How do we fix the mmo genre?
The MMO genre is perfectly fine. WoD has 6 million subscribers and is fun as hell. When Legion comes out WoWs sub numbers will shoot up to 10m+ and stay there for years.
>>337470224
Legion is looking great
delete it
*unsheathes katana*
>>337471505
t. shill
>>337471613
what's great about it?
I'm playing Return of Reckoning. Yes game isn't perfect but for some reason it fullfuls my "MMOs were better before" quirk even better than vanilla wow
>>337470224
getting a better PC would be a start
>>337471505
>WoD has 6 million subscribers
WoD was given away for free.
I only bought Vanilla and Burning Crusade, last week Blizz went and gave me everything for free. Made and played a Gobblin, bumped my old Warlock to 90, got bored, never touched the thing for the next five days of the free period.
>>337471613
Still has garrisons, lfg, horrible community split between servers aka no community, atrocious leveling, easy as fuck, everything is utter shit. But please tell me why it is great?
>>337473480
I cringed
I thnk I'm going to die of old age before an MMO besides PWI releases a good summoner class.
>>337472338
I realize WAR is very PvP centric but going from a decently scripted Vanilla WoW server to a game where the PvE was tacked on and rushed out at the end of development AND ignored completely by the RoR devs is quite painful
>>337474069
>PWI
Fuck, that game. The gameplay was so shitty both in PvE and PvP, the quests were só goddamn generic, the classes are incredibly broken and don't serve their roles in order to follow the PvE meta (melee archers, tanking assassins, what the fuck), yet it still had a special charm
>>337470224
You don't.
MMOs gradually died with WoW and MS setting the 'themepark makes money' as the vibe.
No one is willing to take risks so they follow those formulas with slight changes that they think will bring people in.
The Y:Online comic sums this up as good as ever. It's the same shit but they promise you somthing new, come through with it halfassed and otherwise it's another game where you swing at something haphazardly and numbers go up. They'll tell you there's dodging or some shit like that but in the end it's all some shitty numbers games.
Please stop making this thread every day because it's just used for WoW/FFXIV shills to claim that the genre is still doing good by number of subs when it's not and both of those are examples of extremely shitty MMOs.
>>337474703
And, like I said, it's the only fucking MMO I've found with a good summoner class.
And it's great flight system.
>>337472338
Thank you for this bro,
Played the retail years ago and have been waiting to re-live it!
>>337474849
Even shitty MMOs like that definitely will do a few things right.
FlyFF had a good flight system but was otherwise complete shit too.
>>337474813
>Please stop making this thread every day
fuck yourself bud
>>337470224
do away with hotkey combat because it always devolves into googling your rotation these days
remove non-boss PvE combat and possibly leveling and EXP altogether, nobody ever liked it
remove grinding for other resources, nobody ever liked it
so basically it's completely irredeemable
>>337474930
Well, the thread just ends up with the same shills shilling shitty games, and it's not like there is a solution to this. It's something that needs a grand departure from theme park MMO, thinly veiled p2w schemes, gachapon shit, shitty enemies with shitty AI hat become number sinks, poor skills that just are "Monster has X HP and every now and then a weak spot you can target", instead of anything substantial.
They're scared though because anything more complex or sandbox will either:
A)Get watered down to the point it's themepark (ArcheAge) and thus those who wanted something more hate it, and those who wanted another MMO dislike the sandbox portions
B)Stay too niche to make real money (Haven and Hearth, Wurm Online, Ultima Online)
They also take a lot more manpower to work.
>>337470224
>How do we fix the mmo genre?
port Dragon's Dogma Online to the west
>>337475193
PvE has it's place, but themepark 'level up to be able to beat X' is fucking garbage. Alternative leveling system and monsters that aren't confined to 'higher level areas' are required. Roaming mobs would be a great start. Higher level mobs being found in areas as well as lower level (like EQ) would be good as well.
No one likes "This area is like 40-49" areas, that shit is played out. Played one themepark MMO, played 'em all. It has to have a very captivating story and maps to be worth a shit at this point.
>>337475193
>hotkey combat is bad because an optimal dps rotation exists
>>337475193
>do away with hotkey combat because it always devolves into googling your rotation these days
and replace it with what? 'knowing' your rotation is only necessary in raid content in wow, literally nobody cares about what you're doing at any other time. not to mention if you have to google it, you're probably retarded because you supposedly spent a lot of time getting to know your class as you level.
>remove non-boss PvE combat and possibly leveling and EXP altogether, nobody ever liked it
so you only kill bosses? what the fuck does that mean? the meat of RPG's is killing lots of stuff. xp is also core to RPG gameplay.
>remove grinding for other resources, nobody ever liked it
people like grinding resources because it makes them money.
Put a combat system intoFurcadia. Autistic furries will make their own MMO.Then rip it off.
>>337475501
everybody looks it up to maximize DPS, which removes any decision making from the combat
>>337471505
its funny how people still shit on WoW. sure they lose subscribers every year but the fact that they are still at 5million+, have been around since what, 2004? and its still a paid subscription? thats still a pretty amazing feat.
especially since all those "wow killers" that have been releasing in the past years all failed and were forced to go f2p.
even if you hate wow or just hate blizzard in general, you gotta admit, WoW is a pretty damn successful mmo.
>>337475501
How is that a hard thing to understand. It makes combat an autopilot act devoid of decision making. Are you actually stupid?
>>337475758
There's an optimal damage dealing rotation in any combat system you can think of. What makes a combat system good is if it's fun, complex, and difficult to do in a unorthodox scenario like PvP. A well-designed hotkey system can encompass all three of those things.
MMOs are a dying breed. To have a real MMO experience the game needs to be centered around community, resources, exploration and reliance on others to survive in a hostile environment. There is no longer a sense of wonder when exploring something since everything revolves around checklists quests and if a company doesn't make things extremely accessible there is no reason for it to do well. MMOs have become single player games that have shitty content until you beat it. Then you unlock the grinding metagame they set up at the end to keep people playing. Even if there's a satisfying fight that requires teamwork, at the end of the day you might as well play another videogame with how little the MMO aspect comes into play. Most games have leveling and progression while revolving around instanced combat with a bunch of other players as well without having a pay to play model or needing to sink in 200 hours before being allowed to access it. The thing that "killed" the MMO is the idea of competition. No one has the patience to play a deep experience anymore and those that do cannot make a functional enough community.
>>337475885
>It makes combat an autopilot act devoid of decision making
World of Warcraft even to this day still has tons of decision making in its combat.
>>337470224
Remove all cross-server interactions and grouping without any actual communication. Make the leveling experience PART OF THE EXPERIENCE, and not just a nuisance task on the way to the real game of endgame content. Do those two things and the genre is much healthier.
>>337475859
Yeah and Mikey Cyrus is a successful musician
>>337476264
I loved GW2 because the leveling experience was the MOST fun I've ever had. Problem was the endgame was nonexistant-horrible. The WvW and arena-style matchmaking PvP was enjoyable, however. PvE endgame was severely lacking
>>337476384
I agree with you completely, I found GW2's leveling experience to be some of the best I've played in quite awhile. Unfortunately, the rest of the game, especially the pve dungeons were just so unbelievably bad it was pathetic. They did the same thing as WoW clones, just backwards. All leveling, no endgame.
Never sell anything that gives the buyer ANY sort of advantage over someone who didn't make that purchase.
Make progression a lengthy, difficult, yet rewarding process.
Have gold sinks for game longevity.
Reward players for completing extraordinary tasks.
Implement in-depth crafting & non-combat skill systems.
Make PvP a thing again.
Balance the fucking game.
>>337472338
It had the best lore.
Ork starting zone is best zone.
RIP aging of your characters.
tfw you won't play a dwarf and get to see his beard grow
>>337476579
Wow does all of that besides #1
>>337476264
>Make the leveling experience PART OF THE EXPERIENCE,
It is in WoW. You can level up easily by just using dungeons and battlegrounds and it's a lot of fun. It's much better than the horseshit grinding of mobs you had to do in the past.
>>337476837
So instantly boosting your character to 10 levels away from max is a "lengthy, difficult, yet rewarding process"?
>>337470224
>How do we fix the mmo genre?
Move it to PlayStation 4. Worked well for every other genre.
>>337476837
>Wow
>difficult
>rewarding
>in-depth crafting
>PvP
>Balance
>>337476837
> pvp
> balanced
>in depth crafting
> lengthy, rewarding progress
Yeah nah, and to top off it off you can pay cash for gold, not p2w fully (Oh eait heirlooms)
The MMO genre will be better as soon as WoW's model finally fails completely
>>337476964
I don't know which era of WoW you're thinking about, but leveling in the last few expansions has been dogshit and just an x-hour stopgap on the way to the actual game.
>>337476318
>Mikey Cyrus is a successful musician
True
>>337476579
>Never sell anything that gives the buyer ANY sort of advantage over someone who didn't make that purchase.
>Make progression a lengthy, difficult, yet rewarding process.
That basically means that whoever started at launch is going to have a permanent advantage over everyone who started later.
>>337472737
>still has garrisons
nope
>lfg
who cares
>split community
true
>leveling woes
who gives a fuck
nostfags could at least pretend they're not nostfags
>>337475859
Everybody admits WoW is successful. That doesn't mean it's not shit.
>>337470224
You can't because genre is dependent on its community and MMORPG players have turned to pure cancer.
>>337477238
to the point where even Blizzard's designers admit it's broken. If Blizzard fucks something up so bad that even they admit they fucked up. Shit is really fucking fucked
>>337477238
Right now you can easily lvl up by just doing dungeons and bgs.
>>337470224
First things first: there should be NO advantage whatsoever gained from cooperating or interacting with other people. I want to play alone, with others.
>>337475859
And Runescape is about to surpass WoW now in terms of subscribers.
>>337477385
>"Make sure to pre-order the upcoming expansion; World of Warcraft: who gives a fuck"
>>337477535
You didn't read the original post that this is about did you? I said make the leveling experience part of the actual experience of the game, not just some waste of time on the way to the part of the game that the devs actually care about, endgame.
>>337472338
WAR wasn't that good, but when it worked it fucking WORKED. Shame it was also the definition of a rushed game with cut content and overall lack of focus. I'm surprised it of all cancelled MMORPGs got a private server going on.
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/
>dat feel when you saw player cap grow from 150 to 1400
Surprised it's doing so well, to be honest.
>>337477516
Yep. I sort of agree that the rise of things like wikis have really ruined a lot of what made MMOs great.
When information is too readily available you don't need to talk to anyone to learn anything.
>>337477613
This kind of thinking is exactly what killed the MMO genre.
>>337477535
>dungeon
>1-2 people in heirlooms powerbomb the entire dungeon, if you're quick you can watch
>pvp
>random dude in heirlooms cockslaps you if you even leave your corpse
Heirlooms fucked the leveling experience, a few of my friends and I made low lvl hunters just to lolseehowbad and our worst score among us was like 45-3
No skill, zero fun
>>337477739
All I remember from RvR was the AoE spam.
>>337477739
I'm downloading this now.
gon be good.
thanks for reminding me anon
>tfw still playing Flyff only because of nostalgia
i can be a loli tho
>Play Runescape for a few months
>Today just don't feel like it and feel like I'm grinding for nothing
>Realize no-one ever talks outside of fcs and I'm playing two accounts at the same time just to "progress"
>Play an old MMO I haven't played in ages
>Completely dead and I really enjoy the combat and the community it had along with the classes
>Look up other MMOs
>Either dead or I don't like the mechanics
Being a MMO addict is suffering
>>337477613
> I want to play alone
So you want single player games?
Prove this wrong. Protip: you can't.
>Losing gear = crafting
>Crafting = income / value
>Reward = grouping and danger
It would be really simple tossing some dungeon bosses (that don't get utilized) into the land, tuning their HP and damage for X party members, and plausibly making them capturable for a circular tug of war. The crafting mats and bosses (that also drop mats) are placed in a single zone until it's full (then in an adjacent zone) and depleted, and the players come together and push each other around the map until they get a bunch of bosses to a city.
>but it would be camped
It can't be camped if the next boss spawns semi-randomly in another zone.
>but flying
Fuck flying.
>but just bring over raid/PvP gear
Reading comprehension. That would completely undermine the design.
>but it's tedious
And doing nothing in a garrison isn't? Getting cool affixes and being OP as fug isn't super fun?
>>337470224
Stop making these fucking threads every day. They always end up with Sandbox MMO faggots crying their asses off that games don't cater to their NEET asses anymore.
>>337472223
Fun story
World Quests
Dungeons are relevant
Lfg gives peasant gear
Raids look gr8
Suramar is pushed by Story and Quests rather than gear
Professions are getting revamped
1-60 questing getting improved significantly
Artifacts and quest halls are good and bad at the same time tho
>>337478442
Damn, this game is still up?
>>337475501
If you have an optimal DPS rotation for every fight, you have a shitty design you could macro with auto-hotkey that amounts to toggling DPS on/off.
Good design is about requiring the player to read the situation and adapt what they're doing to be successful, not spamming a button that does the same thing over and over again. It's shit they figured out years ago. Characters had auto attack and you didn't have mash buttons to keep your character active. You spent combat timing abilities and reading the situation, not spamming a rotation like it's something that is difficult to do.
>>337471505
>>337475859
WoW includes Chinese subs that don't actually pay a sub or buy xpacs, but instead get cards that don't expire unless played. Source: quarterly results.
>>337477739
The SWG private server/recreation was going strong last I checked
What is wrong with Themepark MMOs? They are incredibly successful. If they truly were bad then they wouldn't sell good.
I just WoW's endgame, Tera's combat system and BnS' waifusimulator.
>>337478708
have you been posting this for literal years now? it feels like it
you're fucking stupid if you think this will magically fix wow, but it's not a terrible idea to base an entirely new game around.
>>337478868
The official one is dead as fuck.
Private servers for some reason are still alive, I'm playing on InsanityFlyff, ~1k average players online.
>>337478708
I always see you post this and I never quite understand it. By 'free roam' do you mean just content out in the world? Would regular raid/arena gear be unusable out in the world?
>>337470224
when we stop doing this
How much hours of playtime must you invest in a MMO to get your satisfactions worth?
>>337479060
>private server for a game you love
I'm jelly as fuck. City of Heroes/Villains private server never ever.
it'll never be 2005 again.
>>337477692
What about dungeon running and battlegrounds is not part of the actual experience? I've enjoyed and still enjoy both much more than any questing PVE I've done in WoW or any other MMO, including GW2.
>>337478140
What were you expecting with a pre-made group with good gear for the level and all playing as an OP class PVPing against some random groups? A fairer assessment would have been fighting against another pre-made group.
I've leveled as a Disc priest with a friend and we had tons of fun in both BGs and dungeons. Dungeons were easy, granted, but we mostly tried to get into BGs which got challenging when fighting against pretty good enemy teams. In the old days, this is what I always wanted, but was forced to constantly do tons of grinding to level up to close to the max level of the bracket and even then, I wouldn't receive any experience points for doing something I enjoyed the most.
>>337479140
so.... stop making mmos?
the only reason people play mmos is for the addictiveness of the grind and min/maxing
https://uthgard.org/
The Uthgard DAoC server recently came back and is in open beta for anyone who is craving old DAoC
>>337470224
You can't, because people that want to play online games want to get in on the action as fast as they can. Even the fabled sandbox mmorpgs that everyone praises in these threads were absolute hells before you reached the level cap with the ganks and shit. And the pve stuff is just boring and easy and it's only played for the promise of a reward, when wow started doing welfare shit they lost a lot milions of subscribers. People just prefer short sessions nowadays.
>>337470224
i don't know
But i've been playing ffxiv for nearly two years now and have absolutely loved it.
patch 3.1 was really rough for sure and even the devs admitted fault. but the future looks bright for the game. the next patch putting out twice as much than what's usually given
>>337478757
>1-60 questing getting improved significantly
how
>came back after the new soul updates and shit
>see my skillbars
>remember why RIFT is the best MMO
>try to queue in PVP
>nobody
WHY THE FUCK?
>>337479559
I've burned out on FFXIV within months due to raiding being so unrewarding, all FFXIV does is cater to casual weaboo autists.
Even if you disregard raiding as not being the main focus, everything in FFXIV is still casual garbage.
>>337479838
pic related
>>337478757
>1-60 questing getting improved significantly
i literally just did every 1-60 quest in the one month i tried recently
fug
>>337479392
The point is your first character is a waste, unless you shell out to the almight Blizzord you will be watching other people play the game until 100
>>337479641
They acknowledged that it's broken as fuck, but there have been no details on how they plan on fixing it.
>>337479945
>french
>healer instead of someone who actually fights
Like poetry.EQ2 has just as many abilities.
I hope they go the simulation route. Mostly skillbased and maybe buying some weapons and stuff in-game
Star Citizen looks cool but is taking a while
I'd love a game like arma that has an ongoing full scale war and stuff
>>337479939
>all FFXIV does is cater to casual weaboo autists
i can't even argue with this about you. this is the biggest flaw i'm willing to admit. is that they give in to the complaints of the western playerbase about content being too hard.
there was a statistic board somewhere showing how many japanese players cleared coil compared to north america and Europe and it was embarrassing
>>337480281I main dominator as support/damage but as there is a lack of healers overall and a single healer, even incompetent will make a team win against a better team without healer, I usually play healer in PVP, and dominator when I want to wreck every fucking thing
>>337480276
>>1-60 questing getting improved significantly
>how?
>>I DON'T KNOW BUT THEY WILL IMPROVE IT SO MUCH WOW IS SAVED
>>337478182
>Memory a bit shady but I remember doing level 10 PVPing as a F2P
>Never leveling up and just buying all them expensive upgrades for PVP
>Fucking hitting 800s at level 10 as a warrior or something on the side of chaos
I enjoyed it more than WoW. Coming from someone who played Ragnarok and Runescape.
how soon before someone tries making a vr mmo
>>337480281
>EQ2
I missRPingmy iksarpaladin.
>>337480562
>vr
>>337478476
Dude try Haven & Hearth. If you ever want to try some obscure MMO I'm willing to play with you.
>>337480113
How is this any new? You seem to forget that a lot of people in BGs back in the day were twinks with OP gear, so you were screwed the first time going to max level. Now, as a new player, you can do dungeons easily to get new good gear to be able to compete with people with heirlooms and don't get bothered by twinks.
>>337480628
>iksar
>paladin
>iksar anything but necromancer
>>337480761
>compete with people with heirlooms
bur
>>337480697
vr =/= first person
>>337470224
You can't. MOBAs and social media have made them obsolete
>>337480864
>>337480893
Honestly I can't tell how you'd do a VR game that wasn't 1st person.
>>337480828
I was originally a shadowknight, but my friend I convinced to play was adamant on playing a froglok paladin so I joined him.
>>337479046
>
Your argument.
If it would make a decent fresh game, it would make WoW decent.
>>337479118
That's the idea.
>>337470224
I liked the puzzles in Rift, they were a fine little side thing. Not like it means much, but me and my friend were the world first in Rift to complete all the puzzles, did them all the 1st day the game came out.
Camelot Unchained is the last hope for MMOs
30+ classes, large scale Realm vs Realm combat, leveling up is mostly irrelevant (skill and tactics > numbers), and most importantly there are no fucking PvE carebears
>>337480435
western players don't give a shit about raiding in MMOs, they just want to play waifu dressup.
why do you think MMOs these days put so much emphasis on transmogging and making content accessible to everyone.
>>337479406
Nah. Social gaming, fantasy and visuals (leveling in OG WoW was super fascinating), the challenge of PvP and raiding, etc.
>>337481629
how the fuck is that my argument you selfabsorbed retard
nobody who fucking plays wow wants a realistic immersive disposable gear experience and they never have because if they did they'd fucking play something else
Are there any MMOs that are good/aren't wowclones? I waited ten years for a Ragnarok successor and it ends up shit.
>>337481629
>That's the idea.
I think that'd just push people to avoid the world at all costs. They'd stick to instances to level and end game and avoid the chore that the new system would be altogether.
There's no real incentive to be in the world other than to obtain 'free roam' gear, getting the gear requires a lot of effort, and there's a way to avoid the world altogether.
The idea would work in certain games, but big features like that need the rest of the game to be tailored around them to be good. That idea just doesn't fit in World of Warcraft imo.
>>337482027
>Are there any MMOs that are good/aren't wowclones?
OSRS
I really hate that WoW is 90% of /v/'s first MMO.
We need to deconstruct classes/build narrative story to allow replay value/feelings of uniqueness.
Make the game less about gear and more about achievement.
Make an immersive game where people can feel unique...
>>337482476
Runescape is most people's first MMO.
>>337482614
Nope. It's WoW. That's what got every kid and normalfag into the genre.
>>337476264
Leveling is archaic, and at least in WoW, it was never the main part of the game.. because it's not entertaining in its own right after it's already been completed on a few characters, especially not to justify the content becoming but another low level antiquity.
>>337478140
>>337480761
Low level PvP is OHKO, untuned tripe.
>>337481865
How would they know unless they've played it?
>>337482101
>I think that'd just push people to avoid the world at all costs
Why? They can buy bodygaurds. There's a group finder. They can make money with instancing, and getting fresh gear just requires a blacksmith (plenty work for tips) or the AH. So what if a guild is coming out in greens? They're having fun, and if they can beat some of the lower-end bosses, they can get mats and loot. What does a piece of top level gear from a BS even cost in mats? It's basically nothing.
>to level
This is a max level idea.
>getting the gear requires a lot of effort
Fabricated.
>The idea would work in certain games, but big features like that need the rest of the game to be tailored around them
There are no other features to even implement except maybe an affix profession. Every criticism in this reply has been about 'but muh afking in cities / garrisons', as if there's anything to even experience between raid lockouts. Now it's about this arbitrary 'fit'?
>>337482701
You need to source that because you aint convincing me with this shit. From everyone I've heard, F2P MMOs were always the first anyone played to check out the genre and if they liked the premise, they went ahead and got either , Everquest, WoW or GW.
>>337482614
Runescape was ma first MMO then WoW was discovered with this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1hL_9jiWWY
Couldn't beleive you could play a game that is MMO in 3D and build your own char and fight bosses in 3D perspective.
>>337477349
I don't understand your post. Are you complaining that someone who plays the game more shouldn't be ahead? Newer players can play longer, take advantage of the player market, take advantage of already found knowledge, etc to catch up you know.
>>337482950
>i want to change the entire core gameplay of a game millions (?) of people play to fit exactly what i want even though i don't actually play the game they do
i have no idea why you're so persistent about forcing this onto wow of all things
seriously, go make your own game.
>>337481658
Looks clunky as fuck though. I have more hope for Crowfall, even though it looks more arcady.
>>337480703
>EXP boosts and higher level caps for paying
>In a PvP game where people can steal all your shit
Yeah, no thanks.
>>337483253
What does it mess with? Zones are empty anyway.
>>337470224
I'm a proponent of sandbox MMOs, rather than themepark MMOs. I really got in to the genre during EverQuest and I think that one of the core flaws that we see dominate modern titles is the notion that the individual player is "special" to the narrative. So a few things I'd like to see in the MMO genre change:
>Remove questing as a means of leveling up:
The idea that every player should walk through the same linear quest line and have had the same experience by the time they reach X-Level is literally the cancer killing the genre. Replace questing with "Achievements". As abhorrent as that might sound, consider the implementation: Players leave town/city to play and upon returning NPCs at the local Guild Hall or Tavern would talk about what they'd been doing. Kill 50 wolves? People recognize you as a proficient hunter of wolves. Find a secret location? You're a treasure hunter. Explore an entire zone? An experienced cartographer. Implement tools for players to role play these achievements (actually drawing maps to sell to players would be awesome...). Reward players with gold/experience in much the way quests do, but you let them play their own story and do whatever they wish when out in the world. In this way each player gets to focus on the parts of the world -they- find interesting. They get to explore and conquer and they get to do it because -they- wanted to, not because NPC-X told them to.
>>337483589
>Encourage group play:
Make zones progressively less developed and safe as they move away from central cities. Each of these zones would be split between thematically modest solo-able areas (fields with animals or something) and more thematically interesting group content (a bandit hide out inside a mountain cave) at a rate of roughly 25/75. Have monsters or areas that take a group to defeat or explore generally result in ~10x the experience. Permitting solo play allows players to always feel like they can make progress, but making group play so much more attractive (more interesting content, more areas, faster leveling, better items) you nurture the community. Also tie this into point 1 where players can get achievements for grouping with the same players multiple days in a row (You're part of a well known gang, or something).
>Allow players to role play non-combat-centric experiences:
Those zones that are less developed? Allow players to level up whole classes that revolve around resource and good production (sort of like how FFXIV has whole jobs that craft). The actual process of producing goods would have to be engaging (mini-games for the manual labor, in depth economic principles like making contracts with guilds so they have to buy all of your goods first or something) but allow these merchant players to establish temporary forts/camps in these frontier zones. This reward players with a sense of agency, being able to have a tangible ability to develop and change the world.
>>337483668
>Making exploration difficult and engaging by establishing real risk:
This is the "death penalty" that so many younger players abhor. The fact of the matter is though, if death (or failure) isn't something you REALLY want to avoid, success doesn't mean as much. This can be implemented in various ways, but you always want to take away the exact thing the player was attempting to gain when they chose to take the action that failed: EXP loss when you die (you grind specifically to gain EXP so that's what you take away when they die), crafting materials break when you fail to make something, bad planning will bring an established frontier fort down, so on and so forth.
>Allow for many different avenues of progression:
This can be done in many different ways as well, but examples can be: using certain types of spells will develop them not just in strength (cast Fire enough and the Fire spell will do more damage) but also in function (Cast Fire spell enough, and it'll eventually get so hot that it adds a DoT burn, or makes enemies panic, or damages equipment, or whatever). This can also be done by adding in NPC "quests" (I know, I just said get rid of those... but wait!) in the form of allowing the players to assume specific roles in the society: Join the army and get issued missions. Become a sailor and have missions to take out a boat (preferably your own boat...) and find/deliver/slay whatever. The game simply needs to reinforce multiple different interests by letting the player's take fundamentally different options (you don't get army missions to do army stuff -unless you join the army-). Note that these options should also limit the player in some way. A decorated soldier of a nation should be punished for PvPing against members of his own nation, for instance.
>>337482950
>Why? They can buy bodygaurds. There's a group finder. They can make money with instancing, and getting fresh gear just requires a blacksmith (plenty work for tips) or the AH. So what if a guild is coming out in greens? They're having fun, and if they can beat some of the lower-end bosses, they can get mats and loot. What does a piece of top level gear from a BS even cost in mats? It's basically nothing.
People already have/had their reasons to play WoW. This system is alien, like an entirely different game that would overwrite the old game in the overworld. It wouldn't be World of Warcraft mechanically and most people would steer clear. There's no real incentive unless you just feel like getting the best set of degradeable gear.
>>337483049
I remember when I was like 10 watching a Kim Possible episode where they're basically playing a MMO. A few days later a friend talks about Runescape and I try it and it blew me away.
Then I lost some shit from a scam after I spent like 2 hours collecting feathers for and I learned people are assholes.
>>337483767
The entire goal of this system is to foster a community that interacts with each other, while allowing the player to right their own story. The goal of an MMO should be to allow grand adventures that are wholly -yours-. When you play a single player RPG, everyone has the same boss fights and meets the same NPCs. The GREAT stories we all tell each other about our MMO days are when we did "this one crazy thing, and jesus you'd never believe it! You had to be there!".
I'd love to see an MMO that did these things.
>>337483589
Your "Achievements" are still just quests. Even if you hide them from players people will just make a list of them and put them on the internet. If anything you would just encourage people to google information and nothing else.
>>337483589
This.
I just want to be some chump adventurer, not the chosen one destined to defeat the ancient evil.
Legion looks particularly egregious in that regard, what with Legendaries out the wazoo, and the likes of the Ashbringer, the Scythe of Elune, and the Doomhammer, among others, being given out to literally anybody.If WoW hadn't jumped the shark before, they definitely have now,
>>337483021
WoW had a free trial and was cheap as fuck to buy
>>337482614
runescape was for the kids whose parents wouldnt buy a WoW subscription for them
>>337472737
>LF3M DM NEED HEALER AND TANK!!
>LF3M DM NEED HEALER AND TANK!!
>LF3M DM NEED HEALER AND TANK!!
>LF3M DM NEED HEALER AND TANK!!
>LF3M DM NEED HEALER AND TANK!!
>Community
Choose one retard
>>337483853
16 year old turd stains yeah. Was part of the dankness.
>>337483901
The difference with Achievements is you can have them for literally everything with no need to go pick them up from an NPC to start them.People will be rewarded for doing literally anything from exploring, to hunting rare monsters, crafting or just killing the same monsters over and over. When everything is rewarded equally, based on difficulty, then people will be able to do -anything- they want again. Just like they could before quest lines were a staple of the genre.
We would see a resurgence of the sandbox platform and a movement away from cancerous themeparks.
>>337470224
dont make them rpgs
>>337483996
>proceed to talk to the people in DM
>make friends and connections
>get a guild invite or form one together
>suddenly you're in MC with the same people
w-whoa
>>337483960
The free trial was added much later.
>>337484140
But if I just want rewards, why not just have a list of achievements I got off the internet and treat it like a quest list? For stuff like finding new areas it's fine because people will want to do that themselves, but for stuff like "Kill 50 wolves" no one is going to do that unless if they know it gives them something or if the wolves themselves give something themselves that would make a player want to kill lots of them like a drop.
>>337483918
Exactly.
Classic WoW was still good in this regard.
My problem with MMOs is how much of a disconnect you feel between your inputs and the game world. I get that its for toaster internet, but I'd like to see an MMO try to have full action nearly all the time, but maybe with less players in action areas and more populated places like cities having more people in them.
>>337483837
The sub levels are awful, most of which are surely Chinese cafe logins and not actual subscriptions. NA is 9% of the internet population, which is only 500k subs.. maybe 1M then including SA, AUS, and NZ, but unlikely. There's no reason to suggest this isn't the distribution either.
The incentive is getting dank gear. The incentive is relevant professions, zones, and content.
>>337470224
>stop copying WoW
>stop focusing on singleplayer experience
>make challenging and rewarding group content that will incentivize people to form guilds
>go bankrupt because nobody has the time to play proper mmo anymore
Let's be honest, this genre needs a break. It needs to die out for at least a decade because it's stagnant beyond repair. Then it might have a shot at being reintroduced to the public. Like 2D platformers or point & click adventure.
>>337484418
That's not social, nor is it validated.
>>337484545
DFO.
>>337485131
Wait what? You completely lost me. I'm saying what's wrong with something because players will do something unwanted and you're critiquing not what I'm saying, but what the players are doing? Players will do what I'm saying because it will get them in game rewards the fastest, that's perfect validation.
>>337485234
>noncustomizable characters
man, i just can't. it's fine if its like a quick multiplayer match up thing like TF2 or something, but if the game is focused on being a part of the world, I want to feel like my own individual instead of some premade.
>>337485362
>their printed out list of stuff to complete in the game
>will get them in game rewards
>>337485102
The genre needs to evolve to be more casual and mainstream like Destiny. Only then will it become popular. For grindfest MMOs, we will always have Korea.
>>337473480
So literally Mortal Online with better graphics and more autistic community?
>>337484176
more like
>get invited to DM
>people say hi but nothing else unless they are talking to friend or it's something related to a dungeon
>get a guild invite if you're a sad fucker not in a guild already
>suddenly you're in MC with a pug of shitty people
>>337482950
>leveling never a major part of the game in WoW
Horse shit. It was a major part of vanilla WoW. You had to go explore the world to hit level cap. It was a long journey that gave you common ground with every other 60 on the server, and it was a blast because the world was a rich, interesting place. Every expansion since BC has taken focus off that, which is fine as far as getting people in to a weekly raiding with their buddies types of thing. The problem is they always did half measures up until WoD, so they simultaneously fucked their original rich leveling experience while not letting people get in to the meat of hanging out with their more experienced buddies as quickly as they should.
>>337485505
I'm just going to assume you're not the original guy I was talking with and you didn't read the conversation, so here's what was said.
>Original anon stats that quests should be hidden and don't need to be picked up, so they are like achivements.
>I say that players will just get a list off the internet so they can just do all available achievements faster
So yes, having a list of things to do will get them in game rewards faster since they won't need to figure out what to do themselves.
>>337485747
>You had to go explore the world to hit level cap
you didn't actually explore the world, you were following linear quest hubs that take you to level appropriate zones. no different from a modern MMO forcing you to do the story to access content.
>>337485879
Now I was young back then, so my memory isn't perfect, but I don't remember the game railroading you to the next area after you were done with a zone except for the first 15 levels or so. You had to find the next town with quest givers yourself afterwards most of the time.
>>337484418
You started MMOs with WoTL didn't you?
>>337477739
I still want the Devs to change WPs so as to make Wrath and Grace melee DPS a real thing.
Fuck this healing shit. I have a big hammer for a reason.
>>337485747
>the world was a rich, interesting place
Yet, it's still rocking 2004 graphics, and quests are plenty as dated.
/v/ is always the same. If anything is popular, even if they themselves enjoyed it, they'll shit on it. Simple matter of the fact is that wow is probably the best mmo ever made. Sure the last couple xpacs have diminished on the world, but the lore, character fantasy, and requirement for people to work together to get to endgame has never been beaten.
Don't worry though, they'd rather call someone a shill than face the fact that the reason wow killers and other MMOs never succeed is because almost everyone who plays it is still chasing that feeling of the first time they played wow.
>>337485879
>vanilla WoW
>linear
I can tell you didn't play vanilla. There were breadcrumb quests, sure, but nothing about that leveling experience was linear.
>>337486427
>check which zone is appropriate on the internet
Pretty obvious.
>>337477739
>https://www.returnofreckoning.com/
I always wanted to play WAR but the subs kept me away. Downloading it nao senpai
>>337486221
>>337486427
You guys didn't use addons like Quest Helper or guides, so that's why it doesn't seem so linear to you.
>>337486276
Holy shit, please read the conversation before posting. I am talking about what other players will do that will ruin the reason behind a design idea for an MMO.
>>337486525
Be warned, there is severe population and class imbalance. Destro is OP in just about every single way, and has almost twice the active playerbase of Order.
Which sucks as an Order player. Also a lot of Order classes have problems that the devs have yet to fix, and the game HEAVILY favors ranged.
>>337486512
And there was usually more than 1, so you had a choice where to go next.
>>337481360
It actually works really well if the game is designed for it. I've played Strategy Games in VR and it's like you're overlooking a boardgame. Also 3rd person games work quite well too and since you can look sideways etc. it gives you better controls over your camera than a traditiona 3rd person game.
>>337486807
It's still the same, but every character has to go through those same zones and quests.
Stop making wow clones first off
Is Legion finally going to remove the cancer that is killing WoW which is fucking zoning?
>we don't need another mmoRPG
>>337472338
same
no games get dwarfs right like warhammer does.
And why the fuck is this game the only one to do racial armour? Completely passes over the clownfuck bullshit every MMO is until they add transmog
>>337474442
desu PVE would be shit if its fully scripted - was never the strong point of the game.
bit of a shame as killing dragons as a slayer would be awesome
>>337470224
How about we bring back Phantasy Star Online Episode 1&2 style MMOs where the endgame wasn't reaching the level cap or raiding bosses, it was collecting tons of rare equipment and trading that equipment with other players which not only gave people a reason to communicate but encouraged people to group up so they can get more rare items.
>>337477625
The thing Runescape did or does well is that it took a long time to level up everything. Seeing max level players was a real surprise and turned in to an event.
>>337486903
But they didn't. You could run through either silverpine or the barrens, and they both spat you out at 20+, at which point you could do hillsbrad, or Ashenvale, or stone talon, or 1000 needles, or you could do barrens and then silver pine because would end up 25+ doing both because the experience for leveling and the range that quests still gave xp were large enough for that to make sense.
>>337477739
I enjoyed it a lot.
Remember going back to it with some guys from here at one point but it didn't last. I thought it died did someone else buy the rights to it or something?
My KotBS was fabulous.
>>337472338
but WAR was shit, i've played it for months since it released. most of the pvp zones were LITERALLY unplayable
>>337487627
illusion of choice, the game gave you different hubs to go to but really people went to one zone because it was the most optimal for quest rewards or experience.
>>337487627
>all 30+ zones were shit but stranglethorn vale
Kinda sad nobody will experience the ganking anymore.
>>337487821
Didn't that area have almost no quests?
>>337487627
It's like 2 zones max per level bracket.
Leveling is awful.
>>337487545
As long as Section IDs don't return, I'm all for it.
>>337483984
wow wasn't even around in 2001 you underage little shit
>>337488407
the fug, i don't recognize any of these areas
>>337488547
still doesn't change the fact that runescape was for poor kids
>>337488353
are you kidding, there was the nesingwary safari quest line
>>337487764
I don't think you understand the illusion of choice. We're not talking "dost though love me?" In a conversation you must say "yes" to exit or be caught in a loop of infinite "no"s. The choice was there, and there were advantages and disadvantages to the decision you made. Maybe you went to desolate and had to walk everywhere. Maybe you went to STV and dealt with the murder squads. Whatever you ended up doing, the choice was real. Just because you can't grasp the concept of why someone would do something else doesn't mean it's not a legitimate choice.
>>337488627
From top to bottom:
>Spaceship (boss area)
>Forest 2 (Ultimate mode boss area)
>Jungle 1
>Mines
>Jungle 2
>Forest 2 (quest)
>Desert (from EP4)
>>337471505
7/10 bait
