What do you think?
>>337352053
Realistic AI would snipe you from half way across any map with pinpoint accuracy and basically not let you do anything ever
>>337352053
It is in fucking place since damn F.E.A.R. At least for shooters. I don't know any recent title that would be praised for AI.
>>337352173
The only game I've heard praised for A.I in forever is "Alien: Isolation."
One title, in forever.
Just one title.
it has.
and it is mostly because even though computers have gotten much much more powerful over the last 12 or so years ALL of that extra power has been pumped into graphics
I read on gamasutra I think that the game industry doesn't really try to communicate with AI experts.
I guess they feel the current level (that's been almost the same for a decade) is enough for players these days and is not worth any investment.
>>337352374
Yes developers, continue to ignore the thing that actually makes gameplay compelling: the enemy's A.I.
>>337352263
That and F.E.A.R which have really impressive AI of enemies. Those fuckers really try to flank you and try to trap you into corner.
You know how some people complain about pros in online parts of a game face fucking them constantly ? Yeah, I don't think developers want that as the single player part of a game, scare customers off. Then they'd complain about having to use a lower a difficulty.
Just my 1+1 cent.
>>337353037
Just give the players AI teammates who have "Alien:Isolation"-tier AI.
>we will never get STALKER with the prerelease AI that would literally finish the game
>>337353365
Well metro certainly didn't have Alien Isolation tier, I did find it funny that at some parts it felt like YOU were the escort NPC. It was nice seeing an AI fire and actually kill instead of doing it for show.
>>337352053
No, the devs are too lazy to make good AI.
I honestly don't see why further AI improvements are necessary, what the fuck could that possibly add
>>337352053
You can't market AI, game companies blow their cash on artist and 3d modellers to make their game stand out.
Why waste time on something that won't generate any money.
Shame
The last game I played with good AI was Halo Reach.
AI is only as good as you know how to use it.
Doom is a good example, its AI is simplistic as fuck but they still proved a challenge given ho they're used in the map design
>>337353797
Uh, actual challenge.
I want enemies who fight so well I mistake them for human players.
>>337353808
That's the devlelopers' fault.
You can make money off A.I, as it dramatically improves the gameplay.
You blow all your money on graphics, you make a shallow game with no staying power.
>>337354179
The only place AI matters are symmetrical games, where you and your enemy play by exactly the same rules, ie. any multiplayer game, in which case why not just play against a human opponent.
In a typical single player game enemies act on vastly different rules to the player. They're not designed to be smart they're designed to be convincing npc characters who are easy to kill
>>337354368
Name a game where better AI would dramatically imrpove gameplay
>>337354368
They specifically don't want staying power, unless it's subscription based.
They want people to be dazzled just long enough until they buy the next one.
>>337354646
CIV 5.
>>337352783
>I read on gamasutra I think that the game industry doesn't really try to communicate with AI experts.
AI isn't really a big field and there isn't much AI researchers know that game developers don't that you can apply to video games
It depends on what you're talking about. What is "good AI"? It's really easy to write enemies that just calculate the most efficient actions and pull those off, leading to unfun games. Good game AI would be AI of enemies that do things that result in interesting scenarios for the player to play against, which is more of a game design question than an AI related one.
>>337354824
I completely agree with you, but single-player strategy games like that that make good use of AI are a minority, most games are action games or multiplayer games
>>337354179
>enemies jumping and shooting
>enemies camping spots you can't normally get to
>>337352053
No. Ai tech has greatly improved, but games don't need complex intelligence, they need scipts and variables that can easily be changed and debugged.
>>337352152
Realistic does not mean they don't abide by the rules of the game.
Killzone Mercs has the best AI in a console shooter and should have been the console shooter of its year, however that went for Bio Infinity, and its 90s brain dead enemy AI
>>337355196
>Ai tech has greatly improved
It really hasn't, just because a google bot beat someone at go, it's still using the same AI techniques that have been known about for decades
>>337352053
No it hasn't, there is no "linear progression" of AI in video games. AI is custom made to present challenge to the player that is customized to the game. It is not something that can truly stagnate, no more than art can stagnate, though less care and attention can of course be payed to making a great artstyle in favor of making one that's just passable.
Furthermore specific subsets of what could be considered AI have even improved significantly, such as pathfinding due to more standardization of algorithms and coding practices. Many current engines also streamline making more detailed AI tasks and flags available, as compared to the old days when much more had to be made and accounted for by hand.
>>337354646
The entire "Civilization" franchise.
I can't coordinate at all with nations I team up with, especially in wartime.
Barbarians should be cunning ambushers, a true thorn in my side (as opposed to morons who attack when I have overwhelmingly superiority on defense).
>>337352152
Realistic ai is exactly the opposite. It's extremely easy to write an AI with great accuracy, it's hard to make an AI that has a realistic aim, realistic pathing, realistic indecision.
>>337355347
Yeah this, basically.
>>337355032
In my eyes, good AI are opponents who fight like humans. Our strengths, and our tendency to make mistakes.
I'm not interested in perfect adversaries, I want AIs that simulate the experience of fighting a human opponent.
>>337355319
>Psht, computers aren't really better now compared to the IBM 608, it's all still based on the same techniques that have been known for decades.
>>337355586
why dont you just fight a human opponent
>>337355347
Dumb weeb, but good answer.
>>337352053
No, people just don't want intelligent AIs in their videogames
>>337352263
What about Starcraft 2? I don't ever play against AI opponents but last I saw there were tons of customization options for how the AI players play.
>>337355319
>AI wins a game that was literally thought impossible for computers to beat humans at
>i-it's not a big deal
stalker did a good job of it despite a few issues
>>337355481
>It's the AI accuracy anecdote
AI don't have to learn and that's physics you're talking about in regards to sway etc. which is outside the realm of AI, simulating tiredness and weapon recoil etc.
AI aiming is perfetly fine with about 6kb of memory assigned to it
What's not okay is that sole 6kb being assigned to AI in games.
All games need for good AI is to establish a playbook for AI - that's fucking it. They're not academic, they're not learning the meaning of life, they just need to actually know the fucking rules and play them.
Here's an example: If an AI has what could be considered surplus armaments, e.g. they got your standard gun and side-arm, but oh shit sweet they're full on grenades AND a rocket launcher, and it doesn't seem like there's any immediate threat that needs it, AI can overrule the "never shoot explosives at infantry" rule because of hype.
This translates to AI getting an edge and going fucking mental with it, firing off a rocket into a room to try and blindly catch players out. That comes across as a fun AI.
What doesn't come across as a fun AI is one with a cone stuck around its neck while it follows an invisible line straight through the map on a train track snapping to full auto fire whatever gun it has at the time.
>we will never get a game with FEAR's AI again
>>337355662
Because I want to fight dozens of smart enemies at a time in missions.
I want to be able to say I'm a good video game player, and feel I've legitimately earned that claim.
>>337356205
still not seeing why you don't play a multiplayer game here
>Payday 1 & 2
>Just throw more at them fuck iunno
Could also just have specials use regular SWAT as meatshields while they try to get into position to rush you all at once, but nah fuck that bro. Consoles got no power for that.
>>337355775
The people who thought that where being remarkably short sighted then, Go is still pieces on a grid which is easy to compute, just not as easy as Chess is where you can predict entire end games, it's still built on the same neural network technology that's been around for decades, just applied in a smarter fashion
>>337356349
Most people in multiplayer games are utterly retarded, AI being somehow even more stupid is pathetic.
With decent AI you could just do drop-in co-op vs. AI and not give a shit about the enemy team ragequitting or hacking.
>>337355481
Honestly just study how human players aim in multiplayer matches.
That's the best way to replicate realistic accuracy. Assign skill levels by percentage of occurrence, then distribute those skill levels randomly.
10 percent of the AI guys will be excellent shots, but which specific AI guys are the good marksmen will vary each time the mission is loaded.
Nobody else thought of this? I have a math disability and I thought of this.
>>337356349
Because teams working as a team are quite rare.
>>337356721
You hit the nail on the head.
AI players have the inherent coordination to make it seem like you're fighting a team of human beings.
Fighting a group of actual human players is akin to fighting a disorganized mob.
>>337356598
Well that anon is partially wrong, it's pretty easy to simulate human inaccurate aiming, games do it quite frequently, human-like decision making is the difficult part
I have't played FEAR yet, what was so special about its AI?
>>337353037
this is true, imagine having to actually go crouch or prone instead of sprinting and hip firing, half the audience would quit
http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart
>>337352053
Absolutely.
>>337355913
>AI aiming is perfetly fine with about 6kb of memory assigned to it
I like hos you said that dumb shit with a straight face, like, you totally believe it makes sense.
>>337357035
Typically humans in matches tend to make decisions based on either various objective goals or different emotions.
You get the irrational, impulsive decisions when feelings seriously override the objectivity. You get the wrong decisions when a bad call is made trying to fulfill an objective goal.
Often you'll see both. A mistake followed by an emotion-driven reaction.
>>337355913
Skyrim followers did this.
Give them a magic stick and they spam fireballs like crazy
>>337355481
>AI that has a realistic aim, realistic pathing, realistic indecision.
A realistic military trained person will kill you in a second. But you don't want it. You want 2/3 of the bullet to graze your feet to feel like you are a super hero.
>>337357257
It's not my fault most players want things easy.
I don't understand any player who doesn't want to be continuously challenged.
>>337352053
all game makers use rules based programming for ia since forever because it has the best fun/perfomance impact ratio
if you find something better feel free to contribute
realistic ai does not mean fun game
realistic ai takes a lot of power for nothing
realistic ia takes a lot of time to do for something only autistic faggots on 4 chan will notice
You want to play a killzone level with 15 realistic ia? play the multiplayer 15 people agaist you alone
come back here and tell me how fun it was
>>337357696
I said I wanted to fight a human player, not a human soldier; lol.
>>337355727
RTS games AI is terrible in general. they tend to cheat with resources and micromanage several units at the same time when that is impossible for humans
>>337357630
the hard part about making ai make decisions that seem human is usually the context. the best example is when they talked about the oblivion AI, where somebody would kill their spouse to steal an apple because they were starving to death. Considering every single factor and weighing them appropriately is extremely hard
>>337352374
>>337352865
AI doesnt need computation power, it just needs a lot of effort and detail.
Doing actual high level AI stuff like google or deepblue is beyond developers competence.
>>337357885
If you only fight weak AIs, you can't call yourself a good player.
>>337354557
>They're not designed to be smart they're designed to be convincing npc characters who are easy to kill
You forgot to explain why this is how it should be without exception. I for one like challenge in my video games, that's the point of games when you cut the frills, really.
People want better AI because they want the game to be more challenging without just inflating enemy stats.
>>337358184
This, incidentally, is why people are playing multiplayer more.
It gives them the challenge AI fights are currently lacking.
>>337352053
Nah!
>>337352783
>>337354904
I work as a developer in the field of AI.
The vast vast vast majority of the field really has nothing at all to do with what the layman would consider AI. It's a whole bunch of individual niche disciplines, languages, and products that have been lumped together by idiot businessmen and marketers who wouldn't know the difference between Johnny 5 and a toaster.
Further, >>337355347 is absolutely correct. "Progression" or "Stagnation" in game AI (which would more accurately be called enemy behavior) isn't really possible because each game calls for different behavior routines.
>>337352173
>>337353007
FEAR doesn't have that impressive AI, it's actually pretty mediocre. What's so good about fear is the level design and placement of the enemies. http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/gdc2006_orkin_jeff_fear.pdf
>>337357885
Yeah, because apparently shooting cardboard targets is really the more entertaining option when compared to ones that try to shoot back and be competent.
>>337358450
You guys have schools right? Organize your field. Put method to the madness.
>>337357189
It's a mix of the soldiers being smart and using stuff like grenades and corner tactics and the maps being good for them to use. You cannot stay in a single place in FEAR unless ou want to die because the fucks will go to attack you from the back.
>>337354646
Hearts of Iron II and III allows the AI to take control over certain aspects. Really, Grand Strategy is *the* genre that benefits from good AI.
>>337358292
Inflating enemy stats is a sorry way to boost a challenge. I hate losing to a stupid enemy who I only lost to because its health doubled.
>play against maxed ai bots in killzone 2 before i do multiplayer
>dominate since players are not as good as computers
>>337357885
>come back here and tell me how fun it was
Quite? Forces you to think rapidly and develop skills. Far more rewarding than a duck shoot.
>>337358776
Correct.
Through challenge, you are forced to improve as a player.
>>337358450
any tips for a finance major with stats/data analysis background to get into the field? Is it nice? Is it worth it?
AI shouldn't necessarily be realistic but it should be interesting
And it should absolutely never feel dumb or easy to outsmart
>>337358574
It's less that the field is disorganized and more that a million totally different disciplines are considered AI
In much the same way that enemy behavior in games is (erroneously) considered AI
Both developing neural networks and building semantic analysis engines/scripts is considered AI work despite the two being about as far apart as is possible.
>>337352053
There will never be good AI in games, you think its a good decision to have AI being more intelligent than the retards playing?
>>337358574
>AI schools
I bet you're one of the retards who thinks AIs are going to gain sentience and take over the world aswell
Why would developers make enemies more difficult when they're trying to make all games easier and more approachable? QTEs, aimbot abilities, magic wallhack vision, "Fear takedowns"...
Don't blame devs, it's the casual audience that's cancerous.
>>337358213
If you want challenge play a multiplayer game. It's really that simple.
>>337359058
>In much the same way that enemy behavior in games is (erroneously) considered AI
It is AI, even if it's a primitive AI
>>337359179
Screw 'em.
Casuals have plenty of games.
I want games for the people who want to be challenged as players, especially experienced players who mop the floor with weak AIs.
>>337352053
Is that a case study in some sort of education course? Where can I find it?
Why isn't this level of quality and in depth analysis in high schools, rather than make hello world, display a string, make an array, make a loop...
>>337358450
>I work as a developer in the field of AI.
Huh neat, into that newfangled recursive "neural" net stuff, or more traditional type approach? Either way I imagine it must be fun, or at least busy, times with all the ways AI is becoming more and more pervasive.
>>337353797
sophisticated enough AI could make a game infinitely replayable, even long after the servers are down and the multiplayer is dead.
>>337357696
No they wouldn't. Most shootouts are just trading inaccurate potshots from behind cover that usually miss.
>>337358893
I wish I had some tips for you but I really don't. I got into the field because I knew someone who knew someone who had developed a powerful semantic analysis engine and I was smart enough to learn the proprietary language(s) and computational linguistics involved. I didn't even finish college.
It's very nice for me because I happen to be one of maybe three people in the world currently capable of building anything with the engine.
If you can get an internship with one of the fortune 500 tech companies that'd definitely be a start, I suppose. Seems to me with your degree and background you'd be a good fit for marketing and strategy; there's a dire need for sales and marketing personnel that can actually understand what is and isn't possible and what is and isn't difficult. It's a complicated field.
>>337359579
>Huh neat, into that newfangled recursive "neural" net stuff, or more traditional type approach?
you're a fucking retard
>>337352053
Is that Lisp?
Terrible combination of colours/background, almost unreadable.
>>337359742
Wow, rude.
>>337359175
Isn't sapience, or at least the flawless simulation of such, the ultimate goal of AI development?
>>337359419
Most enemy behaviours can't really be considered AI. The way the make decisions is incredibly simple and 90% of what you percieve as "AI" are pre-programmed actions or animations
>>337359334
No. That is the wrong path, guaranteed to make single-player campaigns worse and worse.
I'm not interesting in fighting disorganized, overly emotional mobs in arena matches with the simplest of objectives at best.
AI can pull off the coordination the majority of human players are incapable (in large numbers) of doing in online matches.
>>337359848
No it's building your own robot waifu
>>337357696
No, just no.
>>337359848
Public perception of AI is so fucking stupid
the practical applications of AI are things like suggesting your search results or buying and selling stocks
>>337359579
No, I don't work with neural nets or use a statistical approach, although we've proposed on several occasions that those who do use those would benefit greatly by adding our engine's analysis and disambiguation as another vote in their system.
>>337360018
But that's not AI, that's marketing and price prediction algorithms
>>337359848
There are so many potential applications, there isn't one "ultimate goal".
Really, sapience would be relatively useless.
When people tell you making AI better would only make games worse, you know something has gone terribly wrong with the world.
>>337359916
The ultimate challenge in games has always been playing against other people, if you're too socially retarded to do it it's nobodys fault but yours
>>337359848
Not really, the ultimate goal is a machine which can interpret data in the same sort of complex ways our brains process data or even better, it being self aware in any capacity is only really a fringe thing from sci-fi, and really isn't useful.
>>337354646
Literally any fps.
Literally any survival game.
Almost every rpg. Fallout or skyrim anyone?
Was this supposed to be a difficult question?
>>337360239
What if someone told you that "making AI better" is a phrase that holds no inherent meaning and is tied up in a million different operational definitions and design decisions
>>337360110
Yes that's what AI is dumbass
Not some mad scientist attempt to recreate conciousness or imitate humans
>>337355913
>AI aiming is perfetly fine with about 6kb of memory assigned to it
The fuck is this mean, THE FUCK IS THIS MEAN!!!
>>337360336
Then your just getting into semantics and being autistic. Does "make enemy react more realistically/smarter/strategically" tickle your dick more?
>>337360321
>FPS
enemies are supposed to be stupid targets. AI used to be smarter but people didn't actually like it and thought it was unfair so they started becoming dumber
>Survival game
survival games are basically resource management games what does AI have to do with it
>RPG
see FPS
>>337357276
GTA4 had this, tho.
>>337360336
I would tell there were quantifiable ways of evaluating improvements of AI, adjustable to each individual situation; and their answer was them engaging in obfuscation.
>>337360026
Oh I see sounds interesting, thanks for the info and setting me straight. Apologies for making the same assumptions you must hear so often, as a layman I only really loosely follow some AI stuff mostly in computer vision and motion planning.
>>337360531
AI isn't about being realistic, it's about having a program that makes decisions to achieve a goal. You could have good AI for a game that actually completely unrealstically, that finds a bug in your game and expoilts it to kill the player over and over again. That's the problem with your idea of what AI is. AI isn't "making things appear to act human"
>>337352783
AI as an academic discipline has little to no application in vidya. Games have a very strict budget regarding processing power, and AI can only have a relatively tiny part of it. Thus, AI techniques in games must be cheap as hell. Most of the time it's just "fake" AI. That also holds for most game AI that people perceive as good. That's just cheap, fake shit, cleverly implemented by developers to create an illusion of dynamic intelligence.
TL;DR we need a fuckton more processing power for actual dynamic and good AI.
>>337352053
It never "boomed" in terms of popularity to stagnate in the first place.
Good AI is less marketable, than pretty graphics
What most AIs in game lack is self-preservation. They stay right next to a ticking bomb, they charge you with a rusty pipe even though you're wearing power armor and just effortlessly cut down 5 of his friends. They don't even try to flank and poke their head up one by one for player to snipe.
>>337360782
FEAR had both tho.
>>337360461
He's saying that the performance cost of running the AI subroutine of "how to aim gud" only takes up a very minuscule amount of system resources. And I guess he's saying that good AI needs to take up more than that, I am not so sure what his real point is.
>>337360461
>>337360823
>They stay right next to a ticking bomb
Thanks for reminding me of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ4NzNV7eo8
>>337358075
>AI doesn't need computation power
What the fuck am I reading? It's heavily tied to CPU, especially branching decision trees with look-ahead.
Unless you want a Civilization AI that decides at the beginning of the game that
>it will invade you navally
>even though it started in the middle of the desert
>roll 1d6
>I'll use 3 boats
>when the player kills all my boats, I'll make 3 more boats
and it never deviates from that pattern, no matter what the player does?
Or worse, a chess game where the AI only looks at the board state once per turn, instead of investigating 100-200 trees and selecting the best state possible to not just win the turn (i.e. leaving itself in a more advantageous position) but to win the entire game (checkmating).
Come on anon.
>>337352053
AI has stagnated because it's not economic to develop one for a single player game. Games that have deep tactical or strategic gameplay invariably use human matchmaking because the benefits outweigh the costs. Networking code is a bitch but it's a known problem (so there are resources on TCP and UDP) and a lot of it can be re-used, friends get to play with other friends, you can utilize competitiveness to keep players glued to their screens (and their Elo rating, medals, or ladders). Those costs and benefits outweigh a single player AI that, at best, can only mimic what a human being can do.
So game developers have gone with the second best option: an AI that exists only in the context of the needs of the game. It's job is not to compete like a human, but to provide a challenge to the player. Flanking, moving, sometimes cheating, that's about it. It's cheap, and most importantly, it's sufficient.
But economics may not line up with overall cultural goals of gaming. Superbunnyhop did a video saying that games with bots essentially archive the gameplay, which is important if anyone ever wants to understand how Unreal Tournament worked
https://youtu.be/uoYjayrKRDs
>>337360823
That's completely intentional to make them easy to kill
>>337360823
Games are not trying to simulate reality, they are trying to simulate hollywood movie.
>>337360531
>make enemy react more realistically/smarter/strategically
Most would not consider that making AI "better," as simulating a human player or reacting with perfect strategy is almost never the goal of video game AI.
>>337360653
>there are quantifiable ways of evaluating improvements of AI, adjustable to each individual situation
Yes, and that is why saying "Make the AI better!" is meaningless. It is utterly without the context that would make it meaningful.
It's like saying "Make the game better!"
>>337360461
Ex-student that worked on a PS4; Out of all the memory assignments, the average PS4 game (the usual example is Killzone for specifics) the biggest priority is graphics and rendering at almost half the memory, another third or so after that is physics.
Out of all the different things that get memory assigned to it, AI gets a measly 6kb or so, because it's basically a LUA file that's run every half a second or so to make decisions, with the game logic running in synchronisation with the animation (why AI tend to be predictable is because of the animation states they're in combined with gameplay logic doing things like letting them shoot in/through/at walls and such like a dumbass and with how infrequent the AI runs compared to the rest of the game).
Don't forget a console isn't immune to the same overhead an operating system has, they're just super focused on gaming, so you won't even get all 8GB DDR5 RAM.
But the sensible thing obviously would be to just stop running so many stupid shaders like DoF/Blur (that literally nobody likes or wants fuck off) except as an optional extra for something like PC and assign more memory to secondary features, even just several MB.
>>337360537
Fps- that falls into the specifics of taste. I personally think dumb shooters have thier value, but I would take a tac shooter over cawaadoots any day, so maybe.
Rpg- I find an unrealistic AI to be one of the greatest shortcomings in modern RPGs. Take a a game like skyrim, every npc interaction even in combat is jarring and almost comedic how poorly done it is. It's all about the little things when it comes to being able to put yourself in a game, and the moment you see an npc walking into a wall with a shitty animation, you are immediately reminded that you are in a videogame. Ruins the experience.
Survival- same as rpg. Muh suspension of disbelief.
>>337358075
Depends on what the AI needs to do. Even simple things like pathfinding are non-trivial at scale. And AI is entirely CPU-bound, so it has to share time with a lot of other time-critical processes.
But I do agree that effort and detail are required for good game AI. That, and testing. Lots and lots of testing to catch all the corner cases.
>>337361029
Well he's partially right, some types of enemy behavior often attributed to AI are fairly simple and tied to if then flags and don't really take up much computing power. The actual AI calculations do eat up computing power if they are real AI decision trees and planning and not just window dressing, Dorf fort for instance, while it does suffer from not being multithreaded, is a good example of AI planning that can eat up a lot of resources.
>>337361390
Bethesda are horrible coders so Skyrim is a poor example, but if you mean big, open-world games where you can do alot of things, AI will make the characters act more believable but it'll be purely flavour/polish and not worth investing that much effort into as it doesnt tie into the main game systems and only 'immersion'
A lot of FPS games during development have smarter AI that flanks you and works in teams and they actually take it out because players find it frustrating and confusing
>>337361291
so they allocated 6kb of memory for AI, with is about 8000 6bit integres.or 3000 standard 16bit integres.
I call bullshit onto your story, 1 enemy AI would need more than 6kb to even be able to move around the map without shooting anyone.
>>337352053
Killing 2 AI was actually pretty great and one of the best things about the game. Its highly underrated in that regard. In fact I'd go so far to say that kz2 had the best AI I ever experienced in a video game, and this is coming from a 30 year old that's been gaming since 1990.
Too bad about the laggy af controls though. Cant believe no developer realised how bad they were while they were making it.
>spend time improving AI and mechanics of your game
>bunch of "gamers" say your game is ugly
>not allowed to ship a demo of your game because publishers hate that demos cost sales
>no-one buys your fucking game
>find job in new gaming studio instead working on AAA game
>rinse
>repeat
>>337361674
Meh, it might be cherry picking l, but all I had to do was name one game where improved AI would improve gameplay. Improved AI does improve gameplay. Or at the very least helps it all come together.
>>337361708
People making a game can allocate as much memory as they please for AI. Obviously it's going to be dramatically different for every game, maybe one game he heard about used 6kb but attaching that figure to every game is just retarded
>>337354108
Lol please. Doom is only challenging on nightmare difficulty, and then it's just cheap.
>>337352053
Video games are experiencing severe devolution. Let me boil it down to a question. Which is more exciting to you: Dwarf Fortress, a hideous ASCII-art game which randomly generates and simulates an entire planet, including thousands of years of civilization, historical figures, battles, monuments, cultures, seasonal patterns, creatures, water physics, hunger, thirst, drunkenness, sleep, character moods, relationships, subterranean layers of all manner, crafts, trading, military organization, decoration, landscaping, and individual physiology right down to specific bones and organs that get damaged in combat–or the graphically "superior" version of neu Doom playable on the Occulus Rift?
I’d say both games are terrible in their own way, but Dwarf Fortress is much more exciting to me as an example of what’s possible. If you put its visual fidelity on a scale of 1 to 10, it would be a one, but in terms of depth and interactive richness, it’s a 10. The programmer is free to design things as complex as he wants, because he doesn’t need to show you what’s happening in detail. Makes sense, doesn’t it? And, in this sense, our traditional definition of “progress” has become counter-productive. Because when we finally do have VR goggles that we can afford, we’re going to want even prettier places to walk around in. We’ll need new 4K or even 8K resolution displays shrunk down to the size of a playing card in front of our eyes, along with higher frame rates, immediate response times, and an order of magnitude improvement in the visual department–especially animation.
>>337361898
Oh you think, its retarded?
Have you even made a simple AI that does simple things like play poker, data base in that shit alone is higher than 6kb and it needs to check it all the fucking time.
>>337362037
>we finally do have VR goggles that we can afford, we’re going to want even prettier places to walk around in
you cant walk around in VR you can only stand in a small room and teleport
>>337361519
>Depends on what the AI needs to do. Even simple things like pathfinding are non-trivial at scale
While that's true aren't there more than a few ways to do shortcuts that make this take up much less resources, sort of like graphics?
>AI is entirely CPU-bound
I've always wondered what stops them from running calculations on the GPU, I recall reading it was entirely possible to do CPU type calculations on them, though I'm not a computer guy.
>>337358451
Did a ctrl-f on "FEAR" just to refute retards with the link you posted, good job. FEAR is a masterclass in deception.
>>337362084
I think it's retarded to say every PS4 game uses the same amount of memory for AI, 6kb is very small
>>337362160
You can if you surround yourself with even more gimmicks.
>>337362206
>While that's true aren't there more than a few ways to do shortcuts that make this take up much less resources, sort of like graphics?
And heres the shocker, games have been doing that for decades, if you know small company Autodesk it has made various tools to make AI mapping easier and smoother.
>I've always wondered what stops them from running calculations on the GPU, I recall reading it was entirely possible to do CPU type calculations on them, though I'm not a computer guy.
Nobody likes OpenCL and CUDA is nVidia only
>>337360537
So you're exactly pointing to the fact that better AI, while unquestionably improving gameplay, wouldn't be something that they can market.
>>337354646
Any single player game you fucking social media retard
>>337362206
Real AI involving big lookup tables to find paths or make decisions uses alot of computing power and memory, but that's not what's keeping games from having better AI, what's keeping games from having better AI is it takes alot of work for not much visible result. Games can certainly do alot more AI calculations than they currently do, especially if they're less graphically intensive. You can do some AI calculations on the GPU it's just a pain in the ass because GPUs are for parallel one-way computing and AI tends to pull things in from all over the place
>>337362037
Isn't that a central issue within all art forms though? A children's book only a few pages long (ex: the giving tree) could express something more masterful than a multiple books (twilight) by a different author. I don't think it's a decline in overall quality rather than the nature of the work itself.
>>337361864
>best AI I ever experienced
Have you played FEAR? If not check that out, if so I'll have to check out KZ2 then.
>>337362257
I think it's retarded to say that any modern 3D game with enemies in it that have to move can only take 6kb of memory.
>>337362502
It's not unquestionable at all. People actually prefer shooters with dumber enemies. Improved AI technically made the game worse. This isn't conjecture it's happened during the development of several FPS games
>>337362572
Books haven't changed in TECHNOLOGY aspect since Gutenberg.
>>337361864
>tfw you loved the weighty controls
combined with the amazing sound design the weapons just felt so heavy and awesome.
Best A.I. Ever. Literally read you like a book.
>>337362037
Not really a devolution, its the natural evolution of a medium where development costs have consistently risen but the retail price is relatively inelastic
Only a moron would try to break into video games for a business. You need a development team of programmers, artists, creative department, and quality assurance. Then after hiring this team of people, and you need a big team if you want to do anything beyond pixel indie stuff, you have to sell your product for a pretty set in stone 60 bucks or less. So the only way to makeup the costs of production is to sell a shitload of units, and how do you do that? simple, by siphoning development expenses to marketing expenses. The only people that can make money in video games are the giant publishers who have teams of underpaid people pushing out products they don't care about to mass market to kids and their parents.
You gonna tell me you're gonna spend your own money, which you're gonna have to do - good luck convincing investors, on hiring a team and make an amazing game only for it to have a hardcore but niche audience while everybody else just buys what they see on commercials every year? You'd have to be a fucking idiot to not invest your money elsewhere
>>337362632
from what I remember KZ AI was pretty decent, they reacted to what you did, changed possitions, flanked.
I guess it depends on what the goal is.
Take a fighting game for example; i imagine it's not terribly difficult to create AI that can react faster than a human ever could have a counter to any button you press, usually only defeatable by exploiting its programming. But once you realise you are fighting against AI it becomes a whole lot less fun, since the whole enjoyment comes from the battle of 2 minds and the dexterity to perform what their mind actually wants to do. Conditioning the opponent into thinking you will act one way while you choose another and captalising on their mistakes. AI doesn't need to ever drop a combo and it cannot be conditioned. It has to be "dumbed down" to our level to achieve that, but the dumbing down process is usually the harder part.
I dont play much chess but i've always wondered what grandmasters feel like when playing against AI, knowing that if given enough time the AI would never lose.
I think that AI needs to generally focus on doing more emergent behavior, simple rules that create good illusions of depth and though.
For instance, FEAR's AI was mostly a combination of the devs paying attention to the little things (creating a whole lot of dialog that responded to simple checks in game), and them designing levels around very simple behaviors that made them behave in a way that felt very good. For instance the flanking in the game, was not hard coded in. The AI didn't have something that told it to do a flanking maneuver, but instead the way the AI naturally advanced towards a target, combined with how the levels were laid out caused the behavior that felt very human. Too many games seem to do stuff that's one off and scripted, behaviors that are only used once, or in specific situations, instead of creating a underlying set of behaviors that create something that feels more organic.
At least that's what I have been thinking for a bit, maybe that's just stupid.
>>337362560
>>337362401
Ah, I see. Thanks for educating me.
>>337362710
What people prefer doesn't mean that it makes them better. People prefer Skyrim's classless system and Mass Effect/FO4 dialogue wheel, but those are clearly bad choices for RPGs.
The fact that the majority of the customer base just prefer to blindly hold down the fire button and run through hundreds of enemies unscathed says nothing about the quality of the gameplay and everything about the userbase.
Better AI ==> better gameplay. Unquestionably.
Every now and then a company will put a lot of effort into making enemy AI that uses strategy and behaves sensibly. Then all their playtesters complain about the enemy being psychic or teleporting behind them.
The reality is that if enemy AI wasn't shit, the player would never be able to win while outnumbered.
>>337362037
I'd say that Dwarf Fortress is more of a bad game than a good. Throwing graphics out the window, and it doesn't really matter if they go "well we wanted it like that", is still incredibly shit. Also sort of related the game is pretty much autism: the game.
>>337363189
you shouldn't be disparaging unique games
they are pushing the industry forward
>>337363016
so how would you feel about a single player FPS game that played like a 1 vs 10 multiplayer FPS game against skilled opponents? because it's completely possible to make and not very fun to play
>>337362037
Excuse me sir, but I couldn't help but notice in your post you used the term "devolution". I would like to point out that there is no such thing as devolution, evolution is not a process that has a directionality to it. Weather something is evolving to a more complex or simple state, it is still doing so to suit it's environment, and thus still evolving not devolving.
>>337363189
what makes it a bad game?
anyone can say X is bad and worst part there is no conversation in that statement.
>>337352053
I genuinely think that developers have scrapped or recycled AI from previous games just to fuel their current games. AI just stopped being complex after a certain age where enemy or pedestrians or allies became completely fucking stupid.
in ARMA2, the AI actually had a gun and they actually had to aim and at all times were on the same playing field as you and they operated as such
in other games though, the AI either has a fucking aimbot and it doesn't matter how good you hide or run (GTAV cops shooting AI is fucking awful) you'll still get hit. If you go through a road block in GTAV the cops are inexplicably able to nail you in the head multiple times over and over effortlessly.
>>337363337
Devolution is proper English word you sperg
>>337363337
It's a term alluding to evolving but regressing in some sense, poindexter
>>337352053
>>337363459
This. AAA studio devs have become lazy. Those large corporations are just in it for the money.
>>337363325
The fact that the AI is better doesn't mean that the NPCs are playing like top FPS pro gamers. It means that they are believable and perform human-like actions: things like having a sense of self-preservation, working as a team, trying to flank the players.
You're blindly assuming that good AI means 1-frame reaction time and pinpoint accuracy. That's exactly what's wrong with the whole industry. It's, in a way, exactly why people think that Dark Souls, with all of its bullshit moments, is a difficult game, when in fact it's just designed to be unfairly stacked as much as possible against the player.
>>337355727
starcraft in general is such a great example of bad AI, it literally cheats to get better resources. AoE, Civ or C&C never did any of this.
>>337363691
>become lazy
Naa, like always they are pulled by publishers.
Remember Driv3r and how fucking broken that game was? It wasn't that bad because devs were lazy but because game was rushed and published 2 year prior to original date.
>>337363325
Perfect aim botting IS the lazy option though. A lot of fucking awful games raise the difficulty by simply inflating enemy stats and giving perfect accuracy.
It's easy to make the AI a perfect killing machine, it's a lot harder to make them react realistically with complex tactics, imperfect aim, and actually need to run on limited data like the player.
>>337363707
>he fact that the AI is better doesn't mean that the NPCs are playing like top FPS pro gamers. It means that they are believable and perform human-like actions: things like having a sense of self-preservation, working as a team, trying to flank the players. You're blindly assuming that good AI means 1-frame reaction time and pinpoint accuracy.
This. This.
The part about DaS is mostly wrong, though.
>>337363813
Sins of a Solar Empire does the same thing, at any higher level than Hard Difficulty, you'll play against an AI that always seems to know when and where you are and aren't. He'll never make any mistakes when invading and when you're responding to it he'll leave just before you get there to protect your shit. If you quit the game and look at the finances you'll see these strange spikes in money and resources, since resources don't work like that I discovered that the game just throws money at the enemy AI to use. This is probably why they suddenly have the ability to field a titan very very early game when I'm just getting into my second capital ship.
>>337363707
"Better AI" is a meaningless phrase as any metric you might propose to quantify the quality of an AI is inherently arbitrary.
>>337363707
good AI isn't "acting like a human". Good AI is being intelligent within the rules of the game. If you gave weak FPS mooks good AI, they would all group up together and attack the player at exactly the same time using their strength in numbers to overcome you. The single player action game genre rides on having bad AI with enemies with no sense of self-preservation. If you think enemies should be more believable it's a fair point, it's just not what "better AI" is. AI is decision-making, not simulation. Give the enemies in a scripted single player game AI and they'll use the cheapst most unrealistic tactic in the game to kill you
>>337363189
Normally I'd argue with you, but that post slightly triggered me so I'm just going to say basically what you said about dwarf fort and apply it to you and call it a day.
>I'd say that This faggot is more of a bad faggot than a good. Throwing a good game out the window, and it doesn't really matter if he goes "well I wanted it with better graphics", is still incredibly shit. Also sort of related the post is pretty much horrible taste: the post.
>>337364347
>good AI isn't "acting like a human"
Yeah, not him, but no, good AI is a form of well developed and fitting behavior, not the best algorithm for a problem.
>>337352053
Putting money into AI is considered a massive pit for AAA developers when if they just put run of the mill I'm a software engineer who read an article once AI in their game they save a lot and people will still dump TONS of money into buying their game. So to them it's dropping tons of money for no actual gain.
This is also why Red Faction Guerilla-style destruction will not be a thing for many many more years even though now we're even more capable to run these things with more realism. RFG was a landmark in game development due to it's ability to look pretty, handle AI that could navigate dynamically changing environments, and support destruction in real-time that was far more realistic than anything even remotely close to what's already existed.
>>337364767
no it's not. AI is not behaviour, it's intelligence. A fitting behaviour often involves no intelligence at all and an intelligent behaviour is often completely unfitting. This is why nobody knows what the fuck they're talking about when they say "AI". They think it's a human pantomime.
Copy pasting from another thread
A remember a dev interview where they implement A.I with some really good adaptive behavior into their FPS. The enemy units would flank, dodge grenades or toss them back, provide cover fire for other units.
They received a lot of complaints when they play tested the games. Play testers accused the game of cheating and being impossible to win. The play testers failed to take notice of the enemy tactics and keep track of their positions. After several failed test, they dumbed down and stripped features from their A.I just so people can actually finish it.
AI will never improve as long as vidya targets the mainstream audience. The general audience is too stupid.
>>337362726
Your wrong. I'm arguing that games are books.
>>337362632
Yup, played fear. Don't expect kz2 to be anything amazing btw. Overall its an OK game at best but it certainly has really fucking impressive AI.
>>337362763
I wanna revisit it. Haven't played it since like 2009. Fuck time flies. My ps3 is back at my parents house unfortunately.
AI programming is the simplest fucking part of video games.
>run around points A, B, C
>if enemy in crosshairs, shoot
It's building wide, vivid, believeable universes and populating them with character's that is the difficult part of gaming. Soundtrack too
>>337361953
This. It's amazing people here tout playing Doom as some sort of accomplishment, when they're no better than the "casuals" they bitch about.
>>337365156
It sounds like it was a problem.
Players can generally deal with smart AI, but good AI cuts both ways. Good AI means they can't notice everything, they can't know the best location to be at all times, they need to be a little bit flawed.
If the enemies are perfect at taking cover, perfect at avoiding grenades, and perfect at flanking, it's still bad AI in that it too smart.
May not be the case with your story, but it's worth pointing out that bad AI goes both directions.
>>337357885
>realistic ia takes a lot of time to do for something only autistic faggots on 4 chan will notice
>only
literally everyone were praising Killzone and FEAR for their AI when they came out
game journo cucks, regular players, everyone
Apparently Project Zomboid is going to have one of the most ambitious AI's in recent gaming history.
>>337366745
I've noticed this too. Neo v seems to think that playing doom is some huge deal and makes them 'hardcore'. Its fucking retarded. I guess they think they're special for playing it now since they were all raised on halo and cod on xbl when they were 12.
>>337366508
>AI programming is the simplest fucking part of video games.
>>run around points A, B, C
>>if enemy in crosshairs, shoot
please refrain from posting again.
>>337366508
>programming AI is easy
>making music is hard
spotted the /v/tard
>another '/v/ says AI needs to be good but not too good, and not too bad either' thread
>AI only exists in AAA manshoot games
>AI only exists to either make you feel good about your skillz or to prove the liberal jewish SJW illuminati control video games
this is why /v/ is a toilet board fyi
>>337360782
M.I.E.D.O.
>>337363325
>what is Quake 3 on NM
>>337367342
>unable to provide counter-argument
>>337367360
>name-calling
sometimes i forget i'm posting with literal children, yes
>>337366508
please never procreate
>>337367071
Not more ambitious than autism apocalypse project Cataclysm DDA, though.Which is shaping up pretty good right now with enemy and ally AI.
>>337367707
Making music for a video game is less than 5% of the production budget and takes one or two musicians working at a lesiurely pace
Makign the rest of the game takes a team of hundreds working 60 hour weeks for months, maybe even years
But yeah soundtrack, that's the hard part
>I know all about AI, which I can prove with these copy-pasted factoids about FEAR and Half-Life (the first one) and STALKER
>one time they made an AI that was so good you couldn't beat it, so they had to make the AI bad on purpose!!
>>337352053
Best bot experience ive ever had was in condition zero.
Theres no need for AI, game makers just need to make the enemies as strong as the player ie no flinching, realistic damage, that's it
>>337355913
>AI don't have to learn
Isn't the entire point of AI that it DOES learn and adapt? Your "good AI" example relies on the AI learning and figuring things out, doing experiments and applying the results to their future decisions.
A lot of people seem to confuse AI with straight up bots that just follow pre-determined instructions, even the "AI" in OP's image is just a bot that says "if i encounter this, do x, if i encounter this, do y". It's not smart, it's just following instructions. It's not an AI. There are probably some examples of games that actually do have some form of AI but I can't think of any off the top of my head.
>>337367980
your second line is actually true if you go and read some post-moterms or gamasutra or whatever the fuck you can see for yourself
>>337368195
Learning is not a requirement of AI
and following pre-determined instructions is the only thing computers can do, yes, they do not have sentinence
>>337367898
the AI is the skeleton you hang the meat of the game on, which is what makes it a game. the meat is the hardest part, ie the sounds and the visuals
like on a basic level, CoD is literally Quake but with brown people instead of zombie monsters
For once in my life I'd lie to see enemy AI work like an actual tight knitt squad. Like they shout out each other's names and say things like "Danny toss me a mag" and then you just see this rifle mag get lofted across the room.
And then when you headshot Danny his mate Terry is all like "Danny! You son of a bitch, I'll fucking kill you!" and Terry charges you hard whilst the squad commander is shouting at him to get back into formation.
It'll never happen. Terribly inefficient to create all the resources necessary for something so nuance.
>>337368380
yeah thats true if you replace AI with "engine", still doesn't make the claim that a game's music is a difficult challenge to make any less ludicrous
>>337368396
yes, in-engine interactive cutscenes are what gaming needs more of
>>337368349
>Learning is not a requirement of AI
Again, you're confusing "AI" with bots. Learning is definitely a requirement of real AI. Sure, computers aren't (yet) sentient, but they are capable of learning. See:
>Artificial neural networks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network
>Heuristics (e.g. Eurisko) http://aliciapatterson.org/stories/eurisko-computer-mind-its-own
etc.
>>337368570
That's what the average pleb thinks AI is
>>337368592
>implying anyone here knows anything at all about AI besides the usual HL and FEAR memes and 'computer too smart/computer too dumb'
>>337368592
Bots are AIs. AIs don't have to learn, they only have to make decisions. AI is a practical technology with real implementations, not science-fiction. Stop reading pop science articles and acting like you know what the fuck you're talking about
>>337352263
I remember praising the ai in early cod because they'd sometimes try to flank and throw your grenades back at you
Hmm, says the /v/ poster who possesses absolutely no taste whatsoever. What if computers were able to recreate the effect of playing against other people, so I wouldn't ever have to step outside my comfort zone and play actual multiplayer modes, which /v/ says is bad? ...of course it'd need to be good enough to be a challenge, but I wouldn't want to feel bad about my skills or uncomfortable in any way whatsoever. That's why I don't want to interact with other people using the multiplayer mode, who /v/ says are all normies and are bad at the game but also they care too much about being good at the game, which is also bad.
>>337368021
that severly hamper designs. you cant have 2-3 ai bumrushing player in an open area with that.
doom has the most simplistic ai possible and the demons are no way comparable to the player and it is still the best fps of all time with variety that make today's fps all seem like grindy mmo diablo shit.
>>337368809
Ok, so I guess this counts as AI:
>if player is in front of me, shoot
>else don't shoot
Wow, how intelligent!
>>337369041
What the fuck was this post about? I swear any technical subject on /v/ pull all the retards out from the woodwork.
>>337369340
>I swear any technical subject on /v/ pull all the retards out from the woodwork
well, here you are. hi
>>337369251
plenty of AIs are quite complex without having the ability to learn
/g/ linked me here.
I'm currently working on my PhD in Computer Science. My major field of study is artificial intelligence and machine learning.
Hi.
>>337357696
>A realistic military trained person will kill you in a second
99% of military everywhere are terrible shots in combat situations
>>337352783
>I read on gamasutra
kill yourself
>>337368021
>CEE TEE SPON
>IT'S THE ENEMY
>AAAAAHHH
>SNI~
>AAAAAHHH
>>337362787
This is 100% bullshit because you assume the price of games to be highly inelastic. It is actually quite the opposite. For the past decade, most gamers are spending far more than $60 on a single game. Your average retail game is now $90-120 because of season passes and other dlc programs. They still pay $60 for the base game, but the price of a full game has dramatically increased with cost.
>>337369585
Ok, back me up here. A core requirement of AI is that it should be able to learn, right? If we consider humans, we're not born with explicit instructions of what to do, we have to learn and grow through experience, that's what makes us intelligent. People here say that bots (see OP pic) are "AI", but I disagree as stated in >>337368195
What do you think?
>>337358451
Thats not true.
You can aggro enemies in FEAR and lure them into places they have no business being in, they adapt and still play well.
>>337366508
>>It's building wide, vivid, believeable universes and populating them with character's that is the difficult part of gaming.
I remember that time the Tetris, Katamari Damacy, and Geometry Wars developers spent $200,000 salary on a writer to do all that stuff for them
man, it really paid off
>/v/ confuses 'complex' with 'realistic' and 'accurate' again
>can only think of AI in terms of FPS'
Oy vey.
>>337369585
I earnestly blame you for me having to tell Google what an apple is to make this post, and hope that the next time you masturbate it's unfulfilling and leaves you with a headache
>>337369585
I might sound a bit ridiculous but I don't think video game AI actually falls into your field of study
>>337369251
According to your definition, Deep Blue is not an AI.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer)
You might want to contact the National Museum of History and tell them to remove it from the Artificial Intelligence and Robotics gallery.
>>337370019
I work at a gas station for weed money, so let me be the first petroleum industry representative to tell you all about how global warming is a sham hoax perpetuated by the liberal media
>>337369115
i have just finished playing uncharted 4, I just wish theres a unique special forces type of enemy among the goons that's literally just a player bot.
you know, regenerating health, capable of one shotting drake using stealth, strafe fire, rolling around the map to prevent headshots, changing weapons, etc.
Its really sad big name game devs are restricted to program their AIs as simple as they can, this make their games no better than corridor shooters. Its disgusting.
>>337369797
Artifical intelligence isn't Artificial Consciousness you fucking moron, learning is only one area of AI, look it up on the internet, AI isn't about making something as human as possible or making a clone of a human
>>337370174
are you supporting my point or arguing with me
i'm really sleepy anon
>>337370227
>Its really sad big name game devs are restricted to program their AIs as simple as they can,
They're "big name" because they cut corners and spend money like Jews.
In this case, they spend half their budget on marketing/advertising, a quarter on graphics, and the remaining quarter on everything else.
>>337370343
i'm sorry. i'm just making fun of Computer Man for leaping into this thread and waving around his important-sounding computer job that actually isn't related to the topic. sleep well anon.
>>337370561
oh ok thanks
>>337369251
Condition zero AI has the intelligence to camp in the bomb zone after they have installed the C4 and throw flashbangs just before a raid.
>>337369797
>A core requirement of AI is that it should be able to learn, right?
Not necessarily.
The idea behind AI is that it can respond in situations that are not explicitly programmed.
If you just have a massive decision tree, where it's essentially
>i see player
>shoot player
it's more akin to a "bot" (as people have been calling them in this thread).
If you take input from various things, then determine the best course of action based on a weighted score, that would be considered AI.
If you take input, and it learns from past actions, that's a branch of AI called machine learning.
AI + ML = much more efficient, much more deadly opponents in games.
>>337370123
Deep Blue would be an example of AI without ML.
>>337370227
I think it would be pretty out of place in a game that consists of watch this cutscene, walk to this place, press the button to jump to the next glowing white ledge and press the button to kill the next man with a pea shooter
>>337355307
Mercenary was fucking GOAT
>>337370651
>Deep Blue would be an example of AI without ML.
Yep, that's what I think too. But the person I quoted doesn't think so
>>337352053
AI is never meant to be smart.
It's never made to be smart.
It's made for player's enjoyment.
And it's purpose is to be defeated in a flashy way. That's it.
STALKER has decent AI compared to most games. Lot of unpredictable encounters
>>337370561
>his important-sounding computer job
a PHD candidate has a thesis, you dummy
if his thesis fell into that very specific realm (which most PHD theses do, as it's competitive and specialized) he would indeed be qualified to speak about it
it's not an undergrad degree stuffed with general shit like physics and spanish.
>>337369724
Well you really just made my point for me, even with a 50% increase in price it's still not enough to fund a full development team
>>337370227
>dark souls invasion
fixed, senpai :^)
why make above average ai at all?
