>we need an multiplayer rpg
>say no more
When will these meme well and truly die?
What thought are you trying to convey here?
>>336854751
There are many multiplayer RPG which don't use the Holy Trinity system.
Basicly any action RPG with Multiplayer option.
What notion are you trying to exude here?
>>336854842
That the trinity's existence is bad.
Not that OP has a substantive alternative for building a cohesive and directly graspable team mechanic that the masses could engage in.
>>336854751
Pantheon
4some.
There is only one true master race.
>>336855005
>That the trinity's existence is bad.
Yeah, just take it out.
It worked fine for Guild Wars 2.
>>336855086
Guild wars 2 would have been great if it didn't have so few abilities to use at a time.
>>336854751
>support classes
>debuffing classes
>hybrids, such as offtanks that can fend off adds and still dispatch them/deal respectable damage
That and much more, out and simplified in the trinity to cater to the fucking mouthbreathers playing mmos in [current year]
No fun allowed
>>336854751
>mfw i fucking love the holy trinity
>implying tanking as a warrior in wotlk, almost always maintaining full threat while outdpsing everyone, wasn't one of the best experiences i've had in a video game
>>336854751
If you play MMOs in a """squad""" then you have autism.
Healers are sperglords.
Don't play anything but the knight / fire magician class.
The multiplayer aspect is only there for PvP and bragging rights, faggots.
>>336855080
>>336854751
Removetanks___, boom game improved
All you need are two types: tank that does damage and healing mage that can do damage.
>>336855424
Not sure if you're a dumb healer or a useless tank.
>LOL GET RID OF TRINITY
>how?
>LOL GET RID OF IT
so someone explain to me how exactly do you accomplish getting rid of the trinity system. because literally EVERY game is a system of numbers, and when it comes to multiplayer games there are few choices.
>something to reduce enemy numbers
>what is a tank, healer
>something to increase player's numbers
>what is deeps, buffers/debuffers
a lot would claim buffers/debuffers are different from deeps but they serve the same purpose. the only difference is they do so indirectly, usually.
The trinity exists (and is a vital part of games) because games are designed in such a way as to require it.
In games with the trinity, you will always get hit. It's not possible to evade attacks regardless of how skilled you are. Because of this, it's just logical to assign the toughest person to get hit.
In these games fights can last long times, especially boss fights. Without healing you will die before the enemies do because they're just that much tougher. Because of this, you need a healer.
As for DPS, they're essentially the left over people. They don't need to stand around being hit, and they cannot heal, so they exist simply to make sure enemies die (some may provide utility, but their primary role is bringing more damage).
You cannot remove the trinity from most games without redesigning the core gameplay of the game. It's like removing the foundation from a house. You need that, and without it the house will collapse.
To remove the trinity, you need to make a different game. An example is Destiny. It has no tanks, no healers and anyone can do DPS. Most classes bring their own thing to a group. This works because in Destiny you can avoid attacks, you don't have to get hit.
Another example is Monster Hunter. Every weapon brings it's own thing to a group, but no one has a tank/healer/dps role.
>>336855284
That's one of the biggest issues with ffxiv.
There're two sub issues that feed into it.
>Party Finder
>The two standard party sizes.
Party Finder is decidedly the bigger of the two subissues.
Requiring that pretty much any random assembly of classes can reliably clear all content at around the same rate. Meaning that all the tanks and healers are roughly the same. The DPS have two or three major subtypes.
Which feeds and expands the issue with the party size differences. Most content is 4-man, hard capped. With the occasional 8-main boss-fight and raids.
This means any support feature of a DPS must be balanced around the 8-man potential, while also not causing a detriment to their 4-man viability, because Party Finder, ya know.
Thus, a support must needs be a DPS first, and their support aspects may well simply be a tacked on minor buff.
Hell, one of the three healing classes is actually just another DPS with a pet that heals.
Party Finder also pretty much destroys any social cohesion, especially when it's cross server, as it is with FFXIV.
>>336855765
The control classes in games like City of Heroes were pretty neat, but the game also had like 50 dudes in every room later on.
All you really need are a mage for crowd control and occasional healing and a warrior for damage dealing and threat generation.
>>336855424
That pic is old as hell and exaggerated to hell and back, but it's not completely off the mark.
There's a higher % of decent tanks and healers because the demands of the job itself tend to weed out the shitty ones pretty fast, but doing maximum DPS while dealing with the same mechanics everyone else in the fight has to deal with is more difficult by some small margin. Unfortunately actually good DPS players make up less than 5% of the dumbass faggots that play DPS.
This mostly applies to the more popular modern MMOs, since MP management for healers is nowhere near as big of a deal as it used to be, and generally focuses more on HP bar whack a mole instead of juggling buffs and shit like that, and keeping threat as a Tank is fucking braindead unless the rest of the group heavily outgears you. In older games the competency required to play the roles well was closer to even even, but everything's just trying to be a WoW clone these days.
>>336856039
Meanwhile in Rift
>standard party size: 5 people
>1 tank, 1 heal, 2 dps, 1 support
>every fucking party finder group you join, the support is actually a dps
>>336854751
There is literally nothing wrong with the holy trinity as long as there are sub divisions in the rolls.
Healers shouldn't be just HEALERS, there should be classes based around hots, or who specialize in single healers, or who sacrifice healing ability for mana efficiency and party buffs.
DPS should operate on the same concept as healers. DoTs, debuffers, dedicated controllers, mana batteries, etc.
Ideally the game should be balanced so that everything is useful, while still being unique but I guess mmorpgs are dead.
Only way to remove holy trinity is by allowing player to not get hit for example by allowing the player to dodge or block damage with a shield, my main problem with MMOs is that it doesn't require any skill to play them and that skilled player still needs a group to do anything.
Also I think classes are a bad thing, it would be much better if you could invest points in stats however you like and use any weapon you want as long as you have stats required for it which would allow for variety of builds.
>>336856946
Classes aren't really a bad thing as long as they are unique in their own sense, each getting different advancement paths and their own little gimmicks like EverQuest used to give them
>>336855080
>Thinking Damage is the most complicated
Don't have to pay attention to threat, don't have to pay attention to the rest of your team. Just have to focus on spamming 1 and 2 over an over and over and over and over.
>>336857274
>Don't have to pay attention to threat
Wrong
>>336856946
>allowing the player to dodge or block damage with a shield
I think a bigger problem is the fact that most MMOs don't allow for collision between players, because they have concerns about griefers blocking doorways and server load dealing with complex multi-player collisions.
Multiple times when you go to melee someone in an FPS you can just pass right through them or they 'slide' off the screen impossibly quickly, faster than you can react.
Melee in first person is a complete shit show, which means blocking will be just as bad.
>>336857274
>Don't have to pay attention to threat
This is only correct if the tank isn't shit, which sadly isn't the case for the majority
>>336854751
>2003+13
>MMOs still commonly use stuff like simple trinity
Damn shame really. I actually think a lot of EVE's good core concepts would adapt well to an entirely different setting and gameplay that more people might like, and I wish more MMOs stole liberally from it and from other different MMOs rather then purely from WoW. Even something like ECM, sensor damps and so on could transfer to a non-tech setting, like in a pure fantasy it'd be pretty awesome if stuff like illusion, sensory disruption/nerfing, and so on were core powerful options that you could base a build around.
I don't even hate WoW even though I never got into it, I'm fine with Blizz making a lot of people happy, but I still kind of wish it hadn't cast quite such a long shadow over the next decade of MMO development. MMOs can do such awesome stuff, and I wonder if WoW had been somewhat less successful/dominating and instead we'd seen much more smaller, focused titles experimenting with tons of ambitious stuff rather then one $200 million+ LE WOW KILLAH after another, if we'd have a better MMO environment now.
While it still has the trinity i think The Secret World did many things right. Only thing is that it lied a bit about "be anything the way you want" or something along those lines.
Sure you can try to be a hammer tank, but sword tanks will always be superior (with hammer as 2nd mind you). Tried Hammer/Shotgun build which is fun and dandy for normal/heroic but nightmares are not doable like that.
>>336854751
tank/dps/healer into 2
tank1 - traditional tank using threats and heavy armor
tank2 - shapeshifter or pet class whose pets use threats
dps1 - standard rogue or archer or whatever
dps2 - mage that specifically uses dots and debuffs
healer1 - straight heals with buffs
healer2 - hots with differing buffs
>>336854751
Kinda funny how they completely done away with "CC" as the third leg of the triangle since CC classes were always completely fucking OP.
Such a shame the "monsters are stronger than players" philosophy is completely abandoned in MMO's
>>336857746
>because they have concerns about griefers blocking doorways
They should just let you kill them if that happens. Or work to give enough degrees of freedom that choke points naturally can be bypassed or are a focus of combat anyway. EVE collision mechanics are actually a useful and important part of gameplay, although obviously in full 3D space it's somewhat different since even choke points are harder mess with entirely.
>>336857992
What the fuck are you talking about? Logifag here and I can tell you that you're wrong.
EvE has a holy trinity. It replaces tanks with EWAR. You have the DPS clump up on their anchor and then you have logistics clunk up on their anchor. Logistics will repair the DPS while Ewar prevents the other side from applying logistics.
The only way the trinity is more advanced is when you have brawling vs kiting. Kiting is naturally better than Brawling but Brawling has a lot of tricks up its sleeve to get within brawling range.
T.EvE player since 2008.
>>336858101
So basically the trinity but with a twist (ie. WoW).
>>336855963
Monster Hunter is great because everyone does damage and healing is primarily self reliant. You can get rid of the trinity system by allowing people to do everything, and picking what stats/attacks/skills they want instead of being purely dps, tank, healer.
>>336854751
>let's get rid of the trinity just for the sake of getting rid of it
The only way this works without being complete shit is if the MMO in question is completely skill based, doing away with hotbar RNG tab targetting combat entirely. Otherwise you just get Guild Wars 2.
It would be neat to see an MMO with the combat mechanics of, say, Mount and Blade, and the players got through the content with tactical formations and weapon choices.
>>336855080
>DPS tunnels the boss so hard he makes it to China
>adds kill everyone
every time
>>336858431
Is this a fucking animu characterization of t3 cruisers? Fucking hell man.
Got any more?
>>336855765
>LOL GET RID OF IT
This is exactly how it sounds.
Let me show you Phantasy Star Online 2
>LOL WEEB DRESSUP GAA-
Before you go off on a spergfuck, lets take a look at each class and how combat plays out.
Instead of DPS - TANK - HEAL, we basically have MOBBING - BOSSING.
Hunter: Big sword guy, does a bit of both mobbing and bossing. High health. Hits thing with sword.
Fighter: Little swords guy, or knuckles. Can mob if he tries, mostly just fucks bosses in the face.
Ranger: Shooty rifle man. Does shooty rifle man things. Has a rocket launcher for mobbing too.
Gunner: Literally John Woo gunkata, initial intention was mobbing but is actually way better at bossing.
Force: MAGIC USER, Does literally everything.
Techer: """Priest""", has the best support skills, but those support skills basically consists of "Raise everybody's attack and defense so they can mob and boss harder", also has the strongest normal melee in the game, one of the BEST mobbers in the game.
Braver: Literally samurai. Bow for bossing, katana for mobbing.
Bouncer: Dual swords and Jet Boots. Mostly just mobbing here. "Can cast magic" but nobody does.
>>336855080
Takes some skill tier: DPS
At least they have to look at more than one unit tier: Healer
Tunnels 1 target while never being targeted by 95% of the mechanics tier: Tank
>>336858501
monster hunter isn't an mmo dipshit.
>>336858923
So, single-target DPS and multi-target DPS?
>>336858870
This and one more are all I got.
>>336858923
Aggro? Yeah that kind of exists, its whoever the monster sees first and they rarely change targets.
>OH NO, THE SPACE PRIEST TECHER PISSED OFF A GROUP OF ENEMIES
Fucking good, he can deal with it himself because he's got a fucking weapon and WILL USE IT, even better than most other classes because of a skill that vacuum packs all those little shitters right up the Techer's asshole so he can BONK ALL OF THEM WITH HIS CLUB SIMULTANEOUSLY.
FUCK YEAH SPACE PRIEST!
>HOLY SHIT A HUGE BOSS, WHERE'S THE TANK?
First off
>getting hit
This is a game about DON'T FUCKING GET HIT.
If you're NOT SUPPOSED TO GET FUCKING HIT, then WHO TANKS?
NOBODY.
Everybody watches for when something is going to attack, and they ALL DODGE.
Or they get fucking hit like a retard and has to go chug a potion in the corner or cast a heal on themself.
>WAAA OUR DPS ISN'T DOING ENOUGH DPS
That's YOUR FAULT, NIGGA. You are also the DPS! Everybody is DPS! Fucking get good.
Pick your preferred flavor of DPS and get in there and fight. Don't be that faggot who plays Techer thinking they're gonna sit back and be the heal slut. YOU HAVE A STRONK CLUB, HIT THINGS.
>>336858923
>get rid of the trinity by making everyone a DPS
genius
>>336856946
>Only way to remove holy trinity is by allowing player to not get hit for example by allowing the player to dodge or block damage with a shield
No there's another option, it's make every class self-sufficient, incredibly hard to kill, and do crazy damage. It happened to an MMO I occasionally play, Dungons and Dragons Online. At the game's peak the trinity was at its height (though it also had enchanter/Crowd Control component) but then they dismantled it in one update and the player population has been dwindling since (for reasons beyond 99% of the game becoming easy to solo, but I'm fairly certain that was a part of it).
>>336859056Some of you guys are alright, don't come to Huola tomorrow. I have a curse fit to test.[/Spoiler]
>>336858923
so the answer is to turn everyone into a damage dealer? that's a holy singularity, anon. that's not better.
>>336858431
The fuck are YOU talking about.
>EvE has a holy trinity. It replaces tanks with EWAR.
No, tank is still tank. Pure individual active and passive tanking is a critical thing, most types of EWAR don't necessarily come up at all outside of large fights (which as a pirate and w-hole fag I rarely bothered with). EVE has far more individual potential and options. Logistics itself represents another option and set of tradeoffs. ECM, sensor fuckery, neuts/nos, and all the various counters is an entirely different layer.
>You have the DPS clump up on their anchor and then you have logistics clunk up on their anchor. Logistics will repair the DPS while Ewar prevents the other side from applying logistics.
lol? Try playing some more of the game, because you're genuinely missing out on a lot of the most fun stuff if that's all you do.
>T.EvE player since 2008.
EVE player since 2005. If you are purely a large fleet nullsec shitter (or worse, militia) then fuck right off. Also
>EvE
>>336859021
>What is MH: Frontier
I was agreeing with that anon, that the mechanics in Monster Hunter are great.
>>336859175
sounds like guildwars 2. make of that what you will.
>>336856946
MMO's don't require zero skill to play well, it's just that the skill ceiling is pretty low. Which works because usually the difficult content is more about having to coordinate a ton of players to do their job more than relying on individual skill. That and a true action MMO will probably never be a thing any time soon due to server limitations/shitty internet. Plus the game being accessible means more people will play it, and pretty much the only major advantage an MMO has over other games is that there's (supposed to be) a shitton of people around at once.
I just wish MMOs could go back to having a support role in groups in addition on Tank/DPS/Heals.
>>336859056
>No cutty THICK moros girl
Fucking amarrian shitters.
>>336858870
>>336859056
>>336858431eve rarely comes up on /v/ after that long ago brief spell it was a thing, but sometimes these threads tempt me to re-sub one more time.
>>336859297
Unless you're doing small gang work then you need to have anchors, dumbass.
>>336857746
Age of Conan has full collision. They fixed potential griefers by simply giving everyone a sneak ability which lets you pass through players.
You're not actually invisible and take 500% increased damage while in that stance.
Works like a charm.
>>336854751
>When will this meme truly die?
Maybe when you have some way of assisting the situation instead of being a nuisance, Fry.
>>336859271
explain further
>>336856946
>>336859023
>>336859023
>>336859208
>>336859271
>Only way to remove holy trinity is by allowing player to not get hit for example by allowing the player to dodge or block damage
>get rid of the trinity by making everyone a DPS
>that's a holy singularity
YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT, AND IT MAKES FOR A WONDERFUL GAME WITHOUT PEOPLE BEING PIGEONHOLED INTO "ROLES"
FAIRLY EASY BOSS WITH PUBS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faNAbxxuDDA
FUCKTON OF JOHN WOOS GOING NUTS ON A BIG ONE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxfOuB-ShOU
HE TURNS INTO A BIG BABY BITCH SO EVERYBODY GETS IN A MECH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVbzOYF2xe4
kings and heroes
>>336858870
Artist should have done state issue.
>>336859559
>not doing small gang work
For what purpose. Shit, even in nullsec some of the most fun I had were 6 or 7 of us with one logi guy and everyone else in AFs just seeing how far we could go and how much we could kill.
>>336859817
ALSO JESUS CHRIST I SHOULD HAVE WATCHED THAT THIRD VIDEO OF THE MECHS BEFORE LINKING IT, THAT GUY PLAYING IS FUCKING AWFUL.
>>336854751
Some GW2 faggot is here again. Your "formula" failed, get over with it. A MMO without healers and tanks is shit.
>>336860219
>being this much of a shitter
>>336859732
explain what? how turning everyone into the exact same thing is worse than having people of differing roles? not to mention these action "mmos" are built around having small groups (usually the magic 4), so scaling it up to a MASSIVE scale often doesn't work thanks to lag.
this is one of the main reasons tab targetting and hot bars exist. you could add a shitload of people and it wouldn't negatively affect their ability to take or deal damage.
>>336854751
there is nothing inherently bad about the holy trinity, but streamlining content is what caused the stagnation.
We need Secondary tanks, Off-tanks, CCs, DDs, Supports, Magic tanks and all the other extinct roles back.
Just make a a system where you don't have to do a shitload of work to do one thing for one boss and we're golden.
>>336854751
As soon as someone comes up with something that's not garbage to replace it. IE never.
>>336860391
>We need Secondary tanks, Off-tanks, CCs, DDs, Supports, Magic tanks and all the other extinct roles back.
Nobody would use them because "they're not as good as the real deal full tank full healer full DPS" and will get kicked from groups just for being a class.
>>336860507
The problem in current MMOs is that the dps, tanks and healers provide themselves many buffs.
>>336858501
monster hunter is a solo game, multiplayer is a nice bonus, or a crutch for noobs who can't master the art of hunting
>>336860507
That's a problem with the goddamn content of modern MMOs.
Imagine if your tank just straight up died if he didn't tap out every now an then. Imagine if your healer and all the damage dealers died if there wasn't off-tanks dealing with all that shit. Or supports keeping healers in business.
The problem isn't the trinity, the problem is it got to a point where MMOs got streamlined into trinities.
>>336860507
Not that guy, but that's the streamlining he was talking about. It's not about "not wanting them", it's about needing them.
>>336855765
>>336860941
hmm....
go on...
>>336854751
I liked FFXIII's paradigms, I think they could work out as archetypes for an mmo.
There's nothing wrong with trinity-style MMOs it's just that most games do it in a shit way.
Either it's too heavy handed (healers can do literally nothing but heal, tanks need 6000000% aggro to not have DPS pull from them, DPS die from a fart) or it's too simple (no crowd control, no buffing, no debuffing, no hybrids, tanks can take all damage instead of physical but not magical, etc.)
It's bad for an MMO to have "synchronous soloing" as I call it, where you play through content that *just so happens* to have other players in it, but you're not really paying attention to what they're doing or even slowing down when they go AFK for five minutes. At that point you might as well play a good single-player RPG, and if you want to chat there's places all over the Internet to do that.
But it's also bad for an MMO to have one strategy that must be used in all content (tank grabs aggro while being supported by healer while DPS kills things).
>>336860941
I would love to have a video game where a system like this is in place. Red White is objectively the coolest combo.
>>336854751
MMOs didnt make the trinity.
Players did.
Because it works the best.
In order to not have the trinity, you need to remove or replace concepts such as "Taking damage, doing damage, and recovering lost HP."
Those are so basic in the design, and so minimal, its practically impossible to remove, as players will always try to maximize the damage they do, and minimize the damage they take. (The obvious example is MMO creators removing healing as an option)
In short, you dont want LESS you want MORE, and the cost of adding more, is longer queues/wait time to fill every unique role you want to see.
(If content can be beaten w/o min/maxing, then the content is going to be easy after a few tries, and you'll get bored.)
>>336861095
What is this from?
>>336861641
You're wrong.
>>336861689
Persona 5's new trailer
>>336860941
yes
>>336860761
It's a solo-able game. MH1 was definitely focused around group hunting and online play.
>Fatalis was the last monster you could hunt online and it wasn't available in offline mode.
>New event quests were dished out on every weekend for exclusive monster parts and rewards.
>You could only get food buffs in the online Guildhall/town.
>Monster HP pools were larger in Online hunts versus Offline hunts.
>Keyboard support for typing in chat before and during hunts.
>Bowguns were the only weapons in the game that could heal
Most of these things were either scraped or reimplemented in later versions of the series.
>>336855765
how do other class based games get away with not having tanks and healers? there's tons of ways you can differentiate classes with strengths and weaknesses. fast/slow, long/short range, single/multiple target damage, etc.
>>336854751
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
>>336861909
Thanks.
>>336858431
>EvE has a holy trinity
You're a dumbfuck. Even in nullsec fleet battles there's no trinity, in fact the core issue is that it's fundamentally impossible for an MMO to have a simple trinity if there's no concept of aggro grabbing. The closest it gets in eve is the simpler normal space PvE fights where enemies tend to just target the first thing they see and then stay on it, but in w-space even that doesn't work. The way weapon damage scales based on sig size/speed/weapon size/etc also fucks it up.
Eve has tons of flaws but trinity it ain't, at all. "Tanking" can't be basic a role itself when anyone could be primary'd whenever and FCs will respond dynamically. "DPS" still has to consider how it's not going to die, even if that's only surviving long enough to have logi support.
>>336855005
Yeah i got one, how about not forcing a metagame on your game and let everyone have utility
>>336861641
>In order to not have the trinity, you need to remove or replace concepts such as "Taking damage, doing damage, and recovering lost HP."
No, jesus fuck. You only think this way because that's all you've ever been exposed to. That's not the only way to do things. Trinity grows out of an MMO's design, NOT simply player choices.
>>336859817
>PSO2
>easy to out stat every boss
>still pumping heales via items or resta
>spam dodge for iframes
borrrring. It looks impressive but that's all it does. Look impressive.
>>336862229
What's the point of multiple classes or teamwork if everyone can do everything?
>>336862378
Nah that's how it does work. You need the ability to die, HP. You need something to threated you, taking damage. You need a balancer between the two so it's not who does dps faster, healing.
The trinity exists because it works and works well. If there isn't something threatening then you don't need to heal. Making it too threatening means you either zerg rush rez or you make a tank to focus the damage taken while the dps kills.
You can talk all you want but untill you provide a better solution to the trinity it stays. And far smarter people have tired only to fail.
I liked the way Spiral Knights divvied things up, where everyone's roles and abilities were determined by choice of weapons and equipment instead of classes. Your shield broke easily and healing options were limited to checkpoints and potions dropped from mobs, so there were no tanks or healers and you were basically expected not to get hit.
Since everyone was a damage dealer, the differences were in how mobs were managed. Bombs did crowd control and were the best source of debuffs, guns kited and kept their distance, and swords were up-and-personal and kept other melee shit away from the aforementioned weapons.
>>336862878
Because there's still room to specialize a bit depending on the fight and group, and ways to limit what can actually be active in a build at any given time so even if everyone can do everything everyone still needs to choose and make tradeoffs. There can be many ways to fight solo or small gang successfully with varying tradeoffs in terms of full strength combat power vs flexibility/redundancy, ie., what happens when some of your group starts to get picked off or you face another group that has counters to your strat.
yeah I know it's popular to bash the Trinity, but the only demonstrated alternative is letting every player be simultaneously a tank, healer, dps and CC. we've seen how that turns out and it sucks. sorry.
>>336862991
like plenty of other people have said all you have to do is limit healing so the main way of not dying is not getting hit.
>>336862991
Eve online doesn't have the trinity and it works really well, to give an example of something from the old days that's still active. There used to be lots more pre-WOW. You just haven't played enough games, the things you think are fundamental laws spawning from mechanics are in fact arbitrary choices by game devs that can and have been done differently.
>>336863292
so you don't have tanks or healers, everyone is dodging DPS. how is that better? seems really boring. you don't want every class to be the same.
>>336863010
The same thing happens in Terraria.
>remove healer
>now everyone heals themselves
>some people heal better than others
>one guy can heal better than everyone else and gets nerfed into the ground
>one tank has better dps and gets nerfed into the ground
>>336863179
>what happens when some of your group starts to get picked off or you face another group that has counters to your strat.
You wipe. If you were getting picked off with 6 people, you're going to get picked off faster with 5 people, at least one of which is now leaving the role he does well in order to multitask at something he does not do well.
>>336863516
99 percent of all games boil down to killing the enemy before he kills you. Everything else is just fluff to complicate that and make it seem deeper.
Tanks take the damage away from the DPS so he can kill without getting killed. Healers make sure the tanks survive so he can continue taking damage from the DPS so he can kill without getting killed. Making everyone a dodging DPS can turn the game into something skill based instead of a spreadsheet with fancy graphics like most MMOs get to be at higher levels.
>>336863670
It would be more like Wildstar's system.
Y'know. That dead piece of shit MMO.
>>336858101
Honestly I think ragging on the holy trinity is a bit short sighted. You COULD innovate here and make some new overall set of roles, or remove roles.
Or you could innovate on how the roles themselves play.
Look at WoW. It has 5 different kinds of tanks that all have different play styles, different ways of building threat and mitigating damage or otherwise increasing the amount of punishment they can sustain.
Most DPS have 3 different specializations on how they do damage. Everything from DoTs as a focus, to straight nuking, and plenty of weird variations in between like resource building to power massive nukes and AoE damage.
Their healers also run the gamut, from healers that primarily prevent damage with shields, healers that mostly use HoTs, healers that channel heals and healers that cast powerful AoE healing.
They may all fall into the same 3 roles, but how they accomplish their roles is quite varied and there's usually something for everyone.
If you're going to remove one of the roles, you had better also invest in making the classes in the remaining roles interesting and distinct from one another while still being fun to play.
>>336863965
>You wipe.
No you don't you fucking cancer. This is exactly the kind of false thinking we've been talking about, you think that's how a game HAS to work and it isn't. Losing a few people should be EXPECTED and planned for in a game with real fights, particularly since you often won't know what the other side (or sides) will bring to the table.
>If you were getting picked off with 6 people, you're going to get picked off faster with 5 people
Not if you already picked off more of them or if you're built right.
>at least one of which is now leaving the role he does well in order to multitask at something he does not do well.
The fuck are you even talking about now. The whole point is that you can go more generic to everyone or have fall back strategies.
>>336864204
>99 percent of all games boil down to killing the enemy before he kills you. Everything else is just fluff to complicate that and make it seem deeper.
"Chess is just beating someone before they beat you"
"Brain surgery is just putting a tool in a spot"
no
>>336864204
so you want a game where no one relies on each other and there's no co-operation. just everyone playing their own singleplayer games. have you tried modern wow, you might like it?
>>336854751
For me GW2 executed the trinity.
I can no longer stand PvP in games which require boring, static classes and mechanics.
>inb4 bandwagon faggots memeposting about "insert next big mmo here" being superiour.
>>336864476
>not acknowledging far superior GW1
Guild Wars 2 got rid of the holy trinity by making everyone DPS and it was a stupid fucking idea.
Now, maybe they fixed some stuff. I only played this piece of shit for 2 months after launch, but I seriously doubt they fixed anything.
Dungeons were solved by everyone slamming into one enemy at a time and hoping they could kill it or by running past them entirely or by abusing glitches (The boss of Twilight Arbor had less range with his attacks than you had with ranged weaponry so you could just stand outside the boss room and shoot him to death)
WvW was a fucking joke because all it ever came down to was whichever server had the bigger group. The only time artillery weapons came in handy was when you were bombarding the enemy team's Stargate for easy kills, not that you could even collect your fucking reward.
Holy shit, GW2 was such a piece of shit compared to 1.
>>336864401
Idiots like you are how the 'trinity' got to be taken as gospel. You can't have teamwork unless everyone falls into pre-determined labels and roles? Since when?
Take something like Starcraft, for example. In a 2v2 game, the two players on each team are technically the same role, and if they play the same race, they have the same units and tools available. But they can have wildly different strategies and they can work together without making it just two games of 1v1. You don't have to have your hand held through the whole process, you know.
>>336854751
What is bad here. Not everygane is going to be pure tactics. If you want a tactics or strategy game go play an rts or turn based rpg.
>>336860219
The thing about having healers and tanks is that it fosters a sense of reliance on others when you play the game. Everyone needs the other roles in order to accomplish their role in group play to some extent.
As long as their isn't some automated group finder in place, it can be the basis for community on a server.
>>336865150
But there is also no need to rely on each other so why play 2v2 not 1v1v1v1
DDO's class system with multiclassing and the skill trees was the best modern system known to mankind. If they had toned down monster difficulty and dependence on potions so you didn't run out of spell points halfway through a level 9 dungeon it would have been a pretty perfect game.
kill all trinityfags but keep their remains around as a reminder of what happens when you force players into such narrow archetypes
>>336865339
>everybody should be able to do everything
Skyrim fags need to die.
>>336855765
Remove hard healing, only allow use of heal items.
Remove threat/tanking, bosses can target anyone randomly.
Give boss/mobs obvious tells when they are about to hit rather than an instantaneous strike just by looking at you.
Wow, I did it.
>>336865150
that's good in theory, but in practice having well defined roles and disjoint ability sets makes the co-op and teamwork so much better. It's just muddy otherwise and often results in no co-dependence at all.
>>336865328
Because a team of 2 people working together beats two people pretending to solo every single time.
>>336865425
Want to know how I know you never played it, fagboy?
>>336865507
Only if it's a badly designed game.
>>336864649
GW2 is the most shining example of why breaking the holy trinity sounds good on paper and fucking sucks in reality. Without a tank you now have everyone havin to mitigate damage by either moving out of the colored floor sections or everyones dodging the whole time. And that gets real messy when you put it into action with 100k people on 1 server.
Vindictus is a prime exacple of how important server latency is to action mmo styles.
>>336859375
Guild Wars 2 and PSO2 both attempted to execute a formula that is a mainstay for action games. PSO2 did it much better, but both still aren't that good.
TERA, BnS, Dragon Nest, Dungeon Striker etc execute it a lot better but are ruined by the Korean f2p grind.
>>336860507
>Imagine if your tank just straight up died if he didn't tap out every now an then
What is tank swap mechanics?
Off tanking is still a thing. You just have another tank in the group to deal with it. Not some class that is designated 'off tank'
The real issue is too much self reliance cutting out the need for support roles.
Take WoW for example. All healers stack spirit so there is minimal need for mana management. They generally have their own form of mana recovery or mana saving l like Holy Paladins getting mana refunds for healing their beacon or Mistwalkers drinking tea to recover mana.
There is no opportunity for something like a Bard to step in and sing some mana recovery ballad because they don't need it.
There are no elemental resistances in the game. So there is no need for an Elementalist to cast a elemental attack buff on the party or an elemental resist spell.
>>336864209
Wildstar has a trinity. It was a traditional MMORPG except every move is insta-cast point blank AOE with funny shaped hitboxes.
>>336865506
So, Monster Hunter?
>>336865506
So, Vindictus?
why is there such a focus on fighting boss monsters in the first place
>>336865506
Dark souls with phantoms?
>>336865917
yeah p much
>>336865917
I'll give you the real reason why MMOs don't have Monster Hunter-like mechanics.
Cost.
You need to animate all boss attacks properly with a system like this, and player attacks also.
You then need to script boss AI that isn't just a laundry list of things and conditions that the boss executes.
You then need to QA this by actually playing the game since the animation-based combat means it's very difficult to automatically test using programs.
Finally you need a team who actually plays and understands games like this. It's not that mainstream compared to WoW.
And even then, it's possible to come up with something completely mediocre. Look at Kingdoms of Amalur.
>>336866013
Probably because we've been trained to believe that all the good stuff that means anything is locked behind a boss kill.
Everything in between is just trash you slog through to get to the bosses.
>>336866013
since when has anyone had fun fighting enemies that aren't bosses?
>>336866238
Which is why we don't have a Monster Hunter MMO... oh wait.we do
>>336866384
Tencent is behind it and its ass.
It's monster hunter in name alone.
>>336866384
Guess what, it's developed in China and feels only superficially like mainline. I've played it.
>>336866363
Maplestory comes to mind, and MMOs in that vein. 99% of the game was non-boss monster killing.
>>336866242
>>336866363
Why can't the trash drop useful/valuable shit/be fun to fight?
Why is there a need to slog through it to get to the boss and have some modicum of fun?
>>336866384
And it's shit, and also barely an MMO since you just grab a party of people in a hub and go on an instanced hunt anyways.
>>336866238
Yeah you cant just do whatever the fuck you want. You have to time out a monsters attacks to see what each class can do it save itself.
Like the frame data of a evasive roll has to correlate with attack speed, attack direction, attack range, and attack telegraphing
>>336866691
Yeah, making action games is difficult. It's why there aren't many studios that do it well.
>>336854751
Never
All DPS is the only true solution, but gaming developers want to sell their games to people who are bad at games and have to put in tanks/healers.
>>336855765
Holy fucking shit people, it's not hard. You just make combat collision based. And I don't mean with many """" like GW2. Phantasy Star does it, Monster Hunter does it, Dark Souls does it. It literally already exists, they just refuse to implement it in a proper MMO. Or they don't have the technology.
>>336866082
Nah Dark Souls gameplay is ass, let's go with Nioh instead.
>>336866540
>>336866459
So, moving the goal posts much?
What was described is an action combat MMO. While the retard said "bosses play animations when attacking" every fucking MMO has the boss play an animation before attacking. So I'm assuming he was trying to express something different from tab targeting based combat in MMOs.
There are plenty of games where the combat isn't decided by who is targeted, the distance from the target and a dice roll.
Games such as Vindictus, TERA, Maplestory 2, and a shit ton of other korean, chinese and japanese MMOs.
>>336867045
>Phantasy Star
>Monster Hunter
>Dark Souls
There you have it. Western studios can't make action combat MMOs. It's as simple as that.
>>336867190
You underestimate the cost that goes into making one of these things. Sure there are Asian studios making them, but the West never will.
![20150425035456a0e2vhki39ok8f3v[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/WZrkoAl.png "20150425035456a0e2vhki39ok8f3v[1].png")
>>336860941
>>336867309
If cost were such a factor then action MMOs wouldn't be a dime a dozen.
Western Devs are just too afraid to leave the WoW comfort zone. When they do they flail around like a retarded inbred child and fail miserably a la Guild Wars 2 or Wildstar.
>>336854751
GW2 tried no trinity, and the result is the dungeons and fractals are fucking awful. It's not like you're playing in a group it's like you're soloing next to 4 other people, no group coordination or interplay at all.
It's actually better to have MORE than 3 roles rather than just 3, and MUCH better than having no roles but just everyone self heal and avoid damage on their own while going full glass cannon dps.
GW1 had heals, tank, spirits/pets/minions (for clumping things up easily with disposable cannon fodder), interruptors, hexers, protectors/support (like protection monks and imbagons), and damage. Not just damage, tank, heal.
The way to fix the problem of having to spend hours looking for a healer or tank is to enable any class to fill any role through specialization.
That's what TESO has been trying, though I don't know how well their dungeons do, but I do know that any class can pick up a resto staff or 1h/shield and fill any role.
>>336867474
There really aren't that many. The good asian action MMOs are all from large studios. Dragon Nest being the one notable exception and now they are owned by Shanda.
>>336865626
Want to know how little everybody gives a shit about your opinion?
>>336867474
MMOs are a dime a dozen because the WoW formula costs nothing to copy. If you try and change that, then it suddenly becomes very expensive.
Please tell me you understand that different things cost different amounts of money to put in a game.
>>336867423
>that thief
>>336854751
What do you propose the solution is then? I was thinking about this recently but what exactly would be the alternative?
>>336867619
This is the best you could come up with in half an hour.
Please seriously reconsider any future attempts at banter.
>>336867608
"there really aren't that many"
Korea alone shits out 2 or 3 action MMOs every year or so. In terms of the MMO market, yes, there are a lot of them.
TERA, Vindictus, Maple Story 2, Phantasy Star Online, these games ARE coming from large established companies. What point are you trying to make beyond how little you know about existing action MMOs?
>>336867652
Then explain why action style MMOs are whats primarily being made by the east.
>>336855086
>worked fine
GW2 dungeons are shit though.
>5 glass cannon dps
>>336854751
Blade & Soul already killed that meme desu, all classes are good on their own and even mages can be tanky if they want to.
>>336858068
This is literally what happens anytime you have an open ended or classless system. Things get min maxed and theres a few builds that are viable and everything else is worthless and groups wont take you if your not said spec/build or whatever.
>>336868163
>>336868242
Look, here's a playlist with about 13 action mmos from presumably just Korea since this is Steparu's channel.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdzMLfeLXi0pyjHsXfX5qso7mVO7-Okvi
The trinity revolves around archaic AI and threat mechanics in MMOs
in reality its because MMOs are focused entirely around a static end game of grinding bosses for loot
You can also thank WOW for setting this standard in the MMO industry by removing "unfun" roles and just making everyone the same 4 classes
The only way to really fix it is to scrap all the bad designs MMOs have had to use since the 90s due to server lag and actually build the game from the ground up with modern inspired gameplay, some games have tried to do this, but still fell back into the MMO trinity skill spam as a baseline of class design.
>>336862229
That's literally what killed mmos. Pandering to everyone means everyone loses interest eventually.
>>336854751
You remove the holy trinity by removing healing. That's it. Without healing, the trinity cannot function, because tanks cannot withstand infinite damage any more.
Alternatively, just program a less predictable threat system. The holy trinity is pandered to, it's catered to, by shitty, abusable threat systems. When your AI reacts realistically to how it's being attacked, starts killing the healers and DPS regardless of the tank's efforts, then players have to come up with strategies other than "get one guy to take all the damage, heal him".
I miss playing BRD in FF11.
>>336867193
can confirm, worked for a western studio that tried action combat and the culture just fundamentally misunderstands it
>>336854751
It will never die. To remove a tank and not trivialize content you need to add avoidance mechanics that DPS wont be able to handle.
To remove healers you will need to introduce support mechanics that require two players to work together instead of do their own thing at the same time.
>>336868729
>sarcasm
Players fulfill roles in MMOs, its the big part of roleplaying.
The problem is roles in MMOs have been watered down to fulfill the utterly mindless grinding gameplay that defines the modern MMO.
In reality if you want to get rid of the MMO trinity, you have to go back to the RPG roots and just let players build characters how they want without forced metagame bullshit.
The problem is people will eventually settle into their own form of metagame, where one set of abilities are deemed worthless and others are must have, which sucks.
But thats because MMOs have static world design, in order to get rid of heavy metagaming you'd just have to create a dynamic world where every skill is needed.
Has any MMO done good PvE without the Holy Trinity?
GW2 removed it and holy moly did it suffer for it. Every class became the same, just deal damage and look after yourself while other people around you happen to do the same thing.
>>336864209
Wildstar was trinity as fuck but the Tanks also did more damage than most dps. The warrior did anyway. OP as hell.
>>336869175
I feel like the stagnation of network investment in the first world, particularly in America most of all, is an under appreciated issue too for MMO development. In Japan or Korea developers can count on most of their audience having at least 100 Mbps symmetrical connections or flat out gigabit. In America the FCC had to fight like mad merely to raise the definition of "broadband" up from 5/1, telcos hated even that much. It wasn't even any sort of law or competition, just about advertising and even that got the shitters out bitching about EBIL GUBMINT as if basic infrastructure isn't critical to the entire economy. America could have easily had fiber covering 90% of the country a decade ago, and if so net life would be different. Instead compromises must be made to work around our garbage infrastructure.
>>336869557
>farming (both plants and animals), crafting beyond taking dildo of the dark lord and 50,000 peanuts from trash drops, and foraging/cooking cooking food actually useful again
I sure love things that will never happen;_;
Meh, if MMO combat was more like this game then there wouldn't be a trinity, people would just play using the weapons and attacks they like more.
Really, thats the problem with MMOs, they're too much about efficiency rather then playing a character you like, I mean when was the last time I could just be a wizard fucking off learning spells and selling magic shit to my bros?
>>336862378
Incorrect, I think this way because I played MMOs that didnt have roles, and in the case of FFXI, they actually tried to prevent having a single tank. (They wanted DPS to swap the mob around, rather than it staying on a single player)
But players always want to min/max, and made 1 player max out threat and defense, and the rest focus on DPS/healing.
(Heals didnt generate threat in FFXI, so it never went to the healer, it always stayed on the DPS, and the only combo that came close to generating enough threat to tank fully, was WAR/MNK or MNK/WAR, but even then, it didnt generate the same threat back then as it does when tanking really took a foothold.
Eventually everyone brought 6 WHMs to everything, due to magical WSs and banish damage being so good, while everyone had heals. So SE nerfed heals to generate butt loads of threat, and magical WSs were nerfed in dmg, while banish was nerfed. Now ppl NEEDED to keep the mob off the healer, and they needed other classes to keep damage going. aka, players resorted to SE bumble, with making PLD tanks. And shortly after turned NIN into a full on tank, requiring SE to nerf NIN since it was too good at it, taking its shadows done a butt load.)
(I started in Ultima Online, roles werent a thing in the base game, just among the community trying to min/max)
>>336869305
You go with monster hunter targeting.
EVERYONE has equal threats at all time, unless you use an item to give threat for a split second.
Nobody has more healing available than everyone else, unless you're a fucking chode who can't play for himself.
>>336869991
so no need to rely on other players for anything? sounds pretty bad
>>336865150
They are winning through numbers.
Not teamwork, where they cant accomplish tasks w/o the other.
Just having someone else with the workload means nothing.
At best, this will continue the trend of making every boss fight a time limit till enrage, just to make sure u bring more ppl, otherwise u can just solo everything.
You have "teamwork" thats meaningful, and not just a mini zerg, if each teamate brings something the other NEEDs, and can not EVER do solo. Example, take hits, or heal.
This doesnt mean we need to be limited to those, but it does show the issue.
Most people dont want an over complicated game with 6 different resource bars, and 10 different HP bars, needing 16 different classes to deal with each of them, and having to wait 12 hours for the last PT member who can heal the 5th HP bar.
The system is the way it is, because its the simplest system, that can go deep, w/o being TOO deep.
>>336870131
MMOs that are challenging and easier to do in groups will always cause players to group up, even leveling in vanilla WOW, which didn't need the trinity at all, was much much better to do in a group
>>336865506
So a single player game, where u can solo, but u bring a friend because u suck?
Breaking away from the holy trinity is tricky. Often it'll either make encounters complete clusterfucks as players run around frantically to avoid damage and kite enemies or players will do their best to recreate the trinity in some way to brute force through mechanics.
I remember in the few months that I played Guild Wars 2 a popular method for clearing dungeons was just everyone running Guardian and stacking their heal ally/damage enemy ground effects.
>>336869305
>Alternatively, just program a less predictable threat system. The holy trinity is pandered to, it's catered to, by shitty, abusable threat systems.
Yeah, this is one of the core issues and also differences vs good single player games. EVE Online most is shit when it comes to PvE, but the one time they did something to add some challenge (the "Sleeper" enemies in wormhole systems) this was a core part of it. They made this enemy roundly tough and high damage, gave it some ability to catch and hold player ships, and then gave it a basic priority list so that the mobs would switch up targets based on player actions. They were also vulnerable to ewar themselves. That combined with the possibility of hostile player attacks (and that the hostile players could themselves then find themselves getting fucked by the mobs if they weren't careful), high rewards, etc made it somewhat more interesting for a bit even though pve in EVE was still mediocre and wasted potential overall.
An MMO with better mechanics and more thought put into non-player enemies could take that a lot farther, and that by itself would be the end of the simple trinity. There might still be players who leaned more heavily towards buffs/debuffs, or did more damage, but everyone would have to think about how to stay alive at least for a while, everyone would have to watch out for being too obvious and tempting a target, and strategize accordingly. Ideally the game would also add in some factors to account for movement speed and target size vs damage and shit like that too so that players would have a very flexible sandbox to defeat different enemies. Some sort of unpredictability in encounters would help too, like a chance for reinforcements to show up, or the risk of PvP.
>>336870298
sure, but then all other people are doing is making the game easier. is that all you want out of multiplayer? a glorified difficulty slider?
it's much better when people have roles and unique abilities. it makes you work better together because you have some idea what they can/should do
All this talk of a pure DPS game just sounds boring, but then again, I always hated being a DPS in MMOs, I'm obsessed with tanking, and slightly enjoy healing.
I would love an MMO without DPS though. Give us a support in its place, and let all members have moments of DPS burst within a teamwork system.
the holy trinity is basically the optimal way to play an MMO though unless you're like runescape
>>336856039
>WoW with pretty graphics and 'don't step in big orange shapes' gameplay is even more dumbed down and shitty than WoW
Never understood the meme idea that ff14 is good, or that any asian mmo has ever been decent.
>>336858923
>bows for bossing
>using bows in pso2
>>336870628
It is nice when people have unique abilities.
The problem is there is nothing unique about abilities that revolve around fulfilling generic roles.
WOW for example is a SHIT example of having different unique abilities, because in the end they're all the same.
Players should feel unique by being able to tailor their own play styles and builds and the world should be able to foster that character building, the problem is most MMOs are extremely static and force metagaming rather then fostering character diversity.
>>336854751
plebs
>>336870131
In a poorly designed game, sure.
Its a problem with MMO combat.
And sadly all MMOs revolve around end game combat grinding these days.
It doesn't matter f you're a fighter, a wizard, a cleric, or even the rare builder class, you're usually stuck doing the same thing (even the builder classes just sit and build turrets or something retarded)
>>336869694
Your post is interesting but I don't think modern MMO's are limited by netcode's bandwidth
I can't check right now but I'm fairly certain it's in the range of 1-10KB/s for most games. And even then, assuming you'd have 100x time that number, what do you think they would do with it ?
More tick/s is an obvious one but even then it would barely double/triple the current bw usage, syncing game physics with remote clients would be possible and network intensive and would allow for some new gameplay mechanics I suppose. Showing more people in the game world would be possible as well but I think the game client would start getting bottleneck from the cpu from showing too many player models.
Food for thought I guess
There's nothing wrong with the trinity, if anything they should expand on it, maybe DPS/CC/tank/Heal/Support
>>336870891
Eh, eve has come up plenty in this thread. Although posting a capital does underline another way to help break up the trinity: have more differences in what is effective vs what then simply damage or elements. A capital by itself, or even a couple, is just an expensive pinata of rapebait that will rapidly be swarmed on discovery away from safety (and in fact people will actively try to draw it out of safety). It does high raw DPS but only against big, very slow targets and will do jack shit vs even a fast moving battleship let alone anything smaller, and while it has plenty of tank it'll still get locked down and go down in a hurry. So it has to be escorted which already changes the dynamics of fleets and decisions.
I could see this getting adapted to other MMOs to at least mix up the trinity, such as by having classes that put out great DPS against a big boss but are basically worthless vs support spawns or mobs that have to be cleared on the way.
>>336855765
Just make a dark souls mmo
Why do people act like there is only one gameplay style to an mmo
Like every mmo is.just trying to be a WoW clone? Why can't they change the gameplay?
>>336871383
>It does high raw DPS but only against big, very slow targets and will do jack shit vs even a fast moving battleship let alone anything smaller,
kek no
try webs or high angled guns
>>336870294
What the other person described sounds more like real teamwork. In a typical MMO you only need specific classes because the game's mechanics limit you as a way to force you to need them. It feels really artificial. I would rather have a game that has real strategy and teamwork to over come a challenge rather than simply requiring you to use a specific set of ability to keep your teammates alive just because the game says you have to.
>>336869867
For the longest time FFXI did follow that sort of mindset, there was generally always 2 tanks. Especially so back in the days of blink tanking since all it took was 1 moment of lag to drop a tank back then. And nin was never truly nerfed, beyond the overly obvious nerf that aoes only took 1 shadow which was needed. Hell NIN and /NIN was a thing until the very end until they decided RDM tanks were suddenly a bad thing which made nin/drk shit by extension.
There will always be a need for a tank which in turn makes there be a requirement for a healer.
If everyone could tank / damage resist to the same degree at all times, then you need to have either everything be AoEs (which may not make sense in some situations) or a wacky aggro distribution (which can just be annoying more than anything else) to make sure everyone in the party is taking damage. If one person was taking all the damage in this situation (from for example single target attacks from bosses) then the combination of other players being tanky and their healing defaults them to dps and unkillable unless there are crazy AoEs that do large amounts of damage which would then put strain on the default "tank" in this scenario also the "tank" would end up doing the most work anyway. Or maybe everyone has targetable healing which would mean there'd be dps/healers and a tank but then people would just end up relegating people to solely deal with healing, dpsing and tank anyway.
In my opinion you can't simplify or get rid of the holy trinity it's an okay way to create strategies for bosses and party alike rather than having these crazy fights with damage flying out everywhere. Making everyone be able to do everything just creates an uncoordinated mess where you would still get tanky like and dps like people anyway.
Even adding to the holy trinity is problematic since then it's just starting to spread the playerbase out too much.
>>336871817
I searched through the patch notes over the months before it released in the US.
When the expansion was released in japan, (before we got the basegame that had it)
NIN had something like 5 or 6 shadows with Ni, and had 4 shadows with Ichi. (I think the recast timer was shorter too.)
The two tank system was developed by the NA players unable to keep WAR tanks alive (since they hadnt all unlocked PLD yet) and the JP players started tank swapping with /NIN before we even started thinking about that mechanic.
>>336871256
A lot of the reason MMOs use so little though is because they have to, not because that's the only way. At the last place I worked we played around with some simple tech demo experiments on our 10G LAN, and it at least looked possible to do some really interesting stuff particularly with physics. But to be commercially viable it has to cover a pretty massive portion of the population. Same is true in fact of a lot of the trends on the net, much of the "cloud services" and the like basically boil down to average people not having the bandwidth to run services on their own. Universal (or close enough) /symmetrical/ gigabit and IPv6 would enable a lot of cool stuff and most fundamentally allow the net to return to a much more decentralized form as it was originally designed.
>Showing more people in the game world would be possible as well but I think the game client would start getting bottleneck from the cpu from showing too many player models.
Obviously there are graphics tradeoffs but fundamentally you can show a LOT of models on even a basic PC. Consider games from Sam to SupCom, it's not a priority for most devs these days but hundreds to thousands and thousands of models moving around on screen at once is entirely doable from a technical perspective. Though there's no point in focusing on it in most games obviously.
>>336871639
They are the same thing in the end.
You press buttons based on what u should be doing.
The only difference, is that your example allows you to swap roles, based on your opinion in the given moment of a fight, rather than what most MMOs allow.
But iff you can have access to every ability, you can solo the content.
(Seen this done in plenty of MMOs with jack of all trade classes, that were given the ability to do any role, and gear up to specialize in any role, and end up soloing endgame bosses that takes 2 tanks, 2+ healers, and 10+ DPS)
Which requires the devs to respond with time limits, to give it artificial difficulty (which they currently have to do, to stop players from hording out tank/healer only builds, as they have done in the early days of MMOs, as there was no need for DPS, other than just convenience of killing faster)
Teamwork requires a player brings something the other can not do.
Not just simply out numbering the situation, or matching it. (In the case of 2v2)
>>336872040
Yeah, but the biggest thing shadows were good for back then was that any aoe, magical or no, took only 1 shadow. It was completely broken and instantly put nin in the front. Once that got kicked, memory serves it was moved into as you said 2 tank system, then it was the 2 blink tank system. Then finally the mostly solo pld/nin cause shield mastery ontop of shadows ontop of easier access to pdt/mdt kits meant plds were just a wall. Still, for a majority of the games life it was never a 1 tank game, level correction/nms that just hit way too hard wouldnt allow for it.
>>336871506
How is a dread going to web, target paint, and warp scramble by itself while doing everything else it needs to? Have you ever even PvP'd in the game? Solo caps get sodomized by even a decent small gang, particularly since everyone loves cap kills and people will come from dozens of systems away to get in on one. Dreads are just helpless entirely, carriers can at least potentially put up some fight and have a chance of escaping if they're being held by a single ship, although even then someone determined can often bump them out of alignment long enough for reinforcements to come on grid (I've done it).
I do love newbs who have bought accounts though and that think caps are "end game" and thus they can get in one and go cruise around as demigods.
>>336860941
Tanking-green
Healing-white
DPS-red
Buffing-blue
Debuffing-black
>>336872478
you're cute
>>336872038
>There will always be a need for a tank which in turn makes there be a requirement for a healer.
No, there have always been games with non-braindead aggro mechanics, and there can certainly be more. When the enemies are actually even mildly smart then the entire concept of a "tank" as in an actual role rather then something every single player has to consider goes poof. Specialist "healer" roles might still make sense in some cases, but it has to be considered how to keep them alive and whether the tradeoff makes sense vs other support roles or more damage or something more balanced.
I don't think Ragnarok Online fell into the shitty trinity trap
>>336872404
When you say "Majority" of the game, I assume you mean endgame, because I always solo tanked leveling content, and most bosses.
Hell, I straight up soloed Diablo as WAR/DNC, and took it to a sliver of 1% hp as BLU/NIN before I missed a stun. (With level cap on)
I could take most of the CoP bosses w/o a healer as PLD, except Ultima, as I could just spam 40 Hi-Potion+3's with my cure2s.
I just needed Ballad, and could tank w/o a healer most of the Lv55-72 range. Just grabbed another DD to kill mobs faster. (Dunno about 72+ as I ended up dinging 72-75 in level capped content, and never actually tanked exp mobs as PLD in that level range. Only merit grinded as BRD and RDM)
Most of the game isnt hard, its just that there's no tutorial to hold ur hand. Once u know what to do, the games was actually very easy. But learning was hard.
>>336854751
trinity exists because of the aggro system
>>336872897
Course i meant end-game when i said majority. People vastly overrate how "hard" the post 75 game was, hw only pld or nin could be tanks, how missions needed this setup, etc.
Even end-game content didnt always need the generic pld or nin, hell for Jailer of love before the RDM nerf the best tank or that was RDM just due to the natural mdb and hate tools the job had, even a properly geared whm could tank to a degree, granted tih was all largely due to the tools of ninja as a subjob, but it kept the doors open nontheless.
>>336869480
Good games are already not using it though. You can get rid of tanks easily because tanking is a stupid concept. Just give players the ability to avoid attacks through skill, not stats, and tanks are suddenly worthless.
>>336872323
>Teamwork requires a player brings something the other can not do.
Would you consider soccer or basketball to be sports that do not have teamwork? Even if a single person can do everything, they can not do everything at the same time. It isn't about numbers, but having a strategy to give your team an advantage in an otherwise even match. It is up to the developer to design situations that will challenge players and require them to take on different roles during a fight to have a better chance of winning. Sure there will always be players that get really good at a game and can play solo while naked, but it doesn't affect the average player.
>>336873530
this just leads to one person kiting a mob around while everyone gangrapes it
also latency exists too, so phantom hits would be a really bad issue
>>336871075
That's basically what GW2 is and it doesn't feel like playing in a party, it feels like soloing next to other people.
It's just bad.
>>336873697
It does not. Small monsters die too fast for hate mechanics to matter, bosses constantly juggle back and forth who they want to hit as they're constantly taking damage from all sides and somebody has to stop the DPS to dodge attacks. The boss never moves.
>also latency exists too, so phantom hits would be a really bad issue
Solution: don't have shit netcode. Action MMOs have had client side hit detection for the last 16 years, this is not an issue.
>>336860507
This is one thing Lineage 2 sort of did right. It had so many variations on the standard classes, that it was hard to call any party composition "the best"
Melee DPS alone consisted of 3 different "rogue" types for burst, a polearm user for aoe melee, a monk type that was incredibly adaptable and great for sustained, a dual wielder heavy armor for sustained and survivability, a 2-handed beast that could also sub as an HP tank and become enraged for absolutely insane damage... the list goes on, and that just melee DPS
Then there's different kind of DPS's, DoT mages, summoners, sorcerers, ranged physical and so on, each of which had about three variations.
Dont even get started on tanks, healers and buffers (which were essential)
The best was, although a lot of games will have an "absolute best", in Lineage's case each individual class would have a specific niche, like how one tank will be better suited for pure physical absoption, while one would be better for magic absorb.
Anyways, just saying. Wish more games had as many well thought out classes as L2 did.
>>336874076
Maybe Guild Wars 2 isn't the only possible result of making a Monster Hunter clone.
>>336873651
Honestly there are inbetween, but closer to lack of teamwork imo. (As its all about matching the opposing teams numbers, otherwise, 1v1 could accomplish the same thing with basketball, and almost with soccer.)
You either have the ball, and you're doing something, or you dont, and you're just doing busy work.
In the case of Soccer, you also had a goaly, who has rules/role unique to them.
(I also hate sports, its too boring/simplistic, like FPS games. I can recognize its quality, but its just not my cup of tea.)
>>336874528
the more "self reliant" you make all characters in a "party" the less actual party interaction takes place.
>>336874115
If you want to do this properly, none of the players should feel safe enough to think of their attacks in terms of damage per second irregardless of who the enemy is currently targeting. We need to end both tanks and dps.
>>336873651
Soccer and Basketball have different players playing different roles. It's pretty obvious you've never played either sport, but there are forwards, defense/guards, and a center. It's not every person out for themselves. If you have too many offensive players with too few defense, an offsides penalty will be called.
>>336874831
>irregardless
Doggy dog world.
But yes, all players should need to dodge attacks and be responsible for their own survival.
>>336874756
Yea, I can see your point about being able to play both sports 1v1, but having a team opens up options you would not have by yourself. It is a way to make the game more fun in the same way that playing a video game with others is fun.
>>336874984
This is actually the point I was trying to make. All of the players are humans with the same potential capabilities, but they do different things to work as a team. The teamwork comes from their cooperation rather than unique capabilities (except for the goalie).
>>336869867
you're still stuck in the box. as long as you're thinking in terms of heals and thread you're still chained to the stupid triangle way of thinking.
>>336876360
okay so what you're saying is every class can fill any role, like hybrid classes, but you only perform one role at a time (say with a limited action skillset), that I can agree with.
>>336877024
So how do you think outside of the box? How do you even create a situation that requires you to think outside of the box?
>>336855086
Yeah, it was such a spectacular success that they brought it back in HoT to remind everyone how bad it was
>>336856373
That's because DPS players in Rift are fucking retarded, leaving the only players who queue as Support the people who are either confident enough or stupid enough to overcome the "but there's only one of that role in the group" stigma and responsibilityThat is, if people still played Rift, anyway.
>>336865506
Basically RuneScape
>it's another "X is bad because <MMO marketing team's ad campaign> said it was!"
At least Anet had the decency to admit they were wrong, the sooner Russians stop funding EVE the sooner we can stop pretending anything about it was good.
>>336872648
buffing isn't really blue's thing at all its also green.
>>336861545
nigga that isn't green/blue
>>336878207
RuneScape is pretty impressive in that it's still good by sticking to its basics.
>>336854751
it's a good system as long as you only rely on healthbars
>dps makes enemy healthbar go down
>healer makes team hp go up
>tank prevents it from going down for him and possibly the team
>>336856946
>by allowing player to not get hit for example by allowing the player to dodge or block damage with a shield, my main problem with MMOs is that it doesn't require any skill to play them and that skilled player still needs a group to do anything.
That's why I enjoyed C9. You can clear all dungeons on hardest difficulty by yourself if you're good with invul-frames and dodges.
https://youtu.be/72QECPz7Rgk
>>336879182
Too simple and therefore boring. Add magic bar and stamina bar and might as well a ton of other shit too.
>>336879182
The way I see it there should be more roles rather than just 3.
Damage (Make enemy HP go down)
Debuffers (Make it easier for Damage to make enemy's HP go down, reduce enemy outgoing damage)
Buffers (increase party outgoing damage, reduce party incoming damage)
Tank (positioning of enemies so that damage can do their job and focusing incoming damage on themselves to make job easier for healers)
Healers (make party HP go up)
Among those roles you can distribute secondary roles of Offtank (to melee dps or support), Interruptor (to dps or debuffer), and Crowd Control (generally to debuffer)
LotRO used to work this way, and I thought the group dynamics worked well because of it. They also had a role for burglars that was to start fellowship maneuvers, which were coordinated team attacks (everyone picks a color, certain combinations of certain colors in certain orders result in some neat attack)
But Turbine has fucked that all up now it's just Trinity, there's no room for buffing or debuffing support anymore (Burglars who spec down yellow line for debuffs don't contribute any damage, and burglars who spec down red line for damage have no debuffs), and they froze fellowship maneuver effects, so that they don't scale beyond level 75 I think, so after that they're useless. People just DPS through the stun now.
It really watered down the combat.
>>336861975
bowguns had healshots in 1? I really don't remember as much as I think I do
>>336879905
There were more roles than 3, but with time, everyone was like fuck that shit and condensed it down to the roots. People complaining about the triangle don't realize the struggle it took to simplify shit and the efficiency that arose from it.
>>336867423
you know those what-ifs about living in game worlds? I think I would chose the World of Twelve. I wish wakfu was better; maybe it is, I haven't played in a long while
>>336854751
The answer is to make a diamond, Anarchy Online has easily shown that having powerful control over mobs pretty much makes them into their own class of power.
>>336880812
Tell me more about this Anarchy Online.
>>336854751
Ta, Tb, Tc
Da, Db, Dc
Ha, Hb, Hc
Then maybe add some hybrid classes but meta game will probably forget them.
All I want is some variation and different viable skill set ups. Like Guild Wars 1. honestly though, I care more about interesting world economies in MMOs rather than raids and mob farming.
>>336880225
Trinity is really fucking boring though, because with efficiency comes a lack of class diversity. LotRO groups now just have 1 guardian tank, and 4-5 Runekeepers, maybe a minstrel healing (but the 5th runekeeper would be a healing runekeeper in a 5 RK party), where before, with the multiple roles, you wanted a captain, a loremaster or a burglar, a champion or warden, etc, a group of 6 used to have at least 5 different classes in it, maybe 6 different classes.
Now you're lucky if there are 3 different classes in your group.
>>336862229
>roll a priest
>go around healing people and participating in different activities outside of combat
>want to tank
>roll a tank
It's not too bad.
Let me tell you I played Guild Wars 2 and the entire game is groups of 60 people running around trying to out DPS, then when a boss focuses on you it's time to run away and hope he harasses someone else. No fun whatsoever.
>>336880940
You can still play it, it's free to play and still going because of how great it is.
What I'm talking about from personal experience is a class called Bureaucrat, where he might be mistaken for a summoner, but had insane AoE calms and pacifies that really made it worthwhile to have in a party, to the point of almost needing one. Their other benefits were having a fairly luxurious looking robot that punched shit for you, and being able to pacify up to two enemies to fight for you which was only limited by your stats and bosses. Later on it wasn't uncommon for these classes to literally run through dungeons by themselves casting AoE pacifies and watch as the enemies were stuck pacified unable to do anything unless they were attacked first.
>>336881245
Man, you can say it's boring, but it's revolutionary shit to just have 3 roles since everything can pretty much branch off from them.
Unless you can explain to me the appeal of class diversity and how it would really separate itself from the trinity mindset. You would have to really go out of your way.
>>336881440
The trinity as a general abstract concept for design isn't really bad, it's just that most put adherence to the trinity over making classes unique, interesting, or fun to play. Add in bland boss design that's more about numbers than mechanics or skillful play and you get a boring game.
>>336878792
Blue has a couple of buff cards, plus I can't think of "making you draw cards out your ass" as anything other than buffing in mmos.
