Why has no RTS ever come remotely close to the perfection that is Brood War?
it just makes sense.
I can analyze every facet of any unit and understand the role it plays, it's strengths, weaknesses, and mechanics.
I play dawn of War, or AoE2 or any other game, and I just sit there scratching my head thinking "this is dumb, and not intuitive"
Funny thing seeing this post
I was just on Teamliquid and just yestersay they announced a new server with automatic matchmaking, modern windows support and optimized windowed mode.
ShieldBattery
https://www.shieldbattery.net/splash
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/508993-shieldbattery-bw-revitalized-for-modern-mortals
The beta signups are up, maybe you should sign up OP?
>MFW David Kim and Dustin browder destroyed the franchise
>>337605660
>I just sit there scratching my head thinking "this is dumb, and not intuitive"
Maybe your stupid brain is the problem?
>>337605660
i agree with you that brood war is one of the best and most balanced RTS ever
but you're dumb as heck if you think unit roles arent intuitive in DoW and AoE2 as well
it's all essentially rock paper scissors
>>337607262
That's the thing though Brood War wasn't rock paper scissors in terms of units because of how the UI worked and it's micro implications.
Reavers theoretically trash vultures, but hey you split vultures up and reaver do shit.
Take a shuttle and micro the reaver and the reaver rules again.
Dragoons are better than vultures 1:1 and trash them, but if they are 1:1,5 and caught out they get surrounded and killed.
Even 1:1 Dragoons vs vultures, vultures with mine surrounds win vs unmicroed dragoons.
In my opinion AoE2 is a great game unlike Op seems to think, but due to how the pathing and micro operated AoE 2 units were more rock paper scissors than BW.
>>337605660
Brood Wars wasn't perfect. Incidentally, the idea that BW was perfection incarnate is probably the reason no other RTS will ever achieve such unreachable mythical standards. Devs continue to replicate decade old games, without learning anything from the flaws and lessons learned from those old game designs.
>>337607671
thats exactly my point AoE2 movement is terrible awful, micro is terrible and ugly, Brood War flows, it just works
>>337605660
sounds more like you're just an idiot who is attached to his first game more than any virtue to be attributed to brood war in that sense
>>337607224
>being this assblasted about someone else opinion
F A G G O T
>>337608289
>Brood War flows
I don't remember Starcraft pathfinding flowing at all, along with the 12 unit selection limit making micro incredibly frustrating.
>>337607671
Day9 explained this very well.
There was a higher skill ceiling in BW because advanced mechanics allowed players to get much more value out of units.
If you get a mutalisk and 1-A in SC2, you get x effectiveness out of it. If you actually control the mutalisk properly, you get like 1.5x effectiveness out of it.
If you control that mutalisk properly in BW, you can get 8x effectiveness out of it.
>>337608720
That's not advanced mechanics.
That is the actual mechanics of the game being so poorly done that you have to literally jump through hoops just to properly play
>brood war
>perfection
>>337609207
>I suck at video games
>>337605660
brood war isn't intuitive.
starcraft isn't intuitive.
the interfaces are gay and awful and APM apm apm apm apm apm.
you should be able to play any rts at a pro level with 25 apm otherwise it's shit and bad.
>>337605660
>real time "strategy" game that's incomparably more execution focused than any pretense of strategy
yeeeeeah it's shit
>>337609368
He's right though, those ARN'T advance mechanics. Suggesting that they are is implying that the developers designed those "work arounds" intentionally, but we a lot of the issues that pluaged SC were due to engine limitations and design decisions that did not pan out well and turn REQUIRED further input from the player to compensate for those poor unit pathing/AI. Are valkayries being shit late game an advance mechanic as well?
>>337608593
>flow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7mUi8Up18g
>not flow
https://youtu.be/ymNupI4p5ZU?t=51s
>>337609961
Neither of those games flow well, what's your point?
>>337609368
It's a higher skill ceiling because the UI and game is so poorly fleshed, yippee
meanwhile I will be better than you at games where there is no gimmicks like that
>>337605660
Supreme Commander FAF.
>>337609961
Christ almighty if there's one thing I never want to see touted as a good thing about starcraft it's fucking muta stacking. That was the gayest dumbest shit to happen to video games. You can't defend that trash, that is just poor design through and through
>>337605660
Its called Total Annihilation
>>337605660
I think takes some passion and motivation to make a multiplayer game that balanced and complex. More than just wanting to make a paycheck those programmers have to want this game to exist because there isn't anything like it.
The video game market is totally saturated nowadays. There are so many games out that even the neetest neet can't keep up with all of them.
>>337606797
Yeh, sounds pretty good.
I still will stick with SC2 but it will be good to be able to play this again.
Hopefully DoW3 will be good too. LoTV is pretty good right now
When did the story go to shit?
Antaro vaginar! The over mind corpse overlord became a tyranid zelnaga now ghost blade queen hybrid can save us from reapers.
>>337609929
>a lot of the issues that pluaged SC were due to engine limitations
I don't see how that is inherently a bad thing. Games in the past had limitations, whoop-dee-fucking doo. Those limitations resulted in creative applications that separated a good player from an average player.
Sure it's clunky by today's standards, but it doesn't change the fact that it rewarded skillful play in a way that has never really been surpassed in the genre. Your thought process is precisely what created SC2.
Half the time people rag on BW I am genuinely convinced that they are literally just mad because bad.
>>337610320
Muta stacking isn't broken. Do you even play the game?
>Jaedong
>The best Zerg player in history
Him stacking 2 control groups is OP is fuck, but here's the thing. Even most pros can't do it.
+ Muta micro is soo much more than stacking your mutas. The skill ceilling with controlling your glaives and god forbid the scourge is insane (see chinese triangle).
A God like terran player can defend God like Zerg muta micro.
Vulture micro is theoretically broken too since 2 speed vultures can micro down infinite zerglings, but it's kinda irrelevant since it's soo hard to control your vultures in real games.
>>337610486
I couldn't stand the second half of the LotV campaign. Artanis dialogues felt like watching a Ted Cruz speech and that Amon badguy was one of the most shoehorned "I hate everything" bad guys of all time.
>>337610320
Ignore the unit a hand, the point was how carefully you can control a unit in Brood War
you could literally run circles around AoE2 units because of how clunky it is
>>337610728
Interestingly enough the devs have stated that the 12 units per control group was by design.
It wasn't a software limitation (a lot of BW was, but not this one). They played around with 24 and 30 ctrl groups, but found it made zerg overpowered as hell.
TLDR: A lot of BW micro was because of software limitation, but specifically 12 unit per control group was by design
>>337611158
that doesn't surprise me at all
honestly, the thing that everyone complains about is that 98% of SC2 games come down to death ball vs. death ball, and in most instances you can predict the outcome of those battles beforehand. composition x always wins against composition y because that's just how it is and the player has no way of skewing the odds in his favor once the fight begins.
>>337611045
Brood War unit control has more range and you can do way more with it and it is very smooth, but in a retarded way. You need to learn how the unit moves before you can start properly issuing commands.
AoE2 movement is a lot more predictable, which is good imho, units shouldn't fall down cliffs or get stuck on ramps if you don't baby sit them, but on the contrary you can do much less with AoE 2 units.
>>337606797
It asked for teamliquid username. What if I don't use teamliquid. Can I leave it blank?
I love broodwar
>>337611519
Problem with SC2 is that the AI is literally TOO GOOD. Everything just jells into a nice tight ball.
I wish units were slightly bigger and wouldn't form into a perfect circle. All we need is units to be slightly bigger and move slightly less like fluid. Like have unit space randomly change each A move and be slightly eliptical in a random direction just so that units clump slightly less.
>>337611753
>>337610474
Dunno it's pretty easy to sign up for it though. I think the server needs as much help/beta testers as it can get.
>>337610728
But to imply that SC:BW was perfect in the face of the fact that their was a sprite count limit in SC:BW which crippled the effectiveness of the Valkyrie when a large number of units were on screen? These aren't limitation that the developers worked around, these are limitations that were left in the game because there was no other way around them. Any poorly designed mechanic in any game will have players that will learn to abuse it, that's not something special to
BW.
>>337612205
I never said it was perfect.
Next thing you're gonna tell me that camera and hit detection in Super Mario 64 isn't up to your standards.
>>337612205
Lol you mean like parallel universes in Mario 64?
>>337612336
That's what I assumed was being discussed in these thread familia, refer to OP
>>337605660
>Why has no RTS ever come remotely close to the perfection that is Brood War
>>337611968
I think its good that the pathfinding is good and acts predictably instead of being chaotic like SC1.
In SC2 splitting is a skill. Please don't put RNG in my SC2
>>337610875
what the fuck are you talking about you fuckin flaming queer. I never said it was OP and i don't give two shits about any of that dumbass shit you just mentally masturbated about. Having like a dozen units all occupying the same fucking tile being possible is just stupid. Not even discussing balance, it's just absurd
>>337612516
the general theme of this thread shifted from "BW was perfect" to "BW actually sucked". I just came to defend a good game and possibly berate people who have no idea what they are talking about in the process.
Don't waste your breaths , guys.
Brood War fanboys don't like SupCom or TA.
>>337612564
mad cuz bad
>>337608593
even if you could select more than 12 units all it would mean is that you could 1a instead of 1a2a3a. when you actually have to micro your units you only have 1-3 selected at a time.
>>337609401
I really don't get why people complain about the interface so much. you have all the commands you need. attack, attack move, stop, hold position, patrol. some games that came out after starcraft didn't even have attack move or stop commands. sure, sometimes units will get stuck because of buggy pathing, but if you tell a unit to move away it will never turn around and start attacking 2 seconds later like in a lot of games.
>>337612908
>lol its not even overpowered dude
>i never said it was overpowered
>mad cuz bad
???
ok
>was rewatching brood war intro earlier
>mfw this thread
>>337612180
I had signed up already yah
>>337612723
Brood War had it's problems, and ironically some of thos problems elevated it into such a good competative game.
As a casual game it certainly has it's problems, but as a competative game, I think it's one of the best if not the best.
>>337613116
it's like 4chan being really barebones on a technical level, but you end up with people having fun with the interface and extracting enjoyment out of the imposed contrictions. so we get filename threads and triforces.
The best competitive games have always been a happy accident of mishaps that stem from mistakes in the game programming
BW is in that category
Shame I could never play it, I never had the APM
>>337612946
No it literally wouldn't the implications would be much greater.
Yes a protoss and a terran CAN fit their entire army on hotkeys while managing production via 2-3 hotkeys + F1-3 HOWEVER.
Zerg needs 3-4 otkeys for hatcheries.
Leaving 6 hotkeys for army (ignoring that you might use 1 hotkey for defilers/mutas).
Say workers are around 65 average for each race lategame.
A protoss can fit 140 supply in 6-7 hotkeys because zealots and dragoons cost 2 supply
Terran CAN fit 140 supply into 6-7 hotkeys because tanks, vultures, cost 2 supply.
HOWEVER zerglins cost 0.5 supply meaning that those 6-7 control groups (you need a few for specialized units so it's even less). Can't even fit a 100 units in there.
If you've seen a single POV of professional level zergs controlling lategame maxed armies or better, yet actually played the game. You'd see that you have to carefully position your army for surrounds.
You 1a2a3a4a... The further back units from one side then drag box the closer units and attack like that. It takes a ton of practice to pull off and preplan these kinds of surrounds in midgame.
Yeah if ctrl groups were 30 zerg would be broken, because zergling surrounds would be OP and too easy to execute.
>>337612946
you're right, it's very easy to circumvent the 12 unit limit with a bit of finger work and a little APM, the result being the exact same thing in certain situations. it was such a chore mechanically, and in terms of strategy didn't really add anything to the game.
And with that said, I have to wonder why this was the best solution blizzard could come up with to balance zerg according to this anon >>337611158 when it's so easily overcome with just a bit of micro?
>>337613970
is that not something that should have been addressed with unit balance rather than limiting player unit control? were their limitations that prevented such a solution?
the thing that I like about starcraft is that it does what other games try to accomplish without needing many special mechanics. you have defensive terrain without needing a cover system, and melee units are effective without needung any special assault rules. even the damage system is simple. you know a tank will always do 30 damage to a dragoon and 15 damage to a zergling. in company of heroes if you have your bazooka guy shoot a tank there's like 3 layers of randomness and then a complicated damage formula.
>>337613970
yeah but that's still just moving your army around the map. no one is going to put 60 zerglings on one hotkey and just 1a and then sit back and watch. because of magic box shit you pretty much have to control smaller groups if you want your units to not bug out and congo line to their deaths.
>>337613997
See >>337613970
Zerg has the smallest per supply units.
For 2 supply you get 4 zerglings and 1 zealot. Zerglins once upgraded also have insane DPS, they rape everything, problem is that it's hard to manage them and you can only 1a2a3a4a 120 of them, which is only 60 supply if you dedicate ALL of your hotkeys to your army.
This means that you need less efficient, but larger units aside from zerglings AND that lategame you have to drag box half your army.
This usually looks like this, you preposition your army in two places, preparing to surround from 2 angles (or more if tou are god like, but it gets harder and harder) from one side you 1a2a3a from the other you drag box.
You also have to time this correctly as drag boxing takes longer than 1a2a3a. If you drag box first, the drag box units should be further away to reach the unit as the same time as 1a2a3a counterpart.
Look if you are interested I can like to a few professional level POV Zerg players, this is not an uncommon thing, it pretty much happens in every game that lasta longer than 20 minutes and the zerg reaches high supply count.
For Protoss and Terran this isn't a problem (Army management, especially for Terran is still hell because of sieging, mining, making turrets while pushing, but at the very least you can fit your army in the 1a2a3a)
>>337614521
People didn't care so much for balance back then really.
Guess it is also there to encourage players to transition into higher tier units.
>>337614739
Yeah, I love this. To me there is beauty in something as simple as how Zerglings are Zealots are balanced, and how they can situationally beat each other.
>>337615116
Yes they would. You don't aplit your army that much.
Do you even realize how much easier surrounding would be.
Say lategame I make a ultra/ling army that fits into 7 hotkeys + 1-2 drags. I can preposition those 7 hotkey groups much more easily.
Kongoolines are common, but even top zergs don't surround from more than 3-4 positions. When they 1a2a3a they click on the same spot, most of the kongoline prevention is done pre attack in the positioning phase.
Soo no. What you've said is literally irrelevant.
>>337609961
that's how I get raped by mutalisk all the time in sc2. don't need bw for that
>>337608458
And you are not doing exactly the same?
>>337615202
>>337615553
you're missing the point. 60 supply of zerglings would take up the entire screen and then some. if you put them in one control group and told them to do anything they would just run around like retards. the congo line thing happens when you try to move units that don't fit into an invisible box of a certain size. trying to move a huge number of units at once would make it happen every time just because of how much space the units take up.
>>337615589
Except that mutalisk micro takes loads of effort.
The infamous chinese triangle comes to mind for microing scourge and making them bug out and turn around. You literally have to use patrol and attack move at certain angles to manage it.
You literally need to learn trigonomatry to pull it off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QV2A37yLUY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Note:Some Zerg progamers practiced this 6 hours a day until they got it down like the good little robots they were.
>>337605660
>Why has no RTS ever come remotely close to the perfection that is Brood War?
There is nothing great about Brood War.
You're saying it's the best because you chose it to be the best.
>"Your game sucks!"
Why?
>"It doesn't feel right!"
Brood War had terrible controls, nice story, lackluster but passable graphics and was all around a decent, but not exceptional game.
People moved on after better games were released, like AoE 2.
>>337616823
At what point does it stop being impressive and cross over into full blown autism. At what level of exploitation does it stop being a high skill cap and move into please patch this shit territory
>>337615116
Except that you can still split those 30 ctrl group zerglins across the map you can easily box 15 and just move them to the other side of the map and they will surround more easily.
No matter how you look at it, it makes surrouding and engaging several times more easier.
>>337617141
Nobody actually did this consistantly.
Except for Jaedong in his ZvZ and he pulled off a year off 80% winrate ZvZ in return, all thanks to his muta and zergling control.
Does this border autism? Probably yeah, lol.
However, it made him exceptional being one of the only people in the history of the game to be able to do these kinds of things whenever he wanted.
And you know what? It made him bank.
I'd never patch these things out of the game, it allowed players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Boxer, NaDa, Iloveoov, Savior to exist.
People discovering these "autistic tricks" allowed people to push their execution to new levels, use strategies that would be impossible without them, etc etc. A big part of why the game was strategically evolving soo late into it's life span is because it had an autistic level of a skill ceilling and only the best could develop something new.
>>337617141
DESU doesn't make it any less impressive.
By autism you probably mean dedication. You do realize most of these fuckers were paid to learn this? Some 6 figure salaries.
>>337617853
I suppose with a tighter roster of 3 races and the fact that individual units within the faction don't really compete for relevance it makes it more acceptable. It's just an age old question in the fighting game community that I thought might apply here as well. It's much more of an issue there however. When the game ships with over a dozen characters but someone finds some insane mechanic fuckery and from then on every tournament is just a mirror match of the one character with the dumbest exploit it can be frustrating and damaging to the scene, but at the same time incessant patches whenever someone gets butthurt on ranked is just as bad as it doesn't allow the game to evolve and grow naturally. Then again some games really don't have the potential to go anywhere without some desperate patching.
Man, makes you wonder if these games with a lasting impact like that can even be created intentionally. They all feel like a perfect storm, lightning in a bottle, a flash of genius, a dedicated community and a nice wad of luck
>>337618614
>By autism you probably mean dedication.
That's what people here define as "autism", yes.
>>337617236
>can easily box 15
that's exactly what I'm saying. no matter how many units you could put into a control group, you're still effectively limited to smaller groups when it comes down to actual micro.
>>337618614
No I mean far beyond dedication. When I say autism I mean getting to a point where you just want to play a couple rounds and then find out that to actually perform you need to sign away your soul. How is saying that these people make 6 figures to do this make it better. That's even worse. Why the shit would I play the game myself if it's "perfection" only becomes apparent to people who literally do nothing but play it for a living. What chance do I have of experiencing this untold exquisite quality crafted game design when i'm working my schmuck ass job and going to school
It's doesn't make the game shit or anything but if what sets it apart as the GOAT is stuff that is only relevant at the highest levels of "this is how i pay rent" competition then I'd rather be playing something else
>>337618619
Pretty much, while I don't think enough credit is given to Blizzard for balancing and designing Brood War.
Quite a bit of Broof War was accidental. Also about the balance, balance was largly found through maps, specific map features give asvantages to certain races.
If you are a skill map designer you can literally make a map that will facor all the non mirror matchups whichever way you want, or you know keep them near 50%.
OGN/MBC/KESPA literally employed map makers to design maps, and sometimes they would even rig maps against a particular dominating player to end his reign soo it didn't get stale.
SaviOr is a good example, he was winning 80% of the time on maps which zerg had a winrate of 25% ZvT, the designers had to make increasingly more imba maps for Terran to make him lose.
Luckily Terran eventually figured out how to play against Savior's style/strategy (this was 8 years into the game lifespan), anyway after a year the zergs learned to play Savior's style and Jaedong even perfected it, and the terrans figured out how to play against it and things eventually went back to 50/50.
TLDR; Map makers were often used like patching is in modern games, Terran is OP OP! Progamers whinned, and the map makers made maps on which Terrans sucked, eventually the players adapted to these styles and maps went back to normal, this happened dozens of times.
Good thing is, no permanent changes to the game, via patching.
>>337619798
That's fucking cool as shit. I always like seeing those kinds of indirect nerfs/buffs.
Honestly, if BW had the type of control scheme SC2 has, I'd still be playing it today. All it needs is a widescreen support, a more functional path-finding system (which is a shit show riddled with edge cases even by developers' own admission), some minor quality-of-life additions and the ability to bind more than 12 units to a hot-key and the game is pretty much perfect. All these would lower the skill ceiling, but I couldn't give two fucks about that, seeing as it is already ridiculously sky high.
This will never happen, of course, but one could always dream.
>>337619019
I mean not even that, flying units would be way OP, even without stacking (which they didn't anticipate and was only discovered in like 2005)
But even whenit comes to surrounding, the more units you can box the better. Difference between 3or6 clicks is a big thing.
In some cases it wouldn't make a difference, yes, but trust me, specifically with zerg it would.
>>337609961
This is stupid, SC was playing on fast, Aoe on normal
>>337620026
Would literally break the game's balance.
Firstly surrounding as I've been mentioning as the reason why Blizzard put the 12 unit limit in to limit zerg.
And worse off, muta micro would literally be OP, a 25-40 muta stack would be invincible.
It would break the game, Zerg would win everything.
Even strategy and build orders would change considering that for a 3 hatch mutalisk 11 mutas would no longer be optimal.
So is brood war dead? Is there at least going to be another sonic starleague or something?
>>337620005
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/final-edits/226236-god-of-the-battlefield-part-1
Really recommend this read. You don't have to read it all, when it comes to the game analysis you can stop.
Read the opening paragraph and the historical context, it's an interesting read even if you have no idea about Brood War.
How exactly is brood war seen by people as "so much better than sc2." Isn't SC2 basically just a clone with better graphics?
>>337605660
I love everything about this game, not just the gameplay.
>graphics were great at the time and still hold up well
>The sound design, voice acting and music are fucking top notch
>The three races are all unique, appealing and fun to play as
>World building was great and even the story was surprisingly good for a Blizzard game
I think the developers just wanted to make a really fun game, and the e-sport aspect came as a consequence.
Starcraft 2 pissed me of really hard because not only the "improvements" to gameplay and mechanics only served to bog down the experience (For instance, they reasoned that being able to put all your units in a control group is better because it's more "modern", right??? except that they didn't bother too look at how this would affect other aspects of the game, and this changed how the game plays ENTIRELY), as everything they did only served to show that they did not understand anything of what made Broodwar good.
Everything looks like a toy in SC2 game. Sounds effects are weak and wimpy. Music is bland and unmemorable. Kerrigan is space Jesus now. They were so focused on making this a "e-sport" that forgot to actually make it FUN.
To think Blizzard made some of my favorite games. Now they only make me depressed.
>>337620730
Kongdoo is still organizing leagues on Afreeca, with great viewership and Kongdoo is a big company.
These events pretty much get more viewers than SC2 nowadays, even 100k once in a while, these people are 99.9% Korean though.
Maybe a 500 foreigners watching?
Brood War is not what it used to be, but it's still prettt popular in Korea and will probably stay a thing for quite some time.
However in the west it's like it's been for half a decade. Stone cold dead. Had like one 2000$ tournament a few months back in the non-Korean scene, that was fun... I guess.
>>337608458
Damn nigga he hit a nerve
>>337621372
wasn't there going to be a league with english commentary? is that already over or did it get cancelled?
>>337621082
Worse graphics, way worse
>>337621082
SC2 is trimmed down, but honestly it's not as bad as people claim.
The skill level is still autistically huge, but not AS autistically huge.
Brood War has a mich higher skill floor thats for sure. The skill ceilling is impossible to reach either way, but the big difference is the skill floor.
As in the bare minimum to play, and the further skill does less to give you an advantage.
These skill floor differences are everything from auto splitting, to not needing to send every individual worker to mine every few seconds, having more than 3 save screen, no multi building selection.
But honestly I kinda understand why these things were put into SC2, they had to do it.
However it makes BW a competatively superior game. Though SC2 is still pretty fucking hard.
>>337620558
Yeah, you're right. Still, just having the ability to queue production in multiple buildings simultaneously, or being able to set way-points directly to resource gathering, and other shit like that would go a long way to making a game less ridiculous to play.
>>337621082
>>337621842
Also most players who have played RTS and specifically SC claim extensively claim that they find Brood War MUCH more enjoyable.
For newer players who haven't learned the game and aren't used to older games with a high skill floor tend to prefer SC2.
>>337621082
Because they enjoyed SC1 back in the day more than they enjoyed SC2.
SC1 was also more spread out and less focused on big game-deciding engagements.
But yeah, SC2 is better now.
SC1 basically turned into breaking a poorly hacked 90's game down and exploit everything as much as humanly possible. Nobody actually played the game, they just watched cyborgs do it.
Interesting read:
http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/the-starcraft-path-finding-hack
>>337621827
No it did not get canceled, also the English cast got a fair few viewers.
You do have to understand that in the current space of Brood War we sometimes have dry spells between these really big leagues with hifh prize pools. It'll get announced soon, probably a few months off, in the meantime there are LOADS of tournaments happening concurrently all the time, but they are all small scale everything from 50$ showmatches to smaller 10,000$ leagues
>>337620558
The control group limit also made it so the more units you had, the harder it is to control your army and still keep your economy going (specially true for zerg). This forced you to play more agressively with your units, and meant that the player's own skill and mechanic ability were the soft cap for their macro.
I think removing this is a big part of why almost every match of SC2 ever is all about two big maxed out armies that crumple up in a ball dancing around each other.
>>337622213
>B ut yeah, SC2 is better now.
Well, that's very subjective, loads of people would disagree.
SC2 and BW are very different games, whike they have similarities they appeal to different people.
I agree that SC2 is some of the best it's been, but that's in terms of the appeal SC2 has, not BW.
There are many things BW does better, and it has a very different appeal.
>>337622659
I don't think so, I'd blame the improved path-finding and smarter targeting AI that allowed for more effective DPS spread to be the cause of the deathball meta.
You Brood Wars faggots are the real reason RTSes flop hard. Devs listen to your bullshit and keep imitating a two decade old game, almost identically.
What they should really be doing is knocking off Supreme Commander, (And by extension TA), a game with
> Incredibly intuitive roles - Gee I wonder what the T1 artillery does
> Balanced factions seeing as they're all about the same with certain minor strengths and weaknesses
> Incredible expandability - there are a lot of unit roles unfulfilled in Supreme Commander to build off of, and plenty of archetypes to expand upon
And most importantly
> Massive scale and spectacle
Ensuring that faggots will want to watch games of it.
>>337610287
>>337623004
Is Supreme Commander even good?Which one of them should I start with?
>>337622659
It also gives the player who is behind a bit of an edge, since it's easier to control a smaller army, meaning that it's more likely to have a comeback purely with godly control.
>>337622635
For instance one thing I like more about BW is the defensive advantage, and positioning via high ground, no matter how you change SC2 that's simply not a part of the game
Me ----» >>337622956
>>337623190
It's pretty gud, it's in my top 3 with brood wars andCoh2
>>337623370
>Coh2
Isn't that game really shit, though? I've played the first one and the first expansion and I loved it but I never tried the second game since I couldn't stop hearing horror stories from it.
>>337623004
>instead of copying the most successful game ever they should copy a shitty game no one played
excellent plan you are really good at this
>>337623190
Forged Alliance. Goes on sale on Steam for £3 regularly, or you could get the one with the original as well if you want to play the proper campaign, though FA has its own campaign, with the new FA units of course.
Get FA Forever to play multiplayer. Serves as a bugfix patch, multiplayer client and mod manager.
And yes. Or at least, it's really really huge. The smallest map size is 5*5 kilometres. The largest is 81*81KM. Naval warfare and air combat is very well realised, though some factions have a distinct advantage on Naval maps due to having widespread Hover land units.
I honestly just want a SupCom remake with modern graphics, better controls, more units and actual active support. Planetary annihilation came close but it still isn't the same. I also really fucking love the 4-tech system and I don't know why more games don't copy it. SupCom is the only game I've ever seen do it.
>>337623647
> Popularity = good
> I haven't heard of anything not mass marketed
It's objectively better, and I do mean that
>>337622994
Yup for instance non projectile ranged units like marines never overfire. They literally operate like a hive mind never shooting at smth more than necessary. They are perfectly cordinated
In BW units like marines would overfire, meaning that they'd overkill units all the time.
This is specifically noticable and stupid with tanks in BW they all shoot the nearest unit and everything around it just melted due to splash, which was awesome to see! Now they just lerfectly cordinate and carpet bomb everything.
Pet peeve, they don't even overfire when you select all of them and attack 1 unit, even if nothing else is in range, this is particularly annoying when trying to kill invisible units by positioning your own units like marines, next to them when you have no detection.
It's pretty stupid if you think about it, tank pilots are perfectly cordinated and know exactlu how many of them need to fire to shell a terran in a marine suit?
>>337623190
IMO objectively the best RTS I've played
>>337605660
its not a bad game at all, it's ok. dont think it's as amazing as you say it is, but it's ok. wish they'd add widescreen support already this game is fucking unplayable.
>>337623647
yes churning out endless modern warfare clones is what saved FPS games from stagnation
>>337622956
Yeah, different games.
How is Starbow though? Does it manage to capture that BW feel?
>>337623321
How is not high ground a part of SC2?
>>337623510
people were mad about dlc or some shit also russians nuked the scores because the campaign said soviets were assholes, I wish I was kidding and I wish I still had my folder of screencaps of russian reviews
there's a ton of factions now and the price is much lower, next time it's on sale I suggest you give it a shot
>>337624182
It's amazing in a different way than you think.
Graphic, interface is nothing to write home about.
However strategically and competatively it's arguably the best RTS on the market (Competatively almost undoubtfully)
>>337623647
So I guess that's why the two or three unsuccessful SupCom ripoffs recently have been incredibly successful basically just by mentioning "Supreme Commander" while BW clones are a dime a dozen and nobody cares about any of them.
>>337624434
Honestly, I think you could put any bunch of autists like the ones that played BW or SMB:M playing any game and they could make a competitive game out of it.
these are games that become entirely unlike what they were meant to be when they are played at a competitive level
>>337622635
so it already happened? are there vods that I can watch of it?
>>337623510
Only have around 1000 hours in them, game mechanically their around the same, Coh2 has a few quality of life improvements and the coming balance patch seems to be headed in the right direction. I feel in a lot of cases Coh2 requires far more aggressive tactics than Coh1 called for, even defensive play asks for the player to constantly be pushing the front-line forward. RNG is also less of a bitch in Coh2 (even less so with the unreleased patch). There are some hardcore Coh1 fans that would disagree, I wouldn't hold it against them.
Bulletin system is useless, some of the best commanders are still box-standard ones (shock-rifle, guard motor, Luftwaffe, airborne). Ostheer is something else, though I don't understand the meta behind that faction, anything with a tiger or command panzer?
>>337624241
Units miss 48% of the time when shooting uphill.
Essentially they deal 50% less damage. And the RNG doesn't really matter once 40 or more units are shooting as it averages out pretty well.
If it's a small scale enagagement with 2-3 units you can roll the dice and let the RNG gods decide, but if you are a player attacking uphill early game without a big advantage you are shit anyway.
In practical terms units do half as much damage when shooting to high ground, in SC2 all you don't have is vision, but DPS is the same, meaning that you can't make comebacks as easily by smartly engaging your opponent.
Once it's over in SC2 it's over. In BW you can still often outplay your opponent from way behind if you play considerably better.
Starbow is way different, loses a lot. It's a fun thing, but it's like a shitty off spring of SC2 and BW it doesn't know what it is, and fails at both.
It is a fun mod though
>>337624434
If we count the amoun t of actual interest BW gets as a good comp scene then surely FA Forever should count?
SupCom has way more tactical and strategic options. Naval bombardment is frequently viable, but you need to worry about your ships getting sunk - cruisers are weak, but get one along early and you can do serious damage. Send a destroyer and you'll keep it alive longer. The game is filled with decisions like that, and convenience features reduce APM importance. Templates, for example, and automatic ferries (Apparently the single most hard to code feature in the game)
No game has ever come close to matching the scale and awe of combined arms that SupCom has.
>>337624981
I see.
Honestly, seems a little drastic coming from SC2 but I guess its just because its what I am used to.
> In BW you can still often outplay your opponent from way behind if you play considerably better.
Yeah, partly from the scale (SC2 mostly played from less bases right?) but also I guess from the sheer difficulty of controlling bigger ammounts of units unlike in SC2
>>337623004
way to prove that you have no idea what you're talking about. games like TA and AoE where factions are mostly the same except for minor differences end up being extremely imbalanced because everyone just plays the faction that has the best minor difference. having tons of gimmick units just means they either never get used or there's a ton of cheese strats. massive scale is terrible for observers since everything looks like ants and games take 3 hours to finish.
the rts genre turned away from the starcraft model since even before warcraft 3. pretty much every semi-popular non-starcraft 2 rts that gets played these days sells itself on not being like starcraft.
>>337625201
How long can finding a game in FAF take? 1v1?
I'd like to take a minute to mention that all projectiles in Supreme Commander are physically simulated with bullet drop. Turrets take time to turn and fast units can literally dodge bullets. Missiles can theoretically hit air units.
>>337624801
The Tasteless and Artosis cast of the finals. It's Bisu vs Effort. A testament that the BW scene is still a thing, considering Bisu is probably the best Protoss player of all time with 3 MSLs, and Effort actually won an OSL off of Flash one of the few people to manage that.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q70hUy7m2JY
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/502662-vnsl-finals-bisu-vs-effort
I think you can find a better VOD on the Afreeca page, but I can't access it from my mobile.
>>337625552
In my experience 5v5s tend to take less than 5 minutes to fill.
On a 1v1 probably like 2,3 minutes considering Elo
>>337625650
was that the game where the loser lost his eyebrows? I watched that, but at the end it said there was going to be a new league with english commentary for the whole thing. did that never end up happening?
>Warcraft 3
>deep and complex game based on precise micro, delicate game of creeping and subtle balance of experience distribution
>100/10 best game ever made
>Starcraft: BW
>DUDE SHUTTLE DROP LMAO KILL THEM WORKERS
>DUDE WE NEED 10 MORE EXPANDS LMAO
>DUDE THIS GAME IS PRACTICALLY ECONOMIC STRATEGY DO WE EVEN NEED UNITS
>DUDE DAT 500 APM MICRO BECAUSE UI SUCKS DOGCOCK
Fuck Starcraft
>>337605660
way more perfect and intuitive is mowas2 ALSO ITS HISTORICAL OKAY srsly just play a real game senpai thats actually made in this fucking century senpai
>>337625812
> Warcraft 3
> The game nobody played because everybody played DOTA instead
> Single handely killed RTS games
THANKS WARCRAFT 3
>>337626049
Wc3 always had stronger Bnet LADDER peaks than BW, dumbshit. Starcraft only dominated in South Korea
>>337625979
It's also clunky as shit and almost exactly identical to the previous MoW game which is almost exactly identical to MoW which is almost exactly identical to FoW which I believe may be exactly exactly identical to SoW.
>>337625404
Also this>>337623321
And for other reasons, defenders advantage is way bigger. AI is weird for instance soo perfectly prepositioned units beat units that stream in.
It's even hard to move up a narrow ramp if you don't know what you are doing.
For numerous reasons defender's advantage is WAY bigger in BW.
They wanted to mitigate this in SC2 first by adding the mothership core then adding the overcharge abilityM because with warp in there was no defender's advantage in PvP.
Now it's a bit better, but I think these two mechanics are still band aids, not a real fix to the problem.
+ I'd still prefer an even larger defender's advantage.
In SC2 when a player gets an advantage he pushes in and wins, in BW ESPECIALLY if you aren't very good it's better to expand and contain until you overpower him with sheer micro (This does give the better player more time to get an advantage).
For instance if you are a newer player to BW, it's often a bad idea to engage your opponent into defensive positions without much practice and research how to break an encamped player because it's quite likely you'll throw your 20 dragoons into 4 siege tanks 2 vultures 6 mines and a few SCVs and lose your 30 supply and army lead.
>>337625812
Everything WC3 had in micro so did BW.
Also WC3 literally was an RNG fest with random items.
Also these shuttle drop could have been easily avoided if you've been looking at the map and had situational awarness.
You being bad at a game doesn't make it bad.
>>337626556
Honestly, I think it is interesting at all, but it encourages turtling too much. I mean, you can macro up take the map and overwhelm eventually I guess, but it is a lot of effort and he will get a lot more mileage out of his units than you. I am also guessing this mostly benefited Terran? Then Protoss, then Zerg?
Also, doesn't this whole thing make air units too good?
Anyway, in SC2 when you have a lead you can push yeah. But the lead has to be pretty significant to just walk in through the main door. Attacking a fortified Terran or Protoss position is never pretty
>>337625795
Bisu and some shitty zerg had a bet that if he losses a match he'll shave his brows before the match with effort.
Soo Bisu fucked around because the guy he was playing was supposed to be shit, but it turned out the guy he was playing was Effort the player who he was facing in the finals.
Bisu lost because he was fucking around/got tricked had to shave his eye brows.
Then play again next week, the same guy in front of 10,000s of viewers for like 50,000$ without his eyebrows.
It was pretty funny.
>>337626794
Is 'hurr git gud' your only argument here, OP? Its getting pathetic
>>337627234
g
i
t
g
u
d
>>337627078
It's not, but BW defender's advantage is way stronger.
A 200 pop protoss army can't break a 6 siege tank ramp with a few supply depots without losing like 80% of your army for no good reason.
I mean you can do it, but unless you know a 100% you'll win. It's better to make an extra shuttle and zealot bomb the tanks or wait for recall.
Not it doesn't make air units too powerful.
It does make Muta micro and picking of marines an art form, but no.
Also carrier micro is also pretty beautiful.
>>337625650
At the end of that video, it says:
>StarCraft Brood War League will continue in 2016
>One in first half and another in the second half
Has that happened yet?
In SupCom, turtling is pretty much unviable. N matter how many turrets or air defenses you build they WILL get through. You are forced to at least react because of limited range tactical weapons - TMLs launch powerful missiles on command, but need to be built and need to build missiles. TMDs help but enough will still overwhelm you. And they won't shoot down (Slower firing and less mobile) artillery shells. Shields help but won't last long. If all else fails, strategic missiles still exist.
>Starcraft
>good
Supcom pushed the genre forward so far, and SC2 pulled it right back.
Brood War was good back in the day, but static, tiny, apm based games are not how rts should have evolved.
BFME II
F
M
E
I
I
>>337627234
I've played WC3
> Human Tower rush.
I guess the get good argument doesn't apply here? Because the strategy is total bullshit and takes way more skill to defend than to execute.
You are being a hypocrite here.
Is it too late to get into Brood War? Can I become Korean level at this point?Does Brood War have the highest skill ceiling of any game ever?
>>337627758
I think there is room for everything.
And honestly, I always get a chuckle out of players that basically say that RTS should be all macro and strategy and zero micro and actually real time elements. At that point you are just playing a retard's TBS/4X
>>337627685
It will. There are several month long breaks between these events.
Considering that they pull in better viewership than SC2. They'll be fine.
Also there are smaller tournaments in between the big ones.
Apparently Flash will participate in the next KSL.
Hoping that's true because he got back into his godly form quite quickly after his SC2 hiatus.
>>337627953
Play SC2
>Can I become Korean level at this point?
No. Even if you are Korean
>>337628060
> Actually wanting spastic action clickfests where your chances of success is determined solely by your ability to execute the optimal sequence the fastest and best
>>337626794
>Everything WC3 had in micro so did BW.
Tell me more senpai
Did Starcraft have
>creeping
>creep steal
>items
>item distribution
>dozens of varous abilities and counter-abilities used in every battle
>surround mechanics
>blocking mechanics
>hero harass
>exp denial
>tower rushing
>herokill
>mercenary/shop war
>various types of attack/armour that required dynamic play off the opponent
?
>>337628430
Its not the only factor. You don't need incredible APM to get to diamond.
If you don't want to learn to execute build orders efficiently, you don't want to micro in real time or any of this shit RTS games are really not for you.
Even more macro oriented RTS games have this.
Here's an idea: Bots/Infantry automatically strafe around to avoid gunfire and kite tanks to dodge the shells. In return, most armored vehicles get fast rotating but very weak machine guns.
Ok, i need to know this for research purposes.
http://www.strawpoll.me/10214856
I played a lot of starcraft in my youth but was always terrible. Still, it's one of my favourite games ever and I kind of want to get back into it. What race would you recommend for someone with ~50 apm?
>>337627953
I mean theoretically you can, but you probably won't.
The skill ceilling is pretty high at this point, the game has been refined for 17 years.
Funny thing in 1999 people didn't even use hotkeys in tournaments and did just fine, pretty funny.
However nowadays the best players stream on Afreeca 24/7 soo it's pretty easy to get their VODs and imitate them.
Here is a random video I found of by.hero one of the best zergs in Brood War right now. I found it within two seconds with a youtube search:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrP0wjDpe_M&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Before the SC2 transition, teams wouldn't let you get ahold of a practise video like this over their dead bodies, now there are thousands of them on YT, since fans have been archiving them.
>>337628919
Protoss is a slow shits primary choice
>>337607007
whos bright idea was it to make the designer a guy who worked on command and conquer?
>>337628919
Protoss.
Like any other race the skill ceilling is huge, but on the lower skill chart Protoss are kinda OP, later on that's not quite true.
However Terran in my opinion is the most fun to play while the hardest to learn.
Also you are missing out on TvZ which is pure ecstacy
>>337612984
>Take us into orbit, Mr. Malmsteen. We've seen enough.
>that soundtrack
goosebumbs everytime
>>337629259
>>337610875
>Even most pros can't do it.
how hard is it to press 1 + mouse click followed immediately by 2 + mouse click?
>>337628919
>>337629084
>>337629249
Protoss is a good place to start.
Also here is an old video back from 2009, but pretty relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3pqQ-bfT1A&feature=youtube_gdata_player
The guy playing was B+ on ICCUP which is for all intense and purposes super good for a non-korean (utter trash for Korean).
There is an old playlist of pretty good English players on Nevake's channel.
If you basically learn from these videos and copy you have a huge head start on most lower ranks on a server like ICCup, where you should play.
Or here>>337606797 once it gets running
>>337628607
People who categorically hate APM are the type that like playing against the AI and turtling for 3 hours before rolling over the whole map.
A tactic like this will never work online so they blame the game instead of themselves.
>supcom FA
>not infinitely superior to every other RTS
IS THIS THREAD STILL ALIVE?
>>337629761
I think APM is a factor, it is impossible to make APM irrelevant, but the game should not gimp the player to make them take more actions. Surely the strategy in an RTS extends past clicking quickly. Features like Assist, Patrol, Ferry, Templates, etc, help a lot
>>337629508
Sorry for a shitty old video, but the answer is pretty hard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_wXCl7e4Pc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Also see>>337616823
The 12 unit selection limit or whatever it was, completely sucked balls.
>>337630143
That's fine. The other dude said they should never require over 20 or 25 apm or some shit. That's a button press every 3 seconds. That is an absolute glacial pace. When was the last time you were pressing buttons that slowly outside of a turn based game.
>>337630143
I love the apm part, honestly, I love playing my heart out in a 40-50 minute game, it's one of the most catharsic things I've done in my life.
RTS have strategy, but that diesn't mean they have the same appeal as pure strategy games.
A big part of RTS is finding a build order and going through many iterations until you perfect it, your execution and every detail.
Day9 did a great podcast series on this back in 2008 I think
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Day(9)_Podcasts#Ordered_by_Release_Date
Why you should play agaist worse players, is particularly memorable. Pretty captivating, but then again it could be just me.
Give it a try it's like 20 minites and a great listen, maybe it will change your mind.
>>337630918
Day9 used to be pretty hardcore, played in WCG back from 2001 to like 09. Now he literally lives with his cats and plays Hearthstone
Brood war was the LoL to zero hours dota back when
>>337631664
>plays Hearthstone
Disgusting
>>337631702
Zero Hours came out like half a decade later, though.
>>337631907
Ehh maybe he deserves it, at this point he gets free money from yt and twitch while developing his own RTS.
He used to be really hardcore though;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJztfsXKcPQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Really good listen.
>tfw Warcraft 3 was my shit and played Multiplayer regularly
>Had such a blast controlling small armies and Heroes
>Starcraft 2 is too build order intense and frankly fast paced for me
>DOTA is a fucking joke, a lobotomized version of my favorite RTS
>No one even cares about WC3 anymore and Blizzard will never make a WC4 since MOBAs are the new shit
Life is suffering.
>>337632616
I love WC3 and BW equally.
BW multiplayer <3
WC3 campaign/mapmaking scene <3
Hope Blizzard decides to stop fucking around and makes Warcraft 4
BW 4 lyfe.
