I only started playing during TBC, but on paper TBC seemed to be a much better game than Vanilla, and WOW only started going downhill at the end of WOTLK.
Wouldn't you guys prefer a TBC server over vanilla server considering. TBC was a better game overall?
>>336057645
TBC invented welfare gear, daily quests and gated raid content
even worse, Arena came about. and Arena ruined wow for sure
>>336057764
There was gated raid content in vanilla too smartass.
The only thing that might arguably be detrimental is the way "welfare epics" were handled, but that was more to allow alts and late adopters to catch up since guilds were only concerned about the progression content.
>>336057764
That's the most retarded thing I've heard all day.
How the hell did Arena ruin wow?
WotLK > TBC > Vanilla > MoP >>> Cata >>>>>> WoD
Easily.
WotLK and TBC both fumbled by adding things that would eventually lead to the downfall of the game, but while in their respective expansions they weren't out of control.
TBC had 2v2 Arena, which was great fun
TBC had better raiding
TBC had much better 5-man content
But Vanilla had that fresh feeling. Like when Alterac Valley first came out, or doing 15-man UBRS runs, going through Blackrock Depths for the first time, the outdoor raid bosses & later the dragons, and of course the AQ40 gates opening event and all the effort leading up to it.
In TBC they were already starting to streamline things and making "systems" and trying to make all specs viable etc. Vanilla was more original.
>>336057917
God I was soo pissed off when they removed the Kara key requirement.
It took me soo much work to get it, and then *poof* it's gone...
>>336057645
It was the last time raiding had a clear progression. They practically invented content droughts with that retarded philosophy of making only the newest raid tier relevant.
>>336057952
I dunno Naxx 2.0 was pretty fucking retarded...
>>336057952
WotLK had Naxxramas, which was absolute dogshit and a walk in the park, Ulduar which was good, ToC which still to this day is the worst raid released in the game (and you had to do it four times a week...) and then ICC which was also good.
That's only a two out of four. And PVP became extremely bursty giving rise to the retarded spellcleaves that dominated 3v3.
By any metric WotLK was one of the worst, if not the worst, expansions of the game. Which is why the game peaked during WotLK following the TBC & Vanilla momentum, and only declined after that.
>>336057764
>gated raid content
>literally 3 bosses were gated
Sunwell was shit for multiple reason, but gating hardly mattered unless you were a diehard fanboy of one of those top raiding guilds.
>>336057947
if you had played during TBC you'd know why.
They were going to gut warlocks pve ability because Life Tap was too powerful in pvp. They also wanted sitting down and eating to be more of a risk, so they were going to change it so that you didn't gain health and mana back for 5 seconds. my guild was learning Mt Hyjal during that time, and 5 seconds would have made each healer have at best 50% mana between waves, let alone a boss
also the death wish swap into arms nerfed fury warriors pretty badly
and my personal gripe, they did not have an offhand sword usable by rogues from Black Morass heroic ALL the way up till Mother Sharaz in BT. the only alternative was the arena one
The introduction of Flying mounts was the first step towards downfall imho...
>>336058430
Poor warlocks had such a hard time in TBC PvE
Let's be honest here NostalgiaBots, Vanilla sucked, TBC to WOTLK was WoW's prime.
Even Cata,MOP and WoD are better than Vanilla, get out of your nostalgia ridden asshole. Vanilla Fanbois.
>>336057947
All the best gear was in Arena.
There was no use to batlegrounds for gear.
You needed Arena gear to be good at Arena, meaning you needed to grind yet another set of armor that constantly improved every season.
They added Resilience for Arena, which made Arena gear even MORE important.
With such small groups, it became easier to run FotM classes to utterly ruin lives.
With honor unimportant, world PvP became even more dead than it already was with flying mounts.
>>336057952
TBC > Vanilla > Wrath
Wrath was pretty good at the start, but as the shit got added, the second half became unbearable, dropping hard after Ulduar. With over half an expansion poor, it doesn't stand up to Vanilla, which was plain, but polished.I would murder at least two people Blizzard would get their head out of their ass and have Vanilla Dungeons and crafting, TBC's world, and a combination of all three's raids.
>>336058475
Also heroic dungeons
like its nice for a lot dungeons to be relevant at end game as well, but it just ended up with Blizzard providing fewer and worse designed instances and eventually led to "run this raid on 4 difficulties" thats fucking awful
>>336057764
"Welfare" gear that wasn't even good enough to clear 5 man heroics.
Yes, PvP was a fucking mess, but everything else was a step in the right direction from Vanilla.
>>336058868
>welfare gear wasnt good enough to clear heroics
spot the retard
>>336058641
when my guild fielded three of them, yes it was going to significantly affect our raiding ability
>>336058868
i'm talking about badge gear, which was at first the same level as, you guessed it, the epics that came from heroics
then during sunwell it was t6 equivalent. leather pants were bis and they fucked with my appearance
>>336058727
>With honor unimportant, world PvP became even more dead than it already was with flying mounts.
Sounds like you never played the Vanilla honor system
As someone who climbed to Field Marshal, it was impossible to gain anywhere near enough honor to compete from world PVP.
The way to climb honor ranks in Vanilla was always the same: premade WSG and later AB groups. Preferably running as many Warriors as possible.
World PVP had nothing to do with it.
Arena in TBC was good, 2v2 was so much better than the 3v3 they forced down our throats later on. And it was not dominated by FotM classes, there was a wide variety.
>>336058727
>There was no use to batlegrounds for gear.
BGs gave the last season's gear which was literally good enough to push for gladiator.
>You needed Arena gear to be good at Arena
geez what next, having to raid to be good at raiding?
>They added Resilience for Arena, which made Arena gear even MORE important.
resil was in BG gear too
>With such small groups, it became easier to run FotM classes to utterly ruin lives.
did you even play vanilla? how were tbc fotm classes less cancerous than vanilla rogues for example?
>With honor unimportant, world PvP became even more dead than it already was with flying mounts.
the only valid argument, but flying mounts and shit had a lot more to do with wpvp dying than arena did.
>>336058727
>Vanilla world and dungeon design
>TBC progression and questing
>Ulduar-like raids
>MoP class balance
Literally the perfect WoW.
>>336057645
Outland itself was really nice, but flying mounts and welfare epics were fucking terrible additions to the game.
Also I dunno, I feel like the trend of pushing high level players into one area, away from the original continents was undesirable. It left Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms feeling deserted.
>>336058430
>were going to gut warlocks
>were going to change change
well did they or did they not
the fuck do things that didn't happen have to do with anything?
Flying mounts would have been fine if they maxed out at 60% speed, and had a parachute if you dismounted willingly, allowing you to safely unmount other players and kill them.
It wasn't better or worse overall, just a matter of preference. However, it did sow a lot of seeds of pure cancer like >>336057764 mentioned.
>>336058152
Honestly I feel like all of the attunements should have been kept but that one in particular was the one that made the least sense to remove. It was literally just running a few 5mans so you could grasp basic boss mechanics.
>>336058318
DESU they didn't change anything about naxx mechanically aside from the four horsemen encounter.....classes just got that much better in between xpacs. I will admit it was pretty much a cakewalk but barely anyone in the game even saw the end of one wing and they released it at a bad time when vanilla was on its' way out the door. I would have been fine with them reusing it if it was just a little harder.
ToC had some bosses that were mechanically fun but it was obviously a failed attempt at filler raid content.
I'd rather have bursty arenas than resto druids making matches last 45 minutes...no problems there.
Wotlk was the second best expansion we've had....it wasn't riding vanilla's "momentum" (lol) it was riding its' own.
>>336058430
I played enhancement shaman and I had the same problem. I was using the boggspine knuckles until BT when they finally made some good offhand weapons.
>>336058475
>>336059194
>>336058727
>asshurt about flying mounts
Kill yourselves. If you want to pvp that's that battlegrounds and arenas were for. Literally only rogues and feral druids were mad about this.
>>336058771
But BC and Wotlk had shitloads of instances. Heroics were fine (though badly implemented at first).
>>336058868
The "welfare" items were actually ilvl 141...which was BT/MH quality gear. It was a little too much desu.
>>336059014
The first run of badge gear was fine and it would have stayed fine if they didn't make it entry level sunwell gear at the end. They went too far with it.
>>336057645
BC was pretty good.
Only thing that sucked was getting all of your alt's keyed and attuned
I liked wrath more desu, at least up until the end of ToGC
>>336057917
TBC also ruined five man dungeons, turning then into loot hallways.
BC, while overall fun and still felt like a game, introduced a lot of things that led to the game's decline.
>>336059014
The badge gear originally covered only a few slots and was on par with the 5 man heroic epics.
It was shortly before the Sunwell when they added gear that was basically 2 tiers (1 during 2.3) below the endgame gear and I doubt that helped many people to get into raiding at that point.
>>336059141
> TBC progression and questing
> questing
Let's stop jerking ourselves off, WoD had superior visuals and questing than any other expansion.
Better raids, better PVP, better everything.
>>336059327
just an example of the environment raiders had to operate under. not like i could just go fishing for some more raiders, as attunement requirements were so rough.
i leveled leatherworking to cap overnight so i could drum for brutallus. every single dps in my raid was a leatherworker on our first kill. my guild wasn't the only one doing it. leather was an ultra high commodity
>>336059508
>COT dungeons
>Shadow lab
>Steamvault
>Loot hallways
Aside from BRD and LBRS name a dungeon in vanilla that wasn't also basically a fucking hallway.
>>336057645
yea, and Wotlk was better than BC, too bad Wow died with Arthas
>>336059763
I remember volunteering to pick up LW and having my guild's bank pay for most of the clefthoof leather and shit. I got moved around so much during the brutallus fight.
>>336059763
Poor little raiders. You do realise that PvPers always get shafted when it comes to game balance?
Fucking 4/4 glaive rogues and stunherald warriors man.
>>336059862
we made money for it by farming hearts and selling resist gear to guilds that were in progress in BT.
but it was a shit ton of gold. if it weren't for marks of the illidari we'd have never have made it
>>336059763
let's not forget the fucking 50+ mana pots you had to burn every night. I spent so much money on that shit.
>>336059981
pvp is on the same level as steam tonks. why should my highly organized group activity have to accommodate for mouthbreathing e-peen jerking gankers
>>336058958
The welfare gear were the arena sets earned for spamming BG.
Decent badge gear came very late and even then, the casuals weren't exactly the most apt at clearing heroics to farm them
>>336059135
>BGs gave last season's gear
Later on.
>having to raid to be good at raiding
If you're gonna push Arena as skill-based, then why make it very gear dependent?
>resil was in BG gear too
But it still added the stat that was mandatory for any PvP for then on.
>vanilla rouges
Admittedly horrible, but not imagine there's two of them and you're a team of two clothies. You've lost before the match starts. Don't even act like FotM classes weren't a major Arena problem. Saying "Well it was broken then too, so broken is OK now." is retarded.
>>336059119
It was still worth SOMEthing. In TBC, no one wanted to raid Ogrimmar or Stormwind nearly as much, because it gave them nothing other than the kill of an NPC. The motivation was gone since there was always a huge chance to fail, lose a lotta gold, get camped, and everything else, but now, Honor did jack diddly and you didn't even get a consolation prize.
>>336060087
>tbc raiding
>highly organized group activity
literally 10 core members with a clue carrying 15 shitters.
t. someone who PvPed at a relatively high level and quit raiding after kalecgos
>>336060216
Archi says high
>my tears didn't go off
Test your latency outside the raid then
>>336060297
>+30 spirit
For what purpose....?
>>336060394
so when the horde cheerleaders said 'We got spirit, how bout you?' We could affrim that yes, we did in fact have spirit
>>336060216
That only applied to Vanilla 40 man raiding.
TBC had soft enrage mechanics in more than half of the encounters and you simply couldn't progress with that much dead weight.
>>336060564
no seriously, most of the people in my raid group were fucking awful at the game
we're talking about sl/sl warlocks that lose to mages in duels
>>336059726
Linear questing is literally cancer. It's fun the first time and then every time after that feels like shit. In TBC you could do half of Hellfire Peninsula and then go to the second half of Zangarmarsh, do a camp or two of quests, go to Terrokar for a few levels doing whichever quests you wanted, and then you could go back to Zangarmarsh, finish it up, and then choose any number of places to go after that. There were zones you could completely skip over if you wanted. I know a lot of my friends hated Zangarmarsh and Blade's Edge so they never did them and never had to.
WoD questing is a straight fucking line from Frostfire/Shadowmoon all the way to Nagrand and there was very very little deviation from that. The only good thing WoD did with questing were the artifacts you could find that would give you exp and the bonus areas which were decent.
Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm alone in this opinion, but I absolutely despised WoD leveling.
I miss vanilla deadmines.
>>336061297
My very first Vancleef kill was cheesed despite my protests. The priest in our group wouldn't move off the cannon on the side of the ship so we were forced to cheese it.
>>336061107
The issue you describe can easily be summed up as "singeplayer experience focus in an mmo" and let's be frank, that shit killed the entire genre.
This is the reason for group finder. This is the reason they removed all the world group quests.
Catering to people who refuse to interact with others turns your mmo into a shallow singleplayer shell of a game.
>>336058318
WotLK had arguably three of the worst raids, Neo-Naxx, TotC, and RS.
I'll never understand why people say that WotLK is the best. It further trivialized leveling, PvP balance was shit unless you played Ret or DK, all it has is Ulduar and the nice setting.Also all the leveling armor looked the same.
>>336057645
Each expansion has improved gameplay and added polish, but taken a way a little bit of the RPG and social aspect of the game. I think the reason why people like BC more is that it's still a lot like Vanilla, but a bit more balanced and polished.
>>336062142
WOD didnt improve gameplay at all though
>>336062142
I feel like the only one in the world who liked TotC. Some people hated the arena aspect of it, but I loved it. It was out of place and stupid from a lore perspective, but arena dungeons always tickle me.
>>336057645
TBC
>achivements
>daily rep and quests
>even more instanced pvp
>fly mounts
>40 man reduced to 25 man
all complete awful and garbage
>>336063086
The bosses were fun but it was obviously a quick fix filler raid and it was sandwiched between two of the best raids we've ever gotten so everyone is going to look back on it with some disgust.
>>336063760
>bitching about improvements
Kill yourself please
>>336063903
>improvements
>>336063760
achieves were Wrath
>>336064000
>achievements
Some of them were a little silly but shit like pet/mount collecting or the holiday meta achievements were fun
>daily rep/quests
Were fine, gave you something to do on your main on non raid nights aside from farm.
>Instanced PVP
Not everybody was a rogue who spent his whole life in STV. This was a good thing.
>Flying mounts
Again only stealth classes camping questing zones were mad about this. I couldn't possibly care less. It was still easy to find and murder someone if they weren't AFK.
>40 man reduced to 25
40 man raids were a nightmare to manage from an officer perspective and 25 was about how many non retards you had in a 40 man raid anyway. This change was for the better.
Again, kill yourself
>>336063086
Ulduar was the most innovative and ground breaking raid tier at that point and set the bar really high. The backlash was innevitable when it was followed with 4 bosses in the same room and then one in a cave. At that time, changing the way raid difficulty worked to a "boring" menu toggle didn't sit right with people either. TotC was dead on arrival good encounter designs would not save it from hate.
>>336063760
Daily rep/quests were in their infancy with Skettis/Ogrila/Netherwing/Isle of Quel'Danas and 25 man content was way better than 40man.
40man raiding was a joke until you hit late AQ40.
>>336064412
>daily rep gave you something to do
except it didnt, because you already did it and then were stuck with nothing to do. Thats fucking shitty, repeatable need to be a thing always
>flying mounts are okay
fuck off wrathbaby nobody cares about your shit fucking opinion
>>336059770
Dread maul I think was the name, the one with the ogres and elementals. Wailing caverns was also big I remember. Zul Farrah had 2 routes I believe.
>>336064950
Dire Maul, good dungeon(s)
>>336063760
Achievements were from WotLK and 40m going to 25m was a needed change.
Daily quests weren't that intrusive since there weren't that many and they were mostly for a constant income of gold. Flying mounts were cool at first, but they did make world PvP less common, at least we got Halaa.
>>336064936
You couldn't be more of an asshurt rogue main if you tried.
>>336064950
ZF was essentially a hall with one fork that ended in the same spot anyway. I guess I can give you dire maul but wasn't that like...three different dungeons? I remember the north wing being the only one that was significantly different.
>>336065374
I never leveled a rogue past 10, carebear
>>336065134
>People bitch that world pvp got hurt with flying
>They forget about Halaa, isle of Quel'Danas, wintergrasp, etc
>>336065509
Then you're just an idiot. Catching someone afk while they were taking a piss is not world pvp. It was still very easy to run up to someone questing and murder them. Flying mounts didn't change shit.
>>336065631
>flying mounts didnt change shit
sorry, I guess that when you were running between quests that was you afk taking a piss? Dont pretend like helicopter questing isnt a thing
>>336065548
>Isle of Quel'Danas
you mean the place where flight was disabled?
>>336065782
Catch them during the quest then, fuck. It's not like you were going to kill them on their mounts half the time anyway,
>>336065862
Flight being disabled is why I listed it there as a world pvp spot....
>>336065862
your reading comprehension score isn't sufficient to enter this dungeon
>>336065929
>>336065978
The post clearly implied that complaining about flight hurting pvp was wrong because people were ignoring Pvp hotspots
then listed an area without flight as a pvp hotspot
fuck off retards
>>336066176
(You)
>>336057645
Of course it was better. Its not even a contest.
I just couldn't stand leveling in Outland. Even when they reduced the xp needed I still dreaded getting there on each character.
>>336062014
>This is the reason for group finder.
That wasn't because of singleplayer focus, that is because most people who play videogames that aren't fighting games are inherently antisocial. They will only interact with others if you force them to.
>>336062142
>I'll never understand why people say that WotLK is the best.
Because to a lot of people, Wrath was the thing that a lot of WoW players played the game for, and that is to finish the story of WC3.
>>336066452
If the group is formed for you and considering the difficulty of 5 mans after TBC (with a short spike in early Cata) you may as well get away with treating the other 4 people as bots.
>flying mounts
>welfare epics
>arena
>daily quests
>>336066638
You're ignoring the point I'm making.
The only reason LFG worked wasn't because people hated sitting in town for an hour shouting LFM, it worked because the reality is people don't want to play with other people. Nerds aren't like normal people, they don't like socializing.
>>336066717
>An expansion expanded upon my game
>I hate it now
Deal with it
>>336066907
They did back when there was no way around it. Do you think the "normies" formed the guilds that actually did the 40 man content?
>>336067394
It's kind of like adding 3 inches to the length of your dick, except those extra 3 inches are crooked.
>>336057645
WoW was always shit.
>>336067505
>They did back when there was no way around it.
Yeah, which only proves my point. They'll only socialize if you force them to.
>>336067521
I loved the shit out of everything TBC did for the game. To each their own.
TBC raids and dungeons were bretty gud.
>>336058284
It wasn't for people like me who started in TBC and never Saw NAXX before. It was a really fun raid.
>>336067825
Most people didnt see naxx v1 anyways, but the wotlk version was so incredibly easy it wasn't even fun to run.
>>336067586
I wouldn't exactly call it forcing. It was the natural flow of things. Back then when you were getting into an mmo you had the mindset that you will be interacting with other people and that was actually its selling point.
Then somewhere along the line people started hating that and it was basically the downfall of the genre since fixing it only made everything worse.
>>336068318
>and that was actually its selling point.
No let's not kid ourselves, the selling point was that it was Warcraft The RPG
>>336068424
It was only a part of its success. The novelty of playing online with other people was still strong and Blizzard made sure to get the word out that WoW is very accessible.
>>336068318
People didn't realize that for mmos to be interesting they have to be inconvenient and troublesome, things like traveling to cities, finding groups to play with other forced interaction with others created a world. This created things like pvp outside of dungeons and all the random events that made mmos enjoyable.
Convenience (lfg, loot dungeons/ welfare epics/ flying mounts for the most part) made it so that you really didn't have to do anything but sit in town and queue for shit, so the only people in the actual world outside of daily places were just a couple people leveling alts.
>>336068731
>It was only a part of its success
It was a GIGANTIC part. Blizz's selling power has always been from the strength of its IPs.
>>336058318
WotLK would have been the best expac if it werent for the fact that the A-team was gradually being moved to work on Project Titan, aka Overwatch.
>Azjol Nerub underground zone and Raid
>Gun'drak raid
>Vrykul raid
>full Nexus raid
>Crystalsong forest quests and factions
>all scrapped or turned into shit cause the B-team didn't have "muh resources"
>>336068067
Ulduar 10 normals could be done in blues. Hard modes in naxx 25 gear were still harder though, dem mechanics.
>>336068915
Titan was not Overwatch. Maps and assets were reused in Overwatch, but Titan was explictly stated to have been another MMO in development
>>336069006
Project Titan was split into Destiny and Overwatch
>>336069101
Destiny was bungie I think.
>>336069784
Blizzard-Activision
Activision helped make Destiny
>>336068980
>Hard modes
The only hard achievements were the ones for 4 horseman and Thaddius....and obv the "don't die" one.
>>336057645
TBC was a mixed bag. It had some nice zones like Zangarmarsh, but it also had flying mounts which ruined a lot of things like exploring and pvp
>>336068915
Don't forget thedance studio
>>336070923
How did they ruin exploring? You didn't get them till 70 and most people couldn't afford them for a while anyway. On top of that there were a ton of areas only reachable with flying. If anything they helped exploring.
It was still totally possible to kill someone while they were on the ground questing, I know because I did and had it done to me numerous times...nothing was "ruined"
>>336071343
>you didnt get them until 70
you didnt cover every inch of the map before you hit 70
>tons of areas reachable only with flying
nope, there were a handful, and in each only 1 quest really utilized flight.
>you could still kill someone on the ground
except for the fact that people rarely landed with flying mounts
No, I want a progression server.
Starts at earliest Vanilla patch, and gradually works its way patch by patch until a BC server is released that you can transfer your character to, and so on.
>>336071578
>Implying people were always mounted
If you wanted to gank someone you could...easily.
Skettis, the Netherwing Island, Ogrila, Tempest keep, etc. Flying mounts were great and I loved finally getting my nether ray (guild mate and I were in skettis all day on day one and got ours)
>>336071835
Fuck this.
I want dynamic world.
>>336071958
Is there something meaningful to the game that flying mounts added other than being "cool"?
>>336071958
>flying mounts were great
why?
>if you wanted to gank someone you could
if you caught them in the world (unlikely since people werent on the land 90% of the time) and they didnt notice you since they could easily run away
>>336072065
By that logic regular mounts ruined the game first.
What the fuck else reason does there need to be? I get to ride around on a fucking dragon, that's apex level fantasy coolness right there.
So Blizz is so desperate for subs they gave me WoD and 7 free days, can I use this to shitpost on the forums? Or will I need to put my credit card in?
>>336072065
made gathering herbs a lot easier
also added a state of perpetual readiness on the ground, as all classes could effectively stealth now
>>336063903
>quick fix filler raid
blizzard won't even do this anymore, they just let the game rot for 14 months then ask for $50
>>336066452
you also need to incentivize player interaction because it's time consuming as hell
>>336071958
it was literally impossible to kill my nelf druid with flight
>>336072237
>comparing regular mounts to flying
regular mounts only offered a speed boost. They still had the same restrictions as you had running on the ground. Flying mounts break that, and exist in a world nearly entirely designed for being on the ground
its fucking stupid, and
>being on a dragon is cool
it doesnt make fucking sense, especially with how sentient dragons are in WoW
>>336072368
>exist in a world nearly entirely designed for being on the ground
but that's wrong?
>>336072368
>Regular mounts were only a speed boost
Which made it harder to catch and kill people in the world and thus harmed pvp according to your logic.
Proto drakes were pretty retarded and they gave you several of those as mounts.
Arguing that the world was designed around ground travel is semantics....flying exists and the game accommodates it. I'm sorry you can't stand around STV stealthed and feel like a badass anymore
>>336072342
I'll give you flight form being retarded since it was instant and all.
Classic fantasy aesthetic > Alien planet multicolored clown clothes aesthetic
subjective, but IMO, mechanic-wise TBC fixed alot of shit that was fucking broken in vanilla, so i guess it was a bit better....but then again a whole bunch of other broken crap was added in TBC....like fucking pvp gear, arenas, overpowered crafted gear,unkillable raid bosses....
>>336057645
>Playing Kronos
>Really just slow and brutal but still enjoying myself since its free
>Have to kill fucking elite ogres and a boss
>Boss is protected by 2 body guards
>Also a lot higher level
>get my partys shit pushed in 6 times until we devise a strategy to cheese it
>Finish
>Run out of quest to do in the area
This was.... fun...?
>>336072730
>overpowered crafted gear
To be fair you had to raid to get that stuff.
>PVP gear
PVPers bitched that you had to PVE to get the gear to be good at PVP. That's why it exists
Funny thing is the opposite started happening since the PVP weapons ended up being way more readily available than the PVE ones.
>>336058284
In WotLK, you had the entire Azjol-Nerub zone get cut as well as several raids: Gun'Drak, Azjol-Nerub, and a Vrykul raid.
As well as the Naga plotline in Borean Tundra. The Ethereal / Blue Dragonflight connection was also never developed.
The questing in Crystalsong forest also got eaten up by plot fairies (presumably because even glancing in the direction of Dalaran caused older PCs to freeze up)
>>336072537
>>336072614
How is it wrong? Enemies pretty much only operate at or near ground level while flying mounts go far above it. Multiple abilities require a surface to utilize in any way as well. Mobs will even evade sometimes if you arent on the same ground as them. All nodes are placed on or within reach of the ground.
The game is designed for the ground, and next to nothing is doable from the air if you arent a druid, and even then you need to be near the ground
the issue with flight is that you can use it to AVOID much of the world. This includes enemy players, hostile mobs and terrain obstacles. This leads to helicopter questing and lack of interaction with other players. Any sort of "travel time" complaints were dismissed by flight points which took you within a reasonable distance of your objectives without holding your hand right up to the clickable object
>>336073518
the fact that outlands wasn't "nearly entirely designed for being on the ground"
being unable to fly at all cuts you off from a lot of content with the way the world is designed, so how can you say otherwise?
>>336074021
you mean just TK and skettis which could've easily been made ground accessible or given a port?
>>336072990
>First thing i do is check trigger discipline
I fucking knew I was fully gay and not bi.
>>336072730
>>336069101
thats just a rumor
>>336057952
>but while in their respective expansions they weren't out of control.
This I agree with. But despite having played since Vanilla, and despite my best days being during Wotlk, I still can't place Vanilla, TBC or Wotlk #1 comfortably, they were all great and I'd be happy with progression servers where we're given 2 years with each expansion.
I know it's semi-unrelated but all this WoW talk since the Nost incident convinced me to bite the bullet on the game and pick up Legion because apparently it fixes what WoD did wrong. How the fuck do I get back to Stormwind and why is the loot system such bullshit?
>>336067394
Wow expansions aren't really expansions. Because EXPANSION implies you EXPAND upon what's currently in the game, but that's not what wow expansions are. Wow expansions REPLACE the current content in the game, making it completely irrelevant, that's what's wrong with wow expansions.
>>336074910
Wow, you actually bought into the "fixes the game" propaganda?
Did WoD teach you nothing? They promised the world and delivered what is arguably the worst expansion we've ever gotten.
>>336074910
>and pick up Legion because apparently it fixes what WoD did wrong.
Congratulations, you're everything that's wrong with the gaming industry. You fall for that shit = You're retarded
>>336075107
their marketers are too good man! i can't!
>>336074910
>apparently it fixes what WoD did wrong
They've been saying this since MoP which was supposed to fix all the Catashit and WoD was supposed to fix what wasn't fixed
why would you believe them again? we literally already know it's going to be facebook WoD shit again
>>336075312
By giving them money, you're enabling their bad practices, and you won't even get anything out of it. I noticed that WoW was finished after reaching max level in MoP, and abandoned ship immediately, haven't played since.
>>336075332
MoP was the best expansion since Wrath
>>336075014
>>336075107
I haven't paid attention to WoW literally for years. Last time I attempted to try it was Cata because they gave it to me free and I was so fucking blindsided from the sudden locale shift that I said fuck it for another 3 years. I probably still wouldn't care if everyone wasn't suddenly talking about WoW. So excuse me for wanting to give it the college try I never did.
>inb4 muh private servers
If I wanted to grind obsessively with even SLOWER gain rates I would resub to FFXIV and bash my face against a wall until I hit currency caps.
>>336062142
> It further trivialized leveling
>implying it was a bad thing for leveling to not be the fucking mind-numbing slog of vanilla
You just keep on slapping more coats of rose-colored paint on your nostalgia goggles, faggot.
>>336075332
Cata was supposed to fix WotLK problems too.
People forget that WotLK was widely hated after it ended. Gearscore, disappearance of raiding progression, a string of shit raids, heroic mode being a lazy-ass button press.
Most everyone I know quit during WotLK (myself included), and most of those people never came back.
It's easy to forget this shit with everyone gushing over Wrath now.
>>336075008
that was one of the things cata did right, took place mostly in azeroth but with new zones
>>336075332
Because when it comes to WoW I have literally lived under a rock for 3 years. All I knew about WoD is that it lacked content
>>336075393
which means absolutely nothing
the beginning of cata wasn't bad. only dragon soul ruined it.
>>336075616
Well, I'm just telling you to go into Legion with low expectations.
At worst, you won't be very disappointed.
>>336075869
firelands was awful
>>336057645
Content, and raiding were the highlights of TBC.
But it was BC where things started to change for random reasons. Flying was added, and near the end they added the LFG function, both fundamentally lead to the downfall of what made Vanilla great. Also, arena changed the game quite a bit, they changed the whole system without even thinking it through. Season 1 was pretty much the only good season since arena came out.
Wrath was only good because it was basically just an add on and streamlined game of what BC was supposed to be. But there were tons of flaws in wrath as well, the only saving grace it had was the amazing content and story, which was riding off the back of a vanilla's cliffhanger ending, and WC3.
Vanilla had a lot of flaws, but it's been over a decade since, if they fired up a legacy server now all those flaws could be fixed and more.
>>336058641
That's a joke right, world first sunwell was just shadowbolt spam hitting for over 10k and topping the charts. Not to mention being tanks in multiple encounters because of searing pain spam and resist gear.
Then there is sl/sl, fucking locs had it so easy in BC
>>336076014
t. Ragnaros
get over it buddy you'll never be relevant
>>336075393
>>336076132
what?
>>336075957
My expectations are basically "There was an attempt to not make the same mistakes twice" and that Demon Hunter is hopefully fun to use.
>>336075694
>rose tinted glasses
>rose tinted glasses
>rose tinted glasses
it doesn't matter if you repeat it three, five hundred or a thousand times, still doesn't mean it's true.
>>336076295
nice chart you got there buddy, the expansion was great tho
>>336059119
2v2 was unbalanced as fuck. The top teams always included a rogue, and most of the top teams were dual rogue.
lets not forget that rogue got even stronger come WotLK as well
>>336076416
Nope, it wasn't. You're just an easily entertained retard who enables bad business practices by throwing your money at anything that helps you kill time, because you're so uncreative you can't think of better ways to spend your time and money.
>>336076356
>there was an attempt to not make the same mistakes twice
>so we are pruning utility spells again and more mission tables
>>336076014
it was mostly just too short, 7 bosses is a joke, also molten front kinda sucked
>>336076056
complaints about LFG refer to the post 3.3 version, prior to that it was fine
>>336076546
so?
Shut the fuck up you stupid fucking wowfag.
>>336076295
>wrath that high
killyourself wrathbaby
>>336076626
>so?
So, MOP wasn't a good expansion, you're wrong.
>>336076662
It was atleast good, whether you think it was very good or god-tier is up to personal preference.
>>336076687
i disagree, it was great, if wod could have been at least the same, i still would be playing
>>336076356
You've already set the bar too high, anon. It's going to end in disappointment. I'm sorry.
>>336076804
no, it was mediocre with Ulduar being the only redeeming factor
Wrath and Mists were equal in every way. 1 amazing raid tier, 1 okay raid tier that lasted too long and everything else being ass.
>>336076820
>i disagree, it was great
It's not an opinion, it's a fact that MoP wasn't a good expansion.
>>336076836
Wouldn't be the most regretful purchase decision I've made
>>336076908
i still loved it
>>336076969
You're mentally disabled then
>>336077039
so?
>>336076908
Give me reasons why
I bet those apply to shit like Wrath and TBC as well.
>>336076921
Blizzards propaganda has made you so retarded you think you need to argue against buying their products, rather than arguing for why you should buy them at all.
I'm so sorry for you
>>336077106
Even easier dungeons, even more welfare epics, even more unbalanced pvp, even less world pvp, bad lore (Pandas were an aprils fool joke), the general atmosphere of the expansion was terrible, and most importantly, community was completely dead.
>>336077261
i disagree
Blizzard if you are reading, make an MoP 2.0 and you will be fine!
>>336077261
>easier dungeons
Wrath
>more welfare epics
LFR was welfare as fuck but at least the ilvl was lower, wrath had welfare on par with tier
>more unbalanced Pvp
lmao it was better than TBC PvP
>bad lore
pandas doesnt make something bad, this is an incredibly vague comment.
>atmosphere was terrible
vague again
>community was dead
thank you wrath for all the streamlining, again.
>>336077583
None of your points are correct.
>>336077638
All of your points are correct.
>>336077485
>i disagree
Can't disagree with facts.
>>336077725
>Can't disagree with facts.
i disagree
I think most of the people on nost and the other servers were really just waiting for corecraft.
>>336077136
What does that have to do with what I just said? I said nothing about asking for reasons not to buy it, I don't really care, I already bought it, nothing to do now but see if I made a mistake or not
>>336063086
I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few who like the Argent Tournament dailies. Jousting was fun.
>>336077261
at least mop improved on what existed, which can't be said for wrath
>>336078046
>>336078652
someone forgot his autism pills
>>336078652
>BC > Wrath
opinion discarded
>>336078868
Just highlighting the stupidity of the guys argument, I'm not of the opinion that tbc was better than wrath.
>>336076014
firelands was mid cata m8
>>336078773
>if you're not an intellectually inferior retard like me, you're autistic!!
>>336078941
mid cata was awful then
TBC gave players a clear and distinct outline, which it didn't really have in Vanilla.
Want to raid? Do these heroic 5mans, get the required rep, then move into Karazhan.
Want to PvP? Get a group of people together whose classes mesh well, and play to your strengths. Your success is rewarded by better PvP gear (although admittedly in 5v5 we got Gladiator running 4 DPS and being a HPal I ran exclusively in PvE gear) and the top .5% got exclusive netherdrakes, one of my most prized possessions.
It gave players a way to generate income, not through mindless mob grinding, but through daily quests to complete for gold and rewards for doing them often.
It allowed the player to not only grow as they level, but to understand and implement tactics to overcome challenges. Things like LOS and chain CC were not widely used by most players, even in organized PvP. New raid mechanics were introduced (now considered braindead easy at this point) with it culminating into Sunwell, the most difficult and punishing raid tiers for its time.
I consider all of those points to be good. It was an alternative to what we had in Vanilla. We look at gated content, daily quests, and meticulous rep grinding with disdain, but for its time it was built better than its predecessor.
It did have its problems - gated content lead to feeder guilds. Guilds that were stuck in a tier and seen as little more than a funnel to get players geared and settled into the top progression guilds.
Flying, while great to bypass physical barriers, shrunk the world and changed world PvP for the worse in my opinion.
Some classes really struggled in critical spots toward the end of the expansion. Blizzard was slow to change or fix these problems, and that resulted in classes being sat for better alternatives (Mages and HPals in Sunwell for example)
PvP meta was dominated by certain team comps. Mace Warrior/Druid in 2v2, RMP and RWD in 3v3, 4 DPS in 5v5 in s3, then Eurocomp in s4.
>>336072990
damn moar
>>336057645
Undoubtedly
>>336057645
TBC killed world PVP.
Dungeon finder.
Arena.
Killed most guilds with the switch from 40man to 25 raids, including my own.
In other words, TBC killed the coziness.
It made it all less fun, more work-like ( even high-end raiding, while obviously work-like by nature, was cozy compared to TBC )
I don't know, i guess you had to experience it first-hand to understand.
Whatever, it'll never come back.
>>336075758
People mention ilvl as being something that "ruined the game" a lot, but gearscore was always in the game, it was just only visible if you had an addon.
Item level just made it available in the default UI.
You know I'm not sure. TBC kind of started the whole lore rape thing, all of a sudden Illidan and Kael'thas were evil and hated each other and I never felt comfortable that Kael'thas said shit like "I never liked Illidan it was all a trick" when it didn't feel true to his character in WC3. It was all just excuses to make him a raid boss, the excuses that turned the lore into what it is.
>>336057764
TBC had the best raiding
>>336076820
>>336076908
As someone who played up till 5.2...MoP was a pretty good expansion. It's just not remembered fondly because it was sandwiched in between the two worst expansions and carried all of the things people hated from Cata with it.
>>336081127
It also didnt carry over the good things from Cata like harder dungeons
also quitting in 5.2? That was the single best patch this game had seen, tied with Sunwell
>>336080598
I thought Illidan and Kael was an alliance of opportunity.
They had a (initially) had a common enemy in the Burning Legion, but I never saw them as really buddy buddy.
Of course, that all ended when Kael'thas got hooked on the Fel and sided with Kil'jaeden.
>>336081221
All of my friends had left and I was struggling with the desire to keep going at that point.
I do want to go back before legion and catch up on all the rep I missed out on but I cant convince any of my old buds that it's worth it so I just stay away.
>>336081436
It's just odd that the guy who wanted to save Tyrande when she fell in the river became such a massive dick.
>>336058318
>ToC which still to this day is the worst raid released in the game
Dragon Soul says hello. At least ToC knew it was bland filler.
>>336082670
That really tore me up because I was waiting for the Deathwing fight for so long and expecting it to be glorious....
The actual encounter with him was fine but the "raid" was such a huge clusterfuck. We should have just met him in Grim Batol or something.
>>336083436
>the actual encounter for him was fine
>I AM DEATHWING
>THE DESTROYER
>THE END OF ALL THINGS
>I
>AM
>THE CATACLYSM
ebin
>>336083632
He was an insane force of nature at that point, I thought it was a fitting speech.
>>336083826
The Scout's a Force A Nature, Deathwing was just an insane blob of lava or some shit with metal plates on top of it
That and the "Cataclysm" if it goes off is just a fade to black
>>336083436
I just still can't believe that the fight against FUCKING DEATHWING wasn't an actual dragon-rules fight, just an awkward execution fight and then jumping between platforms hitting blobs. We spend the whole expansion with him razing the planet and being built up, and then in the final confrontation you don't get a direct battle against him or even a clear view.
Is it still impossible to enter Alliance territory as horde (and vice versa)? I remember people getting gangraped whenever they entered alliance towns
>>336084353
If you can make it past the guards nothing is stopping you. The only places where I know there are soul raping/impossible to kill guards are the lvl 1 starting areas.
I sneak into SW/IF as horde all the time.
>>336062142
>I'll never understand why people say that WotLK is the best
You realise people play WoW for more than just raids?
End game raids are always the most boring aspect of a new Expac IMO. Getting there is the fun part.Also PVP.
>>336084315
they didn't want to because deathwing was canon fuckhuge
>>336059770
Those literally were loot hallways, they were completely linear.
>Aside from BRD and LBRS name a dungeon in vanilla that wasn't also basically a fucking hallway
Stratholme
Blackrock Spire
Scholomance
Dire Maul
Maraudon
Sunken Temple
Wailing Caverns
Ulduman
And so forth.
>>336084758
I don't care, there's no excuse that justifies the only time you can attack the expansion's boss being punching his stationary chin while he dozes off.
>>336084981
You also get to chip several scales off of his back.
Don't forget that.
c*ck mods seem to be deleting threads related to wow legacy servers
>>336085149
The idea was you were dismantling his body since he was essentially molten hate held together by armor at that point.
>>336084981
If they made him a standard dragon the average toon would be about 10 feet below his face attacking nothing.
>>336084767
I'll give you that some of those had extra content but convincing a group to go that extra mile was impossible most of the time.....each dungeon was effectively linear unless you were with friends dicking off. I still enjoyed the places you call loot hallways though.
>>336085513
>I still enjoyed the places you call loot hallways though.
Nostalgia.
Once you remove anything interesting about level design, what are you left with? Boss mechanics? That's probably why you Blizzdrones wank over >muh raid mechanics so much
>>336084767
>instances full of unnecessary trash are preferable to instances with well designed encounters
this is what nostfags actually believe
Both Vanilla and BC have their merits, I'd say. I played WoW from early-ish in Vanilla (January 2005) to the beginning of Cata, so I think I have a fairly decent amount of data to draw conclusions from.
If I really had to pick which I preferred though, it would be Vanilla. There's a lot of tradeoffs between the two in terms of PvP, raiding, crafting, questing, etc, but by and large it always comes down to BC stuff being more restricted but more polished and complete compared to Vanilla. On those merits I could take either, frankly, and be happy. The one thing that tips it in Vanilla's favor for me, though, is the sheer amount there was to do. BC couldn't compare.
Now, looking at it on the surface, you might say that the amount of content between the two was fairly similar, especially at endgame. BC even had arguably more dungeons, if you want to count the heroics. However, while BC might win out in number of discreet dungeons/raids, each one was massively quicker and massively less... massive, for lack of a better term. You spent a lot less time in each, and had a much better chance of being able to finish what you started.
That really holds true for everything in BC compared to Vanilla. It all just took less time and effort. Things were broken up into much neater packets, and you didn't have to try as hard to succeed. Even questing, crafting, exploring, or other single-player activities suffered, largely due to the addition of flying.
Vanilla was just a lot better at the Massive part of the MMORPG format, and given their generally similar-but-different levels of quality elsewhere, that's kind of the deciding factor for me.
>>336085725
>Blizzdrones
Go shit up a nost thread please, your opinion no longer matters here.
Nostfags are literally Goobergate 2.0
Badge gear from heroics was nice but overall I think I prefer vanilla
flying mounts wasn't that great and dailies were a chore
Am I the only person who disliked BC the most?
I find the zones, quests and enemies all boring. I hate leveling 60-70. The only good part was Nagrand and the new zones for Blood Elves and Draenei.
>>336085791
No, instances that are atmospheric and interesting and complex and require commitment and actually immerse you in the feeling of adventure that you're supposed to have, that's preferable to "well designed encounters".
You're so blind to the possibilities that I bet you couldn't come up with a dungeon design that doesn't have any bosses at all.
>>336086025
>didn't like zangarmarsh
truly disgraceful
>>336085831
The only thing keeping me from enjoying vanilla fondly was the awful class balancing. If vanilla had launched with BCs classes and talent trees I would have liked it a lot more.
>>336085920
Dailies were preferably to farming 10 stacks of herbs each week.....at least I was working towards a new mount or some shit.
I can understand people not liking flying mounts (aside from the "it ruined muh pvp" argument) but from a fantasy perspective it felt badass riding some of the things I got.
Storm Peaks remains the single greatest zone ever.
>>336085513
>convincing a group to go that extra mile was impossible most of the time
wat? in vanilla there was always someone in your party that wanted some retarded boss and everyone was always SURE LET'S DO IT
>>336086091
i never cared for pvp. To me flying mounts was just an easier way to get from Hellfire to Shadowmoon.
you didn't really need it besides the obvious flying mount locations.
I never missed not being able to fly in vanilla or draenor (didn't play wotlk-mop)
Favorite 10-20 zone?
>>336085513
> If they made him a standard dragon the average toon would be about 10 feet below his face attacking nothing.
That's just like any other dragon fight but slightly more so, and it's still already an improvement. You literally don't get a clear view of him through the course of two encounters devoted exclusively to fighting him.
Or alternatively, don't make him a standard dragon, but yet at the same time don't make your hyped up ultimate destroyer final boss fight(s) exclusively about throwing fireballs at abstract lumps of flesh.
>>336086376
barrens if you mean by level?
Vanilla was amazing for exploration.
TBC was great for streamlining.
WotLK was great for pugging, but fucked the community in the process.
Cataclysm fucked the old world so everyone could fly, probably the one thing that the dev team parrots as you-think-you-do-but-you-don't in regards to what people want.
MoP had decent catch up mechanics.
Stopped playing after that.
>>336086420
agreed he also had a cool human form that was completed wasted
I don't understand why people think flying mounts were bad in TBC. You didn't get them till level 70 unless you were a druid. Who cares about helicopter questing. Your are already level 70. The only part I didn't like was you could get it for alts. I don't remember what patch added that. That's was the downfall.
>>336086091
>The only thing keeping me from enjoying vanilla fondly was the awful class balancing. If vanilla had launched with BCs classes and talent trees I would have liked it a lot more.
I didn't find the class balance in Vanilla to be a particular concern, myself. Mostly because Vanilla didn't promote one-on-one activities to any real extent. Other than solo questing, which was more a matter of putting in time than anything else, the smallest group that mattered was five. For PvP it was ten, even.
Honestly, if class balance had been a huge impediment to playing the game, I would have expected to see ten-stacks of warriors in WSG, and that never really happened. At least not that I saw.
What it comes down to, for me, was that the best groups (either for raiding or battlegrounds) were always fairly diverse class-wise, with player skill being valued more highly than having specific numbers of specific classes.
Hell, it might just be faulty memory (this was ten years ago, after all) but I remember a *lot* more complaints about class balance in BC than I do from Vanilla.
>>336086376
None. The only zone that was comfy in Vanilla was the Hinterlands.
I'm still sad the Sharpbeak quest was taken out. I loved the zone even more because of the quest. I'd go there everytime I'd level something new in BC because there would hardly be anyone else in the zone, so on a pvp server it was a real comfy experience going through the troll areas.
>>336086086
>instances that are atmospheric and interesting....
This is subjective. I found exploring the CoT dungeons and Mantid based ones in MoP especially interesting.
>>336086089
Zangarmarsh was comfy. I remember getting exalted with sporeggar for that pet...fun times.
>>336086159
I could never get people to do the postman in strat or Hakkar in ST unless I tricked them or was the tank...and god forbid if someone wanted something like the reliquary in BRD
>>336086315
I just really enjoyed the fantasy behind riding a dragon/nether ray/etc. Especially loved my helicopter and flying carpet on the guys who could make them.
>>336086376
Barrens for life
>>336086420
>abstract lumps of flesh
That's all he was at that point though. They go over how he's basically a throbbing ball of madness in a metal shell and the only way to conceivably fight him is to break him down. I know some people hate it but it did make sense.
>>336086581
I just hated how being a hybrid did not mean shit. If you had heals you healed and if you were a warrior you tanked...the end.
Fuck
That
>>336086376
>huh
>>336086376
Darkshore.
For PvP, Vanilla was better. Arena (and more specifically, Arena gear) essentially ruined PvP forever.
For PvE, TBC was better. The dungeons were about actual skill, rather than hours long zergfests with a zillion trash mobs and laughable bosses.
Actually, for that matter, TBC was basically the height of raiding for all of WoW. Only Ulduar can match it.
>>336086091
>I can understand people not liking flying mounts (aside from the "it ruined muh pvp" argument) but from a fantasy perspective it felt badass riding some of the things I got.
The issue with flying mounts was that flying was ultimately implemented very poorly. It basically amounted to no one ever seeing another person on the ground unless they were doing the EXACT same thing you were.
What they should have done was implemented them as a form of fast travel that dropped you off at predetermined flight paths so that you could get across areas quickly, but didn't reduce traveling to an empty mess of never seeing anyone.
>>336086581
The reason class balance wasn't an obvious issue in vanilla was because people were generally worse at the game.
Once people had easy access to all the theorycrafting, class balance because a more noticeable issue.
>>336086701
>I just hated how being a hybrid did not mean shit. If you had heals you healed and if you were a warrior you tanked...the end.
Maybe it was like that for some guilds, but I didn't really find that to be the case in Vanilla so much. Certainly tier gear only supported one playstyle (well... arguably. Let's not get into that right now), but there was generally more than enough gear that a hybrid could play more or less any role they had a spec for.
I remember quite well that on my guild's first Vael kill it was one of our ele shamans that survived after everyone else died, and scored the last hit before blowing up and dying. We also had boomkin, and quite a number of DPS warriors.
Maybe they wouldn't have been able to stay that way if we were a top-ranked guild trying to do Naxx (though I do recall some shadow priests in a Naxx guild I knew of...) but for doing just up to AQ40, we were able to run lots of hybrid classes in lots of specs.
>>336086701
>That's all he was at that point though. They go over how he's basically a throbbing ball of madness in a metal shell and the only way to conceivably fight him is to break him down.
Good point. If only Blizzard had some kind of control over his lore, then they'd have been able to write it so the final boss fight wasn't a massive anticlimax to an already dull raid in an already disappointing expansion.
I'm never going to understand why people think "but the writing means that it actually makes sense!" is a sensible argument. Of course it does, they fucking wrote it that way. It doesn't make it any better a product.
>tfw no Spellbreaker class for Blood elfs.
>instead we got gay ass paladins.
>no bloodmages with orb-based magic.
>they made bloodelves look like gaylords instead of actual magic addicts with pale skin and eyebags.
It love TBC , but it could´ve been so much more.
What did he mean by this?
>>336086854
There was this alliance feral druid on my server that held onto Grand Marshall throughout all of vanilla once he got it....he was in every fucking AB I ever joined. He had to be multiple people sharing the same account or something.
I forget his name but it was on daggerspine and from what I hear he held the record for longest Grand Marshall.
Another famous PVPer on my realm was a warrior in my guild named Alloraan who got shield slam nerfed into the ground during BC for destroying people in 3s with his prot build. I remember him shield slamming for 15 k or some shit. He had a bunch of interviews on MMO champion and other sites and eventually got the spec noticed so hard that it got gutted.
good times.
>>336087186
Or, hell, let us actually fight the throbbing ball of madness in the metal shell, rather than popping mobs that are apparently limbs until you get to pop his chin and then you win. It's not like we haven't had two good Old God encounters already, so go down that route - but let us actually SEE what we're fighting, and actually get to attack it and it fight back directly.
>>336087016
That would have made them essentially pointless. It was an all or nothing thing and some people were going to hate it. Nobody will ever agree here.
>>336087145
I wish I was in your guild then. We had one weird as progressive guild that had a shadow priest but barring that you were not raiding as a non healing hybrid on daggerspine in 2005.
>>336087186
He was fuckhuge before they made his cata model.
I guess I'll give you that they wrote themselves into that clusterfuck but I still would not have been satisfied if they handled him like a standard Nef/Ony dragon. If he had kept his body together and they somehow made the fight unique in its' own way I would have been fine with that too.
>>336087045
>Once people had easy access to all the theorycrafting, class balance because a more noticeable issue.
I'm not sure I agree with that. See, Vanilla was around for just over two years, and even right from the start there were plenty of tools to optimize how people played. The first UI mods came out before the game actually released, after all, and it's not like MMOs were a new thing at the time. People understood about theorycrafting for decades before WoW, after all.
Hell, I remember well over a year before BC came out people were already talking about DPS and threat limits, debating mechanics, and mathing out optimal gear. Remember the barman shanker, and all the uproar around rogue's AP normalization?
It wasn't a population issue either. Vanilla had over 5 million pop at one point, so it wasn't like there weren't enough people to find things out and understand the game, or code/design UI addons.
No, I think the real problem that brought class balance to fore was reducing the size of content. 10/25 person raids, and 2/5 person arenas magnified the differences between classes, and the removal of class-specific abilities as requirements - plus spreading around more buffs/debuffs/cleanses to various classes - meant that smaller differences in DPS or healing became more obvious, and affected the game more.
