Let the rant begin; As a person who played LoL, SC2, and CSGO at the higher end of MM level of play, [masters, masters, GE] I have to say, the amount of posts I'm seeing regarding nerfs and buffs to characters ALREADY, is very worrying.
Overwatch has been out for a very short period of time, there has been no where near enough to time actually think there's enough evidence to suggest certain characters need nerfs or buffs. This behavior is incredibly common in online multiplayer games in our day and age, and the reason for this is because people who struggle with a certain thing would rather whine and suggest it be weakened rather than adapting or figuring out a different way to approach said obstacle. The biggest one I've been seeing is McCree, which he alone could provide an essay of text to talk about, this post is specifically directed at the broad picture being; When you have trouble beating something in a game, think of ways to beat it or adapt to it, rather than immediately coming to the conclusion that whatever you're facing is simply too strong and that you're at a complete unfair disadvantage.
An example of a community that has perfected this is the SSBM community. Some would argue there's a tier list in melee yet any of the viable characters can win against one another at ALL levels of play. And that's due to years of adapting and learning new ways to deal with each matchup. NOT due to Nintendo toning down fox ;) That's the type of community that keeps a game relevant for well over a decade!
I'm not trying to say the game is perfectly balanced right now, but for the love of god, give the game some time to breathe and grow before automatically crying for changes!
>>339786824
>When you have trouble beating something in a game, think of ways to beat it or adapt to it,
>lol switch characters mid game or get fucked
nah i just stopped playing
>>339786824
Aren't like LoL characters (who are almost always OP on release) nerfed pretty quickly after? What's your point?
Didn't riot completely overhaul some old characters as well? Seems strange to mess with things already so concrete
>>339786824
>higher end of MM level play
>GE
thanks man, i needed a laugh
kneejerk reaction nerfs are the worst kind of balance
>>339786824
Game is hardly new, meta has been developing in beta since 6 months.
It's not "too soon", most of the stuff has already been mulled over.
There IS a tier list for Melee. What years of playing has uncovered is that more than just Fox is viable. Characters like Marth, Sheik, Puff, and sometimes Peach. This provides a microcosm of relative powers that makes Melee still interesting. If Melee was actually Fox only it would be deader than Marvel.
These overpowered characters are a problem if you play a lower tier character because depending on the relative power levels the higher tier characters may invalidate your low tier. It's important to note that all that pushing a game that has balance issues does is reveal what's already there; it won't fix what's broken. What was discovered in Melee was that it wasn't as imbalanced as people thought, what was discovered in Brawl was that it was extremely imbalanced and was rightfully shitcanned.
McCree needs a nerf. As someone who followed the development of Smash 4 from the beginning I know that it was nearly dead before the patch that removed Diddy's Hoo Ha hit, and that was a few months into its life cycle. Mewtwo will never be good in Melee, but thanks to patches he went from bottom to arguably top tier in Smash 4.
>>339788823
McCree doesn't need to be nerfed. People just need to learn how to adapt just like how they adapted to Fox.
>>339786824
can i get a link to your blog?
>>339789248
The only way to adapt is to have a better McCree
Why do you think every pro team runs 2 per team? Because he's balanced?
>>339788823
Mcree is fine where he is. He's fairly week long range, decent mid, and a beast up close. He's easily countered mid-long range by characters that excel there & getting in range to stun leaves him open for Roadhog ganks. His Ult is also easy to cancel by killing him while he lines up shots, or popping off an ice wall with Mei.
>>339786824
>Maps are mostly hallways and chokepoints
>press e to get a free kill 100% of the time if a non tank class comes around the corner
Fun mechanic :^)
>>339786824
>An example of a community that has perfected this is the SSB64 community. Some would argue there's a tier list in 64 yet any of the viable characters can win against one another at ALL levels of play. And that's due to years of adapting and learning new ways to deal with each matchup. NOT due to Nintendo toning down kirby ;) That's the type of community that keeps a game relevant for well over a decade!
>>339786824
There's no counterplay to McCree though and competitive teams use 2 of him on both sides every match.
That's telling.
The closest thing to counterplay for a McCree is snipers, but the problem with that is that McCree doesn't go through the middle lane where snipers have line of sight, ever. McCrees pick sidestreets and buildings where they have cover, it's better for their fighting style anyway. In fact as McCree I know how to get to many of the sniper perches and start a round by flanking and flash/fanning the sniper dead.
See the thing is for defense McCrees, people go down the side paths to flank the defensive characters like snipers, turrets, bastions, junkrats, etc
The counterplay to Bastion and Snipers is flanking
But when that counterplay is countered with McCree, that's the end of it, you don't get past McCree on side passages, and without being able to flank snipers and Bastions (particularly those protected by Reinhardts), now they're a problem, where if you can flank and kill them, they're not.
If Counterplay includes "just don't go where they are" that's an unbalanced character.
>>339789536
A decent mcree can blow your fucking brains out across the map and instagib any hero at close range.He can fight at literally any range and isnt a complete glass cannon.
>smash community
>perfected to adapting
Like they "adapt" nintendo to buff/nerf everything in sm4sh?
Like they "adapt" to slower or floatier gameplay?
Like they "adapt" to items or stage hazards?
Fox only final destination is more than just a meme you know. Sure, the inner circle of top tier players may be above that, but the community sure as motherfuck ain't.
I'd argue many top tier players are still babies as well.But we all know this is bait anyway, right?
>>339786824
It's your own fault for playing a shit tier casual game, made for casual shit tier shitters, which has a toxic babby community. You only have yourself to blame.
>>339789683
Genji counters the shit out of mcree, just don't get close enough to be stunned.
In fact, mcree in general is weak against multiple people. He's SUPPOSED to be strong against 1v1. The biggest issue is that the mcree's can easily ambush you due to windowlicker ult being up 24/7 so they KNOW where you are.
Also junkrat.
Lots of junkrat.
Blow that motherfucker up.
>>339790257
>Fox only final destination is more than just a meme you know
How to spot a retard.
>>339789683
And in those corridors he's only really going to meet Tracer/Reaper/Mcree/Genji. Tracer can jump through Fanshot before it kills her unless it was a headshot, unload while he reloads, then rewind back around the corner or jump away. She should be jumping behind or back around the corner any time she meets any hero anyways. Genji is similar being able to dash away or through, leaving Mcree at a major disadvantage with his deflect/high damage.
Mcree is an obvious Mcree counter, which just leaves Reaper hoping he can get a headshot or back off with Wraith Form before Mcree lands stun. Though he can avoid most by teleporting to different points anyways.
>>339789908
A decent Mcree is asshole compared to Widow & Hanzo at long range.
>>339786824
People are bitching because they're bad and don't know how counters work. McCree isn't that powerful if you keep him at range.
The new one for people to bitch about is Widowmaker which is insane because she's not that good compared to every sniper in other games and she STILL makes people salty
>>339786824
Fortunately, the closed beta has been going on for a very long period of time and Blizzard has already stated that McRee is too powerful and they will be toning him down.
Several abilities that McRee has, when used in tandem, are incredibly powerful against all heroes and are toxic and unfun to play against.
Fan does far too much burst DPS to not be on some manner of cooldown. Flashbang has a very short cooldown as well. Deadeye also refunds 50% of its ult energy if it isn't used; no other ultimate in the game can do this.
Fucker is broken. Luckily, Blizzard already knows this is changes will be coming soon, so now it's just a matter of weathering broken cowboy play until then.
>>339790257
>Fox only final destination is more than just a meme you know
Thanks for proving you know nothing about melee. Go stick to baby fighting games like SFV.
>>339791118
>ult that gives her entire team wallhacks and is nearly silent to the other team so you don't know when they can see you through walls
>semiautomatic sniper that can one shot some heroes with body shots, can fire 6 shots off in rapid succession fishing for headshots, full charge in 1s (no seriously you can watch widowmakers fire 5-6 times in a row trying to hit someone before one shotting them)
>Highly mobile and has a close range weapon that can defend her from flankers.
I mean she is a bit overtuned, but not as bad as McCree because she can still be easily countered
All she really needs is to announce her ult to the enemy team just like everyone else, and make her scoped shots cost more ammo and have a slower charging rate so shitty Widowmakers can't just fish for headshots.
>>339790792
>>339791765
>this assmad because they KNOW the root of the issue is that everybody else was tired of meleefag bullshit and started mocking them
Also I hate SF style fighters you cuckafucks. In fact I actually LIKE smash, and even melee, but you shitfucks ruin any fun to be had. If it makes you feel better you're not just a phenomenon in smash, but every competitive scene everywhere. Just that due to the normie influx from smash that was their first real exposure to it. Tryhards is what you WERE called before that term was fucking ruined by retards with no context of what the term means. But you were always shitters that try to emulate people better than you and think you're better than others for it. And still get your shit stomped.
fan the hammer nerf will only affect tank survivability vs. mccree.
i mean, did you really need to fan the hammer to kill a flashbanged offense/defense/support hero? just aim at their head and one or two bullets is enough.
the real problem with mccree is that his gun is too damn good.
McCree: instant kill at close to mediumrange, don't need to aim because of flashbang stun
Reaper: need to aim against fully moving target to kill them in two to three shot at close range, more shots at medium range
there's a problem when McCree uses his pistol as a more effective shotgun than an actual shotgun
>>339786824
You sad silly bastard, you play Blizzard game, they are catering to casuals, they realised long time ago that catering to hardcore will not bring them money, so if you expect that your "skill" wll be apriciated in this game, even tho you have so much limitation to show your individual skill in this game, you gonna have a bad time.
Blizard doesnt care, they just want masses,
>masses of people = masses of money
>>339786824
This game won't be in the list with LoL, SC2, CS:GO, or even call of duty.
It's a forced meme spammed and advertised, which thousands of people took the bait.
The characters are all linear paper rock scissors which means it's even less dynamic than TF2; class/character wise.
>>339786824
>I have to say, the amount of posts I'm seeing regarding nerfs and buffs to characters ALREADY, is very worrying.
Fucking, why?
The game has been out for what, a week? Two weeks? Discerning what characters to buff or nerf is literally the first thing every single low-experience gamer thinks about, often before actually fucking playing the game. Have you ever been on the LoL message boards when a new character is announced? Or on here, when a new Smash Bros game releases? "NERF X CHARACTER" always, ALWAYS outnumbers every single other type of thread of a given game three to one.
If specific trends pop up over the coming months, then you might have something. Right now, the only thing fifteen "NERF MCREE/WIDOWMAKER/JUNKRAT/MEI/D.VA" threads means is people are playing the game. Period.
Trying to constantly appease fans with balance updates killed The Division.
Say what you will about the game's launch, but it was, if nothing else, fairly well-balanced in the DZ. Then a few players complained about a few issues. Then more did.
And every time that people cried out for fixes Massive answered, they "fixed" it. Now we have a Frankenstein's Monster of a game where there is no real balance anymore because things just kept getting nerfed until nothing felt satisfying and then the things that were already too powerful got buffed because why the fuck not.
The singleplayer is still fun and the world is still insanely detailed and beautiful, but fuck, the multiplayer and loot system was ruined by the players.
>>339787037
And here we see the guy who thinks grabbing blocks is "Cheap"
The game is designed around letting you swap characters. Hell, you get more post-match XP that way.
>>339786824
Overwatch is for the most part, balanced. They did a solid job. There are a few outliers though, and then there is one outlier even among those. That is McCree. He counters every hero in the game except potentially Widowmaker, and she needs to be toned down a bit as well.
McCree's problem is he's good at everything, and flashbang being designed to allow him to counter agile heroes like Tracer and Genji combined with his fan and roll reload basically allows him to counter everything. If you get flashbanged, you're dead. If you fight him at mid to long range and you've got similar aim, he's going to outdamage you. He's broken.
Widowmaker is too good in skilled hands, and one shot body shots should never be allowed. I don't even think Tracer should be allowed to be one shot bodyshot. Zenyatta certainly shouldn't, with no movement abilities and a pretty large hitbox.
D.Va could use a rework of her critbox. Much smaller, moved to the back, or removed. Simple.
Everything else? I can pretty much live with. Everything kind of slots into place once you fix what I mentioned above.
>>339786824
Did you really think these fucking casual shitters would allow OW to be a decent game before crying for changes because they suck at video games?
Why do you think everyone said OW was going to suck? The game itself is actually incredibly interesting. But Blizzard's fanbase, and the people they marketed to, are people who are not only absolute dogshit at reaction time and adaptive learning, but are complete and utterly fucking retarded.
OW is a shit game because of the people that play it. That's how it was always going to be.
>>339786824
>An example of a community that has perfected this is the SSBM community. Some would argue there's a tier list in melee yet any of the viable characters can win against one another at ALL levels of play
Melee is a fucking disaster. Half of the cast is unplayable at high levels, and while the other half can win, the meta is still dominated by the same few characters, always has been that way, and always will. Why would you want the same for Overwatch?
>>339787141
>Didn't riot completely overhaul some old characters as well? Seems strange to mess with things already so concrete
Due to all the changes to items, masteries and other mechanics some champs become too weak to use in the current meta or sometimes riot just nerfs the shit out of them until they're unusable. Eventually riot decides that a champ is in such a bad position that they need to be reworked so they're playable without being terrible or too strong
Riot has really weird design philosophies so rather than just buff a champion they'll rework it because simply buffing it would bring back the same problems that caused them to nerf it to begin with
>>339789248
And what if you're Bowser, or Kirby, or Mewtwo? There is no adapting. The better characters adapted to Fox, but you're forgetting that half of the cast was never able to adapt.
While I think mccree does need a tweak, it does worry me that people call for nerfs right off the bat. After McCree, they will just cry about someone else until everyone is nerfed, then still cry
The only think I would do is maybe increase his damage dropped so he can't snipe and increase the cooldown of flashbang a couple seconds
>>339796701
>After McCree, they will just cry about someone else until everyone is nerfed, then still cry
This. They'll destroy the game and turn it into an unfun mess.
>>339786824
>defending any mechanic that steals player agency
I will never understand you retards.
>>339789248
there's no adapting to mccree, the highest health character in the game goes down to a flashbang fan the hammer x2 combo and for a large number of characters there's literally no counter to it
The only changes I want are to mccree (who is being fixed) and mei. Meis armor lock is annoying as fuck and I think that her weapon should be more of a beam than a fire hose
>>339786824
SSBM is maybe the worst example you could have given.
At the highest level of play (the level by which the game should be balanced), only a handful of characters can succeed: Fox, Falco, Peach, Marth, Sheik, and Jigglypuff (in optimal hands) are clearly a massive step above the rest of the roster. Samus has been doing decently lately and Axe has always done work with Pikachu, but neither have very significant results. Ice Climbers are probably just below the top 6 in that they aren't as good but have a gimmicky infinite that can catch people. But again, they still don't even have close to the same results.
You know what's inevitable when you have an imbalanced game over a long period of time? Stagnation. That's what's happened to Melee.
>>339790257
Smash with items is even more imbalanced than smash without items
You think slow characters like bowser get shit on hard now? Imagine bowser players dealing with characters who can run to an item twice as fast as they can
Adapting to items would be like adapting to the default 2 minute timer, it's completely unfavorable for a large part of the cast and it's not fun to watch
>>339798791
>You know what's inevitable when you have an imbalanced game over a long period of time? Stagnation. That's what's happened to Melee.
Except that's wrong. Melee is 15 years old and is still growing.
>>339793036
He called you a retard because Battlefield is played more often when 2 Foxes are involved.
>>339786824
You are right and I agree. People that scream "buff this, nerf that" are just whiny babies. I hooe Blizzard won't listen to every single player and make a distinction.
Besides, the SSBM example is not exactly good but I get your point.
>>339799053
It's growing in that people are finding more tech, but it's absolutely stagnant in its character choices.
Hell, the same six guys win every tournament they care to attend.
>>339797696
Because getting two shot with 800 health is fun
We're not trying to make a perfectly balanced game, we're trying to make a game that feels balanced to casuals. This means that if a ton of people are complaining, there's a problem.
>>339799053
>still growing
>>339797696
McCree, in terms of Smash, is pre-patch Diddy in Smash 4 or Meta Knight in Brawl.
He is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with. His overpoweredness was an obvious mistake.
>>339789248
Flashbang and you are dead. There is nothing you can do. He also kill tanks like nothing.
I was using this fucker today and holly shit, I see why people hate him, that fucking combo is too good.
>>339799489
can literally mash E with reaper and get away if you're that much of a shitter.
>>339789248
You can't adapt to Fox if you aren't top tier, and even if you are top tier, you can still die to a shine spike from 0%.
how does one adapt to a mccree on defense, especially in a close quarters map like route 66's final point? who do you switch to counter him?
>>339787037
Who said anything about switching? I main Pharah and if a Bastion or Widowmaker gets me once or twice in the air I don't switch, I remember were that character is and stay nice and low and to the sides. You just suck at games, like most of the fucks who have been complaining.
>>339795827
>Hell, you get more post-match XP that way.
Explain
>>339799348
>We
So you openly admit you're a shill?
>>339786824
>LoL
No one gives a shit
>SC2
Only decently respectable thing you got going for you
>CSGO
Pros are laughing at you btw.
fuck off.
>>339799053
Even if it is growing, there's still a ton of characters that are useless. I want characters like D.Va and Zenyatta to be useful, at some point.
>>339800834
D.Va is a fantastic character. I knock people off cliffs, kill snipers, and keep reinforcements off of the point. Then when my team has whittled the enemy down, I flank from behind and tear through them.
And if her mech blows up, she gets a ridiculous fucking sniping pistol that I can spam from halfway across the map and kill people.
I mean, yeah, I still die to Mcree but I just avoid close quarters or, if I see him, I fly somewhere he can't go.
