So I've seen a bunch of movies and anime lately that tried to deconstruct certain genres and it made me wonder how many games there are that attempted to do the same thing.
Irregardless of how well they've done it, I know MGS2 is basically a deconstruction of how sequels work and Spec Ops was a fairly ham-fisted try to deconstruct modern military shooters. What other games fall into this category?
>>337780979
>irregardless
You're affixing the negative prefix 'ir-' to 'regardless', but, as 'regardless' is already negative, it's a logical absurdity!
Undertale
>>337780979
No other games because video games are not deep. Get your deconstruction shit outta here.
I fucking deconstructed your mom's pussy last night lmao xD
>>337780979
Bioshock was a genius deconstruction of video games as a whole. Also fuck you, Spec Ops was great.
>>337780979
Not exactly deconstruction but the new Doom does parody a few troops from modern shooters.
>>337784426
>Also fuck you, Spec Ops was great.No. It was not.
>>337780979
What was Blue Ruin a deconstruction of?
Revenge stories? That the people you are killing also have families that love them?
>>337784718
What tropes?
>>337785274
he said troops
>>337784426
>Also fuck you, Spec Ops was great.
I like it, even played it twice. But they really could've toned down the bodies and shock moments to make it less absurd.
>>337785350
Okay, so which troops then?
>>337784426
>Bioshock was a genius deconstruction of video games as a whole
Elaborate
It's whole "player was the good goy all along" thing was done years earlier in SS2
>>337785189
That and the guy it a normal dude and not charlie bronson blowing away punks with a magnum
>>337785495
the________WAN MIRRION TROOPS_____________
>>337785436
that would defeat the point
>>337785189
Yeah revenge stories, but not only that people have families. Smaller issues like how does some normal bob without resources even plan out going after an entire family or what do you do if you get wounded by something? The main character was as vulnerable as a normal person and not a movie hero would be in that situation.
>>337785518
I hear lots of people claim it's the "the game is straightforward and linear because would you kindly"
Spec Ops is only really effective if you havent yet grown out of the CoDKid phase
the game is one grand strawman argument
>>337780979
>Deconstruction
that word does not mean what you think it means
fuck off back to tvtropes
>>337785591
Is it even really good for Cod fans? The gunplay is shit, and it makes good use of set-pieces instead of being over-reliant on them.
>>337780979
>Madoka
>deconstruction
"Grimdark twist" does not make for deconstruction. It was a great anime, but it wasn't deconstructing anything.
>>337785591
all deconstructions are effective only if you're a delusional dork that thinks not following tropes instantly makes something interesting
>>337780979
The Simpsons Game, is arguably the best video game in this category and wasn't preachy about it like Spec ops or whatever Indie games
>>337780979
I want more things to do what Madoka did.
The big apocalyptic badguy was mainly background and it focused more on the characters. Like what if X-men apocalypse has apocalypse as the inevitable big bad they fight and the movie was more around Xavier and Magneto talking to each other.
>>337780979
>Irregardless
Why does that word bother me so much? It's like "irrespective" and "regardless" had a retarded child.
>>337785709
It deconstructed mahou shoujo cliches like the overly idealistic main character and how those kinds of powers would have an effect on your psyche.
>>337785692
>Full Definition of deconstruction
>2) the analytic examination of something (as a theory) often in order to reveal its inadequacy
>>337785957
Except she stayed idealistic till the end and saved the world.
>>337786092
She did but it influenced almost every other character in some way, often in a negative way untilshe became magical girl Jesus.
killer7
mgs2
eternal darkness
indigo prophecy
spec ops the line
earthbound
soul blazer
some command and conquer
and many more games have deconstructionist themes and motifs
>>337786017
as a critical analysis method, not as a writing approach
deconstruction as a term has been clung onto by fags like OP when it was cool (and I think it still is) to say you liked Madoker and Bakemonogatari because they were "deconstructions" of their respective genres on tvtropes
Using those fags' lingo, it's more accurate to say they were set to try and "subvert" as many tropes of the genre but still ended up "playing" lots of them completely straight
doing meta commentary and 4th wall breaking does not equal to avoiding the usual tools of narration in those works
>>337786763
When someone says "madoka is a deconstruction" then most people understand what that means so I don't see the problem.
>>337785553
I dunno if deconstruction is just being pedantic about specifics. To my mind a deconstruction of a revenge film would be closer to a failed revenge or a revenge that in completeion makes that persons life worse.
>>337780979
Spec Ops The Line is overrated hipstershit. In reality it's a horrible console shooter with boring sand environment.
>b-but muh war is bad
Is Kotor 2 a deconstruction of the light side dark side jedi sith mumbo jumbo?
deconstruction is a meme term and more often than not the authors themselves dont even operate within that line of thinking, its something imposed by the audience for theory wank
>>337787431
If you accept almost any psychological or philsophical advances in the 20th century you would accept the faliability of intent.
I have heard people call Game of Thrones a deconstruction since its a fantasy setting but with realistic character interactions.
>>337787431
Subversion is probably a better term but people would just cry tvtropes if you tried to use it.
>>337787653
lol? people really have no idea what they are talking about.
>>337787659
but deconstruction also comes from there, subversion is less horrible
>>337787097
Like >>337787431 touched upon, it's fanwank to make yourself sound smarter than you are and aggrandize the opinion you're trying to defend on the internet
it's pretty much a buzzword used wrong that has a much different meaning than how it's used in this thread
>>337785436
I agree, and I really like it.
>>337785543
Do you really need something to be so obvious to make its point? Its inspirations are far less overt and arguably more effective.
Video games can't really be deconstructed.
If you don't follow the formula to certain extent, it's not really a game.
>>337785957
Sailor Moon fucking cracks it and straight up offs herself. Hell, that series actually deconstructs and offers counter-point to its characters' worldviews' way more thoroughly than Madoka ever does.
>>337785767
>The big apocalyptic badguy was mainly background and it focused more on the characters.
Yeah, there are like, no other mahou shoujo that do this at all, apparently.
>>337784426
>Bioshock
What the fuck did I miss in that game? How does it deconstruct anything?
>>337781939
It's the logical absurdity that is the English language.
>deconstruction
Is there a more fedora term than this?
>>337787719
>but deconstruction also comes from there
>>337787649
I don't see how "faliability of intent" is relevant in this discussion.
We give flowers names so we can easily categorize them, but that mental process has no real bearing on the flower itself. It just is.
>>337788113
>What the fuck did I miss in that game
The plot, apparently
Madoka is pure garbage. The Donnie Darko of anime.
>>337788461
It wasted all its good characters for cheap thrills and focused way too much on the most boring characters (Homu and Madoka)
>>337788243
In all seriousness, no. It really is the most faggy almost intellectual term used by pop culture fans to prop up their pet works because they need to justify they are "better than those other, less edgy things that I'd feel insecure about liking".
>>337788461
What's wrong with Donnie Darko?
>>337788619
Nothing, it's a meme to hate the original version.
>Madoka
ayyyy lmao
>>337788594
I know I don't need to ask because it's cool to live in your little contrarian tower but do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion? Maybe a different term if it bothers you so much?
Cause I'd argue the only pseudo intellectual around is the one arguing semantics just to shit on others.
Max Payne 3 subtly did this. At one point in the story Max asks the enemy why they keep coming after him and the response he gets is "because you keep killing us!"
>>337785957
>>337788810
>do I have anything of substance to add to the discussion?
We could discuss Jacques Derrida now if you want.
>Maybe a different term if it bothers you so much?
Subversion it is then. Usually means the same thing people actually intend, but without all the pretension.
Deconstruction is an exceptionally 'fedora' term, don't deny it.
>>337781939
I sure hope you don't call this thing "an apron", Anon. Right?
>>337788430
Well
>deconstruction is a meme term and more often than not the authors themselves dont even operate within that line of thinking, its something imposed by the audience for theory wank
appears to have no understanding of critical theory or psychology from the 20th century let alone what deconstructionism is.
Let me give a very gauche example of how you would present a deconstruct of a text: In Moby Dick it is wrong to hunt whales.
Broadly speaking deconstructionism is a reconsideration of a text outside bias. So, to give a very famous example in critical theory we could look at Edward Said's Orientalism. This isn't strictly speaking deconstructionism because it is more focused but the theoretical ideas are same, they are both considered post-structualist. Anyway, Said writes about "canonical" Victorian novelists such as Jane Austen and deconstructs them. For example, he will look at Mansfield Park and explore how their lifestyle is sustained in the minor references to plantations throughout the text. To Said the emphasis of the story changes to a focus on exploitation of the other. The majority of readers, especially in Victorian times, would not have made these connections.
>We give flowers names so we can easily categorize them, but that mental process has no real bearing on the flower itself. It just is.
This is actually quite a big question and depending on your critical perspective you will have a different answer. Generally speaking, however, at least within a postmodern framework we would have to disagree with your assertion. You must remember that just because you are consciously doing something doesn't mean you're also interacting with it on a subconscious or unconscious level. Again to give an extremely unsophisicated example consider the end of the film Ratatouille. Anton, the food critic, disliked the majority of the food because it was not what his mother cooked for him as a child - but he did not know this. It is only after tasting
>>337789208
It's a deconstruction of the apron genre of clothing
>>337785521
Charles Bronson was a normal dude. Have you even watched Death Wish?
>>337789451
the problem here is that it makes the assumption of a particular bias by the reader / watcher. it doesn't work when the audience isn't retarded
>>337787649
I came into this thread just to say this:
Fuck you.
>>337789451
It is only after tasting Remy's ratatouille that he has the realistiation that the food he had been previously tasting he was comparing unfavourably with the food his mother cooked him. The implication is that after this epiphany that Aton will no longer be such a miserable and harsh critic now that he has found what it is he was unconsciously searching for through all the restaurants before.
>>337789565
Everyone has biases that cannot be completely supressed even the deconstructor this is a basic assumption.
>>337784426
I loved Spec Ops. I do see some of the thing they could of have done better with the game or improved upon, but I love that game.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/GenreDeconstruction/VideoGames
>>337781939
Why...I have a half a mind to...
>>337789451
>appears to have no understanding of critical theory or psychology from the 20th century let alone what deconstructionism is.
Considering how the term is used today within the circles we're discussing, he's not that far off. Another anon was spot on in that people conflate deconstruction with "inversion".
>Anton, the food critic, disliked the majority of the food because it was not what his mother cooked for him as a child - but he did not know this. It is only after tasting
Again this is only his mental processes that affect his perception and interaction with the food, the food itself just is. People will relate to a thing in any which way, but the thing itself always just is.
Someone can be scared of cats, or someone can love them, but either way thats just their perception of cats. In the end cats will be cats.
>>337789916
Is naming food not relating to it? There is a strong difference between naming something and that something just existing.
>>337789745
The shitters that started it all. TVTropes is the primary cause for all the pseudo-intellectualism and bullshit that plagues modern media discussion.
>>337781939S-SHIMATTA!
>>337790450
Its just like being either scared or loving cats, whichever you choose all that really changes is the quality of your interaction with the thing because of your perception. Since a cat is a living creature it will similarly interact with you based on its own perception.
But in the case of food, well, sure you've named it, but really there not much else to do beyond there but to eat the food. And your perception will influence how the rest plays out.
Wrapping this back around to media, its still our perceptions that influences how we will relate to any which work, but at the end of the day the work itself is just going to be what it is since it is fundamentally unchanging. What will only really change about it is our interpretations of it.
So when anon said that "the idea of deconstruction is largely theory wank" he's really just talking about how often most people like to sell their ideas on a work as the legitimate vision behind the work when really its only bits and pieces that their own perception managed to piece together - often using deconstruction as a sort of "padding". The work itself remains whatever its going to be, and it can be a great many things to a great many people.
>>337789451
>For example, he will look at Mansfield Park and explore how their lifestyle is sustained in the minor references to plantations throughout the text. To Said the emphasis of the story changes to a focus on exploitation of the other. The majority of readers, especially in Victorian times, would not have made these connections.
Isn't that just critical reading bullshit? I thought deconstruction was about how assuming any absolute meaning can be shown, through the text in itself in its living context, to be built on a basis that must be self contradictory on some level.
>>337791263
I think i'm going to have to go through your reply line by line because I feel like we are still talking in completely opposite directions.
>Its just like being either scared or loving cats, whichever you choose all that really changes is the quality of your interaction with the thing because of your perception. Since a cat is a living creature it will similarly interact with you based on its own perception.
Sure no disagreement here, I wonder why you bring it up when it seems irrelevent.
>But in the case of food, well, sure you've named it, but really there not much else to do beyond there but to eat the food. And your perception will influence how the rest plays out.
So we agree that naming food in an interaction which is susceptible to perception.
>Wrapping this back around to media, its still our perceptions that influences how we will relate to any which work, but at the end of the day the work itself is just going to be what it is since it is fundamentally unchanging. What will only really change about it is our interpretations of it.
Sure, again not sure how this is related to this earlier discussion.
>So when anon said that "the idea of deconstruction is largely theory wank" he's really just talking about how often most people like to sell their ideas on a work as the legitimate vision behind the work when really its only bits and pieces that their own perception managed to piece together - often using deconstruction as a sort of "padding". The work itself remains whatever its going to be, and it can be a great many things to a great many people.
I don't really know what you mean here, it just sounds like you're complaining about people who make bad art but pretend it's good. I'm sure we all lament such types. I'm not sure how you as an outsider have an authority over the "bits and pieces that their own perception managed to piece together" but whatever. It is ofcourse possible that the person who created the art has other things in mind
>>337790795
>tvtropes
>not the way they teach english in public school
>>337791483
Deconstructionism is a type of critical reading. I don't really understand the rest of your comment. If anything deconstructionism would suggest that there is no absolute meaning to any text, rather, the text in and of itself has no meaning. The meaning anyone gets from that text is the result of their values/experiences/etc colouring that text.
>People are still in denial about Umineko after all those years
This isn't a post.
>>337792206
how magritte of you
>The madoka magica of video games
>>337780979
Shadow of the Collosus
>protag is actually the bad guy
>Dormin, the supposed big bad actually keeps his promise.
>Madoka
People still think that mediocrity was any smart?
>>337791887
My point hasn't really changed since the beginning, but I'll try to be more clear. The idea is that people will throw up whatever labels they choose in order to more concretely relate with a thing in one way or another, but still those labels have no real bearing on that thing.
So someone can run around and say Evangelion is a grand deconstruction of the mech genre, and there may be much evidence to suggest it aside from any personal insight from the author, and similarly another person it can be a very striking psychological exploration. Either way, Evangelion is Evangelion.
Not even saying that the author's intention is the word of God (since many authors work by feeling rather than a set intention), although it is truly the closet thing to it.
The ultimate point is that its a mistake to think ones interpretation of a thing is set in stone, and that art really should be looked at as more of a growing experience that you can return to over and over again to experience new angles - don't just let it strangle and die in the thralls of some theoretical framework.
>>337792453
If Madoka is bad what is some actual good anime? I mean, something really good on an intellectual level.
Don't spout bullshit like Ergo Proxy or Technolyze though, please.
>>337792582
>actual good anime
>>337792439
It does deconstruct the Hero's journey, true.
I'd add Suda 51's Killer 7 as well.
I'd also like to think of MGSV as some sort of deconstruction, but I'm afraid that's pushing it.
YOU STUPID FUCKS
BLUE RUIN IS NOT A DECONSTRUCTION
IT'S A SUBVERSION
HOLY SHIT WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE USING WORDS THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND
>>337792549
I agree with you although nothing you have said has anything to do with deconstructionism. It sounds like you are just complaining about artists who misrepresent their work as a piece of deconstructionism (which is ironic when we consider that deconstructionism is not something which the author decides)
>>337792684
That's a fair point. But there are good anime out there, you just have to push aside so much shit that's not even funny. Better stuck with comedy/slice of life, at least those are not pretentious.
https://youtu.be/RQ7Fau45-5k
>>337792582
Lain
Patlabor 2
Wings of Honneamis
GitS Innocence
Memories
Legend of the Galactic Heroes
Mushishi
>>337780979
>Higurashi no naku koro ni
>Synecdoche, New York
>The Stanley parable
Here, make a better thread next time.
>>337780979
>know MGS2 is basically a deconstruction of how sequels work
just because they pulled a bait and switch with the main character does not make it a deconstruction
>>337792780
It's not a point, I just quoted you, you troglodyte.
>>337787318
>be closer to a failed revenge or a revenge that in completeion makes that persons life worse.
But isn't this exactly what Blue Ruin was about? His parents were killed by the head of the family who eventually died of cancer (pre-movie, so the cold-blooded stabfest was ultimately pointless), and the protag dies in the end while achieving nothing.
>>337792582
Jinroh
>>337792582
Texhnolyze is good, but yea Ergo Proxy has some huge fucking issues no matter how much I like it.
Cant go wrong with Evangelion, but really who hasnt seen that yet. Its a must-watch, period.desu "intellectual" shit is overrated as fuck. I've read a good number of heavy """Postmodern""" novels and honestly didnt feel like there was really much to them aside from lots of mental turning and twisting, the author playing literary solitaire for a little giggle every now an then. But then I read something simple and elegant like Musashi and find there's an entire world opening up on every page, because the story itself has enough substance to not even need playing games with the reader
>>337792856
>Lain
Good premise but fuck me is it hard to follow.
>Patlabor 2
Fuck yes, I have to rewatch it sometime
>Wings of Honneamis
I only watched it once a long time ago and I thoughtIt sucked. Forgive me.
>GitS Innocence
Random quotes: the animation. Original one was thousand times better.
>Memories
Oh. Never heard of it. Might check.
>Legend of the Galactic Heroes
Actual good show for people of fine taste
>Mushishi
Actual good show for people of fine taste.
>>337787426
No but Infamous 2 is.
>>337787097
Madoka isn't a deconstruction though, it's pretty typical for a magical girl series.
>>337792765
I wasnt really trying to argue for or against the concept of deconstructionism as you outlined, I was just sharing my own insight based on what it was we started with.
>>337793030
Not that guy, but the first segment of 'Memories' is Emmy material.
>>337793009
So you're a weaboo, is the lesson we should all learn here.
>>337792932
To be honest with you I think I mistyped slightly in that comment. I think Blue Ruin does attempt to subvert expectations just as you have described. But I don't think just making the protagonist spend a bit more time hunting for guns does.
>>337793125
I could've easily said Dune as well t b h
>>337793051
Well, I always thought that Madoka is just a normal mahou shoujo show where the premise is twisted so that the furry friends that gives you powers is also the evil guy and that he has already won. It's a pretty nice twist (that everyone saw, mind me, it's not even hidden) that makes for a pleasant story.
>>337793094
Yeah, Magnetic Rose is truely amazing, what an ending.
I tried watching Madoka. Got to ep 3 wand went "that was silly" and dropped the series because I was not hooked by ep 3
>>337793009
Best Girl.Got hard for Rei-Zeruel though in 2.22
>>337793009
Evangelion is such a shitshow though. I know there's some merit in there somewhere but it's buried beneath some of the most awful pacing and half-baked plot points I have ever seen. End of Evangelion was good but fuck the anime man.
>>337793125
Weeaboo has two E's in it.
>>337793461
I'm seeing to e's, not two E's.
>>337793030
You might like Japan's omnibus features:
Neo Tokyo
Robot Carnival (particularly Presence)
Short Peace
>>337793074
To be honest looking back over the replies I might have been a bit too hasty to bring in deconstructionism when people are just talking about deconstructing, the latter doesn't necessarily include the former and considering it is 4chan I should assume it doesn't.
I liked Madoka, but I'm not entirely sure why everyone has to over-analyze their chinese cartoons.
Can't you just like a thing for what it is?
>>337792582
Wind Rises is one of the best biopics ever made.
I don't think I will see any animation like it in decades.
>>337793094
>Emmies
>worth anything
Fucking Kung fu Panda show has an Emmy. Doesn't mean its good
>>337793321
I thought the 2 Madoka movies had better pacing and overall visuals.
They actually redid a ton of the scenes
>spec ops
>smart or good
lmaoing my ass of at ur opinions senpaino but seriously, it's not. the first game that came into mind for me was undertale, but it's more of a self-aware, meta heavy game. In the beginning, if you reaload after killing toriel it calls you out. People will disagree though because of the autistic fanbase, and also /v/ must hate everything popular.
>>337780979
Hotline Miami takes the whole idea of beat-em-ups and forces you to think about it. For example, making you walk through all the bodies to calm music forces you to really ponder your actions. And later, the game even mocks you for pretending to want a plot, and asserts that all you ever wanted was an excuse to bash virtual heads in.
Some people ITT are talking about games like BioShock, which have the player get deceived by "the voice on the radio". However I don't think that's really a deconstruction, more of a plot twist. Or at least, it's so common nowadays that it's not a meaningful deconstruction.
>>337780979
MGS2 is just a meta/4th wall trash, and the methods of the storytelling dont mean deconstruction and made nothing special for the context of the series. In the first place, how many of you guys unironically still use the death word. Its just a shitty false concept one french thinker made up and already out of date.
>>337793519
When you speak of a letter, you use it as a proper noun. Thus it is E and not e.
But the point is Weeaboo has two E's in it.
>>337793914
Nah, Spec Ops, Bioshock Infinite and Undertale are all in the same category.
>>337793945
>Some people ITT are talking about games like BioShock, which have the player get deceived by "the voice on the radio". However I don't think that's really a deconstruction, more of a plot twist.
I agreed i find everyone really focuses on the whole you are a slave part. But the morality in the game is what i enjoyed most. I also think it was a lot heavier than people realized. Murdering litter girls and their "big Daddies" was an interesting option for acquiring power.
>>337794139
Infinite and these other two are almost nothing alike m8
>>337794062
But I'm seeing two e's instead of two E's
>>337794378
In gameplay perhaps, but they're the same breed of smug, masturbatory games that make assumptions about you when you try to play them. Wrong ones, and then they try to hold it over your head. It is beyond annoying.
I just don't see the appeal.
>>337794491
>When you speak of a letter, you use it as a proper noun. Thus it is E and not e.
>>337793914
It's Tumblr: the game. It's ~actually~ Tumblr: the game.
>>337794520
No one is assuming anything, anon. You're the good guy, don't worry!
>>337786017
>>337786763
Also that's nothing even closely resembling a full definition of deconstruction.
>>337792582
I just watched Perfect Blue a few days ago and thought it was really good.
I really enjoyed Madoka, though, so who knows.
>>337794753
Undertale was an ok game with a different perspective but hardly amazing. Don't let tumblr fool you into thinking everything they say about it is real.
Frankly i am getting tired of these lazy writing games. Games like Dark souls and Undertale where interesting plot points are hidden and a large portion of the story if left for you to try and figure out or Discuss online. Which is exactly what they want. Discussing a vague ass game online is free Marketing.
>>337794991
Thanks for proving my point.
Passive aggressiveness is just pathetic, whether it is done by a game or a person.
>>337787876
>that has a much different meaning than how it's used in this thread
To be fair, while this can be annoying, at some point it's just a word with multiple meanings, rather than it needing to mean "x" instead of "y", and this is particularly true when it comes to what circle you're using it in.
>>337788619
Got too popular and the wrong people liked it.
Same thing with Madoka, so he kind of has a point.
>>337795129
>That's not REAL deconstruction
>>337795610
Well it isn't really, deconstruction by it's nature eludes definition in many ways. At least to the best of my recollection.
There have been entire books written trying to define it.
>>337795587
Calm down son. Fuck, you mad.
>>337788091
>way more thoroughly
Didn't Sailor Moon have like over 100 episodes are you talking frequency or just accumulation over time?
Like shit nigga say I watch the first 12 or 13 episodes what can I expect?
>>337795704I get you. I'm just having a little fun because the whole thread has turned into semantics and anime waffle
>>337795765
Did you mean to quote a different post?
>>337795704
To be fair in general terms deconstruction/deconstructing and deconstructionism (which you are referring to) are different things. Considering the ubiquity of deconstructionism in critical discourse, among academics or students, references to deconstruction or deconstructing usually refer to deconstructionism. However, in a non academic space such as 4chan we are probably better off supposing that when someone says deconstruction or deconstructing they are not doing so with deconstructionism in mind.
>>337780979
>Deconstruction
meme word
>>337795832
cool beans.
Though attempting to stop people using language grossly incorrectly is worthy of the time spent making the posts.
After many moons people finally stopped using objectively so willy nilly.
>>337795390
Everything made by Satoshi Kon is GOAT: Millenium Actress, Perfect Blue, etc.
>>337787431
/thread
>>337795919
Not really, it's just that people coming from academic backgrounds link deconstruction with Derrida, while others use the colloquial definition of the term.
>>337795898
Or we could shitpost at them until they use the word that means the thing they want to express. The more words get used to mean the same thing the less gravitas they have, it's why the current wave of people calling editorial and modifications to a product censorship are equally problematic in that context.
>>337795919
meme post.
>>337793264
nah isn't
>>337795524
A lot of people using a word wrong doesn't make it right.
It's like literally, when you should use figuratively
Then again the problem with the misuse of that word is that it's been used for emphasis, and not for its actual use
>>337795587
The problem with Madoka is that it brought a lot of migrants to /a/ from other sites because of the episode discussion and the alphabet decryption efforts. Those fresh arrivals couldn't be assed to stick to lurking and were frankly a pain in the ass.
>>337780979
>>337782026
UNDERTALE is likely the best and most accessible example of RPG deconstruction there is.
>>337796128
>A lot of people using a word wrong doesn't make it right.
Eventually it does.
>>337796083
I certainly get annoyed when people use words incorrectly, "pretentious" never ceases to annoy me to such an extent that I refuse to use the word anymore as, as far as i'm concerned, popular discourse has completely changed the meaning of the word.
The awkard thing is that language evolves and so i'm not necessarily right to call people out, especially when their meaning is clear. Language is, after all, just a tool by which we communicate, if we understand what the other person is saying it is not actually important if they use the "correct" words or not.
This debate makes me struggle for sure and I try to point people to the actual definition of the word but I have to admit I am not necessarily correct.
Also, just a little extra point which you might already be aware of: the word egregious, it used to mean good now it means bad how mental is that.
It seems impossible to me to discourse with complete certainly on language when history demonstrates that words are always changing in meaning.
>>337796083
>Being a prescriptivist
>>337795919
Memeception right here.
Everyone wants to be NGE nowadays.
>>337796128
>A lot of people using a word wrong doesn't make it right.
It does, and have always been like that.
>>337796347
Being a mediocre game or having mediocre writing doesn't make it any less of a deconstruction
>>337796250
>"you don't need to kill anything" repeated ad nauseam
>good writing
Nah
Is Madoka even really a "deconstruction" of Magical Girl anime? I enjoyed it, but really it was just a violent, gothic magical girl show, it didn't really seem like anything was "deconstructed".
Evangelion on the other hand is a critical analysis of Anime and Otaku Culture. This is why most people have no problem calling Evangelion "Decontructionist" because it's heavily analyzing themes and tropes of the medium and also the biases and views of the audiences.
>>337796349
At some point you gotta ask yourself if the fight is worth fighting and if it actually adds anything. It's not like people on 4chan are the only ones using deconstruction, "higher up" media critics use it as well so what kind of sway do you think you have? And what do you think will be achieved in here?
It's like all those people still coming in quoting the OP going
>hurrrrr deconstruction
as if simply letting someone know you disagree with a word they used is worth anyone's time when you can't even be bothered to come up with an argument on why. The only thing it does is enforce what we already know, i.e. that 4chan is a shithole with too many people stuck up their own arse to form a coherent discussion on anything not completely banal.
I mean honestly keeping the term subversion in mind is fine but at some point you should get over it.
>>337795439
Yes, we are all fooled into a grand marketing scheme by a single developer who already had a shit ton of publicity after the demo has been released.
Why even talk about games at all? That's what those marketing goons want from us, we should just shitpost on /v/ about how cool we're for hating on games others like.
>>337780979
Drakengard.
Madoka deconstructed my sense of reality because it makes me consider I've been shifted to a universe where everyone collectively decided to consider a mediocre show a masterpiece, and that scares me.
>>337796717
>Evangelion on the other hand is a critical analysis of Anime and Otaku Culture.
Really now? I thought it was Anno just throwing symbolism at the audience.
>>337796828
it was doing "deconstruction" before it was even a meme
but its funny how Taro has his own self-styled way of writing that hardly addresses the modern memes
>>337796741
I'm not really sure why you linked my post to be honest. I don't expect video game jouranlists to use deconstruction in a Derridean sense anymore than I do 4chaners. However, when I read an academic essay i suspect that they are unless they explicitly state they aren't.
>>337792923
It's actually a deconstruction of the entire first game.
>>337796879
Who needs competent writing when you can have bullshit plot twists.
Live A Live is somewhere between satire/deconstruction of the standard RPG.
>>337796717
>Is Madoka even really a "deconstruction" of Magical Girl anime?
yes
Not gonna spoon feed you, but it deals with many ignored issues in magical girls anime.
For example Kyubes race actually runs on girls wanting to be a cliche magical girl. And that just off the top of my head.
>>337785518
Bioshock's message is "you will never have free will in a videogame"
A man chooses, a slave obeys. Man = dev, slave = player.
Nigga, it's as crystal clear as the first "puzzle" in Bioshock:I
>>337797116
I wouldnt call the plot twists on Madoka bullshit, no deux ex machina is introduced really.
>>337797034
I linked your post because you were arguing about people using words wrongly. I dunno, somewhere in that line of posts I got annoyed about the whole "we need to shitposts about semantics on a chinese image board" idea. I certainly agree about clarity in academia.
>>337796717
Most of Eva's deconstructions and analysis already existed in mecha due to the cycle, it just fucked up the cycle and now mecha is a caricature of itself.
>>337797116
exactly. This is becoming the norm these days. But keeping peoples attention must be getting hard i guess. Since its that or a plot that is cliche as fuck.
>>337796929
Yes.
Evangelion is largely a critique of anime and otaku fandom. It takes incredibly absurd ideas and views that are common in anime and plays on them in certain ways. For example, it takes a "Tsundere" a popular anime trope, but then fully fleshes out this Tsundere as someone who like they would in real life, suffer from severe mental illness brought on in Asukas case by child abuse and neglect. Asuka isn't your "tsundere dream girl" she's a incredibly broken and fucked individual.
Lot of people (including most Otaku sadly) have completely missed this point of Evangelion, which is why in End of Evangelion, Shinji (who represents the audience) masturbates over a comatose girl and then they have a 10 minute long segment basically berating Shinji (the audience) for his misogyny and ultra sexualized objectification of women, which then has Shinji lash out as fucking Elliot Rodgers blaming women for not living up to his ideal while being confronted they are human beings with lives and minds of their own which he reacts by choking out and murdering Asuka.
This is always why I find it hilarious so many on 4chan circlejerk over End of Evangelion, the entire film is a complete brutal feminist evisceration of Geek/Otaku fandom, harsher than anything say Anita Saarkesian has ever said.
Go watch the Third Impact sequence again, more importantly, the scenes leading up to it (starting with child shinji in the park building the sand pyramid)
>>337797378
Is Eva truly mecha?
>>337797420
Pretty much all mediums have turned to shit. Its either regurgitated sameshit, retro-worship, or so "original" deconstructionshit.
>>337797530
Eva certainly has more themes than biblical references but is none of the bullshit you just wrote.
>>337797716
Its exactly as he said it if you actually bother to pay attention to the characters rather than the "references"
>>337797716
Anon, not him but the tsundere one is fucking obvious. The other.. yeah, its argueable
>>337797530
It's the same thing with Fight Club.
It's the number 1 frat boy movie despite the movie making fun and critiquing fraternity and masculinity.
>>337797130
So what? There's a race of vampire who feed on magical girl. How does that make it a deconstruction?
>>337797530
>For example, it takes a "Tsundere" a popular anime trope, but then fully fleshes out this Tsundere as someone who like they would in real life
"tsundere" was not really a thing in 1995, let alone a popular thing, even if a lot of characters have been retroactively tagged as such because they fit the bill. you'd be no more right calling a character a tsundere in 80 and 90's anime than doing it for any other media.
Post yfw /trash/ is a deconstruction of 4chan boards
>>337797530
Mecha Pilots being broken individuals existed since the beginning of super robot though.
Asuka is more or less a female version of Tetsuya Tsurugi, who fakes an ace pilot attitude for fear of being replaced with a better pilot, being fired, and getting thrown back out on the street.
Hell, if you replace accepting a brotherly bond with love, Tetsuya would be the exact type of tsundere Asuka is.
>>337797530
T
Evangelion was written so that you can see Metaphors everywhere.
Basically you see what you want and you expose more of yourself discussing it than Evangelion itself.And arguing about it is how it is marketed, which is brilliant
>>337797636
>Is Eva truly mecha?
>Is a show featuring a giant purple cyborg punching monsters in the crotch truly mecha
Gee anon I don't know
>>337798000
Truly the Mulholland Drive of anime
>>337796879
I've never read any stuff on the internet about why other people like it, but I can tell you why I really liked Madoka.
I thought the art-direction was really well done, particularly how they did the art for whatever those witch-zone things are called (it's been a while). I am really a sucker for anything that I think looks nice, and this series really hit the spot for me.
I thought the pacing was well done, though the first few episodes are a little bit slow this sort of makes sense for the beginning of a show where its establishing its world and I'd say particular sense for Madoka given the contrast it allows as the series goes forward. I was never bored as far as I can remember, and if not much was happening for a bit
I thought the characters were all well done, and I particularly liked Madoka being this really pure being surrounded by imperfect people and the issues and interactions that arise from this, while also, I thought, justifying such a fantastical ending.
Then there was the movie which I could have loved based on just the art alone, but then they had a whole mystery aspect that drew me in, and I enjoyed the whole duality thing returning in its ending, it made it really feel inescapable.
I dunno, it's been a long time and I'm really tired.
What animes do you like?
I found one of my favorite albums when someone was calling my taste shit, so I don't mean this as a "fuck you, what do you like" question, but I genuinely want to know.
>>337797636
>It's not mecha because they aren't actually mechs
At the beginning they are treated like mecha and they act like super robots throughout.
"It isn't mecha" is a limp-dicked excuse people formed to avoid taking responsibilty for what it did to the genre.
>>337797530
>Asuka (and Shinji) got fucked up because their mums died, m8
Thats a given.
>The tsundere drope
Thats a given, but now in pretty much all "deep" anime at least one little girl is fucking psychotic, thanks Eva.
Honestly I haven`t put that much thought into the masturbation scene, you are probably right though.
>the entire film is a complete brutal feminist evisceration of Geek/Otaku fandom
Didn`t Miyazaki do/say something in that nature once? Arent most of his MCs female because men are icky?
>>337797876
Have you Even seen Madoka?
Kyube literally explain how they make magical girl, witches and use it for power.
I mean literally deconstructs the magical girl formula and explains how they made it. And the whole plot is Homura tring to rewrite the formula.
Seriously the central plot is analyzing the magical girl formula.
>>337795795
>are you talking frequency or just accumulation over time?
Accumulation over time, but also in terms of being greater in depth, Sailor Moon take place over a much greater timescale and has many character focused and generally lighter episodes along with everything else. Sailor Moon explores how moral sentiments and virtue can themselves exist in contradictory ways.
>Like shit nigga say I watch the first 12 or 13 episodes what can I expect?
An introductory arc to the show.
Though keep in mind that there are a ton of adaptations of it aside from the original anime which are completely different from each other and focus on doing different things well.
>>337798453
>there are a ton of adaptations of it aside from the original anime which are completely different from each other and focus on doing different things well.
well fuck just tell me what to watch/read man
>>337797530
Name a single mecha pilot with a stable relationship with both parents.
Mommy/Daddy issues have been a thing in mecha since the start.
>>337797130
>For example Kyubes race actually runs on girls wanting to be a cliche magical girl.
Which doesn't exist. Nobody generally chooses to be a magical girl because they want to be, it's generally something that's thrust upon them through birth or circumstance.
>Seriously the central plot is analyzing the magical girl formula.
>how they make magical girl
Which is what? Madoka has little to do with what that is at all, it just swaps out the premises for something different and unrelated. What magical girl shows have you actually seen?
>>337786017
Deconstruction and Critical Analysis have always driven me into a rage. They're the philosophical equivalent of a nagging harpy on culture. They don't really offer either an alternative or a solid reason why whatever system in place should be changed. Because that would require actually defending your argument and offering constructive criticism.
Deconstruction just swoops in, shits on something, declares it a tool of the bourgeois, and flies off
>>337798646
The pilot is pretty much inside a mecha, which symbolises both the mother and the womb.
>deconstruction
>tropes
>subversion
>inversion
>irony
>satire
>postmodern
>post-irony
Literally KYS yourself if you've ever used any of these words.
>>337797716
(This is just a very small taste of the third impact scene, and there is more leading up to this setting the context of how the scene is supposed to be viewed from a feminist lens, but read this understanding that Shinji is supposed to be the audience and it's critiquing objectification of female characters)
Shinji: Nobody understands me.
Rei: You never understood anything.
Shinji: I thought this was supposed to be a world without pain, and without uncertainty
.
Rei: That's because you thought that everyone else felt the same as you do.
Shinji: You betrayed me! You betrayed my feelings!
Rei: You misunderstood from the very beginning. You just believed what you wanted to believe.
Shinji: Nobody wants me, so they can all just die.
Rei: Then what is your hand for?
Shinji: Nobody cares whether or not I exist.
Nothing ever changes, so they can all just die.
Rei: Then tell me, what is your heart for?
Shinji: It would be better if I never existed. I should just die, too.
Rei: Then why are you here?
...Rei/Misato/Asuka: Don’t call me anymore. I hate you. God, you’re persistent. I wouldn’t be caught dead with you. You’re bothering me. There’s no way we can start over again, you jerk! Goodbye. I wish you’d think. Are you being serious? I have no interest in getting back together with you. Look at you. Let’s just be friends. This all was just a cheap thing. Do I even know you? You’re getting me nervous. Why don’t you do the world a favor and just die? Who the hell are you? I don’t love you that way. Who the hell are you? I couldn’t care less whether you lived or died. I don’t want you in my life. None of your business.. (etc this goes on for a while I had to cut most to stay in character limit)
Misato: If it’s too painful, you can always make it stop.
Rei: If you don’t like it, you can just run away.
Misato: Do you want to be at ease? Do you want to feel peace of mind? Do you want to become one with me?
Asuka I’d rather die than do it with you!
>>337798865
post-irony is real nigga shit
>>337790795
So question then.
What do you say to people like me who through their own interest and study and self discovery, came across these kinds of ideas, and in finding them also finding they enjoyed them?
I've never heard or used terms like "deconstruction". So frankly, as an outsider, I don't see all the fuss in the argument, except maybe some psuedo classical vs neo-classical debate of terms and whatever else.
Can someone explain to me, what is the harm in these terms or where they originate? My understanding of the issue is people use these terms in duscussion to seem intelligent. Or, they say to enjoy these ideas for the same reason. Is that it? Is it all just a rally against psuedo-intellectuals?
>>337797130
Most magical girls dont be magical girls by choice, it's either based on birth (Cutey Honey) or responsibility for their actions (Cardcaptor Sakura, Devilman lady)
>>337798845
Getter robo must be one fucked up womb then.
>>337797782
>if you actually bother to pay attention
You mean if you bother to project your stupid ideologies.
This is Hideaki Anno.
>>337798808
I wanted to type a snide reply because you quoted me and got mad but you know what, you're right.
>>337798572I'll get shit on, but the first thing I'd recommend to watch is the second episode of the old DiC dub of the anime, in order to orient yourself. It hints at enough of the larger plot without spoiling too much and you should be able to have fan watching it for what it is. Otherwise dive straight into the '90s show in Japanese with subs from episode 1 for now.
>>337780979
Madoka is not a deconstruction, it's just a dark-themed magical girl anime. It's even got a somewhat happy ending.
Maybe Eva would have been a better choice.
>>337798439
So there's an explanation on how magical girls are created and something about being who fed on them.
I still don't see the deconstruction. Admitly I only watched Princess Tutu.
>>337798808
>declares it a tool of the bourgeois
What shits me is how this degrades actual, proper Marxism into a strange plaything.
>>337798764
>For example Kyubes race actually runs on girls wanting to be a cliche magical girl.
>Which doesn't exist. Nobody generally chooses to be a magical girl because they want to be, it's generally something that's thrust upon them through birth or circumstance.
Sayaka because she wanted to be a magical girl and found out the hard way that it only lead to despair. Which again is deconstructing the selfless magical girl trope.
>how they make magical girl
>Which is what?
Madoka is about Homura keeping Madoka from making a wish contract to become a magical girl.
>>337798931
I thought this was just Shinji being himself and projecting his insecurities on others.
>>337799294
Oh, and you should be able to find most of the shit you'd want here:
http://www.sailormooncenter.net/
Or here if you're desperate:
https://missdream.org/
>>337799003
>Can someone explain to me, what is the harm in these terms or where they originate?
You know these people that try to sound smart but really aren't? The people you're talking about try to sound even smarter by telling people trying to be smart that they're just trying to be smart but who would've guessed, they aren't either. It's one grand kneejerk-reaction trying to block out any serious discussion before it even starts because dear god someone else might actually confront me with a valid analysis and then I'm not the smartest kid in the room any more.
>>337799432
>degrades actual, proper Marxism
Haha, good one.
>>337798931
Also continuing on from this. There is also critique of Otaku escaping into Anime and objectification of women to run away from their issues in the real world. Remember in End of Evangelion, Shinji is the audience, specifically Otakus, Rei, Asuka and Misato are basically women trying to tell them to let go of "Waifushit" and objectification of women and learn to meet and respect women in the real world.
Shinji: Hey.
Rei: What is it?
Shinji: What are dreams?
Asuka: Dreams?
Rei: Yes, dreams.
*Shot of literal evangelion fanboys in a cinema with rei dolls and shit while text on the screen appears [DOES IT FEEL GOOD?!]*
Shinji: I don't understand. I don't understand what reality is.
Rei: You can't bridge the gap between your own truth and the reality of others.
Shinji: I don't know where to find happiness.
Rei: So you only find happiness in your dreams.
Shinji: Then... this is not reality? This world where no one exists?
Rei: No. It is only a dream.
Shinji: Then I don't exist here either.
Rei: This convenient fabrication is your attempt to change reality.
Shinji: Is that wrong?
Rei: You were using fantasy to escape reality.
Shinji: Why can't I dream that I'm alone?
Rei: That is not a dream. That is a substitute for reality.
Shinji: So where is my dream?
Rei: It is a continuation of reality.
Shinji: But where is my reality.
Rei: It is at the end of your dream.
Also one final thing to follow up on this, both Miyazaki and Anno were radical hardcore Marxist Feminists. While these views have been tempered with age, you can still see feminist and class themes play heavily in their works.
>>337799509
>Which again is deconstructing the selfless magical girl trope.
How is that a deconstruction?
>>337799294
>I'd recommend to watch is the second episode of the old DiC dub of the anime
>the second episode
>specifically the dub
what the fuck
i mean i appreciate you putting thought into this to the point where you would end up typing that sentence but probably gonna do the latter thing. thanks for the heads up on the benefits of the dubbed second episode though
>>337799642
very much thanks for this i dont have a lot of trouble getting stuff usually but i am not yet on a private tracker for anime so it is a bit of a blind spot
>>337799703
So pretty much college
>>337799414
Do you mean Eva from Mahou Shoujo-tai Arusu?
I just looked it up. Never heard of it. Art look nice. Is it worth a watch? Been looking for something good to watch.
>>337798086
I haven't watched Madoka since it aired so I can't really give you a full review of everything that was wrong with it, but to name one of the problem: the contrast in tone doesn't go far enough while pretending it did. To call a particular point, when Mami dies which is supposed to be THE tone changer of the show it's done in a cartoony anime way, not at all contrasting with the anime up until that point. If you're gonna try to sell me this show as some sort of art piece like a lot of people do then it has to do a lot better than that. This problem keeps happening right until the end of the show. Like when Kyubey says if it wasn't for them humans would be just monkeys and the shot frames his stupid cat smiling face. That was a line that was put there 100% for the shock value of the line itself first and any lore implication second, and it was frankly embarrassing to watch, it's not expanded upon or even explained. We know for a fact in the real world that that wasn't the case, and the sequence shown does little more than showing important history figures and events being influenced by them, but that is hardly uplifting a species. And yet people get easily amused and by that poorly shoved in lore bit.
Disapointing cartoon desu senpai.
>>337781939
>english
>making sense at all
>>337786763
nigga, dafuk you are on
deconstructions have always been a terms used when an artist depicts how hard a given genre will crash and burn when applied to real life interactions
they are harder to pull off because y'know, realistic human beings / whatevs are not walking cliches
it can be over the top and exaggerated as fuck, but the message is always "this is stupid"
Watchmen still is one of the best deconstructions i had ever seen.
>>337799638
It could be interpreted like that, but the scene leading up to it (I sadly can't find a transcript) is explicity talking about how he objectifies Misato, Rei and Asuka as sex objects and then third impact devolves into women turning him down and then Misato and Rei appear as generic happy sex dolls asking him if he wants to "be at ease" and "run away", then the scene further collapses into this:
>>337799808
Which clearly shows Evangelion fanboys while it's talking about these themes.
it's clearly a critique on Otaku and their objectification of women and escaping into Waifushit fantasy. The first time I saw "Does it feel good" appear on screen with Eva fanboys some with Rei dolls I literally burst into laughter at how fucking brutal it was.
>>337799808
>Marxist
Fucking commies
Time to give up anime. I understand Fascism but not communism
>>337799893
>>337798764
watch it anon
>>337789451
you just wrote 1000 words yet your message could be resumed in 100.
so this the power of social sciences
>>337789904
There he goes exaggerating again
>>337800278
No, I'm asking you to define what a deconstruction is.
>>337800356
>what is an example
>>337799969
>Kyubey says if it wasn't for them humans would be just monkeys
Kyyubey is emotionless and only cares about humanity as a vehicle for keeping the universe alive. He's saying that his magical girl system is the only reason why humanity is important in the grand scheme of things and he wouldn't give a shit about Earth if it wasn't for them.
At least pay attention to the show, it's not like Urobuchi is subtle.
>>337785957
If it were really a deconstruction, it would have shown the bit where the big strong army dudes that are supposed to prevent humanity from sending little girls to fight for them get their arses wooped beforehand.
Imagine you're a dude with a family back home, and suddenly ayy comes down. Your weapons don't work, your buddies are getting cut down one by one, and someone tells you that in order to beat the aliens, they need to take your daughter, your daughter that wouldn't hurt a fly, and turn her into a weapon. You shout "No" and decide you'd rather try harder than contemplate sending her out in the firing line. You fail, and she's plucked out and trained, your death used as fuel to "avenge you".
>>337799808
Truly, Rei is best girl.
>>337800385
>>337799808
So the movie was pretty much Anno taking a shit on Eva fans. I never even realized this, but Eva pretty much established the trend of Gainax(anything associated with Anno really) taking a shit on their fans.
>both Miyazaki and Anno were radical hardcore Marxist Feminists.
Ironically Miyazaki has a lot of princesses in his movies. The old coot is an enigma, or more likely just contradicts himself a lot.
>>337799703
Ah, I think I get it better now. Maybe...
I think I've met people like that too. And as much as I like stuff like Madoka or anything else discussed in this thread, there are peiple who don't like when you really take things apart and reveal it as being simpler than it might appear (or than they want it to appear). So something of a defense of one's claims not because you think they're right, but because you don't want to be wrong?
Something like that maybe? I'm still not sure...
What's the animu in the top left of the OP?
>>337800385
Google Faggot
>>337799896
>what the fuck
Yeah, I anticipated that reaction. The reason is that the old 'dub' is a dub in name only and completely rearranges and rewrites the show so that shit happens completely differently. This is mostly terrible, as you'd expect, but there are certain episodes that I can't deny do certain things the original doesn't quite pull off as well, though they are rare. I'd understand any outright hatred, but I really can't think of any episode of any adaptation that does such a good job of just introducing the whole vibe of the thing.
I really wanted to be able to recommend SM:Crystal as the definite introduction, but that's far too poor to be worthwhile and I'm disappointed at how little it's pulled off well so far.
>no Samurai Flamenco
Shit thread.
>>337790795
Lmao tvtropes is not that influential anon.
>>337800594
Are you fucking retarded? Do you even know how to have a normal discussion? Do you even know what spoonfeeding is?
>>337800625
The movie ending of Evangelion was beyond perfect and makes more sense than anything else that could have been done.
Evangelion is only a dump on your face if you're Shinji. But no one should be like Shinji, even if it hits too close to home.
>>337786282
So, moot point.
>>337800625
>A princess cannot be a pro-feminist character
Nigga, in the manga, the blond princess was fucking awesome
Gell, I'm watching Turn A and Dianna is a pretty strong female character despite never piloting giant robot
You guys are completely off base. Madoka isn't a deconstruction of the magical girl genre, it's a deconstruction of the Japanese idol/Hollywood child actor industry.
>magical girls and idols/child actresses are superficially seen as something glamorous that a lot of young girls wish to achieve
>to achieve this dream the young girls make a deal with Kyubey's race/idol producers/Hollywood executives by signing a simple little contract
>but things aren't that simple, because signing that contract is basically signing away your rights to have a normal childhood and a normal life later on. these girls are basically signing away their souls
>Kyubey feeding on the girl's souls is also an analogy of how producers and Hollywood executives make tons of money off of exploiting these girls. there's also the obvious shady child abuse/molestation angle thing going
>after an idol/child actress is no longer seen as useful, they grow up into witches. idols go on to a porn career because the stepping stone to the career shift isn't that far. Hollywood child actresses basically live unfulfilling lives, most never escaping the shadow of child stardom to have a serious, respectable film career. They often go broke from mismanagement of money, fade into obscurity, develop drug problems or all of the above. Their existence is swept under the rug while a new batch of magical girls/idols/child actresses take their place
>>337799969
Yeah, it has been a long time for us both, so I guess it's hard to have a very good discussion about it, but I don't know, I'm not really convinced by your post. Seems like more of a you thing then something objectively bad about it. A difference in taste. I enjoyed how the witch bits would mix whimsicality with horror. You can keep some form of contrast post-tone shift. The world doesn't need to go from whimsical to terrible completely and in the blink of an eye. Hell, if anything it would seem like too much of a shift. It wouldn't feel like it it made sense in the world if instead of that weird cartoon worm thing was in the 3rd episode witch it was like a really gritty bloody guy. It felt like it kept in line with the world it was portraying, but at the same time made it feel more real by jarringly showing that actions in it have consequences.
Or something like that.
I don't 100% remember the other part you are talking about, but I am pretty sure I never thought that Kyubey had a stupid face. Can't really comment on the lore bit aside from saying that those Kyubey dudes were pretty powerful, so if they wanted to do some raising humanity up shit or whatever and keep it a secret then I don't think they'd have a problem. I dunno, as far as I can remember my disbelief was suspended for that bit.
