dungeon pulls in seconds, never needing heals. Adding threat level + dps assures agro and kills mobs. Healers were only sometimes needed if undergeared people are present for res.
If you're trying to make a group probably a tanker. DPS is a diamond dozen, healers are a bit easier to find
>>339909954
none can succeed without the others
>>339914006
>Except they can't do it well enough to actually clear content.
Is that why it is tanks, or tank/healer hybrids, that regularly solo raids in Wow for example?
Garrosh got solo killed by a tank, just to give an example.
DPS classes are most populated because people do not want any responsibility. So they pick a role that is not extremely relevant or needed to clear content. In that way, if they fail to do their job, the entire party is not at risk.
Simply ask yourself:
If the healer does not heal, will the group probably wipe? The answer is yes. The tank will be eventually overwhelmed by the incoming damage and die.
If the tank does not tank, will the group probably wipe? The answer is yes, as the DPS are unable to both handle the incoming damage, and keep the healer safe.
If the DPS does not deal damage, does the group wipe? The answer is no. The tank will continue to deal damage to the enemies, which will eventually die.
>>339914146
It is exactly like you say: Before enrage timers were added, DPS were not relevant. Parties took tanks and healers because DPS are not required to complete content. This did result in some groups that were not good at doing their jobs wiping after a long fight.
The enrage timer was thus added to give DPS an artificial way to be useful. And this also made the fights shorter.
I am not disagreeing that DPS make fights take shorter. However, without the enrage timer that was added specifically to make DPS not useless, a DPS is not needed at all in a party.
>tanks and healers realize that most fights depend on one or the other doing their job right
>get to a DPS based fight
>wipe over and over because DPS players are dumb as rocks
>>339909954
tank and healer.
DPS only exist because of enrage timers. if they didn't exist DPS would be useless as you could just have a team of tanks and healers and literally never lose.
>>339913924
I agree. Post more cropped porn
>>339914494
Every time
>DPS have to complete a mechanic to win a fight
>For some strange reason, it's a fight which you wipe over and over on
>>339914478
You're so full of shit. Go fuck off to your magical MMO where DPS is unnecessary.
>>339914561
Usually it's because while you have 4 Tanks/Healers, you have 16/36 DPS that all have to be on the same page.
You can't even get 4 people on Dota 2 to be on the same page try 36 fuckheads who don't speak english.
>>339914478
Yes you fucking idiot if dps don't do good enough damage there are mechanics in play in many boss fights that wipe you.
Don't fucking talk out of your ass for fucks sake.
Anytime a retard like this attempts to know what he's talking about it makes me so fucking mad.
Who cares about old content that gets solo'd?
If we're going by your standard my guild ran 20 DPS and killed Blackfuse in 20 seconds. Fuck off, seriously.
>>339909954
Why isn't the healer bubble pink?
Are there any MMOs with mechanics that allow for really skilled players to solo bosses? I thought Tera would be like playing a tank but I think you still die with no healing
>>339914734
Don't bother. He'll just cry all day about how DPS classes are useless because they kicked his dog once.
I find the
> little rogue with silly daggers/bow does more damage than big guy with sword and shield
meme silly.
>>339909954
What games let me play as a mob?
>notice tank hasn't casted threat on awhile
>proceed to face fuck the healer and dps in front of him as he stands there crying
>>339914871
When was the last time you were mugged at sword point?
>>339914734
>you fucking idiot
>Don't fucking talk
>for fucks sake
>Anytime a retard like this
>makes me so fucking mad
>Fuck off, seriously
Whoa this guy means business
>>339914561
>Kilrogg in HFC
>all tank has to do is hit active mitigation while he casts shred armor
>DPS has to kill adds, stand in the vision circles and move around to not get hit by Death Throes or leave blood too close to him
>for some odd reason, this is the one unpugable fight in lower
really makes you think
>>339914295
Any game with mana regen. In some games like Wrath of the Lich King healers are infinitely sustainable even in normal conditions where they push as much healing as they can possibly do, but let's think of opposite hypothetical example: Let's suppose you have 5 man group content that's intended to be done by 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 damage-dealers but you instead do it with 1 tank and 4 healers. At any given moment, one of the healers can do the healing solo because that's what they are doing when doing the content "legit". Meanwhile, the three other healers can just regenerate and once the first healer runs out of mana, one of the others takes over (and with capable players who can avoid overhealing you don't need to use rotations as a crutch either). For this kind of approach not to work, mana regeneration must be very low indeed.
>>339914927
Uh oh you don't have a response so you'll point something out completely irrelevant to the topic on hand.
Haha kill yourself
>>339914792
You used to be able to do this in Ragnarok Online, of all things, until they made all bosses immune to shit like knockback and gave them superpowerful healing skills and the ability to infinitely respawn mobs.
It was possible to solo bosses with nearly any class if you had the right strategy. Wizards were really great at it through firewall, icewall, and stormgust and Hunters could work with charge arrow and doublestrafe.
You can't really do shit now, Wizard is literally fucked due to not being able to keep anything at bay with wall or gust knockback, and bosses teleport instantly to a random spot on the map if you pin them in icewall. Not even Safety wall really works due to infinite mob respawns tearing through it too fast, shit's fucking stupid.
>>339915028
>implying I'm him
Easy there, hothead. It's only video games.
>>339914671
>>339914734
>FUCK YOU IM DA BEST YOU CANT DO IT WITHOUT ME
You can literally tell if someone is DPS by how mad they get when they realize they aren't needed in a good squad because good healers/tanks can DPS as well and don't serve just a single purpose.
>>339915017
I would never be part of a group that takes 45 minutes of carefully coordinated scheduling to kill something that would have taken 2 minutes with an average party.
Protip: When enemies die faster, everyone takes less damage as a result, and everyone is safer.
>>339914671
>>339914734
Look, I know it is difficult to come to the realization that your job is essentially to make a fight take up less time and the Tank and Healer are the ones that are crucial to actually being able to finish the content.
Again, I think I said repeatedly that an enrage timer was added just to ensure DPS were not useless. Against bosses without this artificial mechanic, DPS are not needed.
I understand that if you are not that vital to the completion of a fight, you don't really bother to understand any of the mechanics of the game entirely.
It is like
>>339914494
>>339914561
>>339914997
Said. If there are mechanics added that might require the DPS to do something they do not understand it and the fight fails. So I won't argue too much with you because as I understand, DPS have trouble grasping fundamental mechanics.
They also apparently curse a lot and are underage but I suppose that comes with the frustration of not actually being able to find a counter-argument, other than "Fuck you" and "Muh enrage timer".
This is Mercy.
Mercy is a doctor (healer).
As a doctor, she has quite the expertise with every part of your being.
Including the size of your most treasured dick.
Your epeeen.
Indeed as she has to watch over you while you struggle to fight in tips odded to your favour and fail miserably at it.
And then you come home and want to be the man.
>>339915143
Like I said, go enjoy your MMO where you get to spend 6 weeks trying to clear a dungeon and continually fail because every time you attempt a boss (with luckily no enrage) your 6 healers end up shitting and pissing themselves from not leaving their chairs for 14 hours.
Meanwhile random pug shitters do the electric slide through the same dungeon 20 times and get 20x the rewards.
>>339914871
I would guess that the guy with the sword and shield uses his sword for more defensive purposes like deflecting or stopping blows rather than straight up attacking. He distracts the enemy so the rogue can get a good strike in.
I don't know much about swordsmanship, but I would think it would be hard to land a good blow against someone who is trying to kill you with their own sword.
>>339914871
I think the idea is that they target vital points with said daggers.bows
>>339915192
I'm so confused now.
You suddenly bring up player error in a discussion about the necessity of a role, are you going to actually make up your mind on what you're trying to bullshit?
Your post offered exactly no valid or new reasoning to your argument, congratulations.
>>339910093
unfortunately removal of the trinity without pushing for role diversity in a different manner (eg: a more complicated system with more roles) causes the group play to become more stale, rather than less
It is unfortunate that we've become so backed on this system that practically every game (even some non-rpg ones) fall back onto it in some way.
In the games that don't (eg: gw2) cause high level group play to favor groups that simply push out the most damage,
as more damage means less time the boss is alive
less time the boss is alive means less mechanics you have to worry about
The trinity might suck, but games are better off with it, than without it, however unfortunate this may be
>>339914792
guild wars 2, all of the boss attacks are avoidable. Some encounters you can't solo, but all of the bosses that don't spawn adds you can
>>339915180
If you look at the line of discussion (>>339913737 etc) it's clearly a theoretical discussion about the absolute necessity of each role.
Then again, when (soft) enrage mechanics were not a thing, it wasn't unheard of to run group setups similar to this. Hell, even in more modern games healers are sometimes stacked to cheese certain encounters relying on soft enrages.
>>339912081
Should we remove gear and simply let skills decide how good players are?
>>339915296
Nah, thats never happened. Like I said good tanks and healers can dps. Every hybrid tank build ive made in mutliple MMOs could output more than half the capacity of maxed DPS, which was on par with common-good DPS.
Maybe you should quit prescribing to conventional bullshit builds because you can't experiment and make something unique.
Stay mad that you aren't necessary. Maybe you are just playing with shitters and am also a shitter.
Tanks have historically been the most important
>>339915536
Because you have not refuted my argument. I was just adding that perhaps because DPS seem to have a typical trait of not understanding things, you might also not understand why DPS are not relevant to the completion of an encounter. And that I understood your anger and frustration in that context.
You keep calling it bullshit but you don't actually offer any new insights.
I am not saying DPS should be removed, or that they don't contribute to making fights last much shorter, but I am saying that they are not a vital role and that Healers and Tanks are.
>>339909954
Depends on the game 2bh. Old WoW would be tanks, new WoW would be dps.
Ranged DPS > Melee DPS > Tank > Healnigger
Marksman pride worldwide
>>339915192
>Against bosses without this artificial mechanic,
all mechanics are artificial, you can add mechanics other than an enrage timer to make DPS matter too. For example on this >>339914997 fight, there are two different adds. One adds a stacking debuff on anyone they damage that will eventually hard kill them no matter how good the healers are, the other is a ball of blood that oozes across the room towards the boss and explodes when it reaches him. Letting either of these live for too long WILL wipe your raid no matter what, regardless of healing, tanking or enrage
>>339914918
lol I haven't been mugged ever. But I assume muggers use knives/pistols rather than swords because they are easy to conceal. Running around the city with a sword just scrams MAD PSYCHO and will cause ppl to call the cops.
>>339915617
No, gear progression is one of those things that needs to exist in a PvE environment. PvP shouldn't be gear based though
>>339915296
I play a healer, I play pvp only, you're going to tell me who's important here.
Who do I have to keep alive?
a) A rogue, his dps and stuns are more important than the rest of the muscle of the team.
b) The tank so we keep the flag.
c) A warlock so he can fear away.
d) The pet of the hunter because it's kinda qt.
d) MYSELF SO YOU AREN'T ALL PANTLESS AND RAPED OVER AND OVER AND OVER BY AN ENEMY WHO ACTUALLY HAS AN ALIVE HEALER.
>>339915561
the problem is that mmotards are incapable of thinking outside the triangle, and whenever you present them with an idea for a game that doesn't use it they complain that it's not a real mmo anymore.
>tanks think they're important
>>339915640
Go do it, man. Stop talking about it and do it. Go run all day long dungeons and see how far that gets you because of your insistence that DPS classes are completely unnecessary.
If you want to stretch bullshit like that out I could just suggest that all content for all MMOs can be cleared with all DPS and no tanks and no healers because the DPS can simply either avoid, dodge, or prevent all damage if they're good enough or lucky enough.
But I'm not making that argument because it's completely unrealistic and unreasonable to expect it to occur. Just like your situation. DPS is necessary to actually win every encounter while still being a game worth playing. What you're describing is an idle skinner box.
>>339909954
Dragon's Dogma online could have done it but they gave that to NEXON
>>339915752
>gear progression is one of those things that needs to exist in a PvE environment.
Why?
>>339915754
>Who do I have to keep alive?
Everyone. Get back to work.
>>339915698
That's actually a good argument, and a pretty good mechanic. I suppose a Tank wouldn't be able to kill those enemies in time if they're fast enough.
That might be a good way to have the trinity and have everyone be equally important.
>>339915754
>I'm a faggot, I play pvp only, you're going to affirm my opinion
>Who do I need to keep alive
>The DPS actually doing the killing, because pvp isnt just staying alive longer than they do
>A tank so the objective isnt lost
>A warlock doing more dps than me
>the ebin lel so randumb pet
>myself because I'm a whore and have multiple tumblr accounts
Neck yourself.
>>339915683
dumbest motherfucker in this thread, no joke
>>339915683
>marksmen
>anything but faggots
nice try but no your basically elf faggots, and thats just the worst
>>339915907
You ALMOST developed "healer eyes" for a second there, m8
>>339915956
Look at this shit-ranked faggot.
Here, look at involuntary healer vision
(tm) revealed to you from another faggot.
>>339915907
Now stfu about role importance when you don't have every perspective at your disposal.
>>339915896
It keeps people playing the game
>>339915896
Because then all encounters would become mechanic based and you can only keep that up for so long
>>339915851
>Go do it man
I already did you autist. Jesus christ, son.
i don't play MMO garbage any more, but I spent about 10 years of my life playing multiple MMOs at one point.
This is shit Ive already done you sperg. Lol. DPS always get the most butthurt in MMOs. They are 90% of the time beta fags who think they are some hot shit, when they can actually be replaced. Its pretty hilarious how consistent this personality is with DPS mains.
>>339916095
people play games like starcraft and counterstrike for over a decade without gear progression or any kind of treadmill mechanics. maybe if mmo gameplay wasn't complete shit people wouldn't need to see bigger numbers to want to keep playing.
>>339909954
Out of all of those healer is the most likely to not do their job, and the most likely to piss their panties when you call them on it.
>>339916095
Killing bosses and raids would let players have cosmetic gear, mounts, fun items.
>>339916175
It's either mechanic based or gearcheck. Gear checks are boring, mechanic based fights are made easier and easier by better gear.
>>339916216
just point them to this post so they realize their actual penis size is very well known to those they want to despise.
>>339915235
We're the only ones keeping you alive here, you hapless pussies, we know how truly "hot shit" you are.
>>339915851
Good tank/healer can DPS well enough. Ive said this multiple times. DPS is just single purpose and thus worth less.
>>339915896
Look at Guildwars 2 where they didn't do that initially: You only got skins, not functionally better gear. People stopped running dungeons and the playerbase began to dwindle.
They had to add in a gear treadmill to keep things going. Of course they fucked up big time and made it into an insanely grindy process that made players see no improvement for months instead of a nice incremental system.
Fuck GW2 was a mess. What a disappointment compared to GW1 (Which also had no gear treadmill but had a very good story mode).
>>339916216
>i don't play MMO garbage any more
Probably because you actively ignore the most effective method to play and instead opt for incredibly boring and time consuming tasks simply because you won't let go of your ridiculous bigotry against people who play DPS classes.
Everyone's got a job to do, and if you're walking around talking shit to people like what they do isn't important then yeah they're going to shit all over your experiences in the game and you'll be left even angrier than when you started. Proof: your whole buttwhine rant.
>>339916335
>Killing bosses and raids would let players have cosmetic gear, mounts, fun items.
Then people who don't get them will whine like the entitled brat they are. The devs will give in eventually and the downfall begins
>>339916392
Not him but I don't play MMOs anymore because nobody makes good MMOs anymore.
Healer.
>>339916343
>well enough
Well enough is not good enough for anyone. Actually run a dungeon without dealing the damage you need to and you'll swiftly realize the game is fucking tedious and boring. Dealing damage quickly is the one constant that keeps a game actually a game and not a waiting simulator.
>>339916396
People already whine, not listening to them is not impossible. Case in point the moose mount from heroic Archimonde.
>>339916392
>Everyone's got a job to do
Exactly, and don't you shit talk the healer because that's as intimate as it gets, he's seeing each and every one of your mistakes and fixing them.
>>339916439
Fair point, but if an MMO came out with only tank classes and healer classes would you play it?
Probably not unless the content was made easy enough and quick enough for that sort of balance to work.
>playing 14
>If I tank, the dungeons take a thousand years because the healers won't dps, and the dps are fucking terrible. Nothing I can do will speed the run up any faster.
>if I heal, the tank dies to a breathe of fresh air. Can barely deeps or the tank dies, then we all die. Actual dps are functionally retarded, run still takes 55 minutes.
>if I DPS, things actually die but then the healer lets the tank die or the tank whiffs a cooldown/pull and goes down. Run takes longer due to constant wipes.
Why does nobody in ff14 actually fucking try? God forbid you put even a single iota of effort into this run, because I love having runs take 55 minutes due to people being asleep at the wheel.
>>339915679
Okay let's count the fights in a recent raid that required DPS and would have never worked with out.
Let's take BRF.
Gruul: Able to be done with your idea of a reasonable comp.
Oregorger: Needs to kill the boxes or he would roll and stay in the phase forever and murder your raid.
Blast Furnace: killing the elementals on the casters to kill them and needing to hurrying kill said casters.
Retard Twins: Stampers
Female Sword Orc: Able to be done
Kromag: hands need to be killed or you die.
Beastmaster: Adds need to die and last phase is a burn phase.
Train: Massive amounts of adds that need to be killed fast, or boys will heal and eventually die to trains.
Iron Maidens: need DPS to jump over and stop the group from getting 1 shot by the cannon.
Blackhand: Massive burn phase last phase and the balconies need to die ASAP.
Please stop being delusional and thinking DPS aren't needed 100% of the time.
>>339915561
The thing is that the trinity is some made up abstract form of combat that doesn't represent real life combat at all. That's not inherently a problem, the problem is that developers don't want to learn from real combat to create systems that break the mold. In reality combat is one of two things, tactics and technique, with strategy being its own thing. Tactics is control of the battlefield, which requires groups working cohesively to control spacing, ground, flanks and all sorts of other things. Technique is actually the melee and ranged combat. The trinity focuses too much on technique to the point where you have made up roles, and the only forms of tactics in most MMOs are things AOE spells controlling space, which is pointless because movement and space means pretty much nothing in MMOs.
>>339916392
You are literally retarded and entirely too butthurt that a decade ago I didnt require people who played your class in a video game.
You might want to re-evaluate your life.
Also this.
>>339916439
>>339914478
>garrosh got soloed by a tank
>blood dk
>tank
>blood dk
>not tank, healer, and dps
it was also normal mode have fun doing no dps mythics
>>339916490
>Well enough is not well enough!
Why are you so mad? Lol, did I trigger your DPS e-peen envy?
>>339916563
I don't see how that could possibly work, I mean you need someone to do damage or shit just lives forever.
Like, are you waiting for an explosion to happen or are you waiting for the mob to hit itself? I don't understand.
Full party of DPS that can soft tank with one healer and a buff support is superior.
TP and MP burn parties were fun as fuck in FFXI.
Holy trinity literally killed the concept of fun.
Why is who so against buffer classes? just come up with 3 buffer spec, each spec bring all and the same buffs, and make people decide how many buffers and what buffs use.
>>339916678
XI had a robust class system but you still had tanks, healers and DD. You just also had buffers and debuffers and pullers and hate managers and thieves that could affect drop rates and white mages that could reduce the amount of EXP you lost when you died.
>>339916571
Wasn't my class, clown. You think people need to be personally offended to correct your stupid ideas? You're acting like taking out a crucial factor in a genre of games like it's completely superfluous.
Tanks are completely useless in a make believe MMO where enemies don't have aggro; they simply do the same amount of damage to everyone regardless.
Healers are completely useless in a make believe MMO where all players regenerate their own hit points over time and can heal with their own skills or items.
It all depends on how the game is balanced and it can totally work!
All of that is possible but it would make the games LESS FUN. That's the point. You can talk all the shit you want but your idea would ruin the game and it's why games don't fucking do it; especially not anymore.
>>339915896
Not him, but I'd argue it's quite crucial for satisfying progression because improved gear indirectly nerfs the encounters. After all, when gear is involved, each group gets to do the content when it is challenging within the context of their skill level (modified by how optimal their group setup is etc).
Consider this, for example: An encounter is designed to be at the very edge of mathematical possibility with the most ideal group composition. It'll be challenging for the hardcore, but everyone else? They'll never be able to defeat it. Even the most skilled groups won't, unless they use exactly the same group composition as the other guys. Or let's suppose the tuning is more lenient. It's a pushover for the hardcore and they'll defeat it in a few tries max.
Moreover, gear is one additional avenue for character-building/ specialization/theorycrafting. For example, the balancing act between threat/damage/guaranteed mitigation/effective health/avoidance/whatever for tanks might be an interesting one. Gear also causes the social dynamic to change (for example, groups that reward loot to players who benefit from it the most are expected to have greater success, while other groups might use it to provide an incentive to staying loyal to the group by prioritizing their veteran players) and social interaction is a key part of MMOs.
>>339915896
Not him but it's also essential to PvP in an MMORPG. What's there to do if you're not leveling up and getting gear? Nothing? Seriously what the fuck would you be doing?
>>339915937
for all the shit they (mostly deservedly) get, Blizzard is pretty good at designing raids with mechanics that make DPS necessary. There's a fair few fights in HFC that need DPS for reasons other than lolenrage
>>339909954
All of them you scrub.
Thats the design.
>>339916836
FFXI played more like a traditional RPG in its class system rather than the holy trinity MMO system.
Between the oddball ways you could utilize class skills and the sub job system you ended up with shadow tanking, TP burn parties with no tanks, stun parties, etc.
Only HNM/Sky/Sea/Dynamis content ever got bogged down in a strict dogmatic way of play and that usually required you to hot swap alliance parties for buffs/debuffs/skill chain+magic burst hits.
>>339917037
Making new female characters of different races, removing all of their armor, and doing dance emotes in populated areas.
What the fuck else is there? Gear? Why would I want to PUT ON clothes?!?
>>339916909
>everyone else?
They can do easier content, they can get better. Not everyone does the same content even with the gear system there is now.
> the balancing act between threat/damage/guaranteed mitigation/effective health/avoidance/whatever for tanks might be an interesting one.
This can be achieved by spells and skills.
>Gear also causes the social dynamic to change
Everything you said can be applied to cosmetic loot.
>>339917037
>What's there to do if you're not leveling up and getting gear?
Having fun, beating new bosses, getting cosmetic gear, defeat the other factions in pvp.
>>339916879
No.
>>339917172
Your argument got dookied on.
>>339911165
thank you for not being retarded and understanding the core reason the trinity exists. the only way to remove it is by removing the need to eliminate the numbers entirely, which is quite impossible considering programs need numbers to make calculations.
>>339911165
Wow someone who isn't brain dead is in this thread.
>>339916879
>a game is LESS FUN if there are more than 3 exact class builds
I prefered games where changing your gear and utilizing different skill trees actually had an effect instead of every class type resulting in the exact same, archaic "UR A TANK OR DPS OR HEALS". Make a good hybrid class and you can eliminate one of the other classes in a party as long as the other people aren't shit and know how to debuff, dps, and attack weaknesses in bosses.
Basically, git gud.
>>339917118
>>339917150
First of all there's better ways to fap to digital girls then to push this into MMORPGs. It has literally over-run MMORPGs and some other genres of video games as well. If an MMORPG doesn't have an extremely robust character creator where you can command the size of the character's hips, chest and crotch area it's somehow assumed dead on fucking arrival. That's the general reception it gets, anyway. It's one of the main reasons why MMOs are so shit today.
Second what's the point of beating bosses and PvP if you're not becoming more powerful? What's the motivation? Do you expect every boss fight to have a tidbit of story or lore or something attached to it? That would be absurd. Or an achievement? I'm sorry to tell you that achievements are for fucking casuals and I can prove it. Have you ever seen an achievement for having the world first boss kill? Or for being the best duelist on the server? Or an achievement for having the first drop off a specific boss? No, right? It's usually "Walk two steps! Bing! Achievement! Yaaay!"
Lastly who gives a fuck about cosmetic gear? It doesn't mean anything. Sure it probably looks better but you usually didn't earn it through any strenuous means and it doesn't do anything to make you more powerful.
>>339917548
That has 0 to do with players and everything to do with the game's design.
>>339917575
>Second what's the point of beating bosses and PvP if you're not becoming more powerful? What's the motivation?
How many times do I have to say it? you can get rewards, just not gear that makes you better.
>>339917693
I really want what you say to be viable. However, it has been tried with Guildwars 2 and it didn't work. People stopped playing.
>>339916569
All of BRF heroic was done with only blood DKs
>>339916570
It would be nice to see debuffs have other effects based on who you used them on, like in older fantasy games, fire for example, it stops trolls from regenerating, strikes fear into those on the other end and ultimately can be extinguished with water or smothering in other ways
Too few games in general let you stop drop n roll
the last one I can remember was Loadout
>>339909954
Tank
They usually have some self heals, tank durability and some dps to grab aggro
An tank tanky enough can kill any enemy, it would just take them a very long time.
Dps has no self heals and even if healer can deal damage, they take more damage than a tank would because of the mitigation all tanks have, so the healer's heals become less efficient, she runs out of mana and dies.
>>339910173
Dps has no damage mitigation so he takes more damage, healer has to use more mana and runs oom.
Tank has low damage so the healer has to keep casting for a longer time but you need to spend less mana per second than in the healer + dps scenario.
It's easier to kill a mob with tank + healer than dps + healer, but both tank and healer need each other.
Basically tank + healer is the OTP and dps is the party cuck that does the button mashing while the tank and healer ERP.
>>339917915
Good thing I'm not talking about heroic.
Literal babies can do LFR and that doesn't mean anything.
>>339917693
BUT WHY?! What the fuck sort of rewards would warrant you wanting to do these things? Literally every MMORPG I've ever played has had at least the chance at getting some sort of improvement to your character. Literally every single MMORPG I've ever played and there's a lot of them. Too many to list.
To sharpen my point back when I played WoW most people who raided did so to become better at PvP. They didn't raid because they enjoyed raiding, they raided because they wanted to become better then the motherfucker on the other team.
The whole idea reeks of this sort of... all-inclusive mentality where everyone should always be equal at all times. The whole premise of an MMORPG is to make your character grow. Yes, some characters are going to be weaker than others. Deal with it. It's not like that character too can't improve.
>>339917601
Players don't normally do hybrid characters because they think there is no benefit to unconventional stats or are stuck in that same mindset that they can only do one job the best they can do because thats hust how it werkz! Experimenting in MMOs was fun. Tank rogues that could beat warriors/tanks two tiers above their skill/equip level, tank dps that can out-DPS most DPS. Things no one expected and they got their asses handed to them or shown I could do their job as well or better.
Good hybrid DPS can tank, good hybrid tank can DPS. It has everything to do with the player. If the game is designed where there is no area for innovative class alterations its shit.
>>339918057
That's only because mmo players have been conditioned and guided into what is more convenient for the developers, and they accept it because it's what they are are used to.
>>339918095
Once a fucking gain that has nothing to do with the players. It has everything to do with the game's design. Your last sentence illustrates my exact fucking point. If the game is not designed around it then hybrid classes are stinking hot garbage. If they are designed around it then the players will naturally go there because it's the better choice.
Players gravitate towards the trinity when the trinity is the most efficient and effective method to play.
Players will always do that.
So once again in case you only read the first and last sentence of my post, IT HAS FUCK ALL TO DO WITH THE PLAYERS.
>Be tank
>Some asshole DPS pulls shit
>Team wipe
>Kicked for being shit tank
>Be healer
>Tank bites off more than he can chew
>Team wipe
>Get kicked for shit heals
>Be DPS
>Some asshole, myself included, fucks up
>Everyone blames Tank and Healer
>Not kicked
>>339909954
Well in a boss fight everyone is equally important.
For everything else tank is king.
Literally every game is easiest when you are the tank.
>>339918276
>be me
>green text stuff that doesn't happen in hope to get responses
>>339918412
>Implying
>>339917960
expect boss has enrage timer and tank cant do enough damage.
>>339918246
Okay, maybe but I'm asking you for an alternative while trying to explain why "no levels, no loot" doesn't really make a very interesting MMORPG unless the gameplay is extremely PvP-central and actually fun.
It just seems like the sort of thing someone who wants to avoid PvP would say without realizing that would mean an even-more PvP-central game.
Crowd Control.
>>339909954
DPS that can heal itself
>>339909954
A DPS that can one shot a mob doesn't need a tank or a healer
DPS wins
>>339918515
>in a 1v1 boss fight
>>339918457
>It just seems like the sort of thing someone who wants to avoid PvP would say without realizing that would mean an even-more PvP-central game.
I said it myself that pvp would be one of the alternatives to lack of gear progression.
>" doesn't really make a very interesting MMORPG unless the gameplay is extremely PvP-central
The other solution is that fights are as they are now, with skills, spells, tactics, and having to know what to do.
Literally the only difference is that you wouldn't see bigger numbers as you go on.
Top 5 world raider here.
Healer=DPS > Tank
>>339917150
Not everyone necessarily "deserves" to do all content but without indirect nerfs from gear in place, you're providing a satisfying difficulty level for a VERY small slice of the skill spectrum. When gear is involved, everyone doing the content will be challenged to a similar subjective degree (and indirect nerfs from gear available prior to any particular boss only go so far: some encounters will be forever off-limits for worse groups).
All customization is good and gear is another layer. Of course, you could technically obtain the same results from passive stats as well, but that's kinda boring in comparison and isn't flexible the same way (being able to switch around gear a bit for each encounter).
Cosmetic look doesn't bring the good of the team into equation. Moreover, all equipment has visuals while only some players care about cosmetics so it's an incentive for more players, especially when you again remember the good of the team (if you only care about cosmetics, once you get your desired set, you have no incentives to do ANY content, while you are helping yourself by helping others gearing up).
>>339913296
But takes a long time to complete one single dungeon and makes the game boring.
I did that in Dragon Nest and got bored at level 53.
>>339918638
>Top 5 world raider here.
what a meaningless and useless post
>>339909954
Tank that can output damage. can literally sub the healer for items
>>339918057
Everyone deserves a slice of the same pie, regardless if they put 1 hour in the game or 8 hours.
People with _actual lives_ shouldn't be punished for not being basement-dwelling nerds who make the game their real life. That's why microtransactions and limiting the amount of EXP/items you gain in a day are a good solution, because it helps level the playing field.There are people who actually believe this.
>>339918643
>you have no incentives to do ANY content
The incentive is letting other people in your guild/friend list get the stuff they want. It's collecting crafting material for your profession.
> you're providing a satisfying difficulty level for a VERY small slice of the skill spectrum
No, proper developers would be able to give adequate challenge for everyone.
Can we just all agree that the original skills-based system that Star Wars Galaxies had was by far the most revolutionary and best MMO system ever?
And that once they went with a Holy Trinity (and made Jedi just a starter class, pic related) it was ruined?
>>339918736
Means my opinion heavily out values yours because I have the most experience with this subject.
>doing Toiletland raid
>Jimmy won't heal us
>Melonhead doesn't stunlock
>Ed doesn't go tank
>>339918781
My idea goes directly against this, loot getting better and better is what allows casuals to do harder content (even if at a later time).
>>339918270
What's your point anon? Besides being unreasonably mad? You are literally going off in mad-tangents.
Your initial argument was that I don't play MMOs any more because I didnt play like you would prefer and that alternative builds ruin a game. You are literally retarded m8.
I'm sorry you are mad that Ive played many MMOs until complete endgame often disregarding youre autistic need to use every class exactly how everyone else does.
Again, you might want to re-evaluate your life investing so much emotion into how some random stranger on the internet played MMOs a decade ago.
>>339918670
Not in my experience, always ran dungeons fast and not reliant upon specific class types. Get better party members or better solo gear.
>>339913476
>squishy
STOP DELETE THIS MEME RIGHT NOW I WON'T LET YOU DO IT
They're all important. There's a reason they're all essential.
A sort of inflated importance is placed on tanks because there is always a shortage of them.
>>339918827
>didn't say the game
>didn't specify whether "top 5" means guild or player and how a player can even be top 5 at something
>no proofs
kill yourself
>one role to deal damage
>two roles to soak damage
Why are tank and healer separate?
>>339918057
Not the guy you were talking too but.
>when I played WoW most people who raided did so to become better at PvP
That's false, while the numbers have gone down over time even in vanilla the crossover between raiders and consistent pvp has never been that high in either direction.
On topic there is no most important role because the trinity evolved naturally it wasn't designed.
Because mmo (and p&p-rpgs) combat is numerically based it makes sense; one guy spends more points on defensive traits so the other guys can ignore them because they expect to be taking little to no damage while the third guy takes all the healing shit.
>>339909954
You need all 3 roles
There is no more important role
Remember when mages were mages, warriors were warriors and priests were priests and there were classes in MMOs and not 3 classes with different colours?
>>339918754
>Tanks that can survive hits while also being able to deal meaningful damage and items can keep a tank with no survivability alive against meaningful content.
Whoever designed that game needs to be shot.
>>339910776
You deal less damage than a designated damage build and are less tanky than the designated tank build. Great for solo, but you are useless in group content.
>>339910308
It could have worked but the SJWs ruined everything as usual. I liked doing dungeons though. We had a thief that did okay damage and was spamming stealth to help us skip mobs, a phalanx warrior that did okay damage and buffed everyone with like thirty different buffs, we had elementalist who did amazing damage and literally nothing else and the fourth guy who was usually a random guy paying us to do the dungeon for him. We didn't need a tank or a healer because everyone could heal himself and all of the relevant incoming damage was telegraphed. We needed utility though. It was great.
The thing we had in common was that we could all do damage, maybe even solo bosses if we played well. Elementalist did a little bit more and would probably get replaced for a class with similar damage and more utility. There really wasn't a holy trinity. More like holy eightity? You didn't want more dps, more tanks, more heals, you wanted more warriors, more guardians, more thieves. Does that make sense?
PvP had a different holy trinity where you had support guys who spammed buffs in full tank gear, power guys who did physical damage with crits and all that, condition damage guys who did damage over time
So supports charged first, condition guys spread their conditions everywhere and then physical damage guys killed what remained. You needed all three of those in your team because supports were immortal and their buffs were huge but they did no damage. Power guys had burst and simple, unconditional damage but were squishy as fuck. Condition guys were somewhat tanky and did way more damage than power builds because condition damage is not mitigated by armour/toughness but they were vulnerable to condition removal which most classes had a fair amount of and supports literally shat it out of every orifice.
>>339918625
>pvp would be one of the alternatives to lack of gear progression
It's not an alternative. It's simply a method of describing who you're fighting or what you're competing against (player versus environment, player vs player.) A game with a lack of gear progression would probably be mostly PvP because PvE encounters would either be way too easy or way too hard. And not only that but the entire world - if based wholly on PvP - would have to change and mold to a player-driven story, economy, relations and so on. Not only is this difficult to achieve but also impossible to police. The moment a GM steps in they're going to be playing favorites for somebody and they'll have very large consequences. And while this sounds extremely appealing to me it's also extremely difficult to pull off properly. In-fact it's never been done.
PvP doesn't even need to be balanced. Balance is a word that's thrown around too much when talking about MMORPGs. Someone played more than you and got luckier with drops, therefor they have much better odds than beating you. That's why you team up with other players or come up with new strategies, or spend time becoming better geared.
>>339919026
I was actually talking specifically about Vanilla since raiding guilds and shit became mostly irrelevant once BC hit. But shit was pretty competitive back then. Were there hardcore raiders who only raided? Yes. Were there hardcore PvPers that only PvP'd? Yes, but not successfully (since you needed PvE items to be good in PvP.) In-fact anyone who did PvP very seriously knew this and at least attempted it.
And from personal experience I'd say that healing is the most interesting role as it becomes the most intimate, as another anon pointed out. They watch everyone's mistakes and patches them up. It doesn't make them the best or most noble class but certainly the most interesting and intimate.
>>339911165
>he forgot "prevent damage"
>he samefagged his own piss poor analysis
There are several ways developers can and have added more roles than the holy trinity. People just spazz out because at this point they want to "play the healer" in the same way people in shooters cry if they cant "snipe". In the end developers will always cater to these players as deviation from expectations is both risky and expensive.
