>17 years later
>No RPG comes close
What went wrong, /v/?
>>338054119
Removal of journals.
>>338054119
A few things:
>Your mom didn't take birth control.
>Your mom didn't abort you.
>You have shit taste.
>Your mom was a bit of a slut.
>Your dad's pull out game wasn't very good.
>Planescape wasn't very good.
>Hitler didn't win the war.
It's shit.
>>338054119
Overrated. It has great writing, but the interface and combat are truly a torment.
It is flawed enough to be foolish of anyone who claims no other RPG comes close. Baldur's Gate alone can leave it in the dust if we're not comparing the story.
>>338054119
RPGS peaked in the late 90's to early 2000's.
>>338054119
>Its's a "best game ever was actually shit except for the story" episode
>>338054119
Well there's The Witcher 3 and Bloodborne.
>>338054476
>but the interface and combat are truly a torment
thanks anon
>>338054119
>2006
>every rpg in action rpg
>fully voice acting
>few dialogue lines
>boring press two buttons combat
There where everything goes shit
>>338054476
>Overrated. It has great writing, but the interface and combat are truly a torment.
The story/choice&consequence as well as over all roleplaying potential is unmatched. Baldur's Gate has more depth in the build variety/combat but as an RPG, it doesn't come close.
Anyone saying "this game only had a good story" didn't play the game.
Just take this miniscule feature to give you an idea over how depth the roleplaying potential was
>You can tell somebody "Yes, I promise to return" and [Lie]
>You can tell somebody "Yes, I promise to return" and [Truth]
Now obviously, this is such a miniscule thing but it just shows you the depth of this games dialogue system to where most games would just have you promise to return and leave it up to you if you do or not, this game allows you to actually develop your character the way you want
>>338054119
Today's gamers are too casual for it. They get intimidated by the amount of text and the tough combat. You can easily fail the game just by picking the wrong stats. It's such a shame.
>>338054378
You gotta be one of the stupidest person to walk this planet if you honestly think any of that is a legit reason. baka.gif.
>>338054119
Actually my fav game. Theres one thing I didn't understand, however. The game says that TNO used to lose his memories whenever he died, right?
So, what changed? How come the Incarnation we play as doesn't forget his no matter how much he dies? I'm sure they explained that at some point and I missed it.
>>338054119
we went for graphics.
>>338054119
The game is shit.
>>338054119
It's shit game for neckbeards. The writing is fanfic tier and cringy, the gameplay is not even there, and the aesthetics are just D&D uninspired shit.
>>338054119
Nothing
>>338056534
He said RPGs
>>338056441
Provide evidence that you've played the game.
>>338056441
You have shit taste and you probably didn't play the game.
>>338055025
>The story/choice&consequence as well as over all roleplaying potential is unmatched.
this is a joke. the game doesn't even have branching routes. the whole lie/truth thing doesn't even do anything aside from change your alignment, which has virtually no effect on anything. the fact that you bring it up as some kind of amazing thing just shows that planescape fans are all drones easily impressed by illusion of depth.
>>338058150
>this is a joke. the game doesn't even have branching routes.
Confirmed for having not played the game.
>>338056441
>aesthetics are just D&D uninspired shit.
How can you be this wrong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUt84LyH2JI
>TFW play for first time (understanding everything)
>Meet Deionarra and learn her backstory a bit.
>Suddenly sensory stone. That fucking sensory stone.
>For first time in games feel like shit about something.
>If you do dialogues right, you can truly tell her that you love her.
>If you tell her truth about your past reincarnation true feelings she still understand.
>If you lie, her last line fucking tell you she knew from first moment that Pragmatic reincarnation used her and she still love him/you.
I wasn't ready.
Also:
>Dak'kon/Ignus/Morte backstory connected to you.
>Things you can do to Dak'kon.
It wasn't ready...
>>338058493
>that book that lets you sell your followers for slavery
i didn't have the heart to do it myself
>>338058429
>brown stone everything
>ocasional green
It's the same fucking thing, it's even a RPG campaign.
>>338054119
Voice acting
AAA-games
>>338058493
I've just started playing this game (i've reached Sigil) and holy shit, I can't believe I lef this game that long
Prior to this I had played Morrowind, New Vegas and considered those games deep and complex but holy shit, this game shits on them in terms of role playing potential. To think that people think "Witcher 3 set a new standard in the RPG genre" when games like Planescape have existed for so long.
I'm rolling a semi neutral back stabbing type of character who is only trying to survive and will do whatever it takes. I can already sense the feels that i'm going to experience on this playthrough.
>>338058664
>Selling Dak'kon.
>His race was slaves for ages.
>He is under your torment affection and can't do anything to deny it.
>He will be trapped in slavery until death which may not give him peace because of his debt towards you.
>>338058968
Don't forget to level up wisdom and charisma in one of your playthroughs anon, much of the game is hidden behind the dialogues you unlock from those stats
also intelligence opens new dialogues as well if i'm not mistaken
>>338055490
>"One of the stupidest person..."
Stupidest person detected.
>>338058968
Reached Sigil just after first location, I assume? Or after Baator? If second one, you are at the end.
Have fun and play as you want, but be ready for feels. And to be honest W3 is good, at least in current age of gaming. By the way, got some steam? I'm always up to talk about shit or help with game if you need it.
>>338054119
Puple Prose : The game
Go read a book.
>>338059290
Did all of that,
Wisdom = 18
Charisma = 15
Intelligence = 16
So far
>>338059436
>Reached Sigil just after first location,
First location, i've barely played it. Been reading everything, speaking to everyone and searching every nook and crannie, I have a bach of side quests to partake on but already this game has left me impressed.
>Have fun and play as you want, but be ready for feels. And to be honest W3 is good, at least in current age of gaming. By the way, got some steam? I'm always up to talk about shit or help with game if you need it.
Yea, I like Witcher 3 and find it pretty damn good but it's just so watered down as an RPG that I cringe whenever people say it "set a standard".My Steam is Muttley but i'm at work right now, i'll be able to accept you when I get home
>>338054119
There have been virtually no innovations in RPG dialogue. There's the "dialogue wheel", but it's the same shit as always except simplified/dumbed down for consoles, it's pure "convenience" and nothing substantial. Planescape was the peak and it's been (mostly) downhill ever since.
Reminder that that talking to people in an RPG with diverse dialogue options IS GAMEPLAY and thinking combat is the only form of gameplay is stupid.
>>338059957
Then why did they make the game 80% combat?
A: Because it's a shit game.
>>338059741
>Muttley
Jesus Christ, was a while before I heard that name.
Catch the pigeon, catch the pigeon...
>>338060153Best cartoon ever made
>>338060117
or B: they didn't
>>338060117
That's actually a good point, it didn't need to have to much combat when it's not the focus.
But it's still a good game.
>>338060117
>Every encounter can be avoided outside of maybe 4~ at mostGit Gud
>>338060204
muh i can run or something right ? fuck off, it's still combat, and it's shit.
>>338054119
Nothing can change the nature of man
>>338058204
I did and it doesn't.
>>338060117
>Then why did they make the game 80% combat?
Did you play Fallout 4 by mistake?
Come on mate, the titles aren't even similar
>>338059741
>>338060117
>Muttley
Also which one, there are around 200 on steam.
>>338058894
This even if I think it's more voiced MC than global voice acting.
>>338060189
One of best, next to Wacky Races. Dick Dastardly is one of best "evil" characters in cartoons. Also see
>>338060528
>>338060342
>combat is still combat if you can avoid combat
>>338060291
There is 2 obligatory kills, the first zombie in the mausoleum and the Curst guard
>>338060510
I sat with a stopwatch while I played through part of the game and even in area without respawning bandits the game is 80% waching your characters walk around 15% reading and 5% picking dialogue options. in an hour of gameplay you spend less than 5 minutes actually interacting with the game.
As much as I love PST for its story and characters, as far RPGs go Fallout 2 simply dominates this game. F2 actually gives you a full freedom of roleplay and means to fulfill it. PST is more of an adventure game, or a visual novel, its the best story ever told in vidya but its still just that, a very linear story
>>338060674
Add Ravell to that.
>>338060671
>>338060291
>>338060674
It's still shit GAMEPLAY, they could have not put that fucking many unnecessary enemies and the game would have been better.
>>338060860
Hint 1: toggle running
Hint 2: interactivity =/ minigames and combat
>>338060938
Now even looking at your monitor is gameplay ? Just stop man, i like the game but you are making me look like a retard.
>>338060674
it's more honest to claim that combat is avoidable in final fantasy 8 than planescape
>>338060938
>Hint 2: interactivity =/ minigames and combat
>Hint 3: if you can take your hands of the keyboard you aren't interacting with the game
>every companion is bro as fuck
>and then there's this faggot
>>338060861
Agreed.
I was thinking that PST had great story and atmosphere, but was lacking in game play. On the other hand Arcanum has a good story (excellent VA) but better game play. Wonder what we could have had if they'd taken the best of each and mashed them together.
>>338060528
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Muttleym8
>>338060860
>chess is fucking SHIT game, 95% of time you just stare at the board!
>>338061360
speed chess is a thing, and you're thinking about your possible moves the entire time. what strategy are you thinking about while you watch your characters run back and forth between quest npcs?
>>338060898
If you want to fight them, they are there for you to fight. If you don't want to fight, you don't have too - use your charisma do avoid a fight or just sneak through everything as a thief. How you tackle combat, too, is a choice, as it should be in a proper RPG.
>>338061030
>>338061181
The bulf of the gameplay in Torment is in the choices you make, how you interact with characters and the world, and how you you build your character thorugh these experiences. Combat is just a small part of the "gameplay" the game offers, and interactivity means much more than just clicking at things on the screen or mashing buttons on the controller. Torment gives you many different ways to interact with the world and the story.
>>338061626
Torment is not a strategy game. Don't pretend you didn't understand what anon meant.
>>338054119
It had zero choices.
Alpha Protol is still king on choice/consequence.I still love PS:T
>>338061334
Request is in your mailbox.
>>338062236
I'll accept it when I get home m8.
Why did TNO stop losing memories upon death? He even dies to win a bet once.
Did I miss something? Didn't Grace sacrifice herself just so he could live?
>>338063193
It's due to gameplay reasons.
>>338063193
I aked this earlier too >>338056003
I think it might have something to do with the three incarnations that are hanging out in the Fortress of Regrets, as they mention that they are the one responsable to helping you regain your lost memories, as a means to allow you to succeed. I don't think it is just for gameplay reasons >>338063740, either, as some characters (like Morte) make mention of this.
>>338055328
>TOUGH COMBAT
> Planescape
Pick one. Planescape was the easiest of all Infinity games.
>>338062031
>It had zero choices.
Stopped reading
>>338061946
>The bulf of the gameplay in Torment is in the choices you make
this is an outright lie. the bulk of the game is watching your characters walk back and forth between quest npcs.
>interactivity means much more than just clicking at things on the screen or mashing buttons on the controller.
if you can take your hands off the keyboard you literally aren't interacting with the game.
>sold on this game from the picture of Lady of Pain
>she's even in the main menu, get hype
>characters keep talking about her godly levels of badassery, can't wait man
>not actually in a game save for 10 second long cutscene
FUCK
>>338055490
>baka.gif
KYS
>>338056441
Aesthetics is a matter of personal taste, and I can agree that the game is pretty awful gameplay-wise, but provide please an example of better writing in vg.
>>338064423
She is mean to be a mystery. Complete mystery. Biggest of Planescape next to Sigil true nature.
(Read Die Vecna Die adenture to classic D&D to find out little bit about her)
>>338056003
It was explained in paranoid incarnation diary - Dodecahedron.
>>338065203
What is the explanation then?
>>338064819
even metal gear solid is better than planescape. at least kojima tries to develop his themes, even if they are copied from different movies.
>>338065404
It isn't actually properly explained but the paranoid incarnations diary has an entry where some magic man told him that if he died an X amount of times (I forgot the amount) he'd stop losing his memories.
>>338065914
That's convenient, sounds more like an excuse than an explanation.
>>338054119
>>338065779
>even metal gear solid is better than planescape
Weebs pls
>>338064218
>this is an outright lie. the bulk of the game is watching your characters walk back and forth between quest npcs.
I cant tell even whether you haven't played the game or are just baiting. Let's give a simple quest that I vaguely remember as an example. You talk to a character, listen to what they have to say. It seems this guys is a monk, some sort of warrior-priest that has taken a vow of non-violence. This guy has had his prayer necklace stolen by a bunch of thugs, so he asks you to help him out, as he isn't alowed to fight them himself.
You track down the thugs (which is really fast, as the character tells you where you can find them and the the town of Sigil is quite small and you move at a reasonable pace) and talk to them. Here, you have a option; you can murder the hell of these guys, you can lie to them that this guy's order is pissed off and is going after them, and I assume that you must be able to pick-pocket them as well, though I haven't tried this.
After acquiring the necklace, you go back to the quest giver. He asks you how you handled the situation; you can be either speak the truth, lie or just say that how you did it is not important. If you killed the men, you can argue with this guy about how his vow is fucked up, as a warrior should be able to defend himself, and the list goes on. As a reward, you can get this guy to teach you to be a better fighter.
Every little quest is like this, with numerous different ways you can tackle every part of the quest, numerous choices that allow you to shape TNO how you want him to be, and a reward that directly improves your character, reinforcing the fact that this is your personal experience.
How in the fuck does this translate in your head as "lol you just walk the whole game xD"? Would you like it better if there wasn't an immersive game world for you to play in, and every character was together in a tiny room so theres no travelling, no need to explore in a fucking RPG?
>>338064218
>>338066532
(cont)
>if you can take your hands off the keyboard you literally aren't interacting with the game.
Like a said, there's interactivity in how you the game world, characters and the story reacts to your personal choices. Everything in this game is built around shaping your character. I assume you think P&P has no interactivity as well, because you just throw the dice sometimes?
(I apologize for the long and austic post, by the way, but I am tired of reading this sort of thing on these threads)
>>338066021
It is that he lose memories only if death was connected to his mortality, shadows or it was death by really powerful thing that wouldn't regenerate him for longer time. (So mostly shadows)
During game it seems that he have willpower strong enough to endure more then few more death (aka our reincarnation have it)
>a 25 WIS, 25 CHA and 25 INT TNO in the Blood War at the end
The thing is is that most RPGs don't exactly have well written stories. Very often, other genres will do a better job. I think a big part of the problem is that the focus is never on the story, it's about the Become Stronger trope and that doesn't focus on character-related stories, it's all about a struggle versus the environment. At the end of the day, it doesn't have much more of a story than, say, Ark: Survival Evolved.
That's going to make some people angry. Some stupid people. Yes, I know The Witcher 3 has more WORDS, but that doesn't necessarily mean more STORY. It's a false correlation. It's like how people hold up Planescape: Torment as a good RPG. I played that and it's a bunch of poorly realised pseudointellectual wank. It lacked all of the cornerstones of what makes a good story. There was no real motivation or cause, there was no drive, and the world just felt dead and depressing. Nihilist. Pseudointellectual wank, basically. Like I said.
Even Fallout (the original) was a better story than that. I feel that the later Mask of the Betrayer did a better job at having a story. I really dislike how people who don't read much confuse 'many words' with 'a story.'
>>338067737
>That fan joke "theory" about Blood War in 5e of D&D suprising lack of Blood War (it still is, but is more background):
>Nameless was so powerful that he created his own party of people and won blood war. And he is slowly ending it.
>>338068216
Is this some new pasta?
The reason that these RPGs no longer exist is that game devs decided that they can no longer make games that require the players to read.
For example, when you take up a book/note in any action game or Fallout 4, do you read it in full or just put it back to your inven and continue playing?
Of course making reading in games inconvenient has a lot to do with it but you can't expect kids these days to read 10000 lines of dialogue.
>people agree that gameplay is shit and mechanics are fucked
>the game is praised because it has "good" writing
I'll never understand this.
>>338069634
>the game
See, there's your problem. Its a book, not a game
>>338060881
You aren't the one killing ravel.
>>338070640
You still must splat her on the ground. Besides, you don't know that.
>>338054119
Age of Decadence surpassed Torment in many regards.
>>338069634
>underages agree that gameplay is shit and mechanics are fucked
ftfy
>>338070640
Psst, go away, i'm dead
>>338057740
>>338057405
He is right though, if you took the written sections and strung them together into a novel, you would basically have a low tier fantasy novel, the kind you just walk by in a barnes and nobel. I question whether you guys have actually played it.
The good stuff about the game was the re-activity and the ability to actually roleplay your choices, not the writing or story or graphix
>>338071714
>if you rip text from a game and make a novel out of it, it will be shit
Woah
>>338071839
Please, the quality of writing is equal to a world of warcraft quest in classic, or the bethesda dark brotherhood lines.
Its basically like being valedictorian of summer school.
>>338068216
I disagree about Torment having a bad story but I still essentially agree with your post. What makes Torment remarkable is NOT the story. This is a myth perpetuated by self-proclaimed internet intellectual gamers who have probably never played the game or have played it years after.
What made Torment remarkable is purely its mechanics.
Torment managed to seamlessly involve player stats and player decisions into the narrative. Depending on his build, the player will have different ways of solving certain things or he will notice things that characters with other builds may miss out on. The world is perceived 'through' the player character, going through the filter of his abilities - as it should be in a role playing game.
Also, when it comes to decision making, Torment went away from purely moral choice and made the decisions more utilitarian, in the sense that the player would be given opportunities to do things depending on the task at hand, rather than attempting to hamfist a good/neutral/evil option into every possible dialogue. Arguably Fallout did this first, but Torment took it to the next level. Also, the utmost focus on dialogue-based role playing was a new one, pretty much introduced with Torment.
It's a shame that when talking about Torment people usually wank about plot and writing, which is purely subjective and arguably not that extraordinary aside from sheer scale. What made Torment great was its role playing mechanics - which are undebatably ground-breaking.
>>338054119
Age of Decadence is a better roleplaying game.
Pretty much the best RPG in terms of actual roleplaying.
>>338071714
No there was very little reactivity and ability to roleplay.
The game relies pretty much only on the story, and it can since it's one of the best written. The game also breaks a fuckload of fantasy tropes so saying it's like any other is just retarded.
>>338054119
It's not even the best Infinity Engine game.
>>338054119
How does it feel playing a shitty reddit/tumblr tier game where you spend countless hours reading pointless text that rarely have anything to do with the main plot?
>>338072470
see
>>338072231
Also the argument for its originality is ridiculous to anyone who played tabletop pen and paper Planescape.
>and it can since it's one of the best written
This made me spit seltzer everywhere. Fucking Dragon Age Origins was written better than this, and writers like Abercrombie, Scott Lynch, Gene Wolfe, GRRM, Ericson etc make it look like fanfiction ala >>338068216
>>338054119
Well, Avellone invested about six months of his own personal time after pre-production in order to flesh out the game further. That's basically what never happens anymore.
Is Torment: Tides of Numenera a gimmick?
>>338072950
What does Planescape have to do with Tumblr ?
>>338071578
The only people okay with PC games using DnD are faggot millennials who missed out on the real thing because they spent their lives on the internet. They think they're fucking old school because they use crude dice instead of proper mechanics while completely missing the point of the original game: Role-playing. Real RPing, not this "select a prewritten response during conversations" bullshit.
>>338073184
It seems to be solidly written in the same verbose style as PST, but isn't weird enough. At least not based on what's in the alpha so far. Has the potential to be really good, though.
>>338073009
>Dragon Age Origins
>GRRM
lmao
>>338063740
>>338064079
Pretty sure one of the incarnation recorded in the tomb talked about contacting a mage about dealing with the memory issue. But he had to die like one more time before the effect work
>>338073414
Well I didnt want to get all /lit/, but fantasy is a shit genre in the first place, and I just wanted to list the best in fantasy.
Almost all fantasy except for Tolkien, Ishiguro's latest, Eric Rücker Eddison, and maybe Ursula Le Guin is made for plebs that might very well think that fantasy is actually a worthwhile pursuit. Fact is if you think Planescape is great writing, you are basically a pseud.
>>338066532
I'm telling you that I literally sat there playing the game with a stop watch to see how long I spent doing certain things. just take your quest for example. say it takes about 20 seconds to read his shit and accept the quest. then it takes 45 seconds to run to where the bandits are, 10 seconds to decide on whether to attack them or not, 30+ seconds to beat their asses, another 45 seconds to run back to the quest giver, 20 more seconds reading his dialogue, and 10 seconds choosing how to reply. that's 3 minutes to clear the quest, assuming you knew exactly what to do, but less than 1 minute of that actually required you to be providing input to the game.
>I assume you think P&P has no interactivity as well, because you just throw the dice sometimes?
this is a stupid comparison. in a tabletop game all you do is interact with the other people at the table. this is more like if your dungeon master made you push your miniatures across the table every time you wanted to move at a real time rate of 1 grid square every 6 seconds.
>>338054119
>everyone knows VN's aren't video games, take that shit back to /jp/
>OMG, PST IS MY FAVORITE GAME OF ALL TIME! IT HAS SUCH STUNNING GAMEPLAY AS: TALK TO PERSON AND UPDATE JOURNAL! NO, IT'S NOT A VN, I BET YOU JUST PLAY COD ALL DAY!
Mask of the Betrayer
>>338073089
Know how to spot good writers for video games? They usually wrote roleplaying books at some point in their life.
>>338072231
>What makes Torment remarkable is NOT the story.
How is it not?
>Torment managed to seamlessly involve player stats and player decisions into the narrative. Depending on his build, the player will have different ways of solving certain things
Bullshit. You get extra dialogue only if you have high int or charisma
What made planescape great are the story and how its ingrained in every aspect of the game
Everything is related and have something to do with you, you are redicosvering what thousands of incarnation built leading to that point
All the characters knew you and were related to you, as you progressed you were finding out more, you shaped the world
its one of the few games where the story and lore are actually represented in the game
The writing is also pretty important, it alongside the artstyle had to convey what was happening through the game since characters can't gesticulate and only the main quest is voiced
>>338073184
sadly yes
I dont dig the setting, the combat nor the aesthetics. The writing isnt good either
It seems kinda of a mess
>>338074005
Or they have a doctorate, major in literature or went to any non-meme college/degree
>>338074114
> You get extra dialogue only if you have high int or charisma
even that is an overstatement. 90% of the stat based dialogue can be gotten just by having high wisdom. alignment only matters like 3 times in the entire game.
you're also seriously overrating the plot development. it's presented as a sort of mystery story, but it competely fails at that by having everything spelled out to you by npcs. you just go from one character to the next and they explain everything to you without having to figure out anything yourself. the one time where you wouldn't know where to go next the game throws a deus ex machina npc at you to put you back on your rails.
>>338073009
>writers like Abercrombie, Scott Lynch, Gene Wolfe, GRRM, Ericson etc make it look like fanfiction
Damn how can someone really believe this? Even the "great" fantasy writers pale in comparison, especially shit like GRRM and Ericsson.
I advice you to replay the game and maybe pay more attention because you've clearly missed something.
>>338074005
>blizzard creates its stories through a spreadsheet metzen jots down and gives to "creative" ie a committee of nerds
>they give it to their helpers
>you get WoW quests
>They could afford to hire a truly great writer for a unified vision but do not
>>338074114
>All this gushing
Give me a fucking break, have you ever read a real book before? Its bland fantasy that your average DM is able to surpass nightly.
>>338057306
are you saying GTA is more of an RPG than Deus Ex?
please fuck off
>>338073692
>Much opinion.
>>338074114
>You get extra dialogue only if you have high int or charisma
But that is wrong. Not only does dex and str also get their own options on dialog (though not as frequently), you also have options based on class/skills and often different stats can lead into the same option (for instance, a certain dialogue option could require either 17 wis or 15 int), meaning that you don't have to level all of the "mental" stats.
also, don't forget that building a high str character and just murdering people as you do in any RPG is ALSO an option, as is using thief skills to solve things. You might not get as much experience for it, but how does this matter when your character is already so powerful in combat to begin with?
>>338073184
I think it screwed itself over by calling itself a "spirtual succesor" to Torment, as that means we will have to compare it to the original. What I have seen so far doesn't seem that interesting, but I might give it a chance.
>>338074651
WHAT CAN CHANGE THE NATURE OF A MAN? SO PENETRATING!! SO BRAVE!! WHAT GREAT WRITING
>>338074819
OK pleb.
>>338057306
This shit about Witcher 3 is still baffling me everyday. Where EXACTLY is Role Playing aspect in that game? I am obliged to be a grey dude with two swords.
>>338074678
>? Its bland fantasy
how is it bland fantasy?
>All this gushing
Not an argument
>have you ever read a real book before?
>personal attack
Someone's desperate
>>338074917
>But that is wrong. Not only does dex and str also get their own options on dialog (though not as frequently), you also have options based on class/skills and often different stats can lead into the same option
There are barely any skill checks outside of int wisdom and charisma. You can count the rest with the fingers of your hands
>>338073692
>but fantasy is a shit genre
>except for Tolkien, Ishiguro's latest, Eric Rücker Eddison, and maybe Ursula Le Guin
Are you me? Literally never voiced this opinion anywhere because too scared.
>>338074942
By calling rundom Game of Shitrones good you disregarded your opinion long time ago.
Erickson isn't that bad but his series are way too long. I prefer Cook and his first three tomes of Black Company.
Wolfe - here we agree. Suns series is just pure fucking genius.
>>338074942
>WHAT CAN CHANGE THE NATURE OF A MAN? SO PENETRATING!! SO BRAVE!! WHAT GREAT WRITING
Did you play the game?
They are asking him why did he decide to become immortal
Fuck you people don't shit on the witcher it's a great franchise and the best current running RPG series to be sure.
But FUCK is planescape torment good. Like that other guy said. I only finished this a couple of years ago for the first time. And WOW how is it possible that no other game came close in choice&consequence?
I feel like this is the way gaming should have gone into. Giving more and more player responsibility and weight to your choices. Instead this was the fucking pinnacle of RPG and we are left to rot.
I still have some hope left since it seems like the worst of the dumbing down of games were in the years 2009-2013 and we're now actually slowly improving. With series like the witcher bringing more quality to the table.
>>338075570
>And WOW how is it possible that no other game came close in choice&consequence?
Age of Decadence beats it hands down.
>>338075151
>There are barely any skill checks outside of int wisdom and charisma. You can count the rest with the fingers of your hands
There is a lot less of them, that's true.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/187975-planescape-torment/46571716
>So I'd been looking into just how high TNO's INT has to be until it's no longer relevant. And in the process of going through PS:T's dialogue files, I ended up taking a look at some other stats as well. For curiosity's sake, below is the number of times a check to see whether a given stat exceeds a given number occurs in PS:T's dialogue files, for each stat. Keep in mind, these are duplicated in more than one way, as this includes all conversation trees (including mutually exclusive ones), and all instances of more than one stat (e.g., either WIS or INT) triggering the same event. It does not include checks to see if a stat is lower than a given number.
>Wis: 263
>Int: 597
>Cha: 452
>Str: 81
>Dex: 90
>Con: 9
>>338066212
compare these two quotes from mgs2 and planescape. one ties in to the central themes of the game and even correctly predicted social media hugboxes years before twitter even existed. the other is some guy acting like a pretentious cunt who gives you +1 wisdom for listening to.
>>338075832
I also finished that one. Liked it a lot especially merchant route. But I don't think it can stand in the shadow of planescape.
I feel like if they actually had a budget to flesh the game out some more they could've. But currently that's not the case. age of decadence also feels a lot shorter than planescape to me. But that could just be because there is significant less combat and sidequests in the game.
>>338076104
are you trying to prove my point or something?
>>338076349
No, I'm showing that while there is a lot less of those checks, the number is certainly higher than 10.
You are missing out if you never did a STR/DEX/CON playthrough.
>>338076121
I don't see your point
So does the quality of the writing depends on how many future occurrences they can predict?
>>338076480
Not really the dialogues are the only thing that matter, most STR and Dex rolls are just other alternative to combat, they don't allow you to do more
>>338064512
>KYS
Shouldn't you be doing your homework young man? You can post your hilarious eceleb memes on 4chan and Youtube comment sections later!
>>338076480
People also seem to forget that TNO gains a LOT of stat points, so you are not entirely bound to the stats you choose at the beginning and can eventually make a character that is good at everything.
My first character was an intelecual fighter, it was great.
>>338074114
>How is it not?
Because the story isn't all that special. I didn't found it amazing at the time it came out and I didn't find it amazing now either. What made Torment amazing to me was the amount of depth you could put into characterising your player character through the massive amount of dialogue options.
>Bullshit. You get extra dialogue only if you have high int or charisma
I don't know if you've played Torment when it came out, but back then such modifiers were far from the norm - they still aren't. Also, you're ignoring Wisdom, which was really important in Torment too. I'm fairly certain there were a bunch of STR and DEX checks in there too. Also, stats didn't just affect the choices but also the information (and experience) you were given, e.g. from encountering certain NPCs or seeing certain things in the world.
>The writing is also pretty important, it alongside the artstyle had to convey what was happening through the game since characters can't gesticulate and only the main quest is voiced
This on the other hand is something I eagerly admit: Torment made good use of written text in the sense of conveying information. Game makers nowadays are too stuck in that film school mantra of show-don't-tell which doesn't work for plenty of games if you're lacking the visual quality - not to mention that it clashes with the interactivity of the medium where you can't ascertain that the player will see things from a certain angle.
This too is more a mechanical aspect rather than a qualitative aspect. The descriptions are vivid, and I hold them in high regard, but I still don't think the quality of them sets the game apart rather than the mechanical use itself.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying Torment had bad writing, I just want to get away from that internet intellectual type of meaningless talk where people wank over their great taste in literature without saying anything and down to hard quantifiable facts.
>>338076848
>Because the story isn't all that special. I
Not special how?
>I don't know if you've played Torment when it came out, but back then such modifiers were far from the norm - they still aren't. Also, you're ignoring Wisdom, which was really important in Torment too. I'm fairly certain there were a bunch of STR and DEX checks in there too. Also, stats didn't just affect the choices but also the information (and experience) you were given, e.g. from encountering certain NPCs or seeing certain things in the world
Kek you are so retarded you didn't even read the thread
>, but I still don't think the quality of them sets the game apart rather than the mechanical use itself.
>games are only the combat
>Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying Torment had bad writing, I just want to get away from that internet intellectual type of meaningless talk where people wank over their great taste in literature without saying anything and down to hard quantifiable facts.
>don't get me wrong, i agree with you but i dont
>still no arguments
you are so shit at what you are doing
You didn't even play the game
Baldur's Gate was a better game. It was more user-friendly and lead to a larger modding community, making it playable to this game.
Torment was an amazing philosophical journey, but the problem is it can be impossible to finish if you screw up at multiple points, especially at the beginning when assigning stats. 40+ hours of dialogue to sift through only to get royally fucked? That's not 'hardcore' it's bad game design.
With that said, idiots should give it a chance. Despite its flaws, it's a marvel for its time and the literature is an under appreciated positive contribution to society.
>>338076691
the quality of the writing depends on how well themes are presented and developed. the metal gear series my only be on the level of a bad tom clancy novel, but it lays out its themes and has characters and actions that reinforce them. I can't even tell you what the themes of planescape are. the concept of torment was brought up like twice and then completely forgotten. the whole "nature of a man" thing is completely nebulous, and in the end it's all thrown aside for some stupid "belief = magic" garbage. not even in an ideological sense, it's literally saying that in their world if you believe someone is on fire he might actually ignire.
>>338076691
>most STR and Dex rolls are just other alternative to combat, they don't allow you to do more
No?
There is a DEX/STR check to make the guard at the Buried Village let you back in without the Bronze Sphere.
Various DEX checks to catch thieves trying to steal from you and get info out of them/make them teach a few tricks.
Various STR checks with Vhalior if you have lawful aligment that result in axe training.
DEX check to train with Anna.
DEX check to poison the ale of that woman pretending to be one of the Dustmen
And while there is alot of checks that do allow you to skip combat, this is exactly what INT/WIS/CHA checks do all the time as well.
>>338077121
>Not special how?
Not special in the sense that you can find plenty of people on the internet who will tell you that Final Fantasy XYZ is the greatest title ever because the plot is so memorable and they're just as right as you are in praising Torment.
It is pointless to argue about it when there are other things that Torment did right - and better than other games at the time.
>games are only the combat
Who said that? You're chasing after bogeymen that only exist in your head.
Dialogue based role playing is the core of gameplay in Torment.
>still no arguments
I have presented you arguments: I consider debating the quality of writing a tedious exercise where nothing is gained. Rather than debating how well Torment is written, people should debate what set Torment apart mechanically from other games. People who say Torment is great because it's well written are the same types of retards who call it a VN because Torment has more than just 'great writing' (which is very easily dismissed as a point of view issue). Hard facts on the other hand, a quantification of dialogue checks for example you see in >>338076104, that is something that is not up to debate.
>>338077368
Belief is the whole foundation of the Planescape setting so the fact that you saw it as some kind of "twist" at the very end says a lot about how closely you paid attention.
Personally, I think Torment had a good story because it was YOUR story. If it were a book it wouldn't be anything groundbreaking, but the way that everything in it is so thematically focused, how all seems to be about shaping out your character, and how personal the whole experience feels made it great. I don't want to sound pedantic, but i think this game was good because of how well it used its own medium. Which is funny, considering how many people in this thread seems to think that this game was "just like a book, lol xD"
>>338076316
>But I don't think it can stand in the shadow of planescape
That's up to opinion.
What's not up to opinion is that AoD handles roleplaying way better, it's probably the best RPG in terms of roleplaying options, branching paths and choices&consequences, this is a fact. Writing/story/etc are a different matter.
> age of decadence also feels a lot shorter than planescape to me. But that could just be because there is significant less combat and sidequests in the game.
I would say AoD is wide rather than long.
And by wide I mean that while every playthrough will be relatively short, there are literally dozens of distinct wayst o play the game.
>>338078079
This.
>>338077368
>the quality of the writing depends on how well themes are presented and developed.
So planescape torment is 100000 times better than MGS which only uses cutscenes
>what the themes of planescape are.
Of course because you didn't play the game
>the concept of torment was brought up like twice and then completely forgotten.
are you retarded? The MC was going to be sent to fight the blood war forever or until dead, all characters the PC knows are in torment as they are bound to him in some way, one guy is a slave, Deionarra is stuck at the fortress, Morte is responsible for him dying, Fall for grace is slave to her nature of a sucubbus despite she tries to do the opposite and so on, there are companions from previous lives that are literally the final area
> the whole "nature of a man" thing is completely nebulous
no it isnt. he became immortal to attune his past but every time he died he was reborn with a different personality, when they ask him in hte game, they are asking why did he become immortal to know whats the personality and character of the current incarnation
>some stupid "belief = magic" garbage
Belief feeds with energy the plane gods live its not magic.
>>338077524
Exactly things that don't mater that let you bypass the game, not EXTRA content
>>338077823
>Not special in the sense that you can find plenty of people on the internet who will tell you that Final Fantasy XYZ is the greatest title ever because the plot is so memorable and they're just as right as you are in praising Torment.
>Not special because people like other games
Not an argument
>Dialogue based role playing is the core of gameplay in Torment.
kek, not exactly, if that was the case the game would be a visual novel. You don't even know anything about video games
>I have presented you arguments:
no you didnt
and you haven't provided a single argument
you know absolutely nothing about the game
>See what you mocked me for
Are you mentally challenged?
>>338078079
>Personally, I think Torment had a good story because it was YOUR story.
No it wasn't
you could define the character personality and ideology but the game was pretty dead set on every outcome, you were the nameless one period
>>338078405
Can you not be so buttblasted, you two got good dialogue going don't derail it with retard, u know nothing and other shit.
>>338078405
>Exactly things that don't mater that let you bypass the game, not EXTRA content
What?
>here is a DEX/STR check to make the guard at the Buried Village let you back in without the Bronze Sphere.
Extra dialogue, no skipped combat.
>Various DEX checks to catch thieves trying to steal from you and get info out of them/make them teach a few tricks.
A LOT of extra dialogue, no skipped combat.
>Various STR checks with Vhalior if you have lawful aligment that result in axe training.
Extra dialogue, extra skills, no skipped combat
>DEX check to train with Anna
Extra dialogue, extra skills, no skipped combat
>DEX check to poison the ale of that woman pretending to be one of the Dustmen
Alternative way of solving a quest, more dialogue, more money, no skipped combat
Why do you even feel like you have a right to talk about the options that STR/DEX/CON give you? You clearly never made a STR/DEX/CON run. You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
>>338078547
>you were the nameless one period
oh you got me there
man, if only there was a way to make it so the Nameless One could be whoever you wanted him to be. Like, if the TNO you were playing as could be an entirely different person from the ones that came before himbut how can you change the nature of a man?
>>338075053
This shit about Deus Ex is still baffling me everyday. Where EXACTLY is Role Playing aspect in that game? I am obliged to be a trenchcoat with a GEP gun.
>>338078405
>Not an argument
Of course that is an argument because there are no objective standards to the quality of writing.
>if that was the case the game would be a visual novel.
No, it would not because even if you stripped all the walking and combat from Torment it would still involve stats and skills, which easily sets it apart from VNs. Not to mention that the mechanic of choice is used completely different in VNs. In VNs, the choice does not serve the purpose of helping you define the personality of the player character but to navigate within a branched narrative. The difference between a choice and a role playing choice is that the latter reflects upon your character most of all, with the in-world consequence being secondary. In a VN it's the exact other way around - the choice serves the purpose of setting the rails - very often indirectly in the sense of the consequence not even being tied to the choice the player made.
The point remains: the meat of the gameplay in Torment is the interactive dialogue - it's one of the things which set it apart from other games of the time; in fact it was among the first to focus on that aspect.
>and you haven't provided a single argument
I have. You just need to read the post I've written.
>See what you mocked me for
You're talking to two different people here. I'm not the only one who disagrees with you.
>>338078829
>Extra dialogue, no skipped combat.
Extra tiny dialogue that doesn't let you more in game
>Why do you even feel like you have a right to talk about the options that STR/DEX/CON give you? You clearly never made a STR/DEX/CON run. You have literally no idea what you are talking about.
>content you can only see with INT WIS CHA vs minor stuff that leads to same outcomes and some stats
>>338078547
>you could define the character personality and ideology
You were handed a role by the plot but it was up to you to interpret that role. How the Nameless One turned out, which type of incarnation he followed or whether he ended up someone completely different was up to you.
The Nameless One was completely yours, in that regard it was your story.
>>338079254
>Extra tiny dialogue
It's still extra content.
>that doesn't let you more in game
What is that even supposed to mean? It lets you resolve various situation in a different way and get into entirely new situations.dialogues.
>content you can only see with INT WIS CHA vs minor stuff that leads to same outcomes and some stats
Well shit, there is content that you won't see without STR/DEX/CON either.
I did both INT/WIS/CHA and STR/DEX/CON playthroughs and thanks to that I got more content out of the game.
No one is arguing that INt/WIS/CHA has more checks and content, that's why you do both.
>>338079106
I don't think Deus Ex is that great of an RPG and in the past it wasn't even considered an RPG more than it was considered an FPS.
Deus Ex has some great aspects - most of all reactivity - which would enrich any RPG if they were part of it. The game dynamically tracks certain choices you make in the game and provides in-game consequences to them. For example whether you kill the terrorists or knock them out, whether you kill certain NPCs at certain points, and so on.
However, in terms of role playing choice, allowing the player to define the personality of his character, the game is pretty weak. JC is very defined in certain regards and frequently speaks without the player even being asked for input. Certain important choices (attempting to save Paul, leaving UNATCO) are made for the player with the player having no input.
People often get mad when I mention this - despite Deus Ex being one of my favourite games of all time - I just don't think that it's that great when judged purely as an RPG.
>>338079160
>Of course that is an argument because there are no objective standards to the quality of writing.
>They are not arguments because things unrelated to the discussion that are backed by nothing
What
>No, it would not because even if you stripped all the walking and combat from Torment it would still involve stats and skills, which easily sets it apart from VNs.
So you don't know shit about Planescape but also don't know shit about visual novels
Like, do you even check before writing retarded shit? There are tons of types of visual novels yet they are all visual novels
>. The difference between a choice and a role playing choice is that the latter reflects upon your character most of all,
Very little RPGS have consequences that matter. Why do you even keep replying?
>I have. You just need to read the post I've written.
>no because no
>no because unrelated stuff
>no because no again
what?
>You're talking to two different people here. I'm not the only one who disagrees with you.
did you already forget what you wrote?
>>338079382
no ,its the story of the nameless one which was already dead set. The roleplay part came down to how you traversed it but not much else
are you retarded?
>>338054119
Making multi pathed RPGs today is impossible. The fact that every path must be animated and voiced alone is a nightmare. Especially since not 100% of players would even see those cutscenes. That's why I'm impressed with Witcher 2 with a THIRD of the game being optional. But remaking Planescape Torment to today's standard would not be worth it money wise. It would cost at least 3 games to make in animations and VO by itself.
The price of graphics and VO is linearity, look at Fallout 4.
>It's not the future we wanted, but it's the one we chose, and one we deserve.
>>338078405
>they are asking why did he become immortal
that's not what they were asking at all, and even if you use the bronze sphere you don't actually find out. what is the nature of a man? when the nameless one wakes up without his memories how come he can remember how to talk and how to read, but his morality is reset to neutral? if we assume that nature is innate then how can his incarnations end up with different alignments? if you assume that it's learned then every decision you make is metagaming since the nameless one wouldn't actually have any moral compass to follow.
The major difference (and problem) with modern RPG's for me is that old-fashioned RPG's make you actively use your fantasy, because they are written and have worse graphics.
It's basically like playing an awesome interactive book. For me, no modern game will ever match this experience.
>>338080396
> if we assume that nature is innate then how can his incarnations end up with different alignments? if you assume that it's learned then every decision you make is metagaming since the nameless one wouldn't actually have any moral compass to follow.
His mortality zapped his memory and returned him to the mortuary, we don't know nor does he
why did you cut this part?
>to know whats the personality and character of the current incarnation
>>338079160
>muh roleplaying
you can't roleplay for shit in planescape. if you had a friend watch you play he wouldn't have any idea what kind of character you were trying to be. he probably wouldn't even be able to guess your alignment just from reading your dialogue.
>>338054119
it wasnt the best of its time and certainly it isn't now
that must be one of the most overrated games ever, i'd even go as far to call it the ff7 of western rpg
>>338054119
>that game is now older than me
jesus christ why does time passes so quickly
>>338079991
>What
I can only repeat: you're free to argue with Final Fantasy fans over which story was the most memorable and how well written certain things are. Invite people from /lit/ over, have a circlejerk for all I care.
I maintain the position that there are no objective standards to the quality of writing and in that regard debating writing quality is something utterly tedious which comes down to personal taste more than actual facts.
If you want to contest this point of view you better come up with some actual arguments for why I'm wrong. Otherwise, I propose we deal with actual facts.
>So you don't know shit about Planescape but also don't know shit about visual novels
You keep saying that but I see very little on your side to back that up. I have played quite a few VNs in my time and none I've played involve the mechanical aspects I've mentioned. Even more dating-sim-esque titles, such as Amagami.
>Like, do you even check before writing retarded shit? There are tons of types of visual novels yet they are all visual novels
I can only recommend you to heed your own advice. How about you come up with some examples? Which VN involves a comparable depth to the dialogue as Torment and makes use of the dialogue mechanic in a similar manner? You're eager to attribute others with supposedly not knowing what they're talking about but I see surprisingly little content in your posts. So stop talking out of your ass and bring some meat to the table.
>Very little RPGS have consequences that matter.
Very many RPGs have consequences 'that matter'. Most of them matter locally rather than globally in regards to the plot, but they matter nonetheless.
>did you already forget what you wrote?
I've already told you that you're talking to two different people. The post I told you to look at was not one of mine. I know which ones are mine, they're marked with (You).
>>338080791
>you can't roleplay for shit in planescape. if you had a friend watch you play he wouldn't have any idea what kind of character you were trying to be.
You can bet that your friends in your pen & paper sessions had a difficult time assessing your character's personality from your actions alone too, because most of your motivation remains hidden inside your head. Playing RPGs is masturbation, whether you do it alone or with friends.
And 'can't role play for shit' is utterly meaningless when Torment does a better job than most other computer RPGs.
>>338080142
Chris Avellone was talking about the problems that voice acting would bring into game design even then. There have been many good fully voice acted games, don't get me wrong, especially if the main character isn't voiced (Bloodlines is a good example IMO), but it really limits creativity and makes everything much more expensive. I also think graphical improvements did the same, as the rich descriptions in Torment are much more interesting to me than anything a game like Witcher 3 was able to show. Unfortunately, I think it is too late to go back now.
>>338079991
>its the story of the nameless one which was already dead set. The roleplay part came down to how you traversed it but not much else
So, every RPG ever, then? even in P&P you are following the story and setting the DM gives you.
>>338079991
>The roleplay part came down to how you traversed it
That is what role playing is about.
It's not the destination that matters, it's the voyage.
>>338080547
>It's basically like playing an awesome interactive book
I feel like this as well. For me it's the perfect ratio of interactivity/immersion and using you imagination.
While books offer more ways to use your imagination and better graphics/animations might be more immersive, they both lack the quality of one another.
>>338081029
That's not how time works Anon.
>>338081058
>i have no arguments ,FF something
>I refuse to give any arguments because reasons
>You keep saying that but I see very little on your side to back that up. I have played quite a few VNs in my time and none I've played involve the mechanical aspects I've mentioned. Even more dating-sim-esque titles, such as Amagami.
Yeah right. Google fate extra or what about the circle jerk that monster girl quest
>I can only recommend you to heed your own advice. How about you come up with some examples? Which VN involves a comparable depth to the dialogue as Torment and makes use of the dialogue mechanic in a similar manner? You're eager to attribute others with supposedly not knowing what they're talking about but I see surprisingly little content in your posts. So stop talking out of your ass and bring some meat to the table.
>What visual novel has dialogue checks, literally the majority of them
>what visual novel has decision that matter, literally the all of them
When are you going to stop posting and making yourslef look retarded?
>Very many RPGs have consequences 'that matter'. Most of them matter locally rather than globally in regards to the plot, but they matter nonetheless.
No they don't retard. The vast majority of the quests in all RPGs have the same out come, the only ones that don't more often than not are part of the main quest chain. The only game where almost everything matters is TW1.
The vast majority of all decisions always matter in VNs
>I've already told you that you're talking to two different people. The post I told you to look at was not one of mine. I know which ones are mine, they're marked with (You).
aren't you?
>>338077823
The writing is the exact same
2 people my ass
>>338081360
>So, every RPG ever, then?
You do not define the character in any way, everything but the justifications of his acts is already set. Im not agains this approach cause the games that are completely open end up being really bland
>>338054119
>Planescape Torment
>>>/lit/
>>338082401
lol such originla meme frind xD so funny
>>338082518
thanks friend, i appreciate the (You)
>>338054119
>what is JA2 1.13
>>338079106
>>338074776
>GEP gun
>or non lethal
>or pistols
>or assault rifles
>or melee
>>338075570
>Fuck you people don't shit on the witcher it's a great franchise and the best current running RPG series to be sure.
It's not even an RPG and Elder Scrolls is still a better running RPG series despite being watered down trash.
>>338054119
I agree no other RPG comes close to being the most overrated game of all time. The systems in Torment are absolute garbage.
>get 25 wisdom and 25 int
>game absolutely broken from your crazy ass spell casting and god like deduction powers
is there any reason to play anything other than a mage?
>>338082239
>Yeah right. Google fate extra or what about the circle jerk that monster girl quest
So Fate Extra and Monster Girl quest involves dialogue that is modified by stats/skill modifiers of the player character? The choices serve the purpose of characterising the player character's personality? You're talking straight out of your ass.
>What visual novel has dialogue checks, literally the majority of them
Wrong. Keep in mind that a dialogue check refers to character stats. Most VNs don't even have character stats.
>what visual novel has decision that matter, literally the all of them
Again: read what I wrote. The nature of choices in VNs and RPGs is fundamentally different in the sense that the former involve choice purely for the purpose of setting the rails of the plot while the latter involve choice for the purpose of helping the player define his character's personality.
>The vast majority of the quests in all RPGs have the same out come
It depends on what you mean by 'all RPGs'. If we're talking about games like Torment, Fallout, Arcanum, Bloodlines, or even Baldur's Gate 2, then you're wrong. I've already told you about choices that have 'local' and 'global' consequences in regards to the plot. Most quests don't have consequences that affect the overall outcome of the game but most quests have consequences for the NPCs involved and their immediate vicinity, possibly affecting the outcome for certain locations, e.g. in the sense of ending slides like in Fallout, Arcanum, etc.
>aren't you?
>>>338077823 (You)
That's me, but the post I referred to in that post wasn't mine. Overall, you're arguing with two people in that post - or at least you did, assuming the other guy didn't grow tired of your retardation coupled with impertinence.
>Time is not your enemy. Forever is.
>>338084887
>>338085027
Literally the best.
>>338084887
>>338085027
Grace... I...
>>338055328
>Today's gamers are too casual for it
>too casual for a visual novel with abysmal gameplay
Oh come on. That UI and combat was so abysmal I couldn't suffer it for more than a few hours, after which I simply couldn't continue. I actually had to export the text and read it in txt to get some enjoyment out of this piece of shit.
Just a retarded waifu simulator like Bioware games. HAHA SPUNKY DEMON WAIFU
HAHA MADONNA WHORE WAIFU
HAHA PURE MAIDEN WAIFU
etc.
>>338086293
>I actually had to export the text and read it in txt to get some enjoyment out of this piece of shit.
Exactly what I did, except I was smart enough to downloadeded the book.
>>338086325
>Not Morte waifu.
Scurl yourself, chief. Update your journal.
>>338086443
Wait, the book was good? I was so traumatized by the Baldur's Gate novelization I didn't even look into it.
>>338081243
>You can bet that your friends in your pen & paper sessions had a difficult time assessing your character's personality
maybe if you're all autistic. you can tell if someone is gloomy or cheerful or serious or comical just after a few minutes of interaction.
>>338073403
>first three companions look absolutely disgusting
>art is unbereably bad
>old dude with punk hair
>pink haired... lady? Is that a woman?
>le smiling black guy
ToN confirmed as shit
>>338086293
>Today's gamers are too casual for it
>"OH COME ON, THAT'S NOT TRUE *proceeds to explain how he was too casual for it*"
Wew lads
>>338086541
>you can tell if someone is gloomy or cheerful or serious or comical just after a few minutes of interaction.
That's why I said:
>from your actions alone
>>338086868
>le smiling black guy
Nigga, it's literally Lando Calrissian. Like, it's actually traced from a Lando screenshot.
>>338086868
It kinda bothers me that they and the main character are all normal-looking humans. Torment made a big point of making itself different from other RPGs, and the companions were a huge part of that. Setting seems kind of bland too, but I know nothing about Numenera to really judge it.
>>338054119
Spoken dialogue and realistic graphics. Its not feasible to act out that much dialogue with modern graphics.
>>338087009
You are retarded if you think refusing to put up with terrible gameplay has anything to do with being a casual. Otherwise only the most hardcore of rpg fans would play Bethesda games.
>it's a non Chaotic Evil Succubus
>it's not only non evil but also non chaotic, in fact completely opposed in that axis
Literal special snowflake tier
>>338087452
Gameplay is fine, combat is mediocre like 99% of RPGs but the dialogue, roleplaying ability, choices/consequences are unmatched to this day.
see >>338072231
>>338054119
Mask of the Betrayer and Witcher 1, and ONLY Witcher 1, not the shit sequels came close to it, but once Skyrim came out the RPG genre died pretty much died. Everybody just wants more Skyrim clones and more Pleb Souls.
>>338088401
>Witcher 1
>even remotely good
>pre determined morality/build
>even remotely an RPG
Lmao'ing at your life right now senpai
>>338088401
>mfw people masturbate over Dark Souls """""""""""""""""""""""lore""""""""""""""""""""
>>338088081
>you will never have Fall-from-Grace wrap her wings around you
>>338088081
She's the equivalent of edgelords in demon society.
>>338054119
Your nostalgia, that game is shit
>>338088081
Did you miss on a part where PS:T deliberately makes fun of all things DnD, ESPECIALLY alignments?
>>338088235
Gameplay outside combat is like a point and click adventure, except the isometric perspective is rarely used in pncs, and for a reason. That UI has to be one of the worst I've ever seen, unintuitive, and everything takes way too long. How they even came up with it when the BG UI was perfectly serviceable is a total mystery to me.
>roleplaying ability, choices/consequences are unmatched to this day
Age of Decadence far surpassed Torment in these two aspects. And surprise, surprise, most call it a CYOA masquerading as an rpg. And AoD actually had a pretty decent combat system to boot.
Also, from what I remember Arcanum too had better c&c.
You are right about the dialogue, however. It's the kind of thing that can only be achieved when a single writer pours everything he has into it, without others having much of a say. Most rpgs keep several writers to keep a manageable schedule, which is understandable, but also a shame.
>>338088739
Her character is mostly 99.99% impossible. She is literally made out of objective evil and chaos
It would be one thing to have her as CN, but LN really is pushing it far.I actually love it because I greatly enjoy pissing over D&D fragile objective morality
>>338088784
I don't recall it making fun of alignments.
You do after all get a ton of points for the most mundane shit ever like lie once and get chaos points
>>338088969
>Gameplay outside combat is like a point and click adventure,
Except it's not. Go play the game and stop shitposting
>>338088081
Almost everything in PST is the opposite than they should be. The game loved to break rules and conventions. It's why Final Fantasy VIII was one of its two explicit inspirations.
May as well ask this here:
I'm playing BG2 atm and plan on using Imoen.
Should I move beyond chapter 2 asap and leave most of those quests for the return with Imoen?
>>338089141
>VIII
Wot? I know some of the spell animations were inspired by VII but how is it inspired by FFVIII?
>>338088490
>muh pointless morality
>muh this game is not an RPG cause I say so
Lmao'ing at your terrible shitposting skills.
>>338089130
Well, thanks for the great counterargument, anon. As I said I only played it for a few hours, but most of that was spent stitching up zombies, finding hidden items, and solving riddles. That's about as pnc as it gets.
>>338089340
Final Fantasy VII and VIII are both in the credits. People like to say it's just the spell animations, but the parallels go for some story tidbits as well. Such as falling unconscious and having visions, the amnesia that Cloud had just popularized, searching for identity etc.
>>338088784
>Deionarra predicted you fight aspects of good, neutrality and evil, twisted by the planes
>old hag that was supposed to be extremely evil is actually a crazy chaotic neutral person that wanted to free the Lady of Pain, and has different encarnations through the planes that are really nice and help you
>aspect of evil is a devil that was tricked and forced to act nice to you all the time
>aspect of good is a misguided angel that does fucked up things to achieve what he believes is right
this game is genius, senpai
>>338089032
I think her LN alignment related to her great effort to deny her nature and become something else. She doesn't act very lawful otherwise except for being "prim and proper".
One character whose alignment I don't agree with is Nordom, though. Even if he was a "rogue" mordron, he still saw the planes in a very logical, ordely, and lawful way.
>>338089340
>>338089749
Oh and the VIII is about breaking the conventions. FFVIII had a lot of assbackwards design decisions. It was really out there as well.
>>338089505
You never provided an argument, you made a blanket statement and false comparison without explaining why you felt that way and you even confessed to only playing a few hours.
You're a waste of time and space anon, just leave this thread
>>338087060
and what does that have to do with the fact that dialogue options in rpgs aren't enough to roleplay anything but a scizophrenic piece of cardboard?
>>338073009
>GRRM
>Fantasy
God, you got me there baitman
>>338090868
Most of the role playing takes place in your head either way. The evaluation of why a certain choice is made by your character is done inside your head. If your character appears schizophrenic, then it's because you made schizophrenic choices.
Only in modern titles like Mass Effect this is a more serious issue. In older titles you usually have quite a bit of room for interpretation.
>>338054119
The story, characters, atmosphere and world were all good but the rest was lacking. It would have been better as a point and click adventure game were it's strong points could be put front and centre. The RPG elements don't add a lot considering certain stats are necessary to enjoy the strongest points of the game. The combat isn't terrible but isn't really great ether and doesn't add much to the story itself, mostly it's just a chore between neat story bits. The best thing about the combat is that with the right build you can skip a lot of it, which isn't a promising mark for the game as a whole.
It's a decent CYOA stapled to a mediocre video game.
It has a great elements but that doesn't make it good as a whole.
>>338089032
I know it's a really late reply, but what game is this?
>>338092285
Neverwinter Nights 2
moded to play as a skeltal, of course.
>Dak'kon story
>Morte story
I needn't all these feels
"The sphere wrinkles in your hands, the skin of the sphere peeling away into tears and turning into a rain of bronze that encircles you. Each droplet, each fragment that enters you, you feel a new memory stirring, a lost love, a forgotten pain, an ache of loss - and with it, comes the great pressure of regret, regret of careless actions, the regret of suffering, regret of war, regret of death, and you feel your mind begin buckling from the pressure - so MUCH, all at once, so much damage done to others... so much so an entire FORTRESS may be built from such pain. And suddenly, through the torrent of regrets, you feel the first incarnation again. His hand, invisible and weightless, is upon your shoulder, steadying you. He doesn't speak, but with his touch, you suddenly remember your name... and it is such a simple thing, not at all what you thought it might be, and you feel yourself suddenly comforted. In knowing your name, your true name, you know that you have gained back perhaps the most important part of yourself. In knowing your name, you know yourself, and you know, now, there is very little you cannot do."
Torment/10
>>338092914
This part hit me so hard. And then the confrontation with Trancendent One hit me harder.
I don't think I have ever related so much to a character as I have to TNO.
>>338054119
Is this the thread where we pretend that Torment, while being as mechanically deep as your average visual novel, doesn't fall apart after you leave Ravel's garden?
I want a fucking sequel
Not that tumblr-inspired kickstarter homosex they're making right now
We have to go back to Sigil, Kate
>>338090351
>talk to one guy
>walk around
>talk to another guy
>get an item
>bring it back to the first guy
literally what you do in adventure games.
>>338093118
Nameless One: Have you forgotten the face of your father, Trias?
Trias: What? [And his mask of aching, divine beauty slips, consternation rolls across his features and you can glimpse the torment within, if only for a moment.]
>this
>>338093746
Literally what you do in any game
>>338091236
it's not roleplaying if your character isn't emoting. if you sit at the table and stare at your mountain dew the entire time you aren't doing great roleplaying just because stuff is happening in your head.
>>338093240
>tfw we'll never get a completed, 80 hour PS:T
Feels so fucking bad. Act 2 and 3 were supposed to be as long as Act 1 and involve encounters with wizards and shit.
>>338093948
It's role playing in the sense that you decide what your character says and does. The motivation behind takes place mostly in your head. In a pen & paper RPG you do the exact same thing, the only difference being that you have more opportunity to 'casually' interact. However, given the fact that it's mostly autistic retards like yourself who play these games, who - even though you might be under a different impression due to your autism - aren't particularly good actors, there really isn't that much of a difference. Fact is: role playing takes place in your head. Playing RPGs is equivalent to masturbation.
>>338054119
> muh no story driven rpgs
> doesn't bother to actually play new releases
typical
>>338092367
Thanks bud, I've only played the first NWN.
>>338094101
They should have started with making some art for those acts then.
>>338084864
Kek you waited up until i left
Extra does
In MG you can't win without raising stats
>Wrong. Keep in mind that a dialogue check refers to character stats. Most VNs don't even have character stats.
Extra does and are require for the checks
>Again: read what I wrote. The nature of choices in VNs and RPGs is fundamentally different in the sense that the former involve choice purely for the purpose of setting the rails of the plot while the latter involve choice for the purpose of helping the player define his character's personality.
Kek, the vast majority of the choices in RPGs are how to solve a quest differently, the changes are even more notable in VNs as you can have a character but your decisions influence how it behanves and how the story advances
>It depends on what you mean by 'all RPGs'. If we're talking about games like Torment, Fallout, Arcanum, Bloodlines, or even Baldur's Gate 2, then you're wrong
KEEEKK
The only non linear is arcanus
You are so stupid
>That's me, but the post I referred to in that post wasn't mine.
No, it was yours
retard
You are so shit
>>338084864
>>338096279
Both fo you are retarded.
>>338094375
>Fact is: role playing takes place in your head.
this is flat out wrong. roleplaying is how your character acts, not what you think about your character.
>>338054717
>Bloodborne
>rpg
>>338093867
Jesus Christ that scene broken me. I realized that Triad was just trying to remember again and come back to his home.
>>338092914
And that... This is Torment.
>>338089156
You can do those quests in chapter 6
>>338084782
roleplaying reasons
I like being dumb barbarians
>>338097804
>roleplaying is how your character acts, not what you think about your character.
It's both.
Your character's actions are motivated by his personality - the latter is what you define through your actions.
