Does Sonic 3 and Knuckles have any objectively bad zones? The only one I think I can say I don't love is Death Egg Zone act 2, and both Hidden Palace and Sky Sanctuary are so short they're hardly zones.
Launch Base.
Not a fan of Lava Reef Act 2.
>>337100380
Marble Garden is pretty boring
Carnival Zone is the worst area in the whole franchise.
Launch Base is tedious shit.
And then every &Knuckles area except Mushroom, Battery and the final level are bad.
Not overly fond of Sandopolis
This game is perfect imo. It is the epitome of a sonic game, and all sonic games should use it as an example.
>>337100380
launch base, marble garden are pretty boring ans lazily made
while i enjoy lava reef it has some really dumb design choices
carnival night is just trash, even the music blows
sandopilis act 2 is shitty
infact a lot of s&k levels just flat out suck
>>337100738
What, release half a game and then force people to pay for the other half a year later?
Bad zones? No, but it has a lot of long, monotonous, boring ones. Marble Garden and Carnival Night come to mind.
The only good level in the Knuckles portion is Flying Battery Zone.
All of the other levels are trash in Knuckles portion.
In the Sonic 3 portion, almost every level is trash or goes on for way too long or has a huge annoying gimmick. Ice Cap zone is basically the only one that has none of those.
Seriously, I dunno why people love Sonic 3 so much, it has a lot of problems.
Bad starting level, majority of levels in general save Ice Cap and Carnival Night have huge problems.
Only thing that saves a Sonic 3 level is the music.
Except Marble Garden. Fuck Marble Garden.
>>337100940
>I dunno why people love Sonic 3 so much
The game's sprites are ugly as fuck, too.
I assume people like it because it's got "muh epic story!!1" or something like that. It's a fine game, but I personally put it below the first two.
>>337100656
>>337100834
>>337100894
Marble Garden is the third best zone in the game. It's huge and wide open, and the setting of ancient rome is so comfy it makes me shiver with every step.
>>337101130
No one likes sonic 3 for it's story at all. That is not the case.
I still dunno why people think Sonic 3 is the best of them, seriously I don't see it.
Sonic 1 and 2 are both superior.
>>337101130
>Putting 3&K above 1
What the fuck are you on? 2 I can understand, but 1 suuuucks after Green Hill Zone!
>>337101201
Oh, yeah. I definitely put Sonic 1 above Sonic 3&K. Absolutely.
>>337101179
Of course someone had to defend one of the worst zones from the original games on /v/.
And of course it's some retarded comfyfag talking about shivering from excitement.
Goddamn.
Wow, this thread is chock full of retards with the worst opinions I've ever seen.
>>337101313
>waaa criticism of my favorite game
Here comes the baby.
>>337101313
Welcome to /v/
>>337101190
I wouldn't say no one. I've seen people who love the game describe it as being "epic". They also like the multiple playable characters, the save feature, and just the fact that it's really long. Which I never got because more mediocrity is just more mediocrity. But I digress.
>>337101341
Don't worry about me, I'm leaving your shitty troll thread.
>>337101306
I'm not surprised a lazy cynical slob who stopped enjoying video games 20 years ago but can't stop playing due to obsession is the one complaining about the pinnacle of replayability.
>>337101409
You and I both know you're going to lurk until your incredible bias causes you to lash out at another post.
>>337101179
>It's huge and wide open
Only the first act and even then most paths lead to walls.
>and the setting of ancient rome is so comfy
That's nice. Also irrelevant.
What's the most forgettable zone and why is it Hill Top?
>>337100380
Sonic 3 in general is overrated. Not nearly as good as Sonic 2.Even when combined with Sonic and Knuckles. Quality over quantity.
The problem with Sonic 3 is that most of the time it sort of feels like it's on auto-play. Probably because most of the levels are designed to keep you moving quickly through long, obstacle-less paths to exploit the speed gimmick. The game is easy as balls and it doesn't require much effort.
>>337101556
Only thing I remember about Hill Top is the song. I feel Lava Reef Zone is close.
>>337101556
I like Hill Top. Catchy song, clouds in the background. It's nice.
>>337101257
I have no idea how you can reach that opinion.
Sonic 1, as it should, establishes the core elements of what Sonic is and what he does: He uses the terrain in order to gain speed and it's up to the player's intuition and skill to maintain that speed for as long as they can while avoiding obstacles and dispatching enemies.
Green Hill Zone performs all of these functions perfectly, as its varied terrain shows how each tiny nick in the terrain affects Sonic's speed and jump arc. It's great!
But then comes Marble Garden.
Marble Garden literally throws everything that the game JUST established out the window. No slopes, no exploration, no experimentation. Just spikes, lava and sadness. The game redeems itself a little bit after Marble Garden with Zones like Spring Yard Zone, but then fucks it all up again with Labyrinth Zone, which features the same problems as Marble Garden, except add water.
>>337101556
I actually consider Hill Top to be the better version of Marble Garden. It has much more going for it.
>>337101776
You're mixing up Marble Garden with Marble. At least it had a nice song.
>>337101556
Hill Top is my favorite zone from Sonic 2. Even if it re-uses some assets from Emerald Hill, the music and being above the clouds feels so cool. Fuck the lava room though.
>>337100380
Sonic 2 > Sonic 1 > Sonic CD > Sonic 3&K
>>337101840
Oh yeah. My bad. Well then, there's another issue that I have with Sonic 1! Its Zone names are boring too!
Marble garden
Death egg
Carnival Night
Launch base act 1
Sandopolis
Lava reef has a nice theme but just feels really cramped
I remember the disappoint I had when playing this game, after reading and hearing about it for years after how perfect it was. I heard you have to replay it a few times for it to fit in, but after 5-6 times, I just couldnt anymore. Tell the truth, I had more fun with the different gameplays in the 3D games than the constant up and downs S3K had. Sonic and knuckles in particular, is probably one of the worst 2D games, up there with 1, CD, and Advance 3.
Unpopular opinion:3D sonic > 2D Sonic
>>337101556
Everything after Mystic Cave (Besides Wing Fortress) is shitty.
That's why Sonic and Knuckles is superior despite being slower than molasses in parts, because it doesn't shit the bed in the 3rd act like 2.
>>337101901
To be fair, Marble and Labyrinth are the only ones that are that simple. I like Star Light and Scrap Brain.
>>337100380
Casino Night act 2. None of us ever realized we had to press up and down on those fucking cylinder things and so we never got past it until I started emulating in adulthood and looked it up online.
>>337101915
I agree that 3D > 2D IN CONCEPT. I just have yet to see Sonic Team actually live up to that potential. There looks to be a fangame in the works that looks pretty good, though. Anyone got any webms of that from when the creator was posting pics and stuff of his progress?
>>337101992
Interesting that the two Zones with the plainest names are the two shitty ones, eh?
I hated Sandopolis even though the boss is good. I never really liked Sonic's labyrinth style zones.
>>337102058
I don't really mind Marble, but Labyrinth can fuck off. I don't care for Spring Yard either. I get that it's the precursor to the casino stages in later games, but I still find it really dull.
>>337102058
I dont really care about the physics as long as they fit the games level design. What works in 2D doesnt always work in 3D, nor does it need to be replicated. My favorite Sonic games would probably have to be Heroes, SA2, Advance 2, Rush Adventure, and Unleashed.
Then again I started with sonic on the dreamcast, so maybe that has something to do with it.
>>337102340
Oh, yeah. I dig that. I just think that the formula of "use slopes to go fast, then maintain it for as long as you can through loops and obstacles" has potential in 3D just as much as the Boost Formula did. It would certainly have been a better follow-up to Generations than Lost Cause.
>>337101776
Marble Zone is fine. When you're good at it, it just becomes an obstacle of long jumps and well-timed spin dashes. It's a really short zone that never wears out it's welcome.
That's how I feel about Sonic 1, really. It's just enough Sonic that it never feels boring. It also doesn't hurt that the game is designed to be more of a platformer and less of a go fast until you win fest like most of the later ones.
>>337102469
I secretly think Lost World was some crazy attempt at rebooting Sonic Xtremes concepts, fused with mario elements to appeal to Mario fans since it was a wii u exclusive. I got a wii u just to play that game, similar to how I got a wii just to play colors. I felt colors as a whole was a massive downgrade to Unleashed and with LW, it felt like I was playing a mario game with some sonic traits and tributes tossed in. Hated it. Couldnt dig that art style, weird running and parkor controls, story/rivals/charaterization. Its the last time I buy a nintendo console for a sonic game, is what I'm trying to say
Have to say, as a bigger 3D sonic fan, Im getting tired of these cop out abundance of 2D sections in the console games. I liked how it was back then in the early to late 2000s- Consoles would get fully 3D adventures, and handhelds would get speedy, sugary 2D games. But sega has since downsized so I understand the cuts and laziness to nu Sonic, but it still sucks man
>>337101776
>He uses the terrain in order to gain speed and it's up to the player's intuition and skill to maintain that speed for as long as they can while avoiding obstacles and dispatching enemies.
But Sonic 2 and 3 never do this. In those games you never have to earn your speed. You just hold down and mash on the buttons and off you go. Everyone's a winner, yay!
>>337103021
Tell me about it. I really hope that all of these hints at SA3 really do come to fruition this year at the 25th Anniversary party.
>>337103105
Arin? Is that you?
>>337103105
Here's the thing though, Sonic 3 addresses the potential overpowered-ness of the spin dash by making these really tall stages with steep slopes that are very difficult to roll back up. For example, you're essentially trapped in the last area of Launch Base Zone Act 3 once you go down the slope and hit the final star post.
>>337103138
>Arin? Is that you?
Nope.
Now tell me, am I wrong? If I am, please correct me, using examples.
>>337103256
That doesn't enhance the gameplay, though. What makes the gameplay of Sonic so fun isn't how fast you go, it's the physics and taking advantage of the ramps and bumps in the terrain to propel yourself. Going fast is the reward for being good. There's no satisfaction in the spin dash or in the games where all you do is boost forward as easily and as often as you can. That's when the games become a monotonous chore.
>>337103105
>>337103445
Let me guess, you also prefer Kirby's Dreamland 1 to all the others right?
>>337103580
Kirby's Dreamland is the only game in existence easier than Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
>>337103267
Certainly! Sure, there's the Spin Dash and that does help you get up to speed, but that's only half of the puzzle, you see.
The other half is MAINTAINING that speed through quick reflexes, practice and a little ingenuity. Take this speed run of Emerald Hill Act 1 for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAQeCxT0Fgc
The player uses Spin Dash to get up to speed, but uses it sparingly as you must stop in order to activate it in the first place. The rest is quick short-hops, well-timed jumps and some neat uses of bouncing off of enemies. If you choose to play by constantly stopping in order to charge the Spin Dash then, overall, you're wasting time. Ya see?
>>337103662
At least Kirby is short and compact. It knows when to quit, unlike Sonic.
>>337103662
Kirby's Dreamland has an unlockable Dante Must Die mode, though.
>>337103662
>This nigga didn't play Extra Mode
>>337103138
It could be SA3 or any sequel to a pre-2010 Sonic game for me and ill be just satisfied. Wouldnt mind another generations either if classic sonic is scrapped. Interesting fact, ryan drummond was originally contacted for voicing sonic in a new game and early generations documents say that there would be 3 playstyles-probably signifying that adventure sonic would be in the game. Would rather take adventure and boost sonic over the snoozefest that CS was in generations. Completely missed the point of genesis sonic.
>>337103695
>The player uses Spin Dash to get up to speed
But that's exactly what I was arguing. In Sonic 2 and 3, all you have to do is use the spin dash to get your speed. The levels aren't designed to allow for you to earn it. Maintaining that speed isn't hard at all when you consider they don't put many obstacles in your path. All you have to know is that when you see a hill, push down to become invincible and jump out of your roll once you're safe.
That isn't to say Sonic 2 isn't also an excellent game, I just think the stage design isn't as well-thought out as Sonic 1's, and the spin-dash doesn't add anything other than instant gratification (which isn't actually all that gratifying after the first 5 minutes, naturally).
>>337103735
There's nothing wrong with Kirby. It's a perfect 'babby's first game'. That's not an insult, by the way.
>>337103971
I suppose there's something to that. That's why I like the Mach State mechanic in Advance 2 and 3. The Spin Dash is there, for sure, but you're not going to be hitting top speed by doing it. The Spin Dash will help you get up to a decent gate, but it would never get you all the way up to maximum.
>>337103920
Preach it, brother.
>>337100380
sandopolis, it goes on way to fucking long
>1999-2004 sonic is never ever coming back
Lets say that theoretically....THEORETICALLY...Unleashed gets a PC port. Would it have higher requirements since it has better graphics than Generations?
>>337103971
TryKnuckles Chaotixif you want a Sonic game where you earn your speed by mastering the game's mechanics.
>>337105023
Sonic's problem is that he's tied by the legs to a sinking ship of a company.
Scratch that, they sank years ago, at this point Sonic is submerged underwater, holding his breath, and there's a timer above his head counting down.
>>337105730
I dig Knuckles Chaotix a bit. Even if the level design is all over the place. Really nice special stages, though.
>>337105694
They ran on the same hardware so the requirements should be the same. The recommended specs might be higher though.
>>337105781
Sega is doing pretty good in japan. Atlus USA is giving some pointers at Sega America. The sonic boom games together are sitting at over 700k sales, almost as much as vanquish, an actual good game, and sky high above binary domain, an original IP from the yakuza team. Sega isnt going anywhere for a while to come. Sonic though? Ever since lost world, its up in the air again. Its like 2006 when it seemed like there was no end to the misery but Unleashed was the light at the end of the tunnel and represented hope and gave everyone the boost trilogy of games.
>>337105921
That was my best bet to. If every fur on the werehog is rendered on pc and its not ported right...god damnit. Shits gonna be nvidia hair physics tier
>>337100380
Carnival Night Zone had some shit level design (especially in Act II).
You know what every advance game had? Incredible ice zones, those were the best in the series
Sandopolis
>>337106176
>Random underwater section
>Random underwater section that serves no purpose because the water lowers as soon as you enter it
this game is better
>>337106552
Well, duh. But that's like comparing Citizen Kane to Airplane!.
Carnival Night is overly long and annoying
Sandopolis is overly long too
sonic 3
>angel island
>hydrocity
>ice cap
sonic and knuckles
>mushroom hill
>flying battery
Why is this game rated so highly again?
>>337108272
Sonic 3 & Knuckles is overly long and annoying.
>>337106552
>>337106669
thtat game doesn' compare to sonic
>>337108891
What sonic games achieve this perfect balance? Sonic 3 and knuckles is to long and annoying for its own good, meanwhile games like Generations are way to short. I think sonic 2 and sonic adventure 2, for example, hit the right feeling of not to short but not super long either. Anything else?
>>337109303
Sonic Colors
Sonic Adventure 1
Sonic Rush
Sonic Rush Adventure
>>337109303
Sonic 2 is the only one that comes to mind, really.
There's other games that have similar length, like the Advance games, but I wouldn't really recommend them too much since the design of the levels becomes repetitive too quickly, making them feel longer than they actually are.
>All this sudden Sonic 3 hate
Did Arin do one of his retrospectives again?
>>337109431
Colors is also short yet also repetitive. They shouldve made 3 killer acts instead of 6 drawn out ones, with act 1 and sometimes 2 being the highlight
Adventure 1 is also pretty good
Rush is a tad to short feeling but if counting both sonic and blaze stories, id count it in
Rush Adventure also has great pacing thanks to an expanded story, materials to grind, islands to find, and new minigames, definitely this one
>>337109503
I agree. Theyre good games yet start to feel repetitive for longterm play. But then again, that is why they are good handheld games. Easy to pick up and do a run of hot crater or twinkle snow, but the long haul is a bit eh. Id also say Unleashed HD has some pretty good length. Its not short enough to leave you wanting more, uses its assets well, but also ends on a high note and feels like theres closure to your adventure.
So in the end we have
Sonic 2
Sonic Rush
Sonic Adventure 1 and 2
Sonic Rush Adventure
Sonic Unleashed HD
Ironically, these are my favorite sonic games
>>337109782
>hate
Nah. Just criticism. Sonic 3 is still an excellent game. Even the 'weakest' of the Genesis Sonics is leagues beyond most video games.
>>337109782
There are people that take anything Arin says seriously? Why? He's proven time and time again that he's a total when it comes to playing videogames.
I'd like a traditional 2D Sonic game that's like the Green Hill Zone in Sonic 1 that's all about playing around with the physics. Just make it really challenging and inventive in the later levels. Maybe relegate the spin dash to power-ups or maybe a special meter or something so it's not OP.
>>337110235
Well theres the fangame but thats 3D...thats about all for physics related sonic games coming up.
>>337100738
> there has never been a true sequel
It's the same with Mario desu. Mario World was the definitive title, and Nintendo still haven't topped it in its genre (2D platformer). But at least Nintendo really tried. Actually I take that back. Sonic Team really tried as well, and succeeded, with Adventure 1. It's just that most of the rest of the games haven't worked out since.
Anyway, the point I'd make is that 2D platformers kind of died a death starting in 1995, and really only came back in an sense in the last maybe 4-5 years, if at all. S3&K was the swansong of a genre that built the industry from the ground up. A good 10-15 year run of fun.
They never made a sequel to this game because, fundamentally, they stopped making these kinds of games. You see a few platformers on handhelds and the like, but it's not the same energy or experience as a game made and designed for a mainline console.
Tastes change, and the industry moves on. Trouble is, as times goes by, it seems to forget more than it learns with each new generation. Part of me hopes that devs will go back to the old styles and classics and find new inspiration, but most of me knows that AAA is a new hollywood now, and games are designed by executives and coke addicts.
Sometimes I want to be 8 again.
>>337111517
>but most of me knows that AAA is a new hollywood now, and games are designed by executives and coke addicts.
well said actually.
>>337111517
Yeah, 2D platformers kind of died after the mid-90s. There were a couple of great ones after '94. Ristar and Yoshi's Island come to mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtSmFc-hHrw
>>337111716
>yfw the music are always good
Best plateformer OST (along with Rayman Legends)
>>337101556
I always hit the rocks on Hill Top. It's the point where you ask yourself, "do i really want to spend the next hour finishing this game?"
>>337100593
That fucking music though.
The game was perfect.
>>337111817
Not to dis rayman legends but its soundtrack is nowhere near as diverse or good as unleasheds.
