Anyone bored enough to discuss what is P2W ?
hardmode: don't state if you're a free player or a paying one.
Western p2w > Eastern p2w >>>>>>>>>>>> KOREAN p2w
>>339762979
mobile p2w should be in their own category.
>>339762751
I just find them annoying.
They are well designed to get you to pay but i am too old to fall for that shit its the kids that are gonna make this garbage the norm.
Just to get it started:
No, your game is not "pay to save time, you can have anything by grinding" - yeah sure, but what if you needed more than a lifetime of grind to get one [piece of equip/character/move/card...]? It'd mean one would never catch up with someone who bought everything at once, and the winning percentage would be heavily skewed.
I don't have a problem when it's in a mobile game, as their stores are built around nickling and diming children and adults without self control. However if anything even close to this type of shit comes to consoles or PC I will be furious.
> New game released
> Buy all the XP potions/scrolls
> Be the first to reach cap level
> Farm and sell stuff nobody has access to yet
> Go to forums
> "It's pay for convenience, you can buy everything for in-game currency !"
>>339763718
If you are anything but the first panel,I strongly disagree with you.
>>339764217
I'm not sure what I expected posting on /v/. I doubt anyone will defend P2W games in general. They'll probalby defend the ones that tricked them into paying, but that's it.
>>339764217
>enjoying the grind
Hah 2nd panel is the best
>>339764660
> Hah, I'm a master at strategy, in this chess game, I bought 2 additional queens and a "revive the king" potion. People who have been studying for years are so bad, it's ridiculous.
>>339764660
>implying there should be a grind
The attitude depicted in the second panel is a very dangerous one. The more you tolerate giving real money for convenience in games, the more it intices businesses jewing you for it.
I remember spending every cent I earned from scrubbing the cafeteria floor after school on temporary cosmetic items in maplestory the moment thr cash shop was up in NA. I was one of the first cat suit fags and everything.
I wish someone had ended my life right then.
>>339762751
Pay to win or not, I avoid f2p games because I really don't like the business model. The only one I've played recently was Dirty Bomb but I'd enjoy it more if it was a game where you pay 20€ and get all the characters from the get-go. It makes me sad when I see games like Warframe, there's so much potential in the gameplay but it's just an endless grind to get people to pay up.
>>339764924
wow wow wow, at first I thought you were cool man ! How are you supposed to get better at quake or starcraft if you haven't been training the same maps and strategies over and over again?
>>339764924
I see it more as a model like Smite where you can buy the entire game for a flat fee instead of grinding everything
I hate grinds, main reason I play Dota 2 instead
If you can buy yourself a clear advantage over another player with no other input besides your wallet, I think that's P2W. For the most part I'm fine with stuff like buying an XP booster since you still have to play for it to be any good.
>>339765146
Would you say you grind dota 2 ? Even if there were no in-game rewards, I'd call it a grind to get anywhere in the skill department
>>339762751
golly gee, lets release a shooter for $60, and then add a gun as part of the dlc that is literally OP as fuck
oh, in no way is that pay to win.
>>339765361
So if I pay for 2 daily hours of coaching from the best players in the world, and get a clear advantage over that other guy who plays alone and learns slowly and unefficiently, how'd you define that?
>>339762751
>Anyone bored enough to discuss what is P2W ?
If you look in the dictionary under P2W, you'll find the related pic and associated game.Cyberstep is the worst pay-to-win game company in history. Nothing can surpass their level of shittiness
>>339765497
>I'd call it a grind to get anywhere in the skill department
That's called a game with a high skill ceiling.I haven't played Dota 2, I don't know if this is true for that game.
The reason why fighting games are so fun is because the practice you put into playing is reflected by how good you are.
Grinding to me is more of gaining xp for 10 hours to use a skill. Practicing and learning a character for 10 hours to get to a higher league is infinitely more satisfying.
>>339765697
you become better at the game yourself, not through in-game advantages
>>339765784
>in-game advantages
I think you mean monetary in-game advantages.
>>339765497
Playin to git gud isnt a grind, thats normally playing the game.
I dont even think you get items for leveling up now
>>339765697
If you could pick up a game and immediately play on the same level as pro players, the game has about as much depth as Mario Party.
The reason games like CS, Quake, SF, and whatever the fuck else has a pro scene are so fun is because everyone's skill ceiling is different.
If two people practice for 200 hours, nothing says they will be at the same skill level at all. If two people dump 200 hours into a P2W game, most of the time they're extremely similar in progress.
>inb4 those games have no high-skill ceilings
Give me some examples of ones that do then fag.
>>339765697
Well that's a little different than something like double XP. With double XP you still have to play, but you can get unlocks for leveling up earlier. On the other hand, the player that reaches those levels without an xp booster has more actual experience with the game and may be better as a result. What you said would be like buying a special tutorial that goes over all the little extra mechanics and provides practice scenarios to hone those skills, which as far as I know doesn't exist in any game for a price.
>>339766140
Shit that reminds me of this game heroes and generals
Me and my friends got into a huge fight due to that game. I used a bunch of grenades only to find out you have to buy grenades after you use them. I bitched about this and my friends told me its a skill not to use grenades and that the game isnt P2W
They played the game 100 more hrs only to get completly fucked by people with tanks
>>339765740
OP should have added "god mode: don't quote games"
>>339765761
I used to play wc3dota. The number of characters along with the number of possible combinations of said characters make the beginning of the learning curve quite hard. If you start early, you'd have to learn X characters, and then there'd be a new one every T unit of time. If you start playing the game when there are 5X characters, you'd have a much harder time.
1vs1 games like fighting and RTS are definetely more satisfying to get better at, on this we can agree
>>339766314
You've never seen those adds that claim to sell "the ultimate guide for that one MMO" ?
>>339766140
seem to have misunderstood me. What I was saying is: is it P2W if I hire a professional coach that would bring my level close to the "skill ceiling" 10 times as fast as if I had to figure everything on my own ?
>>339762751
hearthstone is a weird example of P2W.
>blow $60.00 USD on expansions
>verb $200.00 on packs
>create one, maybe two complete netdecks
after smashing your way up the ladder for an hour you'll hit old free players and other pay to win players and have the same 50% win rate as a free to play player
>>339766737
What the fuck is hiring a coach going to do for you that can't be done by googling an explanation of the mechanics? Professional players don't have coaches to teach them the game, they have coaches to research the opposition.
>>339766140
btw, completely agree with your list of games. They are the ones I quote aswell, however, I always add starcraft. I guess too many people consider it "gook click"... You probably have to try to play it with a competitive mindset to understand that it has nothing to do with "whoever clicks faster wins", just the same that the best quake player is not the one with the highest accuracy rating.
>>339766737
you literally just build an archmage, one barracks, spam footmen, and then two spell barracks and spam sorceresses, there you win every game
>>339767093
You sound a bit agressive there friend, I'll try and answer as calmly as possible, but remember that "responding to tone" is a thing and you might get the discussion in a wrong direction.
What can't be done by googling is someone pointing out your specific mistakes, and if you don't recognize them as mistakes because you lack the knowledge and experience, they will explain it.
>>339767093
becoming a professional requires having other professionals to scrim with usually, in dota 2 there were chinese teams that sabotaged certain teams by shutting them out of all scrimmage circles
>>339767256
warcraft 3 had a lot of fame because it was a casualized RTS. Slow movement, little to no macro, everything revolved around micro. No surprise it gave birth to "micro simulator" aka dota. I hope I don't have to explain further why the most popular games are what they are.
>>339762751
An ostensibly free game wherein premium boosts are substantial enough that free players cannot expect to beat paying players in a competitive setting or beat the game in a reasonable timeframe.
>>339767638
Pretty good attempt. For the sake of the argument: it was all good until
>in a reasonable timeframe.
which is obviously too subjective. When you're 85, the reasonable timeframe just isn't the same
also, the game doesn't even have to be free
>>339764660
Nah, panel 2 makes the mistake of thinking that a game should have a 'grind' that you would want to skip if you have the money. When companies do this, they're intentionally adding shit that they can expect people to not enjoy (if not in principle, then in fact). They're holding the real game hostage behind a pay/grind wall.
>>339767371
>What can't be done by googling is someone pointing out your specific mistakes
I don't agree with that in the slightest. I can't think of any example where a decent explanation won't allow you to recognize it as a mistake.
>>339763718
Far right is basically baby boomers in relation to everything else.
>>339768389
You are not going to google to get
>a decent explanation that allow you to recognize it as a mistake
if you are thinking that your play was perfect, and if only the best players may be able to figure out the counterplay, they'd be the only ones able to explain that to you. Moreover, professional gamers who make a living out of their tournament gains wouldn't want to share their secrets unless it's a paid lesson.
If a game is free to play, micro-transactions for cosmetics is absolutely fine, even encouraged as a way to support the company providing a service for free, and micro-transactions for grind-able game changing gear/characters can be okay, depending on how "expensive" it rates your time playing the game and how much of an advantage you get. If, for example, all drop-able/unlock-able gear is strictly a side grade or worse, or if grinding for everything is on the magnitude of hours instead of days, it is in my opinion okay. However, if unlock-able stuff is obviously superior to stock characters/equipment, or if you need to grind for several hundred hours to get everything you need, then in my opinion that game is not worth playing.
However, if a game is buy to play, micro-transactions are kind of scummy, even for cosmetic stuff. You should be able to unlock new outfits and skins just by playing the game when you've already given the dev money. This doesn't make the game not worth playing, but it could be an indication that the game is in a decline.
However, paying for stuff that affects the game, especially in multiplayer games, when you've already payed a set price for the game is unforgivable and is a red flag declaring that the game is trash and should be avoided.
F2P games with a great micro-transactional model: Dota2
F2P games with scummy micro-transactions: LoL
F2P games that aren't worth playing: korean mmos, phone games and the like.
B2P games with great micro-transactions: Witcher 3, with free cosmetic dlc and feature length expansions.
B2P with scummy micro-transactions but still playable: SFV
B2P games that aren't worth playing: NBA 2k16(iirc its a full price AAA game with purcahseable points to level up your basketball player, which can be used online, though all of my experience with it comes from occasionally seeing my roommate play it so I might be dead wrong)
>>339768967
Consider this: there are times, admittedly rare, when top player surprise the audience, the commentators, their opponent, and even their grandmaster mates with strategies and counters nobody had ever seen, thought of, or managed to execute.
Meta-games change. To be the best at all times, you need to adapt to those novelty. If you're a midlevel player, you may be playing the old meta where a particular way used to be optimal but isn't anymore.
>>339769372
I haven't had time to get interested in SFV, what kind of micro transactions are there, and which ones are scummy?
>>339769372
>LoL has a scummy micro-transaction model
...how? It's not as great as Dota's, of course, but paying money gives you no advantage in the game, just cosmetics.
Yeah, it sucks that you have to grind champions, but that's how Riot got their playerbase to stay into it. Plus buying champions with real money costs a fucking fortune, like $5 per champion, ON SALE, so no one does it unless they're super rich.
ah well, I'm glad my thread has had that many replies, even thou most of them were mines.
>>339770079
>paying money gives you no advantage in the game, just cosmetics.
>$5 per champion
please refer to>>339764538
>>339762751
Mostly anything that gives an advantage for paying in real cash is usually where people call pay to win, but with that not every game lets you outright pay for gives you an instant level of being better.
Usually P2W involves a scale of BS before it hits outright corrupted by it's own model, I've seen people who claim in PvE based games that skipping cool downs to build things are P2W while I've seen people claim that buying the best weapon or whatever that does better then everything else in the game is just how the game is meant to be played.
My usual problem with P2W is that instead of making it just possible to buy items/power/resources, is that it makes all the ways to get these hyper grindy to make you buy their shit instead of making a game that is more fun to play then just another version of a work simulator.
I'm usually fine with P2W type things if there is a 5-15 dollar 'unlock all shit pack' as you'd get if you normally bought a game because as long as I enjoy a game I don't mind giving money to the makers for actually useful things.
Shit like boosters that only work for a day and tick off in time when you're outside of the game can burn in hell
>>339770352
Should I get you started on DLC ?
>>339770293
but having more champions doesn't give you any inherent advantage, just more variety of characters to play. you can get like 10 champions for free by linking your amazon account and you really only need to be able to play 5 different ones at minimum. plus you get 10 champions on free rotation.
no one is making you pay for champions, and like i said, hardly anyone does it. i mean, HARDLY anyone.
>>339770738
Each champion has a winrate associated with him.
>playing anything but the best during patch X.Y.Z
>>339770079
Yeah, I might have worded that poorly. I just meant it as a level between awesome micro transactions and absolutely awful microtransactions; scummy might have been the wrong word for both LoL and SFV.
>>339769743
The game comes with 16 characters, and a dlc character is added each month. These characters are free until until they implement the money shop, but are purchasable individually or in bulk with a season pass, which also gets you premium costumes and stuff. The characters are planned to be priced at either 5-8$ (I think) or 100k in game currency, which can be acquired by winning games, completing challenges, beating survival mode and doing tutorials. I think it was estimated that over 600k fight money was acquirable without even winning matches (which gets you 50 a win) so unless you want to but every single character, every single stage, all of a characters extra colors (11 and up, the rest are available in game) and every single other thing in the shop you can theoretically get everything without paying and without excessive grind, especially if you're only interested in one or two dlc characters and dont give a shit about cosmetic stuff.
To put it in perspective, I have 170k FM by only doing R Mika's single player stuff and that was after buying her story mode costume, her player card design, and all of her extra colors. I believe that buying a character will also allow you to generate some fight money by doing their single player content too. It's not a saintly practice but its much better than some other models.
>>339770925
>winrates
that only matters if you're autistic about your rank, which you shouldn't be, because your ranking means jack shit if you're not diamond 1 or higher, which is 0.01% of the player base.
if you just want to have fun, you don't need to play what's "meta".
>>339762751
>>339762751
>there are people who think a game that allows cheating is somehow not what it sounds like if it costs money
we deserve everything we have right now
>>339762751
Not p2w: Skins/Vanity
p2w: everything else
>>339771038
"it's not pay to win because wins don't matter, proof is : if you want to win you're autistic"
>>339771013
*but will be purchasable
>>339771335Only autistic people genuinely enjoy games.
>>339770738
>HARDLY anyone.
Do you really believe what you write? Many people can't be bothered to farm anything and just pay straight up. Champions accounts for a sizeable share of Riot's revenues.
If "HARDLY" anyone would buy them, the business model would have been changed anyway and champions would be free while cosmetic prices would have been increased.
You have no idea how casual/lazy players are nowadays. That's how you see some of them spending $100's on MMO gold which typically can be farmed in few hours if you're not a complete retard.
>>339771335
you're retarded. there are dedicated players in high ranks who play absolute GARBAGE champions like yorick and mordekaiser, playing champions based on their winrates is stupid as shit, the best way to win and climb is to play what you're experienced with.
yes, some champions are stronger than others in different metas, but having "stronger" champions (which usually require experience to play well) doesn't make you win the game, skill and knowledge does.
>>339769372
So does that make FFXIV one of the worse possible?
>Buy to Play
>Subscription
>Cash Shop for exclusive items
>pay service to do things like change your name
Honnestly, I like your way of thinking, but I can't let you be wrong either.
It's about what you consider cheating. Discussing definitions isn't the most interesting thing to do, but the short version would be "not following rules". Thing is, the people who make the game also make the rules. I didn't think I could be caught defending P2W, but it's de facto not cheating
>>339771578
>If "HARDLY" anyone would buy them, the business model would have been changed anyway and champions would be free while cosmetic prices would have been increased.
you've just proved you know nothing about the business model. it's optimized to make the maximum amount of money off people dumb enough to pay money for champions, and the main point of champions not being free at the start is because Riot wants to enforce a TIME COST that restricts new and inexperienced players from being able to play at a high level until they've grinded for a while. it also keeps people playing the game, just like MMOs, if you force grinding on them for in game items, and most multiplayer online games do this.
>>339771775
It is one of the worse because most of their money is coming from JP players and XIV has no competition there. No WoW in Japan, all other similar "AAA" MMO which got localized there failed completely.
PSO2 is still doing ok-ish but the style is completely different. So yes they can just charge everywhere. People believing that they keep the subscription because they "care" and don't want to be P2W are just retarded.
When you look at SQEX mobage in Japan, they all have awful business models, crippled with gacha and crap drop rates.
>>339771454
I can tell where this is coming from. Truth is, I've always hated the unlockables system, and putting a price on it is even dirtier. I do know how satisfying it is to finally get everything unlocked, but it's more of an OCD feeling than anything else. But yeah, I guess there were people who'd ask their friend to unlock the shit for them, so they probably got tired and decided to make a buck out of it ?
>>339765697
All the coaches, studying, and tutorials in the world aren't going to make you good at a fighting. Someone else can't make you good at the game, that has to happen on your own. You think knowing frame data and match ups is going to increase your reaction time, execution, and split second decision making? I don't know where you're pulling these stupid questions, it just doesn't apply the same way at all. Sounds like drug addled mental gymnastics.
>>339771651
Well, I'm definetely too retarded to be willing to continue arguing with you. When you're finished climbing with your "best way", come back and tell me that at the highest level of play, you're not doing everything to get even 1% better chances of winning.
>>339772381
I was actually replying to myself. I typed out that they are purchasable instead of going to be purchasable. At the moment they're free.
In my opinion this game has a much better dlc character model than four, where you needed to buy new versions of the game to play the new characters, even if you only wanted to play one or two of the bundle, and all costumes (iirc, I didn't play the game a great deal later in its life) were only accessible with real money. At least in five you can buy the characters you want with grind money and you can get story costumes with fight money too.
>>339773217
you probably don't even play ranked, but if you did, i'd bet my bottom dollar that you're stuck in silver or something. i'm diamond 5, which i managed by playing less than 15 champions.
but stay mad.
>>339773138
You're talking about fighting games in specific, when I was talking in more general terms. Of course, some games have less theory than others.
However, if you think two persons with approx the same potential will learn at the same speed, given that one is being coached by a veteran and the other is on his own, I'd say you're deeply mistaken.
>>339762751
Videogames are fun to different people for different reasons. Many people like the feeling of competing against other players, this is why multiplayer games are popular. Developers try to make these games balanced in the spirit of that competition.
Pay2Win is when a developer gives players the capacity to affect that balance through micro (or macro) transactions, effectively encouraging class-warfare. These transactions can severely upset a community and in extreme cases kill off the playerbase entirely (see Tribes: Ascend). Some games can both encourage Pay2Win and avoid upsetting a community though (see Star Citizen) which makes these influences somewhat benign.
>>339762751
I think a better topic would be whether or not Co-op/Single Player games can be P2W if such elements exist.
>>339773618
No mate, I actually don't play LoL at all and never did. How does it feel to lose an argument against someone who doesn't even play so bad, that you'd have to resort to
> you're autistic.
> you're retarded.
> you're stuck in silver or something.
...
>but stay mad.
>>339774398
Woah, my mistake man, you are obviously ~~too cool~~ for me to possibly win an argument against when you dodged all my points and resorted to meme arrows and "i'm done ur retarded lol"
>>339774398
Can someone else feed the troll for just a minute? I will be back real soon, just explain him what are the uses of greentext, that'll keep him reactive
>>339767638
no, that is wrong and has never been the case
P2W is exchanging real world money for *any* statistical or temporal advantage, regardless of degree. whether or not free players can overcome that advantage is irrelevant - the paying player still has an advantage, and the game is still therefore P2W.
you can argue that there are degrees of P2W, and that certain P2W implementations are beneficial to a game. again, irrelevant. these games are still P2W.
>>339770079
New champions set the tempo of the selection metagame. Champs that are OP on release are pretty much mandatory. This was a bigger problem three years ago then it is today though.
>>339774503
go play 1.e4 b6 if you think winrates don't matter.
>>339773867
I hate you for reminding me of T:A
After killing Global Agenda with shit updates, free to play, abandoning it for T:A and then using shit pr and marketing strategies (along with horrible/unbalanced updates made only to cash in from retards paying for "that" new op gun only to nerf it a week later) plus terrible unlock system literally frozen behind a pay wall (or hundreds of hours) then abandoning it in favor for another f2p moba game there are no excuses for the devs.
Hirez is dead to me and anyone giving them money is a complete retard and deserves to be deported in Siberia.
>>339775192
Again just parroting "muh winrates" when you don't have anything else to say. I'm not responding anymore.
>>339774235
Only if there's an online leaderboard for them.
>>339775241
I feel you senpai. It hurts to see people support them.
>>339770079
>>LoL has a scummy micro-transaction model
>...how? It's not as great as Dota's, of course, but paying money gives you no advantage in the game, just cosmetics.
that is objectively wrong. you can buy champions that free players have to grind. you can also buy IP boosts to get runes faster.both of these are paying real money for temporal advantages - pay-to-not-grind, which is still P2W.
>>339774503
he resorted to "meme arrows",as you call them, after you lost the argument.
>>339775463
>Well, I'm definetely too retarded to be willing to continue arguing with you. When you're finished climbing with your "best way", come back and tell me that at the highest level of play, you're not doing everything to get even 1% better chances of winning.
I don't know how this could be construed as "winning the argument"
>>339762751
Fuck you, I just lost the game.
Star trek online might seem p2w from the outside or to players on the newer end as it seems like you have to grind for a long time to get stuff. But after 4 years it is a very different experience, in fact it is almost like i'm playing a very different game to the newer players.
I never spent a penny, have everything I want and could get almost anything very easily.
Playing about 30minutes a day for 1 month I could buy any $60~ 3 ship bundle.
It is trivially easy to get anything in the game(other than time limited event ships that cannot be paid for anyway).
For new player it is not easy purely because the new player doesn't know the easiest way to get stuff. I've never seen a game that is so different from new->vet, it is just not the same game, and i understand why a new player might think that it is a shit game, because they simply are not on the same level, not in 'power' but in knowing what the actual game is, at its highest levels it has nothing to do with star trek at all, it is a highly complex mathematical puzzle game at the 'elite' level and no amount of money is going to help you (unless you paid someone in the dps league top 100~ to teach you how to play).
>>339774398
>>339774767
I'm back and so happy, you kept him well fed!
>>339775540
If someone has the tier list of arguments laying around, it'd be much faster.
When it comes down to insults ("You're retarded."), the lowest form of ad hominem, the arguing is over.
>>339775328
In a thread about pay-to-win, the rate at which one does win is pretty much the most objective data one could look at.
>>339776281
Alright, have fun believing that I guess, even thought it's patently false.
>>339762751
fuck i cant believe i lost, after all these years of winning i fucking lost again
>>339763112
Mobile games shouldn't even be categorized as vidya.
the samefagging in here is disgusting
>>339776580
is there an argument in this post ?
>>339773618
or in this one?
>>339771651
In this one I can tell anecdotic evidence of existence of "high ranks who play garbage champions". Considering I don't play LoL, I'm assuming that if you were talking about about the highest level of play, you'd have said highest. The ranking and matchmaking in well-made competitive games tend to keep the winrate of each player (not talking about champions here) at around 50%, so the existence of the phenomenon you're talking about doesn't disprove anything, only that there are people who can lose to garbage champions. Also, you started with "you're retarded".
>>339771038
In this post you went with "winrates only matters if you're autistic". Considering I introduced winrates to the discussion, I was thinking they do matter. So you were calling me "autistic about my rank" even though I don't actually play this particular game.
I didn't think the "ranking means shit" was worth addressing either. I don't play nor follow the LoL esport scene, but I really doubt a team of diamond ever won a major tournament.
>>339777089
>>339775626
Well I'm sorry, you probably have guessed that it wasn't even my intention.
Proof is, I didn't even lose the game until you did.
>>339777459
meh, if you read the thread, you know I admitted it quite early.
>The ranking and matchmaking in well-made competitive games tend to keep the winrate of each player (not talking about champions here) at around 50%, so the existence of the phenomenon you're talking about doesn't disprove anything, only that there are people who can lose to garbage champions
See, this is the kind of shit that makes me not want to respond to this shit, because you honestly buy into the meme of "forced 50". There are 10 champions in every game. The game's outcome isn't dependent on one of them. And, yes, I did mean "highest." It's why I brought it up. There is someone in challenger who has ONLY played Kha'Zix over 100 ranked games. League's matchmaking system is shit, but not because of the epic "forced 50" meme that dotards love, but because of dynamic queue (party MMR and solo queue merged) fucking up high elo. When I say high elo, I mean Diamond 1+. And yes, Diamond players have won tournaments.
>In this post you went with "winrates only matters if you're autistic". Considering I introduced winrates to the discussion, I was thinking they do matter. So you were calling me "autistic about my rank" even though I don't actually play this particular game.
I didn't think the "ranking means shit" was worth addressing either. I don't play nor follow the LoL esport scene, but I really doubt a team of diamond ever won a major tournament.
Oh okay, so you don't actually play the game, you just armchair analyze it and think you understand how the game works and why champions have certain winrates. The whole shit about ranking is irrelevant since I didn't know whether or not you played the game at that point. But, since you don't, I can safely say you're either euphoric or a troll.
>>339778381
Just for the record, I don't play dota 2 either. The "forced 50" is simply a matter of how the ranking system works. If you beat regularily a person, he should be lower than you, and you should stop playing him at some point to face stronger opponents. If your skill levels are similar, your rankings should reflect that, and you'll probably win around 50% of the games against them.
I absolutely agree that the ELO system wasn't designed to rank single players in team games though. That's why it works much better in starcraft 1v1 (which is a game I do play, so if you want to insult the players of a game, go for that one).
I know that some korean starcraft teams have started their own rather successful LoL sections. Thinking about SKT here. Are they in diamond league? Just for comparison, in starcraft, there are 2 leagues above diamond: masters and grandmasters. I don't think even masters perform good at major tournaments there.
Can you please try and answer with more subtle baits than
>this is the kind of shit that makes me not want to respond to this shit
?
>>339778381
>>339777704
>>339779256
Just a note: keyword being "MAJOR" tournament.
>>339779256
>If you beat regularily a person, he should be lower than you, and you should stop playing him at some point to face stronger opponents. If your skill levels are similar, your rankings should reflect that, and you'll probably win around 50% of the games against them.
>I absolutely agree that the ELO system wasn't designed to rank single players in team games though.
Then we agree on that point..? You will rarely face the same player in multiple games if you climb, and 2 successive games having the exact same team is near impossible.
>Thinking about SKT here. Are they in diamond league? Just for comparison, in starcraft, there are 2 leagues above diamond: masters and grandmasters. I don't think even masters perform good at major tournaments there.
Koreans are soulless when it comes to their esports, but that's beside the point. Yes, the best teams in the world are not Diamond, but based on your definition of "major tournament", yes, teams with Diamond players have won tournaments.
I don't even think this is relevant to the argument, though, it doesn't really have anything to do with winrates and p2w whether or not Diamond players can win tournaments. I've already established that One Trick Ponies ("OTPs") are prevalent in high elo (yes, this includes Challenger and Masters, they are prevalent even there). Ask any professional LoL player if "playing one champion can get you to high elo", they will INVARIABLY say yes, as long as you're good at that champion.
>World of tanks/ war thunder
The only game where free players and paying players can coexist is DDO(dungeons and dragons online)
>>339779864
We agree on the fact that the ELO ranking system wasn't designed for team games. We don't agree on the relevance of winrates. I'm differentiating the winrate of players and the winrate of champions.
What we seem to disagree with, is what is "winning". You seem to consider that it means being in high ranks. I consider it to mean "being the top".
Considering your last sentence, I'd even go and say that the players who play all the champions equally probably have more trouble to reach high ELO.
In starcraft, it's possible - it has been proven times and times again - to reach grandmaster with only cannon rushes. By doing only this strategy, the player learns aspects of it that a player who perform it only rarely, and defends it only sometimes may not have foreseen. But such a one trick poney as you call them will not win any major tournaments. Even if on the ladder, he may climb in the top 100, he will not reach the top 16. The top 16 are players that the underdogs must study and prepare against; meanwhile, the top just brings their standart A-game.
>>339781159
gonna need another short break; I think it's only you and me left in the thread, so keep it alive if you're up for a couple more words with such a retard as me !
>>339781159
>We agree on the fact that the ELO ranking system wasn't designed for team games. We don't agree on the relevance of winrates. I'm differentiating the winrate of players and the winrate of champions. What we seem to disagree with, is what is "winning". You seem to consider that it means being in high ranks. I consider it to mean "being the top".
Correct
>Considering your last sentence, I'd even go and say that the players who play all the champions equally probably have more trouble to reach high ELO.
Yes, that's what I'm saying, and it's been proven true that smaller champion pools = high winrates. It doesn't mean you have to play ONLY 1 champion, but playing less than 10 can get you to high elo with little effort as long as you're good at them, regardless of whether or not they're meta.
But I guess I'm still equating "being high elo" with "winning" which is why I'm saying League is not p2w, just p2grindless. Yes, if you want to reach the absolute top (800+ LP Challenger), you need to have an extensive knowledge of the game and versatility.
But, people who reach the top 50 or so players on the server (League's playerbase is much higher so top 50 is pretty much equal to top 15 Starcraft in terms of proportion to playerbase) are almost ALWAYS seasoned veterans who have been playing the game for 4+ years and already have all of the content unlocked without having to spend a dime on anything but cosmetics. Also, these players in the top 50 of challenger are about 60% signed to pro teams already, so it's literally their job to play the game all day and grinding solo queue is considered their "free time".
So I don't think it's accurate to equate "Top 100 players" with "Winning" or even "Winning international/major tournaments" because the players/teams that achieve these will almost always have spent 500 or more hours on the game each (even more, I'd argue, in League's case), which is already enough to unlock most of the content in League.
>>339782196
>t 500 or more hours on the game each (even more, I'd argue, in League's case), which is already enough to unlock most of the content in League.
fuck off
>>339782196
back, that "fuck off" wasn't me.
My point is, obviously practice, knowledge, experience, skill etc will outshine the slight shift in balance of the champions.
However, when at the highest level of play - precisely in the case of pro players with a salary, good results are what matters. If they have the possibility to get an extra % of winning chance before the game even starts (by training and picking the champions with the highest winrates), even without knowing the game, I'm convinced they will do exactly that.
>>339782709
If we consider on the contrary the lowest end of the ladder, I dont think I'd be wrong to assume that some heroes have a much easier learning curve. Buying such a hero and sticking with him until you know the game better will probably net you a better rank than playing the 10 rotating free ones.
>>339782709
>However, when at the highest level of play - precisely in the case of pro players with a salary, good results are what matters. If they have the possibility to get an extra % of winning chance before the game even starts (by training and picking the champions with the highest winrates), even without knowing the game, I'm convinced they will do exactly that.
Then you'd be right, but that's not indicative of the game being pay2win, because as I said already, almost all professional players, and CERTAINLY all professional players on good teams have invested enough time into League to unlock all champions.
And not only that, for tournaments, Riot uses something called "tournament realm" which basically means that whenever pro teams play each other, they play on a LAN server where every player has everything unlocked. No money spent.
>>339782249
I guess I should have specified the average pro player's time spent on LoL, it's easily more than 2000 hours.
>>339782975
You'd be right about that, too. However! Riot knows that too, and they deliberately make the easiest champions very cheap. In fact, 10 of the easiest champions in the game are available completely free if you link your Amazon account to your League account.
>mfw spend nearly $200 each on 3 mobile games
>mfw still bad at them
>>339783239
>Riot uses something called "tournament realm" which basically means that whenever pro teams play each other, they play on a LAN server where every player has everything unlocked. No money spent.
Well this I didn't know, that's pretty nice. I guess the regular lambda player doesn't have access to such a realm where he would be able to test and train anything he wanted, without spending money ?
It would feel rather paradoxal to go through the trouble of making a server where everything is provided "for free" ONLY for those who already have everything anyway.
>>339783686
Yes, regular players can play on tournament realm, but only for tournaments, as per the name.
>>339783785
A shame, so no testing and training without buying.
Well, I think I don't have anything to add.
I don't think LoL is P2W. I initially merely reacted to "only cosmetics" ... "5$ per champion".
The same way I don't think Path of Exile is P2W, it's an excellent F2P with a succesful business plan. They too have "only cosmetic", with the only one thing changing the gameplay being "stash tabs". After a while, you realize that having a ton of stash tabs makes you able to store and sell so much more stuff, that you start to pity the pure F2P players asking for "how do you make so much currency ?!"
>>339784471
Well, actually, you can set up a tournament and gain access to tournament realm if enough people sign up for it, but no, there's no "sandbox mode" where you can test things. However, the community really wants a sandbox mode, and the devs even famously said that a sandbox mode would "make the game more toxic" because people would be expected to gb2sandbox n00b and, obviously, the community laughed at the incompetent devs
I'm glad we cleared this up, I'm sorry for attacking you earlier.
>>339784848
I'll make us even.
You're dumb.
Sorry.
>>339785039
You're forgiven, but really, it should be me apologizing.
Anyway, have a good night.
