The Deep is unrelated to the Abyss, the Deep is related to Nito.
Discuss
Can someone explain to me why Gwyndolin was around in DS3 to be consumed by Aldritvh. Is it a continuity error or am I just supposed to disregard it's being killed in 1 as non cannon. I'm sure the go to response will be "Gwynevere illusion" but I don't buy that. The only illusions we've ever seen have been dispelled with a single hit (Gwynevere, walls, etc). I don't see why that would change where it's convenient for the story.
>>338780046
>Discuss
fuck you and your shit meme game
>>338780572
Ornstein is an illusion
Gwynevere is an illusion
Normal FIrelink Shrine is an illusion
The sun is an illusion
Gwynevere is an illusion
Basically everything is an illusion
>>338780902
Great contribution anon, thanks for the bump. Always a pleasure to discuss different games with the friends on /v/. Have a great day.
>>338781116
Because it needs to be to justify the holes or because of evidence suggesting it is? Gwynevere and the sun (in DS1) are fine and confirmed, but the others?
probably true in some way, imo the deep is just the bottom of the ocean which is probably ash lake
>>338780572
Gwyndolin was an optional boss. Canonically, the chosen undead that fucked up Gwyn and linked the fire didn't step through the Darkmoon covenant fog.
>>338781334
Ornstein went to find NK
Smough was the last knight remaining in the Cathedral
Unless killing Ornstein first something prevents him from dying and he respawned and fucked off to find NK after that, but that makes even less sense.
I was never really too interested in the lore of souls, but the whole Londor thing and Yuria quest is pretty cool
Tell me more about it
I hope the DLC is Londor related
>>338780046
There is no way the Deep is not the Abyss. There are far to many similarities and no differences that can't be explained by the "narrative" written by the clergy.
Deep can turn people into monsters.
Abyss can turn people into monsters.
Deep is a source of dark magic.
Abyss is a source of dark magic.
The human dreg in Ds3 lookslike humanity sprites and supposed comes from within the human soul - just like humanity sprite.
>>338781521
And what about firelink being an illusion?
>>338781948
>it's similar therefore it is the same
That's not how DS works
>>338781935
As far as I can tell Londor is a land of hollows and largely controlled by the Sable Church. There's some sort of connection to Frampt in there and an intention to take back the control of the universe's order (the fire linking cycle) from the gods and place it in the hands of mankind.
It was a good addition, about the only unique lore asset in the game.
>>338782175
>unique
Londor is New Londo, or a land founded by people from New London. When you kill Yuria she mentions Kaathe.
>>338782145
We've had two games with absolutely no mention of the Deep and Dark Souls 3 never mentions the abyss other than things related to the Undead Legion.
You expect me to believe some brand new thing suddenly exists in a world of infinite cycles of ages of fire and ages of dark that just repeat themselves?
>>338782396
dark souls 2 was an age of deep waters, the deep is part of the cycle.
>>338782550
exactly how was Ds2 an age of deep waters?
>>338780572
How many times did you come back after being killed? And you are just some stinky undead. The fuck make you think literal gods should have a harder time.
When is the DLC dropping by?
>>338781935
Londer is just new Londo is it not?
>I hope the DLC is Londor related
I was kinda thinking that Londor should be close considering it was close to anor londo and the world is sort of being pulled together.
The deep is lovecraft and the abyss is just super edgy fantasy.
They are similar but different.
>>338782672
Because those literal gods aren't linked to the bonfire or the darksign. Why would they come back?
>>338783109
You as a human just have a very small part of the dark soul. That is the dark sign. That is humanity.
They are more directly linked to an equally powerful soul.
As a relative to gwyn he is leagues above any human.
>>338782989
I find it interesting that no one can ever provide differences between the two.
When there are numerous similarities.
>>338783661
One is extra terrestial and extra dimensional the other one still comes from the earth.
>>338782618
presumably takes place on the same land as DaS and DaS3 but there's a fucking massive ocean.
no ocean in DaS, huge ocean in DaS2, smaller ocean in DaS3 and people are afraid of "deep waters"
>>338783109
New game +X, my nigga
>>338784071
ng+ is not canon
>>338783973
If all the games take place in the same land mass, the size of the ocean is simply a matter of perspective.
Dark Souls 2 clearly takes place much closer to the coast than Ds1 or 3.
You can very clearly see a massive ocean from outside Prince Lothric's room.
Not to mention that each cycle presumably lasts for several hundred years at least, possibly thousands, and has happened countless times.
Geography changes over thousands of years.
>>338783749
Exactly where is The Deep referred to as being extra terrestrial?
I think the interesting thing about the deep is the little line on the deep gem.
>There is a darkness that lies beyond ken.
Why is this even there? It's not on the Dark gem or hell no other gem has some cryptic dialogue like this in the item text. The fuck?
The Deep Ring seems to imply that the deacons just made up this bullshit and spread it. Dregs are also clearly some form of humanity. Is the deep just the abyss darkness wielded badly? dregs are considered something worthless maybe the deacons tampered with the abyss and just don't even get it. Hopefully DLC goes into the cathedral of the deep a little bit. Them and Londor are fairly interesting.
>>338784772
>Exactly where is The Deep referred to as being extra terrestrial?
I thought Aldrichs name was a huge hint. Especially his japanese one.
Everything about the deep and the way it is described screams lovecraft.
They are so similar because they are both based on the ancient human fear of the dark unknown.
The abyss comes from the idea that there is something in caves and deep underground that will kill us and the deep is the fear of the night and the dark universe.
That is why I don't mind if people call it the same thing. Because if you boil it down it comes down to the same origin.
>>338785107
Aldrich's name is a play on the word "eldritch",right? Eldritch simply means weird, out of the ordinary.
It's literally a fancy word for strange. The only connection it has with lovecraftian things is that those things are "strange" and the word is commonly used in those writings. Probably because the word is *fancy*
>>338785715
You can't deny that the word has changed to almost exclusively mean occult or lovecraftian though
>>338785107
I generally thought the deep was just a manifestation of aldrich, pontiff and mcdonnells conniving schemes
The way the cathedral of the deep is actually a way of the white covenant area, the way the archdeacon's klimt and royce stay at the cathedral, the way the deep ring and deacon robes imply that the deacons were originally entrusted to stop aldrich from fucking shit up like he did in the presumed past.
They state that they have seen the horrors of the deep and grotesqueries, but neither tending the flame or their own faith could eventually stop it's power and save them.
I take this to mean that in the past, aldrich had tons of power, and to stop him, they made him a lord of cinder and this somehow stopped his plans, as the lords of cinder eventually die and turn to ashes in their graves. Aldrich's vision of the deep is a great sea, and to form this he extracted the "human dregs" from tons of people, human dregs being the heaviest item in the body, water, to form his deep sea, a place where only the weird maggots that infest the lower trenches of the cathedral and are visible in the aldrich boss fight room can prosper.
>>338784772
>Geography changes over thousands of years.
this is exactly what I'm saying. dranglaec/majula was likely hundreds of miles above lordran.
the sea in DaS2 is also seen as a destructive force, as seen in heide as well as an avenue for travel as seen in the giant's memory.
The sea had been mastered in DaS2, yet it is feared in 3.
it's almost like the lands seen in DaS3 were all once submerged, the only true remnants of Lordran are the "festering wood" that took over Farron, Anor Londo, the remains of Izalith, and the Grand Archives.
The deep is a darkness that lies beyond human understanding, the abyss is very much understood by men, and is even known as the source of humanity, seems a lot like the ocean to me.it could be a berserk reference because in berserk the ocean has a stronger connection to the "astral world" even before the fantasia arc
>>338785715
Are you a time traveler from the 1600s? Because in the last 2 centuries eldritch pretty much is only used as a reference to lovecraft.
>>338785809
I'm not denying that. But word use in the souls games is extremely deliberate. They don't pick them willy nilly, and they will take the actual definition of that word into account.
I'd also like to point out the connection with water between The Deep, and people seem to forget, also The Abyss.
The abyssal taint is described as being wet, and tied to water. The description of Artorias's armor in Ds1 for example.
And the poison swamp area is clearly the location of ruined Oolacile.
A little to coincidental that the place we know as the birthplace of the Abyss is not sunken and flooded into a swamp in my opinion.
>>338785921
The archdeacons themselves being figureheads in the way of the white notably have different actions during the aldrich reawakening event.
Klimt is the most elusive and is said to be the most devoted to rosaria, who has very heavy implications of being related to or actually being gwynevere, this would make some sense considering his way of the white status.
Royce seems the one hoping that aldrich returns to the cathedral, whether this implies that he wants him to come back to his grave, or simply coexist as a figurehead, or feed on the watering mangrubs that have been weirdly set up and are infested by aldrich's rotting flesh already is unknown.
Mcdonnell is fully ready to abandon his covenant and go to irithyll, and generally displays the most clear sign of corruption.
I only bring sulyvahn into the equation as he is both willingly expecting of aldrich's return, having set up gwyndolin for him, but there are also implications that he altered parts of the deep braile tome, the small addition to it is specifically noted as "profane" pages, and this could give some motivation.
>>338785932
also note that the cathedral of the deep is near the ocean and has a stream bed under it.
>choosing to link the Fire willingly
>>338786260
>But word use in the souls games is extremely deliberate.
Exactly.
They named the boss Eldrich.
They did not deliberate on the old english or scottish meaning of the word
>Making contact with eldritch wisdom is a blessing, for even if it drives one mad, it allows one to serve a grander purpose, for posterity.
that is DIRECTLY from bloodborne and they use eldritch as a reference to lovecraft very clearly in that game.
You'd be crazy to suggest that between games they decided to change what the word means to them and go for the literal one this time.
>>338786602
>not being an edgelord
>>338786602
In 1, I could see why. Keep the party going.
In 2, Aldia makes a pretty compelling argument to not keep the barbecue on.
3, the barbecue is almost out of fuel, and protag is probably the shittiest fuel yet, if not the last. Just let the party end, or at least take a break.
>>338783253
Right they are, a soul that has yet to demonstrate the power of resurrection and hollowing. we can't just assume because it's powerful that it grants respawning the same the darksign does.
>>338786697
Bloodborne is a completely separate game lore wise from the souls games. A game that is right out of the box shoving lovecraftian lore right up your ass.
You can't offer that as evidence.
>>338782396
So the Deep is that sea outside Cathedral right? Or at least somewhere underwater.
What do they actually do with it?
Do they drop some hollows in there from time to time, do they just pray?
Is there any interaction between Aldrich or the Deacons and the Deep?
>>338786875
>You can't offer that as evidence.
I can offer it as evidence what eldritch means to from/miyazaki
>>338785932
Didn't fucking with Manus spawned the Abyss?
>>338786982
It's from a totally different story though and is involved in a game that is obviously trying to go all Cthulhu on us.
My point is that obviously he used the word Eldritch in that context, the entire game bleeds lovecraft.
>>338786332
>aldrich reawakening event.
What is this?
>>338787098
yes, defiling his grave specifically.
>>338787287
He probably just means Aldrich leaving his throne and going off to eat gods. You see it in the intro cinematic.
>>338787253
>the entire game bleeds lovecraft.
And everything about the deep screams lovecraft too.
I am not suggesting the games are necessary connected.
Dark Souls has a lot of concepts but is actually pretty shallow with most of them only suggesting deepness.
What evidence do you have he specifically doesn't meant the lovecraftian sense of eldritch when referencing the deep and everything around it?
>>338787353
>>338785932
So the Abyss was not always there and its defo not the source of Humanity, the Dark Soul is.
I don't think the Abyss is understood at all, only worshipped/utilized. Maybe Kaathe knows, but that sly faggot would never tell
>>338787557
humanity and the dark soul are one in the same.
the dark soul is just another lord soul that was split into many many more pieces.
the abyss always resided within manus, defiling his grave just caused it to spread.
>>338787464
>>338787287
While on this topic, when you become LoC, you're basically just a strong as fuck guy. Then, unless you're a cuckling, you link the fire and you burn up.
Shouldn't Aldrich, Yhorm, Legion and Ludleth be dead? I mean, I know they get rezzed to sit on their thrones and burn again, because some fuccboii didn't want to burn, but what's the point then? If you can just burn LoC endlessly.
Threadly reminder that Pontiff Sulyvahn was the coolest guy in Dark Souls 3
>>338786332
>Profane pages
Do you even understand the meaning of the word? Anything evil is "profane".
>>338786076
>>338785809
Most of Lovecraft's "eldritch" monstrosities weren't literal aliens you fucking idiots. Nothing makes me angrier than uneducated plebs who think "LOVECRAFT MEANS AYYLIUUMS"
>>338787472
Nothing related to The Deep ever uses the word Eldritch. The only indication of it is the play on words with Aldrich's name.
Also that anything that is remotely lovecraftian can also be related to The Abyss anyway.
I suppose my point is not that the word can't be hinting at it, but simply that it doesn't make The Deep NOT The Abyss.
On another point, The Deep hints at a great monstrosity hiding within it.
That in itself is extremely similar to Manus within The Abyss.
And along with The Deep being described as once sacred, this could be a relation between The Dark and The Abyss.
The Dark being described as calm and comforting to humanity(probably because of the presence of the dark soul within them). This could technically make it a sacred place to humans due to the nature of it and the Dark Soul.
While The Abyss, while clearly related to the dark, is more like a corruption of it.
So the "sacred place being tainted by monstrosities" can easily just be Manus getting pissed off, going nuts, spawning the Abyss, and the corrupting influence of it creating monsters out of people.
>>338787538
lost, so true
>>338788038
You are literally arguing with the voices inside your head.
Nobody said "lovecraft is just ayliums"
Are you genuinely fucking retarded?
>>338787538
I mean it also was like that before das3.
Not that anyone here remembers that. The turnover for /v/ is fast enough that most people probably don't remember das1 lore discussion.
>>338788189
But Manus is dead.
I personally think it's something related to Death, a la Nito.
Death is never really discussed, but it is a concept Nito offered part of his soul to, it's something above Gods.
>>338788438
>Nobody said "lovecraft is just ayliums"
Yes. They did.
Did you miss the part where some asshole was saying the deep was space related?
>One is extra terrestial and extra dimensional the other one still comes from the earth.
It's fucking incredible how stupid some people are.
>>338788525
it was like that to an extent with things like Old Dragonslayer but never before this game were there so many continuity errors that needed retroactive explaining with this illusion business.
>>338788642
>extra terrestial and extra dimensional
That describes lovecraft origin pretty well.
If he had just said extra terrestial then maybe you had a point. What is their origin if not both extra terrestial and extra dimensional? Enlighten us.
Also those were not the two you quoted and called idiots.
You actually are retarded. I am so sorry.
lorian and lothric had wings, discuss.
>>338788790
There is literal time travel in das1 with a million continuity errors.
Is this the dark souls 1 fanboy hate train here? I really gotten sick of these fags after das2 already. I kinda figured they would've all masturbated themselves to death with their das1 disk.
>>338788602
Also, Gwyn was basically the God of fire, light, miracles and lighting
Manus is Abyss/dark magic
Witches is Chaos/pyromancy
But what is Nito? God of Death.
But what is Death, it never comes back or is discussed.
>>338788602
Is he? We saw in Ds2 that fragments of his soul were reborn.
In addition we have to remember that anything related to The Deep could simply be part of the clergies "narrative" about it.
>>338788868
They fought off Winged Knights who came for their waifu, because Lotrhic and Lorian kept defiling
>>338788798
>Also those were not the two you quoted and called idiots.
No, the idiots I quoted were morons who can't even seperate the world "eldritch" from Lovecraftian connotations and actively defended his Japanese name as if it was an indication that the deep is some sort of lovecraftian concept.
>That describes lovecraft origin pretty well.
But Dark Souls has literally nothing to do with Lovecraft.
> What is their origin if not both extra terrestial and extra dimensional?
Dark Souls has literally nothing to do with Lovecraft
>You actually are retarded
Nah, you're the moron who can't even keep track of the context. I was dumping on people for thinking "eldritch" means "space alien lovecraft monster". How did you respond? By pointing out that their understanding of Lovecraft isn't inaccurate, despite that never being something I claimed.
>>338789008
I think that's what dark miracles that use Faith are. Grave Warden Agdayne used hexes.
>>338789108
>No, the idiots I quoted were morons who can't even seperate the world "eldritch" from Lovecraftian connotations
Google eldritch.
Everyone uses it with lovecraftian connotations nowadays.
And specifically miyazaki did in BB.
>still playing DS3
>>338789197
That doesn't change the definition of the word, and again, just because he used it to describe lovecraftian things in a game about lovecraftians things, doesn't make something in an unrelated game, a lovecraftian thing.
>>338789141
Pretty sure Hexes are what happens if Magic meets Abyss
>>338781116
How is firelink an illusion?
>>338789197
>Everyone uses it with lovecraftian connotations nowadays.
That doesn't mean the definition of the word suddenly changed anon.
>BB
Has nothing to do with Dark Souls .
>>338781521
>Unless killing Ornstein first something prevents him from dying and he respawned and fucked off to find NK after that, but that makes even less sense.
Or maybe he came back and just fucked off just like every other character in the game.
>>338789298
So a reference to the second world war can only be a reference to it if it is actually a second world war game?
If someone references nazis you would argue they don't mean the german nationalistic party but just nationalism in general?
That is your fucking argument now?
>>338789353
>>BB
>Has nothing to do with Dark Souls .
Same developer.
Same director.
>>338789307
I think there's a difference between, Dark Sorceries, Dark Pyromancies, and Dark Miracles.
The Dark miracles have Faith requirements, and given how Gravesword Dance hasn't been in any game since 1, I think some Hexes are supposed to be substitutes for those "Gravelord Miracles"
>>338789518
Nazis? Is that YOUR *fucking* argument now?
Nazis have only ever been one thing. Nazis. No one ever uses the word to mean anything but the Nazi party because that is the only thing it has ever been.
Eldritch's definition isn't actually related to Lovecraft.
>>338789298
>That doesn't change the definition of the word
Doesn't eldrich mean otherworldly?
I always though that even outside of context of lovecraft it still means otherworldly.
>>338789326
He means the DaS3 firelink, which I don't personally believe is entirely an illusion, just the standard residents aside from the Firekeeper, Ludleth and all the fuckers you bring into your service/pass by.
>>338786875
>Ocelette/Mergo similarities
>Hunter's Dream/Untended Kiln similarities
>big grey 'make no sense' monstrasities nearer the end of the game
>prevelant and 'horrific' deep sea themes in both games
I definitely don't think they're in the same universe but I don't think these theme rehashes have helped DS3's setting and narrative.
>>338789707
Nazis just comes from nationalism.
it is as inherently german as eldritch is inherently lovecraft.
how does weapon reinforced with titanite scales affect pvp matchmaking ?
>>338789743
No. It's just a fancy word for strange, uncanny, or ghostly.
>>338789601
>Same developer.
>Same director.
That's not relevant. The games are separate entities.
>>338789518
Wow. You're extra dumb.
>>338789707
Anon, let's just stop. It's a waste of time to harass the illiterate teenagers who browse here. They won't learn.
>>338789826
No, the WORD nazi comes from nationalism.
Nationalism does not mean nazi.
>>338789841
weapons that go to +5 (ie. with twinkling or scales) count as +2, +4, +6, +8, and +10 respectively
>>338780572
Optional boss, the game treats the story as if the Chosen Undead simply skipped attacking him or Gwynevere.
>>338780572
Biggest thing to learn about darksouls is that the lore is all headcannon and the people who made this game don't give a shit. Half the translations are lazy or outright wrong, they contradict eachother not intentionally but because nobody bothered to proofread it.
If you want to understand anything you pretty much have to just make up your own story and believe it.
>>338780046
why was smough knighted and the last one defending anor londo if he was an executioner when the PC killed him
>>338789806
What evidence is there to suggest that that's the case and they are illusions? Thanks.
>>338789806
So the handmaiden and Andre? But why? I was told that Andre is different somehow and I didn't understand the handmaiden at all. I know she is Sirris' grandma but thats about it.
>>338790127
nigga clearly the events of DaS1 are not canon, the Chosen Undead never made it past the Asylum Demon and died a little bitch over and over before hollowing into insanity, making Oscar's sacrifice in vain.
>>338782989
i guarantee the DLC will be in the deep and will be accessible through irithyll dungeon
screenshot this
>>338789867
Lets just ignore all the signs pointing towards it being a reference to lovecraft.
Why are you so desperate for it to not be one?
What would you gain from that?
You have given no proof other than say everyone is wrong and dumb. You are like a walking fedora parody.
Is fighting fantasy also not the clear inspiration for the Sanctuary Guardian?
Why is this reference going to far for you?
>>338790254
that version certainly would make the events of 3 make more sense...
>>338789664
Alright that could be, although hexes are definitely related to Abyss. Not sure about Dark Magic in general
But we got 4 parts of the First Flame, but only 3 concepts being Fire/Light, Dark/Abyss and Chaos.
This still leaves Death unexplained as a force, a concept. I think Aldrich is also related to Death, and indirectly to Nito, but I don't have hard evidence. I think the DLC will go further into The Deep and we'll see
>>338789954
>Nationalism does not mean nazi
It does when you're a leftist cuck
>>338789819
>big grey 'make no sense' monstrasities nearer the end of the game
what boss?
>>338790307
Why irithyll dungeon and not CotD
>>338790693
think he means shit like the weird gollum crawling dudes in Iriythyll Dungeon, the fake drowned woman spiders, handie beasts, the dragons who are abyssified
instead of like, minotaurs and goblins and shit I guess
Fuck that, someone tell me what the fuck this thing is.
>>338791045
Remember all the undead at the beginning praying to and turning into trees.
This is the end result.
>>338791045
Look around the Lothric areas. There's hollows turning into trees all over and often praying towards the sun/sky.
The butterflies are what those hollows turned into.
>>338782175
>There's some sort of connection to Frampt
You mean Kaathe. Yuria is a Darkwraith.
>>338791045
It's one of those pilgrims. They're turning into dragons.
Along with the undead turning into trees, everything is transforming back to how the world used to be before the first flame was found by the Lords. It's a big reset.
>>338787875
Friendly reminder that there's a connection between him, Lothric, and the Scholars of the Grand Archives.
>>338791276
The Age of Everlasting Dragons which Gwyn and the other lords dismantled was not the first, and won't be the last.
>>338780046
>>338790149
>>338790238
I don't know if the handmaiden is actually Sirris' grandmother, she sells the Budding Blossom to you so I always figured she filched it from a grave. It might be some From humor though, that she doesn't care enough for a loving gift left behind by her granddaughter to keep her from selling it off to you. That's possible. Her personality compared to that of her past self is pretty strange though.
I think they're illusions because of the nature of Courland and transposition. I think that since Ludleth has the ability transpose souls, that is, to extract an essence and replace it with something relating to that soul that maybe he could've done the inverse with his power when it was at it's peak. Take the Blacksmith's hammer for example, we know that Ludleth was around during that age of Darkness and that Andre wasn't (the item description says that it's been passed down by blacksmiths of the shrine), while the Handmaiden was there and that Ludleth sought to "paint a new vision" by linking the fire after having seen that world. I think that Luddy maybe extracted the essence from the Hammer to reinvision Andre, a being from ages past.
It really doesn't have much to go on but that's my theory.
>>338791163
>>338791167
>>338791276
But why? The dragon theory seems to make the most sense, but the Pilgrim Butterflies are inherently creatures of the Abyss, going by what they shoot at you, what enemy type the Dragonslayer Armor is, and the fact that they used to likely be Londor Pilgrims.
>>338791901
Well yeah it is pilgrims turning into trees and then flying tree dragons.
>>338791532
kys
>>338791897
>I think they're illusions
Of course they are. The real Shrine Handmaiden is still in the Untended Graves. Like Andre, the one in Firelink is another illusion.
>>338791897
It's not just souls Ludleth can transpose. Remember he can fuse Lothric and Lorian's swords into the DaS3 Northern Regalia?
>>338791901
Everyone is trying to create dragons. Londor used the Pilgrims, and the Pontiff has a bunch of failed dragon creatures in his dungeon. The dragons and the Archtrees are important for the world for some reason.
>>338791986
But what do trees have to do with the Abyss?
>>338792049
NOTHING WRONG
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>>338792224
The abyss is below everything right? And out of are growing the everlasting archtrees.
I dunno.
>>338782396
The deep might not actually exist at all. Aldritch had a vision of an age of deep sea so he decided to prepare himself for it, we never actually see it or get details as to what it would actually entail.
>>338792224
Well for starters, what is the Abyss?
>>338792405
Definitely not lovecraft.
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>338791897
That makes a lot of sense, actually. Thanks for the insight, anon.
>>338792159
>The dragons and the Archtrees are important for the world for some reason
They're immortal, remember? Remember Aldia's experiments? It's the same thing. They want to prevent Hollowing by harnessing the immortality of dragons.
>>338792405
the opening cutscene in dark souls 1 says that "and then from the dark they came"
The abyss seems to be the coagulated stretch of humanity/hollows which seems to be one of the same, that composed the bedrock of the age of ancients world.
The biggest question in the dark souls universe is "what caused the flame to appear"
As of yet there doesn't appear to be an answer.
>>338785932
>>338783973
Doesn't really make sense, we know Anor Londo is still in largely the same place in DaS3 as it was in 1, still looks pristine on the outside and still house Gwyndolin until Pontiff and Aldritch did away with him. Lothric Castle is built near where Duke's Archives used to be, which also lines up with Ocieros and all his dragon-related research.
>>338791215
You're right, I meant Kaathe, my bad, wrong snek.
>>338792671
Isn't that like asking what made the Big Bang happen?
For some things I think they actually have the answers and are not giving them to us but I don't they actually came up with an explanation for the origin of the dark souls universe.
>>338792817
Maybe the same snek. Who knows if they don't actually all connect.
>>338791897
>>338792518
Oh wait I forgot to say that since the Priestess ring comes from the Shrine Handmaiden in the past, so it seems to me that maybe she may have been a priestess of Lothric before she became the handmaiden. I don't really know what to make of that item but it makes me think that the Shrine Handmaiden isn't from Irrithyl. It could be that they are completely different Handmaidens, and that the one in New Firelink is indeed from Irrithyl and is related to Sirris.
>>338792119
I think the Untended Graves is a look into the past, but yeah that's a good point, he can transpose two items that have the essences of a soul within them, so who knows where that power ends, not to mention that he can still transpose things for you after you're gone, unless it's actually you who transposes items in his stead, but I don't know if that's the case or not.
The only thing is what kiln Ludleth used to make the illusions, but maybe he didn't even need one or he somehow used the kiln of the first flame.
>>338792975
The priestess ring depicts emma though right?
She is one of the three pillars? Or the church in general I guess.
I don't know how much lore implications her selling the ring has. I mean she also sells artorias armor.
>>338785932
> the sea in DaS2 is also seen as a destructive force, as seen in heide as well as an avenue for travel as seen in the giant's memory.
That's really reaching. Water itself is a "destructive" force. It erodes not because of some darkness, but because water physically erodes. New Londo was flooded to destroy it, but that doesn't mean it was the deep at work.
There's nothing to suggest anything in Dark Souls 3 was once underwater, nor that Dark Souls 2 was "hundreds of miles" above Lordran (you don't seem to have much concept of scale).
>>338792671
so natural order is hollows crawl out of abyss -> die -> they either turn into a archtree or a butterfly
if butterfly then they eventually evolve into full grown dragons
am i missing something?
>>338791897
>>338792119
Firelink in DaS3 is real. Untended Graves and "dark" Firelink are in the past. You travel there and meet the Champ, who had arrived too late to stop the flame from going out due to being locked up by Oceiros and went hollow. The firekeeper is dead because the flame went out. Ludleth then linked the fire from within the encroaching age of dark, he "willed" himself a lord of cinder. This is all very clearly explained in the game, it in no way suggests the firelink you visit initially is an illusion.
>>338793138
I figured that she filched Artorias' armor from a grave, and yeah it does depict Emma, who is the high priestess, I think the Handmaiden was a lesser priestess underneath her, but yeah I could be digging too deeply. The Handmaiden of the past will also drop the ring, I think that's kinda telling.
>>338788868
It was my first thought after beating the twins and noticing the feathers. It made me think that the twins were actually related to Gertrude and the angels in some way.
>>338793374
What about the third firelink shrine you go to at the end of the game?
>>338787764
Think of Gwyn. He linked the fire, but he wasn't destroyed by it. His husk still sat there by the kiln being absurdly fucking strong in spite of all the power he gave up.
It was kind of assumed that he went hollow from linking the flame, but Dark Souls 3 shows that's not necessarily the case. Abyss Watchers seem hollow, but Ludlith is clearly still lucid. Yhorm is probably hollow, but Aldrich seemingly isn't.
>>338793374
>Champ was locked up by Oceriros
Where does it say this?
>>338790693
The pilgrim butterflies. Like the amygdalla, they only appear when the world is reeeally shitting itself.
>>338793374
I don't think the shrine itself is an illusion, I just think Andre and the Handmaiden are illusions propagated by Ludleth. I also don't think Oceiros locked up the champ, just that those graves were there and his wife visited them often.
>>338782145
>artorias's sword is stated to get a damage boost against abyss monsters
>one of the creatures artorias's sword gets a damage boost against is Aldrich
Aldrich/the deep Irrefutably confirmed for abyss related
>>338793560
My understanding is that you're going forward in time, the kiln is buried under a ton of shit and you can't get to it until it all erodes and crumbles away. Not too sure about that one, but it's pretty obvious dark firelink is simply in the past. It's exactly what Ludleth described, with Champ arriving too late, the age of dark starting and Ludleth linking the fire from within to stop it.
>>338793665
Wait are they not there if you go in early?
I know the lighting is different and the oil barrel room isn't dark
>>338793589
I think what he's getting at is that the Champ's ring is a broken chain whose description says he was locked up. Considering the game takes place in Lothric it's probably just an assumption since Oceriros. What I want to know is if Oceriros is related to Lothric and Lorian in some way. I mean the kingdom is named after Prince Lothric, so was Prince Lothric a ruler before Oceriros and was replaced after he burned, or is Oceriros his father or what?
So what is aldrichs connection to Nito, why does he have his sword?
>>338793797
>Andre and the Handmaiden are illusions propagated by Ludleth
That's certainly possible.
>>338793374
>in the past
But that doesn't make sense. How would Yoel's ashes be there if he hasn't traveled there yet?
If anything it's in the future. You're sent forward to a time when the lands have contorted and converged enough from the fading of the flame that the ashen one can actually travel on foot to find all of the lords.
>>338791045
Their Pilgrim Butterflies. Their connection to things is really vague. Their name implies connection with the Pilgrims of Londor, and they look like the Hollow trees all around the High Wall. They only show up with eclipse, and they can control armor. Anything else is just guesswork.
>>338781116
So illusions are essentially nanomachines?
>>338789008
I'm pretty sure you're familiar with the concept
>>338793870
If that's the case, that's pretty tight. I never killed Emma to get there early and you can't see any of them flying around outside, didn't know.
>>338794301
Fuck me they have to be there since you can fight dragonslayer right as the 3rd boss.
>>338794054
Don't have an answer for Yoel's ashes, but what about the Champ? He's all decrepit and infected with that goopy-dragon shit at the start of the game and you fight him in his prime later. His chain says he was imprisioned and Ludleth tells of a champion who arrived too late, the fire went out so Ludleth linked it himself. That all lines up.
Either way, firelink isn't an illusion, there are just some time-travel shenanigans involved.
>>338791045
it's just a mosquito don't worry about it
>>338794124
If you look closely at the pilgrims shells you can see small root like tendrils as well
Holy fuck the amount of wild reaches and speculations in this thread, I really didn't appreciate how bonkers this game's lore issues were until I saw a horde of fans trying to justify it
>>338794054
It could be another hollow's ashes. The item description just states that it was the ashes of a hollow who faithfully served a woman, only to become separated from her. While that certainly fits Yoel's description, it could be others. That's quite a bit of a stretch though since the item requires Yoel to be dead to appear.
It might be more likely that since Yoel was a hollow his ashes are drawn to the dark, and find themselves resting in a bygone firelink if he dies naturally since that place was consumed by darkness.
>>338791897
>I always figured she filched it from a grave
I didn't even realize that was a possibility. The grave near the Firelink Shrine, where Sirris's stuff and Hodrick's shield spawns might not be hers, or her grandfather's, but her grandmother's.
>>338794591
>lore issues
>wild reaches and speculations
but that's what's fun, making and coming to your own conclusions instead of the deeper stuff just being outright told to you in big plain letters. if that's not your cup of tea that's your issue.
>>338794664
I think a lot of the Haidmaidens goods before giving her ashes could have just come from her filching things from graves. I think that might be her deal.
>>338794795
I get that, and I like the dark souls type of story telling, but there's a point where the conclusions drawn go from reasonable conclusions to leaps without much evidence.
>>338794591
who is trying to justify anything?
The great thing about the lore is that if you don't give a fuck you can just ignore it.
>>338794451
I think it's more spacial traveling than time traveling. None of it's an illusion, but I don't think the two champs are the same. I mean, you kill them both, right?
>>338780572
Chosen undead never existed in the timeline that lothric and the surrounding lands exist in
Chosen undead wasn't around to kill ornstein, so ornstein left to pursue NK leaving smough to guard the "ruined cathedral" (it wasn't in ruins when dark souls took place, meaning a lot of time passed since that time and the time of ornstein's departure)
Chosen undead wasn't around to kill gwyndolin
Chosen undead wasn't around to go back in time and kill artorias and kill manus, meaning no one ever recovered the cleansing greatshield from the chasm of the abyss, hence why the undead legion spurn shield users, since they don't know artorias ever used a shield. Artorias was also never credited with the chosen undead's heroism, passing into history as the wolf knight who fell to the abyss, instead of the abysswalker who saved oolacile.
Chosen undead was never around to learn from quelana, and thus in this timeline quelana "never took another human pupil after salaman"
when you look at all these "plot holes" and "contradictions" together, it paints a picture of a divergent timeline where the events of DaS1 never took place.
>time is not the only thing convoluted in dark souls..
>but also space
I usually hate VaatiVidya, but what he said about space being convoluted is crazy even though he might have stolen it for someone. What did he mean by this? Why this time and space convoluted in the first place?
At first it seemed like the dragonslayer armor was Orenstein's melted down set, but then you find Orenstein's set at Archdragon Peak. So where the hell is the animated armor from?
>>338794559
I've noticed. Lots of things in the game are overgrown with trees and branches. It seems to be one of this game's themes.
>>338795181
So what is the lord of cinder if not the chosen undead fused with gwyn?
>>338795181
so in other words the only way to reconcile the lore is by considering ds1 noncannon, neat.
>>338795024
But the shrines are identical and are in the exact same place
You kill him in the past "after" you kill him in the future, so I'm not sure how that works entirely.
>>338795319
a collective of all the souls of lords who linked the fire in the past
My personal guess is:
The world has three forms. The first primal form is the natural state of the world, archtrees and dragons. Humans exist, but are unable to multiply because of dragons. The Flame is the core of the world and keeps the world in its current state.
The first Lords find the Flame and take it over, creating Souls, using their power to become gods and destroy the dragons and build a new world. Humanity spreads but because Souls are spread throughout the world their innate "Humanity" has no outlet, and they are subservient to the gods. However since the Flame was removed from the core of the world it begins to fade, and humans start to change as their Humanity, which is depicted as this dark energy, emerges at first as small black blobs and then later as a crazier, more virulent form in The Abyss. The Gods try to bury and destroy this occurrence repeatedly but it keeps on happening as the Age of Fire continues. However it's possible to feed Humanity to the Flame and use it as energy, so the Darksign is used by the Gods to trick humans and other beings into sacrificing themselves to feed the Age of Fire, thus extending the time. This is the second state of the world.
However the Abyss is ultimately the antithesis of the Flame and the Gods' world, so the continued Linking of the fire eventually has a negative effect, with more and more of the world turning Hollow and bleak and the light fading. Ash is omnipresent, the planet is sick, and eventually the Gods are all dead or mad. The planet realizes this and things start changing. The Flame begins to draw locations together in order to re-ignite itself using the Lords of Cinder, and the population (humans, giants, etc) all start transforming into archtrees and dragons in order to recreate the original state of the world.
(cont'd)
>>338795227
>Why this time and space convoluted in the first place?
Because as the age of fire nears its end the universe is literally falling apart.
>>338794917
One could argue that the Boss Armour she gets also comes from looted graves around Firelink. Although that may be digging too deep into a gaming convention
>>338795462
Pontiff Sulyvan, Londor and others notice this and start trying to artificially create dragons because they want to maybe prevent themselves from being transformed into dragons or trees too, and the winged undead are another manifestation of this. Same with the winged knights, they're being influenced by "Angels" to transform into new forms. Basically the whole world is going through a sort of instrumentality except instead of a pool of goo it's a pool of trees and dragons.
But there is a third state that was originally grasped at by Kaathe back in the first game. The Abyss wants to extinguish the flame and all the other shit, because then it will be humanity's chance to spread unchecked. The Age of Dark is specifically the Age of Men, so even if the current crop of Soul-"infected" humans who worship Gods die, eventually mankind will return and live in prosperity, unshackled by any other power. The reason the Abyss is depicted as being a black void is because the Age of Fire is defined by the perspective of the Gods, and they can't comprehend the Age of Dark except as something to fear. I think ultimately the Abyss winning is the best outcome because it leads to a world where things can grow without being controlled or restricted. Yes the Abyss is scary with monsters and horrors and stuff but that's just an illustration of Humanity's nature and potential.
The things I'm not sure of are the Primordial Serpents and the Darksign. I have a feeling the Darksign is some sort of innate human defense mechanism that allows them to resurrect indefinitely and eventually get strong enough to kill the Gods, but has the side effect of eventually turning the human into a Hollow. It's sort of like a limiter release. The Serpents though may simply be ancient beings that resent the Age of Fire and want to end it, maybe because all the ash ended up flooding their primordial lake home, I don't know.
Whatever, it's not like you read all this shit anyway.
>>338795227
DS2 features some pretty impossible space. Plus, you've got other players popping in and out from other dimensions, so the idea of a warped up rubix cube of universes doesn't make that seem like much of a stretch at all.
I actually fucking love that kind of story element. Reminds me of the Dark Tower books.
>>338795264
Dragonslayer was a guy who worked for both Nameless King and Ornstein. He was basically 3rd in command
from the miracle Sacred Oath:
"This is the tale of the Sun's firstborn, his faithful first knight, and the brave dragonslayer who served them both."
>>338795484
If the age of fire is what makes living on Dark Souls world viable for a normal person, what was the Age of Ancients like then? How did the little humans managed to live underground? Can't they do the same thing if the fire ever faded or something?
I really feel like Fromsoft will have one last Dark Souls hurrah and release the full, canon, story of all our tireless adventures. Would be a great read.
>>338795373
I meant spacial in a "space and time are convoluted in Lordran" kind of way. Like it exists in another timeline/dimension/whatever, but bits of it cross over.
>>338795607
nah
>>338781521
Maybe Ornstein is an undead.
>>338795573
>what was the Age of Ancients like then?
Grey, nothing happened, dragons, everyone was Hollow i.e Pygmy.
>>338795461
So how did they link the fire without killing ornstein?
>>338795607
> wanting definitive answers
>>338780046
I kinda agree, actually. I also think Gravelords were progenitors of the Sable Church of Londor that eventually settled in Irithyll.
>>338793915
Oceiros is the king and father to Lothric, Lorian, and several other unamed children.
The hidden blessing item states that "The Queen of Lothric, married to the former King Oceiros, was initially revered as a goddess of fertility and bounty. After giving birth to Ocelotte, her youngest, she quietly disappeared."
Dark Souls lore is really cool, I don't get why /v/ hates it so much.
The whole linking of fire concept is very very interesting, but I don't read much books and it's probably been used. The whole Dark Souls world sounds like a fantasy Twilight Zone.
>>338795607
I don't actually want answers.
Knowing everything kills the idea of being just a small unimportant part of the world.
>>338795747
Ornstein is not a lord, and thus his soul is not required for fire linking.
>>338795567
The wording for Sacred Oath is really weird. I get the feeling that "his faithful first knight" just describes the Firstborn as Gwyn's faithful first knight, and the dragonslayer serves both the Firstborn and Gwyn.
I thought the Japanese would make it clearer, but I don't speak it so someone else with something better than google translate should probably do it.
太陽の長子と、その筆頭騎士
そして竜狩りの剣士の物語は
最も勇壮な竜狩り譚であるという
>>338792673
>Anor Londo is still in largely the same place in DaS3 as it was in 1, still looks pristine on the outside and still house Gwyndolin until Pontiff and Aldritch did away with him.
This makes sense with drang being miles above anor londo, like I said the only remnants of Lordran were magical in nature or were actively preserved with magic.
Sulyvahn supposedly founded Irathyll of the Boreal Valley after discovering the profaned flame under the "tundra of Irathyll"
The old cathedral of Anor Londo was preserved by Gwyndolin during the age of deep seas, and when the ocean was drained(or possibly when Sully started building up Irathyll during his wizarding days) he fell sick and was no longer able to protect the cathedral.
As for the archives, Lothric was clearly built around them. The High Wall is stated to have "suddenly appeared" along with the divine messengers, which was likely a result of the fire's link being threatened. It also happened after Sulyvahn had proclaimed himself pontiff, as many outrider knights linger in lothric.
This also makes me think that by protecting the sunken cathedral Gwyndolin was possible exposed to the deep, and being devoured by Aldrich caused him to have his "deep waters" revelation.
>>338793149
>Water itself is a "destructive" force. It erodes not because of some darkness, but because water physically erodes.
this lines right up with the deep though. The deep is not evil in nature, it corrupts simply by existing.forgive me I am horrible at draw
>>338795537
This is assuming you take Kaathe and the Darkwraiths' word for many things.
>>338795936
>I don't get why /v/ hates it so much.
Other people like it now too.
That is a problem.
/v/ used to have a lot of demon's and dark souls 1 discussion but with the pc release the fanbase got officially too big and it has now to be hated.
What if Dark Souls 2 takes place after Dark Souls 3?
>>338794956
Dissecting a lot of the bits is fun because it connects you to the world/game more.
DS3's biggest failing is that it's objectively the most scrambled and most confusing than the other Souls games, even more than BB and that was BB's point.
>>338793961
Item descriptions make no mention of whether it's a part of his staff or a conjured miracle like Priscilla's lifehunt scythe spell.
Occam's razor says since he's the "devourer of godS" plural, he must have absorbed at least one other god besides gwyndolin. His lower body mass is studded with skeleton parts, though those could just as easily be human sacrifices instead of the special skeletons that make up nito's "body".
"Devourer of gods" might be a mistranslation since Japanese doesn't use plurals the same way English does, or it could be a bragging epithet he applied to himself despite not being wholly accurate.
If nito was still around for Aldrich to consume, we would have to assume he either wasn't destroyed by chosen undead, or that his "corpse" was left over after the chosen undead pilfered his lord soul and still contained enough of nito for Aldrich to absorb some of his power.
>>338796025
So he just fucked off and decided to not protect the lordvessel?
I like the idea more that after being beaten by the CU he decided that he has failed Gwyn and is now done with his service and will now seek out his old mentor.
Don't know why people get so triggered by the idea of things coming back after being killed when that is an incredibly common thing even just in the first game.
Why would I prefer a version of the story in which Ornstein is a huge pussy?
>>338796248
Not really, I think BB is more esoteric since one of its main plot points requires you to have read and recognized a dusty old unpopular fantasy novel from 1927.
>>338796082
The image of Sacred Oath is three swords crossed so it seems logical that it references three dudes
>>338796248
How is that a failing?
I prefer it that way.
>>338780046
The Deep - faith of the Gravelords, mostly unrelated to the Abyss or the Dark, as it was practiced by living flame-havers (ie., not the Undead, and not humans)
Abyss - world-ending consumptive force, when Gwyn linked the flame and broke the cycle, the Abyss was created to eventually end it
Dark - the primal force of humanity and impure by nature, looked down on by divine Lords. Humans and mortality are seen as harbingers of the ending of the Age of Fire.
This isjust my opinion
>>338796434
Yeah, 3 dudes. The Sun, the Firstborn, and the Dragonslayer.
>dark souls 1 and 3
>many people are hollow and unkindled like you
>kill Solaire and Siegward
>they die permanently
????
why dont they respawn like you ??
>>338780902
Do you even know what a meme game is, or did you just see someone use that term on /v/ one day and decide games you don't like are meme games?
>>338796208
DS2 takes place in an alternate world that eventually converges with DS1's to create DS3, which is a bunch of barely-connected worlds smashed together before the big darkening.
>>338796370
Nigga, after being beaten by the chosen undead, he's fucking dead. He doesn't have a darksign. He's dead.
Dark Souls 3 confirms that Ornstein of DaS1 was an illusion created by Gwyndolin.
>>338796683
>Nigga, after being beaten by the chosen undead, he's fucking dead. He doesn't have a darksign. He's dead.
Gwyn didn't have a darksign. You meet him in 1 after he linked the fire.
>>338796589
Perhaps in their last moments, they lose the will to return having been betrayed by another undead and go hollow?
>>338796589
people treat respawning like it's some element of the lore that's consistent and anything other than a mechanic, it's just an inconsistency.
>>338796589
How do you know they don't?
>>338796683
Ornstein is eventually brought backas unkindled ashin Heidewhere he tries to kill another chosen undead and fucks up again.
>>338793961
The gravelord blade is just a miracle Aldritch uses. He's actually holding a Golden Ritual Spear
>>338796789
Because he's a lord of cinder. You don't die when you link the flame. He's a shell of his former self.
>>338795319
That's just it - the soul of cinder contains MULTIPLE chosen undeads. There are at least four builds present that it alternates between, in much the same way it alternates between a chosen undead and gwyn being in control - a knight, a pyromancer, a sorcerer and a cleric.
The flameless shrine world appears to be coterminous with all timelines, and can draw different chosen undeads to use in the soul of cinder amalgamation.
The world in which lothric is situated in contains no chosen undead, only an abyss-consumed firelink shrine with a champion who "arrived too late to the festivities".
It's a different world than the flameless shrine, just as its a different world than ludleth's firelink shrine. You can't walk between these worlds, only firelink's flame can bridge the gap, owing to the first flame's nature as a universal contstant.
>>338790095
This guy gets it.
But at the same time some of the shit people come up with is bulletproof while 95% of the rest of the community thinks that Solaire is actually a manifestation of Fraser's emotions inside a dream within a dream during while a hooker stabs him in his sleep.
>>338796589
I've always thought that you die "permanently" if you give up all your determination or lose all your sanity. Like, reviving endlessly is a test of willpower, eventually it grinds you down and you go hollow. In hollow form you become mindless and just attack people until you run out of steam. You can be killed and stay dead for a while, but your remains will eventually get back up at some point in the future, be it in a week or a hundred years. When you killed a hollowed character in the game you weren't killing them forever, you were just putting them out of comission for the rest of the game.
>>338796921
Isn't a Tin Darkmoon Catalyst ?http://darksouls.wikidot.com/tin-darkmoon-catalyst
>>338797129
Assuming that From didn't just rename and redesign the item, the Golden Ritual Spear isn't the same as the Tin Darkmoon Catalyst.
>>338781116
Why do "illusions" drop the soul of the person that it's copying?
>>338796404
You don't need to read any of his stuff, just a vague notion of his popular themes: Knowledge so fucked it makes you insane, humanity seeming insignificant, and what is more or less 'dreamworld real estate'.
>>338796456
The idea of it being themes not just from previous Souls games but Demon's and BB as well. it's bar-none the most convoluted, loses a bit of the original's identity, and creates some of the most clusterfucky nonsense.
Did it need to be this 'all in one' package of the other games' ideas, or should it have stuck with DS1 and 2's?
>>338797343
>>338797129
Different angle.
They might be the same thing, since they do look similar.
>>338797545
and furthermore, why do "illusions" not die in one hit? Think about every confirmed illusion we've seen (walls, gwynevere, boss copies). They all die in one hit, only the ones that people speculate about don't. coincidence??
>>338797547
It's really not. I figured most of this stuff out as I played.
>>338797547
>>Did it need to be this 'all in one' package of the other games' ideas, or should it have stuck with DS1 and 2's?
I don't what it NEEDS to be. Personally I prefer spiritual sequels completely over direct ones.
But if they are direct why do they have to follow the same formula to a t?
DaS3 toned down the level interconnectivity for better bosses for example
Now whether or not you prefer the das1 approach of really good levels and okay bosses or das3s okay levels and good bosses doesn't really matter.
I think the most important thing is that they both are different and tried something else.
Same with the lore.
>>338797547
There's only really a few BB easter eggs, and the few nods to DeS are pretty suspect too.
Shit, you could probably rope in lots of other From games if you tried, but they really aren't as related as some autists might think. It's like trying to say Fallout takes place in the Mad Max universe.
>>338788038
But the Old Ones were, literally, aliens. Who had given up on technology after mastering it, and then came to earth using great wings to traverse the stars.
>>338798128
What BB easter eggs?
>>338798180
>given up on technology
wat
>>338798246
Hunter's Ring
>>338798289
That's not a Bloodborne reference, it's just a ring representing Gothard and the other royal hunters.
Anyone else wish the miracles actually came with the stories that their about?
>>338798246
pontiff's eye rings, one of them gives you BB's health regain mechanic, but you're warned that prolonged use of them will turn you into a mindless beast.
Sulyvahn was making his own mini-bloodborne scenario in irythill's moonlit quasi-Victorian city.
>>338797950
I'd definitely argue against using thr same major story revelations (Untended Graves). It's not 'something new'.
>>338798128
Easter Eggs are good. I dunno about another invisible baby, though. Weird that the two most 'Bloodborny' elements are one after the other - in an optional area no less.
Does the presence of Grave Wardens in the Cathedral of Deep help support the idea that that there's a connection between the Cathedral of Deep and Nito?
They may not be same organization as DS2 gravelords, buy they share the same goals of making sure the dead stay dead.
>>338798851
>I'd definitely argue against using thr same major story revelations (Untended Graves). It's not 'something new'.
So on the one hand it is shit because it is different but the things that are similar are also shit.
>>338798848
The Ring of the Evil Eye has existed since DS1 though.
>>338798892
*DS2 Grave Wardens
>>338798924
If you don't want to make sense, sure.
I'm saying it's lazy. It'd be if Kotor 2 tried to do the same twist as Kotor 1.
>>338789031
>>338787538
Every time i start watching something i start seeing you faggots post something related. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Okay wait a minute.
Why does everything turn red when you kill Aldrich?
What the fuck are those flying things at Lothric Castle, and why does one of them bring the armor to life?
Also, why the fuck do they shoot meteors and laser beams? What's with the black things around the dragon's legs, and why are the knights apparently deaf and blind when you use the slumbering ring? Also, why the fuck are there so many of those hellspawns in the gardens?
>>338799209
Remember all those Pilgrim corpses around the castle and the bridge?
They hatched.
>>338799184
Sequels are inherently lazy.
I am not sure kotor is a good example.
It is like the worst sequel in terms of laziness.
If your agument is that the story isn't a lazy retread then okay but different games have different focuses
>>338798254
Yup. They gave up on it because they came to the realization that it the power gained by using technology was a hollow form of superiority. So they turned their attention towards gaining power in all the ways they're known for in the lovecraftian lore. I wish I could remember what story that's in. I think it may be mountains of madness; something they see in a mural as they're exploring the city. But I'm not sure.
I just know that I got to the thread late and that asshole up top was talking completely out of his ass.
>>338798993
The ring of the evil eye still exists, and it restores HP for every defeated foe.
The pontiff's eye ring restores HP for each successive hit in a combo, closer to BB's rally mechanic but without the required damage beforehand.
>>338799209
>Why does everything turn red when you kill Aldrich?
Fire is going out.
>What the fuck are those flying things at Lothric Castle, and why does one of them bring the armor to life?
Pilgrim Butterflies, and no idea, maybe to stop you from reaching Prince Lothric.
>Also, why the fuck do they shoot meteors and laser beams?
Magic, ain't gotta explain shit.
>What's with the black things around the dragon's legs
Pus of Man, another sign the Flame is about to sputter out.
>why are the knights apparently deaf and blind when you use the slumbering ring
Because magic, so shut up.
> Also, why the fuck are there so many of those hellspawns in the gardens?
See above about Gwyn's Barbecue going out. And why? Who knows maybe that place is too close to the Dark, maybe Oceiros had them as research subjects because of his dragon boner.
