Why is this game so fucking awful and unfinished? every level feels like Marble zone with a shit ton of gimmicks.
Fucking sonic 4 is better than this.
tfw actually do prefer sonic 4 to sonic 3tfw people think its a bait every time
>>337209340
why are you a faggot?
>>337209340
>>337210454
work on your bait
>>337209340
OP is making fun of the people who bitch about gimmicks in Nintendo games. Right?
No problem op. S3K do suck ass. Sonic 1, 2, and Cd are much better
>>337211803
I can see how someone can rationalize 2 and CD being better. I think it's stupid but I can see how.
Not with Sonic 1. There is no way you could rationalize that being better than 3&K.
And if you say "S3&K is too long" you're retarded, because that is not a legit complaint about it since it's very substantial start to finish (and isn't that long anyway), and either way wouldn't make it a worse game.
>>337209340
>every level feels like Marble zone with a shit ton of gimmicks.
git gud, fag
>>337214802
Thats actually my beef with it
S3K is overly long and repetitive. 1 2 and cd are more concise and short and better for it. Frankly, the 2d sonics arent interesting enough to make a full epic out of. All of them but 3K realize this
>>337211803
>1
>cd
>good
>>337215109
you aren't supposed to play
>>337215168
1s a generic platformer with interesting characters and setting
CD is a psychadelic more surreal version of sonic, while 2 goes the more realistic way that the series ultimately stuck with
>>337215238
???
>>337215109
Sonic 1 is both shorter and a much crappier experience in comparison.
Not bad. Just not nearly as clean, well thought out, and substantial as what S3&K offers, in terms of everything, gameplay, level design, graphics, music, etc.
Your opinion is literally that a shorter crappier experience is better than a greater experience that lasts longer.
>>337216468
A shorter game that knows its limits and when to call it quits is better in my book. A lot of levels in S3K, mainly act 2s, just drag on forever it feels like. Theres cheaply placed walls and spikes made to just halt all progress. Momentum is tossed aside in favor of constant start and stops, short hops. Sonic 3 on its own is ok i suppose, but sonic and knuckles is a terrible game and the worst of the old school sonics. They all play the same except some are glitcher than others. I prefer sonics model in 1/2/cd over 3k. Level design, went over that, it sucks ass and drags on. I think the music in 3k is pretty forgettable too, its one of the few sonic osts i dont have downloaded because theres nothing worth listening to outside of hydrocity 1, ice cap 1/2, flying battery 1, sky sanctuary (which was remastered with new intrstuments in generations) and doomsday. If i ever do play them again, its going to be with the game muted and other music playing. Maybe a sonic cd or unleashed track, since those are the best osts in sonic.
>>337216840
It's opinions like these that show me just why people argue so much about Sonic's gameplay. These seem like completely legitimate opinions, and it's impossible to argue that they aren't. Really what I'm seeing is that you're playing Sonic from a very skewed perspective and getting very little out of the primary experience that you should.
>>337217223
There is no experience. Sonic was created to challenge mario in the market with an edgier and cooler attitude. The games were just regular platformers with a physics gimmick and slopey levels here and there to highlight it. The levels arent actually built for speed or physics based challenges. Again, 1/2/cd realize this and have shorter stages because the core gameplay isnt that exciting, but 3k extend this. I know this would trigger a lot of hardcore autists but I would put a few 3D games above 3k because even if theyre padded out or glitchier, theyre generally more exciting to play. But I have to watch my opinions here, otherwise the one man autist army will swarm in and post his classic vs modern webm
>>337217472
>There is no experience. Sonic was created to challenge mario in the market with an edgier and cooler attitude.
Proving my point. This is so false it hurts.
>The games were just regular platformers with a physics gimmick and slopey levels here and there to highlight it.
As is this. The original Sonic games are far beyond regular platformers. They're so technically advanced that people have trouble recreating them to this day. Even fucking Sega themselves can't do it anymore. You'll see endless beginner game tutorials for Mario clones and generic platformers, but you'll never see a beginner game tutorial that comes anywhere close to walking through the creation of a Sonic clone. This is coming from someone who has a thorough understanding of how platformers and the Sonic games work. Sonic is leagues more complex and mechanically rich than an ordinary platformer, and that's largely why it stood out so much. Even the presentation, graphics and music are much more substantial than typical platformers.
>>337217749
The mechanics are there but the level designs arent, which is what im saying. The physics were never a marketing point. The marketing points were blast processing, speed, and being a cooler alternative to mario. The presentation, graphics, musics, all true, i agree with that. Personally what i like about sonic is all the different interpretations sonic team has had over the years. I wish they stopped 2D sonic at sonic 2 and got to work on an early 3D saturn sonic, or took the helm of sonic xtreme. Beyond that, in games like adventure, heroes, shadow, or unleashed, or colors, i like all the experimentation the series has gone through. I realize this is a radical and contested point among reviewers and fans, but i enjoyed the emerald hunting, or the team based heroes, or shooting guns, or climbing scratching and kicking with the werehog, or powering up with wisps. Things like this always gave the series innovation and allowed it to not stagnate. By the time sonic 3 rolled out, i didnt like the direction it took with the new level design and sprite, and sonic and knuckles was just pure tedium, like a cry for help, "please...were done with this shit" from sonic team. Sonic to me has always been about innovation, speed, surrealism. Physics and all that...yeah its nice but most of the levels dont compliment the engine its using at all
>>337209340
>>337218140
Yes, those were the marketing points, and JUST the marketing points. That was to get the consumer interested, and beyond that were actually good substantial games, which hardly even lined up with the marketing memes. Sega saw nothing but branding and marketability, but the devs behind Sonic had a real vision.
The rest of what you're saying is only proving my point further. You are indifferent to the original gameplay and to you, the experimentation is no big deal. To you, it's only different, and not less, because you only recognize the original gameplay on the surface, so the total loss in substance with future installments goes right over your head, they're all about equal in quality to you.
The "innovation" and experimentation they did, the problem was not just that consistency was compromised, but quality too. Things like emerald hunting and werehog are very shallow gameplay compared to the classics. Even the modern main gameplay that isn't some random unfitting gimmick is much more shallow.
Whether the level design of the classics really complimented that is another debate. Speedrunners have shown just how creatively the levels can be played by playing with the physics skillfully and doing so is incredibly fun, but if you play it purely in the most contrived way possible, it will seem like the levels have little to offer for the mechanics and are just for show.
>>337209340
>>337218659
Nobody gave a toss about the physics of the old sonic games at the beginning. What kept people interested was things like loops, or the camera not being able to keep up in chemical plant, or carnival night throwing you forward at the end, or the epic escape at the end of sky sanctuary...sections that show off cool things that at the time, only a character like sonic could pull off.
Please dont lecture me on the gameplay of the originals. All i did when i was a kid was play sonic 1 and 2. I begged my parents for a sega cd just to play sonic cd. I can beat sonic 1 still in like 25/30 minutes because of how much ive played it. I know how these games work inside and out. What classic sonic fans fail to realize is that, while there is a good engine in place, the level designs rarely compliment this engine. Ironically this is very evident in sonic 1 with levels like labyrinth and marble, but the game as a whole has a cool classic sega vibe to it and it was my first game. Ive pretty much mastered it, grew up with it, play it often...i cant dislike it even if many consider it the worst of the originals. Im just a fan of sonic. Dont fool yourself into thinking the first bad sonic games were shadow and 06. The 90s was loaded with garbage spin offs and handheld games too. I wish there was just more fans of sonic rather than classic sonic autists who go stir crazy on someone who dares call 3k average or puts 3D games above it. Would honestly load up a emerald hunting or werehog stage any day of the week before I revisit 3k again. Its just a garbage game to me bro. Level design, music, and updated sprites and graphics are total downgrades from the true classic sonic
>>337219101
I have no delusions that there weren't bad Sonic games in the classic era and I do not defend them. Sonic Labyrinth was a terrible idea, Sonic 3D Blast is the product of rushed and poor decision making (despite having great music), Sonic Blast (the Game Gear game) is all kinds of shit, Sonic Spinball 8 bit is easily one of the worst games ever made.
The level designs don't explicitly recognize or compliment the mechanics, this is something I've recognized in studying them. However, it's very possible to carve out all kinds of routes and scenarios through skill, and mechanically the games offer far more than any Sonic game made since. If you play the games at face value and play them the most contrived way possible, of course they'll seem boring or even obtuse. This is the basis of a poor opinion of the games, because it neglects the majority of what they have to offer, it's a skewed perspective.
There's a difference between "being a classic autist that goes crazy when someone calls 3K bad" and someone who can legitimately recognize a great game and gets annoyed when someone with ill conceived opinions tries to bash it for stupid reasons. This is also a concern for the future of the series since bad opinions can and do influence its direction.
I never thought about it until recently but some of the worst aspects of modern Sonic came from S3&K
>>337219819
This is probably because Iizuka joined then and had a large hand in S3&K. However S3&K was the only time these elements were actually good. Once the series had its disgusting facelift and Iizuka took over completely, it turned into moronic garbage.
>>337219641
See man youre telling me things that i know already. I know exactly what youre trying to say but its pointless against me. What you have to say would be better suited to someone who comes in a sonic thread and says classic sonic completely sucks and 3D is way better. I dont think classic sonic sucks, just 3K does. I couldve went on to almost perfect 3k like i know 1/2/cd but i never got into the game. Kid or adult, i always found the game to just drag on in every way except a few levels where it smartly plays to the engine, like hydrocity or ice cap, but these levels are far and few. Knuckles levels have tons of stupid gimmicks that just exist to slow the game down. The see saws in mushroom hill. The magnets with spiked sides going up and down in flying battery. The ghosts and sand warps in sandopolis. The exploding enemies in lava reef. The clouds and teleporters in lava reef. Every thing in that game is designed to just be annoying as fuck and it shows clearly. If that was their intention, then they did a fine job. And if fans consider this repetition to be the height of the series, well then i want nothing to do with this fan base and i wholly reject this garbage game.
Anyway i cant go on. Sonic fans have this preconceived notion that everyone must love s3k and cherish it and call it a masterpiece. You included. Arguing against a mentality as firm as that one is a waste of time. The fact that you think the 3D games are mechanically barren when youtubing a speed run of any given adventure, heroes, unleashed (yes, even the werehog has some techniques to always pull up > jump > stay as cannon ball > keep momentum to grab next platform), or generations shows that it takes a lot of practice to achieve these record runs, similar to the classic sonic games. I had a fun chat but ill have to concede here. At the very least, you didnt just say (you) and run off and for that im thankful. Take care and maybe ill see you in the next sonic thread brother
>>337220293
A problem here is that you think my appreciation for S3&K is just mindless parroting. I love S3&K for legitimate reasons that I have continued to re-examine since I first played it in childhood. I've kept nostalgia in check to ensure that I love this game for real reasons. You are not being argued against because S3&K is some sacred chaste that must not be criticized. It's because you've gone and used poor opinions to criticize a genuinely great game that is considered great for critically thought out reasons. Bandwagoners exist but I'm not one of them and you can't use that as a scapegoat for anyone who disagrees with you. I've given you every reason to believe the contrary yet you still relied on that argument.
The rest of what you said is proof that you do not know the games "inside and out". I do. I know how they all work on a technical level. The modern games can indeed be practiced for speedruns, but this is not a testament to how mechanically substantial they are. They're driven by very static directions that drive a half automated Sonic, and there's minimal variable influences in movement; the majority of time optimization comes not from mastering a spectrum of nuanced and organic physics, but from little more than picking the right moments to press a button, or how quickly a QTE was executed, or switching Sonic to the correct lane for an alternate, also half automated on rails route. All of the modern games are loaded with shallow substitutions and are basically a collection of disjointed minigames that don't form a cohesive whole, but are instead a pile of minor gimmicks haphazardly stitched together and trying to form a complete game. While the classics their own collections of gimmicks throughout, they were secondary to an underlying core gameplay that drove the games, while the modern games don't have that.
>>337209340
>Fucking sonic 4 is better than this.
Settle down, hoss. I do think that Sonic 3 (&K) is a tad underwhelming compared to Sonic 2 at times, though. I find Sonic 2 easier to revisit frequently.
>>337218140
>The physics were never a marketing point. The marketing points were blast processing, speed, and being a cooler alternative to mario.
This is true, but the game design itself reflected a preoccupation with replicating pinball physics and momentum and building a side scrolling platformer around them. The level design wasn't always quite excellent, you're right, but give the games credit where it's due.
Jesus Christ walls of text
It's just sonic you dumb niggers. Sonic games were never that good. Mario is leagues above in terms of content, level design, and pure fun. FUCK Sonic.
>>337222308
I'll remember to go into a Mario thread and post the exact same thing but switching around Mario and Sonic.Which would actually be the true statement.
2 would be a lot easier to accept as people's favourite Sonic game if the last third of it wasn't so fucking terrible
>>337223668
Only Oil Ocean and Metropolis kinda suck.
>>337225914
Those two zones together make a big chunk of the game though. Metropolis in particular is long as fuck.
Wing Fortress is pretty weak too.
>>337215109
If you played 3 and K separately when they were released, you wouldn't care it's "too long." It was designed as two games. Putting them together is a bonus.
>>337223668
I... actually agree. It really peters out at the end. Really disappointed by Wing Fortress and shit.
>>337226152
Wing Fortress is too short to hold the game back much.
>>337226512
The flying segment was really dry and not exciting. And also had some of the worst music in the series. Music is one of the things that would let me forgive a boring or uninteresting zone.
>>337226512
It's hard to seperate it from 3 minute cutscene Sky Chase though.
I actually quite like Oil Ocean but Hill Top, Metropolis, Sky Chase, Wing Fortress and Death Egg really drag the game down.
The quality and consistency of 3&K pushes it far beyond 2.
HARD TIMES
>>337226643
>The quality and consistency of 3&K pushes it far beyond 2
>Carnival Night
>Sandopolis
No matter how bad the last third of 2 is, it will never be as awful as those.
>>337226734
For you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2OWC5Hosv8
>>337226804
>>Carnival Night
BAWWWWWWW THE DRUM
>>Sandopolis
BAWWWWWWW THE GHOSTS
Those levels are fine, You're the problem. At their very worst, they aren't boring and everything at that point from Sonic 2 totally is.
Even if we do count those off as "awful" thats still only one level in each of those games. Not the entire last third of the predecessor.
>>337227068
>BAWWWWWWW THE DRUM
>BAWWWWWWW THE GHOSTS
No dear, even without them, those levels suck.
>>337209340
>>337209340
>>337226643
>The quality and consistency of 3&K pushes it far beyond 2.
Eh, no. 3&K beats 2 in sheer scope, but there are several levels, and moments within levels, that prevent it from being a superior game to me.
>>337228468
>but there are several levels, and moments within levels, that prevent it from being a superior game to me.
>that prevent it from being a superior game to me.
>superior game to me.
>to me.
>to me.
>to me.
You know... objectively 1's a better game than 2 for quality and consistency but give me a choice and I'll pick 2 to play every time.
Some times you can look outside of your personal bias and see things for what they really are.
I like Sonic 2 the best, but 3&K has some real fucking next level shit. The Death Egg level in 3 is one of the best designed platformer levels of all fucking time.
>unfinished
Because it is. You need S&K for the full package.
>>337228728
Objectivity doesn't work the way you think it does. I think Sonic 2 is a more tightly designed and compelling game.
>>337221374
This anon knows his shit and I wish there were more like him in these fucking terrible threads.
>>337228728
>You know... objectively 1's a better game than 2 for quality and consistency
>consistency
Green Hill Zone sets a tone. The tone is "this game is going to be fast paced platforming". Well, 2 whole exhilarating minutes later and you're already done with it. Alright. Fair enough, first level, bound to be short and sweet right? Then the very next Zone, the VERY NEXT ZONE, is Marble Zone. A stage which is slow, plodding, and, frankly, clunky. Half of Act 2 is just waiting around for platforms to do their thing. Spring Yard is better, but there's still tons of waiting around in it. Then the game doesn't get fast again until Star Light, the penultimate Zone in the game.
Now I know what you're thinking. "MUH SPEED" right? Well before you start memeing hear me out: Sonic 1 was the first game in the series. At this point, they still weren't sure how to fully incorporate speed and platforming together and make it work for an entire game. Each Zone appears to be designated as "Fast" or " Slow Platforming", with no real mix of the two, (Spring Yard Zone comes close, but again, way too much waiting around for platforms) and with there being more " Slow Platforming" than "Fast" Zones, it doesn't make the game very consistent. Look, Sonic 1 is great, but Sonic 2 is where they were able to really blend that speed and platforming into one tightly compacted package. Yes, it has it's "down" moments, but when it's up, it's fucking UP.
Sonic 1 has a lot more down moments than up. There's no balance, and as a result the game suffers from it. (Sonic CD is Sonic 1's problems magnified x1,000.) Sonic 2 is what Sonic 1 would have been had they had more time to really flesh their ideas out, and it shows.
>>337231409
>Marble Zone
>Slow
>Sonic 2 is what Sonic 1 would have been had they had more time to really flesh their ideas out
Kill yourself
>>337210454
that's because Sonic 4 brought back old problems from the 2D games, didn't fix them, and added new problems on its own
>>337211803
>Sonic 1
>Marble Zone
>Labyrinth Zone
>Sonic CD
>Collision Chaos
>Tidal Tempest
>WACKY WORKBENCH
>>337232046
>He never got gud
>>337215109
>Thats actually my beef with it. S3K is overly long and repetitive
You can finish the game within a short time-period, if you have the skill to accomplish that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meVLQjud6zI
Also, having ADD does not legitimize your complaint against S3&K
