>Everquest NEXT cancelled
What the fuck happened to the MMO genre?
These things were all the rage back in the 00s and I personally spent a years playing various games in this genre.
Did people just outgrow these games? Even WoW isn't able to retain users and in fact is actually hemorrhaging.
Blizzard's Titan was supposed to be their next big MMO but they cancelled that too like SOE recently canceled EQ Next
>not even /v/ cares about mmos anymore
Need a fresh approach, cheaper and quicker way to get it to customers.
it was vaperwave to get SOE sold to some bigger companies
>These things were all the rage back in the 00s and I personally spent a years playing various games in this genre
Because they were new and had really exciting worlds with dedicated fanbases.
>Did people just outgrow these games? Even WoW isn't able to retain users and in fact is actually hemorrhaging.
I wouldnt say outgrew GW2 is still doing very well. I also hear ESO and wildstar coming back. The only reason WoW cant retain its numbers is because nothing is really exciting anymore and people have been doing it so long that its just routine now.
>>335087316
Wow also burnt a lot of people from cata onwards. Also the people that play gw2 are most often normies or people who havent played any other mmo before.
Wait, what? Was it officially cancelled? So does this end AAA MMORPG launches for good?
Facebook became commonplace, and it does what MMOs did, in a more direct and efficient way.
everquest next didn't look very appealing but I'd love an mmo so i can spend my shitty hours venturing dangerous worlds and aiding allies in battle
Lack of innovation, need for heavy investments for high risk chance of commercial failure. Big publishers want some solid ground to stand on, but nothing different from the old model has been successful, and the old model is dying out.
It really is up to independent devs now to come up with the next big model.
Nobody ever tried to make a fucking WoW HD after WotLK. There were a couple that tried when WoW was still the best game ever, but after that they moved on to other stupid shit. GW2 was a fucking disaster, Wildstar was hot garbage and the new korean open world p2w shit sucks dick too.
genres fall and rise like anything else does, and an abundance in a market is basically people casting their hooks into the most popular pond
do you wonder why they don't make as many zombie games as they did circa 2006-2011?
>>335088213
Still, there is a lot that hasn't been tried when it comes to MMOs. The thing is everyone is afraid to try anything truly new. GW2 and the other "we'll change MMOs for good xD" games weren't really innovative aside of a handful gimmicks. People just can't see outside the box and are stuck with worn out concepts about everything in a MMORPG.
>>335087316
>Gw2
>Doing well
No it isnt you fuck.
>HoT
>Colin Left
>HoT legendaries cut for new cash shop shit
>PvP gets worse every patch
>S to the J to the W
HoT ruined anything fun about Gw2. Despite the butchered lore, imbalanced PvP, and shit dungeon design I still managed to have fun.
HoT hit and solo content was a thing of the past, leagues were a DISASTER with boting, mmr tanking, exploits, amber shopping and BUNKER META. Raids tore my guild apart and when anyone argued with one of the officers about using the metabattle builds he banned them and replaced them with Tumblr SJWs. Leaders were too beta to stop him.
I tried to play the quarterly update and looked at the "buffs" and "fixes" to my class and shook my head. Turned arund and watched Mesmers become fotm and oneshot players from stealth.
Gw2 is a runny asshole filled with cum and the only thing left are ESPATZ XD and fucking furry rpers.
>>335088465
The failed abortion that is left is a cash grab. Its all that matters to them. Colin was right to jump ship. Only one dev left from Guild Wars 1. Just one.
>They're skinner boxes
>They're giant time sinks, with no real world tangable benefit
>They require you to coordinate with 25-40 other spergs
>They're fotm as fuck, and prone to constant patches, nerfs and changes in the meta which is frustrating
>Sub fees
>Have to buy the newest expansion ever year
Honestly good riddance, fuck this genre
casuals happened and slowly killed the genre by removing all sense of challenge from them.
fast travel fucking everywhere from anywhere, gone are the days spending 2 hours getting a SM party together and spending another hour travelling across the fucking world just to reach the instance and hope your group doesnt disband along the way.
cant recall the last time a boss in an mmo was an actual challenge and not just either faceroll easy or some bullshit gearcheck
>>335088465
>S to the J to the W
Its literally one npc in lions arch no one gives a single fuck about stop being autistic.
> Raids tore my guild apart and when anyone argued with one of the officers about using the metabattle builds he banned them and replaced them with Tumblr SJWs
Sounds like you need to find a better guild that isnt retarded.
Now Ill agree with you on the pvp points but I never touch pvp unless im running a group or doing dailys. Also mesmers are flavor of the game since they can pretty much do everything well
>>335088465
IZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZY FUCKING CARTWRIGHT
NEVER HAS A MAN MORE TRIGGERED ME THAN THIS FAGGOT
>>335089016
>SJW
Look it over, the entire dev team is composed of tumblirinas. Do I need to remind you of Destiny's Rejects? Diversity.
>Better guild
I'd love a nice guild, but there are three types of guilds. People that will use me and not give back, upity RP guilds that will never RP with me and ignore any attempts for established cliques. Or some pvp guild that wont let me in unless I duel the leader a billion times wile he switches his thief build to counter mine after he dies the first five times.
MMOs have too much focused content at the end, forced dailies and shit like that. They should focus on being a bit more freeform, let people play the way they want instead of grinding dailies and raiding every week.
>>335090004
Pretty much this, MMOs died because there just isn't a since of community and freedom like there used to be.
Sure people killed each other and fucked up houses or whatever on occasion, but getting revenge and getting better each time made it fun, and the sense of constant danger forced pushed you to make friends.
Is Landmark dead too?
>>335085294
>What the fuck happened to the MMO genre?
Too casual.
>>335088771
All video games are skinner boxes.
>>335085294
>These things were all the rage back in the 00s and I personally spent a years playing various games in this genre.
>Did people just outgrow these games? Even WoW isn't able to retain users and in fact is actually hemorrhaging.
Back in the early day's of MMO's there wasn't much competition (relatively) and the market still had room to grow and innovate in many areas. Now the market is over saturated, and people lost trust when a lot of new MMO's came out and tried to be "WoW but BETTER!". Even when ripping off another product actually making a MMO is a huge development process. A lot can go wrong, and a MMO can tank just because one aspect doesn't "feel" right. Hell just balancing shit can be a nightmare, I don't think one MMO had had pvp and been perfectly balanced. Because of this MMO's are a huge risk investment wise.
Plus you got to understand that the market base is finite, video games has a huge market but you can only expect so much blood to be squeezed from the rock. F2P splintered the market even further. Now it seems releasing a subscription MMO is a death sentence. The only ones alive are WoW (because WoW, even thoughts falling too), FF14(because Final Fantasy, even then the launch was a disaster and had to be retooled), EVE (because it fills a niche no one wants/can fill).
>>335091126
Do you know what a skinner box actually is? Because most game's aren't skinner boxes.
>>335085294
It was cancelled because Sony liquidated SOE and sold the rights to some russian cashgrab chopshop
MMOs are dead as dead because WoW fucking murdered the genre. Everyone just wanted to copy the bigshot but no one wanted to admit that trying to copy them was a losing strategy. So no one will touch the genre because innovation is seen as poison and failing to innovate is actually poison.
They're dead, sorry.
>>335091704
Why dont you define it for me.
Go ahead and copy paste it.
>>335085294
You want to know why the MMO genre is dying/struggling?Because no one wants to fucking have to grind again. This turns me off from so many games, MMO or not, where I have to start out from the beginning and work my way towards the actual challenging content.
I don't want to spent the first 40 hours of the game playing easy-mode shit. I want to immediately start jumping into the challenging parts. Fuck leveling from 1 - 100 again and being forced to fight these useless quest trash mobs.
It's because these incompetent corporations don't know how to contain costs.
At it's height, WoW had 15 million subs giving 15 bux a month. Simple arithmetic had them grossing nearly A QUARTER OF A BILLION DOLLARS PER MONTH.
Where do you even put that kind of money? That's the budget for 3-5 complete AAA titles, EACH MONTH. And all they were really doing at the time was babysitting server farms.
>servers
>bandwidth
>maintenance
>administration
None of those, even for 15 million players, should have cost more than 15 million dollars per month. They were raking in 225 million in their heyday.
I think this is why there aren't more companies in MMOs. They don't know how to handle a large project and contain the costs. So each one can only get so big before the costs eat the project and even 1 million subscribers can't pay for it.
Look at all the failed MMOs of the past decade, many were no where near "empty" when they died. But the publishers pulled the plug anyway because they have no idea how to make enough profit to offset the costs.
>>335091756
>because innovation is seen as poison
Not really, it's just that mmos are the type of games with the most content. It takes much more time and ressources to make an mmo than any other games, which is why nobody want to risk something new and flopping.
I want to believe SOE really tried something with their faction systems, the AI, the destructible environment and the horizontal class progression but we'll never know. Because Sony and Columbia are fucking cunts.
So now all hope is lost. The only mmos we have to look forward to are Camelot unchained for the PvPers and Pantheon for some oldschool pve but both of those don't have enough money to be revolutionary so we're going to have to manage our expectations.
>>335085294
they aren't games. they are torture.
>>335088805
I will say BDO is still looking promising to me. No fast travel, can't comment on boss difficulty yet as I haven't reached that point yet. But the world is truly stunning and massive. But there are no dungeons. It still seems to work.
The mmo formula has gotten stale imo I get tired of leveling everytime just to get to the end and run the same things
Would it be so bad for an mmo to adopt monster hunter style of progression and maybe the way the gear affects your character, stacking one stat is boring and there is no diversity. I'm not saying implement the same combat as MH I just think leveling is outdated and it makes early areas useless at some point. Late crafting also needs to start using early gathering resources like iron for nails or bolts
Blizzard killed it like every other genre. Now they're aiming their crosshairs at FPS games.
Goodbye video game industry.
Every Dev makes them under the belief they can get 500k+ subs, so they inevitably die off. SE knows they don't need an immediate return on investment, so their MMOs do well.
>>335093430
I want to believe
>>335091962
literal trash opinion. People like you are the reason gaming in general is going to shit and you should honestly just off yourself with such a shitty mentality. Go play mafia wars or farmville on facebook if you're having difficulty you fucking casual
>>335085294
WoW ruined the genre. they should have stuck with the original EQ model or maybe UO, but fuck I still think someone will take the good qualities of these games and bring it back someday. I just hope the masses keep it alive
>>335085294
Just wait for Pantheon.
>>335095360
Wow that's one hell of an ignorant opinion coming straight from a guy who clearly can't count
The core audience changed from tabletop RPG fans who wanted a digital, online world to immerse themselves in to fucking Whales who just want to buy the best shit in the game and show off.
>>335095664
That's Pantheon for ya
>>335095619
He's right though my frogposting friend. Grinding was nice and innovative for the first few 50 MMOs, but doing the same retarded WoW-like leveling every single time is very off-putting
Of course, there's more than that to the decline of MMOs, but lack of creativity and WoW's design supremacy in the genre forcing new projects to revolve around it are major factors.
>>335095884
This. It also switched to people who just played WoW and didn't even realize it could be a RPG
>>335095884
Also its not just MMOs.
People whine about "story" in video games or "art" in video games, fuck the last 2 years we've seen more walking simulators trying to be "deep' but just come off as bad fanfiction, and worse is they're praised as being "innovative" despite offering absolutely nothing to the genre that monkey island didn't do in fucking 1990 because of its 'progressive story'
The industry is fucked, we're going to get more and more interactive movies, MMO's are going to become more skinnerbox, shooters are going to become either more COD like, or adopt more shitty "hero shooter" garbage.
And we're partially to blame, we've been bitching so much about graphics, that we forgot that the true innovation in video games is gameplay, better AI, more dynamic, evolving worlds, instead we ask for prettier cutscenes and less depth in our games.
And then of course you have fucking "game design" college courses which is feeding people garbage like the rhetoric that The Escapist's "Extra Credits" phone game developers spew.
>>335096536
nah that's complete bullshit
>>335085294
Also don't worry.
David Georgeson is doing his own thing now, which is good, smed was holding the company back, making battlefield 3 and dayZ clones
>>335085294
WoW went the casual route when they started doing expansions, and due to their tremendous success the rest of the genre followed their footsteps. By casual, I don't necessarily mean easy. I mean casual as in someone can just hop in for 30 minutes a day and get the "optimal" experience that the game offers. This simply doesn't work for the MMORPG genre, as the games are based on interaction with others (which doesn't work if players aren't on for more than an hour each day and also if they don't have to work together).
MMORPGs used to require great commitment even at the early levels which engaged players not only with the game, but also with the community. This was something that no other genre could really offer, as communities could usually only be formed on exterior websites. No commitment means no engagement, which means players move on to a game (or genre) that can provide a full experience.
>>335095884
This was a big factor. Unfortunately the genre requires big money to pull off, so if they see a way to rip people off even at the expense of the gameplay, they will go for it.
Western AAAs are officially out of new MMO releases, ans it's just a matter of time until the big MMOs die. It won't take long for Eastern companies to follow suit. The only upcoming releases are crowd-funded games that bring very unorthodox play styles that don't entirely resemble MMORPGs. They may or may not succeed.
MMOs as we know them are a very old fashioned genre. It relies on things like lack of information/lack of metagaming to be fun. As soon as people started decoding/datamining MMO content and mechanics, they lost their purpose.
>>335089596
I don't understand how the devs are all SJW's.
>>335097597
>replying to retards
Don't bother.
>>335085294
>Everquest NEXT got cancelled
>SOE is STILL selling Landmark on Steam
What a scummy company
>>335087973
This is really insightful. I had never thought of this before. It is interesting to imagine if the "social networks" started more substantially from gaming communities. Then again, Myspace was about music and that didn't transfer to more people networking with music... I think?
>>335097348
I don't know about Eastern companies, because I have no idea how successful they are. A lot of those games are only released in Asia.
>>335085294
MMOs as a genre kind of stopped advancing around the time WoW was released. There is tons of excuses used like technology and budget and what not, but at the end of the day it's just everyone trying to copy WoWs success.
The best thing for the MMO genre now is for it to just die. Maybe in a decade or so some new ideas and life will be pumped into the genre and we'll get good MMOs again. But I doubt it.
>>335088030
I think the problem isn't so much that nothing different from the old model has been successful. It's more like every attempt at trying something different just has not been different enough. Almost all the time it's some half assed attempt at either copying WoW, or making a notSand box, each time with it's own little, insignificant spin.
But a MMO that is actually different and new? Hasn't been such a thing in over a decade at the least.
>>335098867
Actually everything 'new' in MMOs is actually something thats been done to death in the past, but never really worked.
Ultima created the sandbox MMO, EQ created the exploration MMO, WOW refined the exploration of EQ by providing the game with a true, massive open world with no loading screens.
The thing is, MMOs have become static by design, if its a sandbox, it develops a rather bland metagame (see EVE) or it runs out of content too quickly (See WOW and its many clones)
The true next gen of MMOs is dynamic world content, monster driven ecosystems, player built and influenced cities, character building based on what the players have discovered or obtained through true adventures, not just grinding dungeons and mobs for drops.
>>335090004
Some problems I have with MMOs from a game perspective is that they focus too much on the destination and almost never on the journey. It's always about rushing to the end to get on some shitty gear treadmill, it's always about making your numbers bigger. It is never about just meeting some friends and going on fucking adventures without really caring about that kind of thing.
Another thing that triggers me is they're always designed and written to support a million simultaneous people playing at once. Because of this content in these games is always "go kill 10 wolves" or "collect 5 pigs asses", and by the end of the game it is "go run this dungeon once a day to have a chance at getting a new piece of gear".
It's never go on an adventure and do something fun and unique. MMOs are never written or designed like single player RPGs because they always have to have a billion players in mind so everything is simplified to the extreme.
These two things ruin the entire experience in my opinion. I can never feel invested in the games world or lore because it's designed first and foremost as a MMO and as an RPG dead last.
Don't even get me started on how bad gameplay is in MMOs because we all know if your average MMO was packaged and released as a single player game, that kind of gameplay would not fly and people would state it's absolute shit.
>>335099417
>it develops a rather bland metagame (see EVE)
I assume youve never touched EvE in your life right?
>>335099417
This going to sound crazy, but MMO developers should watch and read lots of those trapped in a MMO anime and manga.
It's pretty obvious most of them are written by people who have never played a MMO in their entire life. But if you as a player had to choose between playing a real MMO, or a MMO depicted in one of these anime/manga, you'd pick the one in the anime/manga every single time.
I fully understand some stuff wouldn't actually be possible to do, but I get the feeling a large part of why MMOs are shit is lazy developers who're looking to make a quick and easy cash cow, not because it's actually technologically impossible.
>>335099791
>>335086994
>vaporwave
>>335099627
EVE's metagame is very bland when it comes to the player sandbox.
From a social aspect its brilliant, from a mechanical, gameplay element, its fucking blobs.
>>335100014
I didnt ask you if you knew things I already know.
I asked you if you have even played the game or you are just spouting the same old eve memes that go around these parts?
>its fucking blobs.
Not necessarily.
>EVE's metagame
Which one of all the possible metagames are you talking about? Considering that its the only current sandbox in the market.
>>335097348
This is a good thing. MMO's need to die before they're able to be reborn, and naturally progress the way they were meant to. MMO's should be niche and plentiful, with small yet devoted communities carrying them forward. WoW's success is what made everyone believe that having 100 million players is the way to go, but that's honestly the same cancerous mindset that's lead to the genre's downfall.
In other words, an MMO with a Nostralus sized community should be the new standard. 2-3k concurrent players across 1 server (With multiple instances,obviously.) is all you need. This way, you can have as many MMOs as you need to fill out various niches, without them being 300 million dollar investments. This is what MMOs need to become.
>>335099923
I remember reading Legendary Moonlight Sculptor a while back. Fairly early into it, the main character discovers an entirely new fucking continent floating in the sky. No one has seen it before. He discovers new quests, equipment, classes, dungeons, monsters and so on.
Anyway, one of these dungeons is really long, really hard and totally unexplored so he has to make a map for it himself. He spends days exploring just this one dungeon. It has traps, puzzles, secret passage ways and everything, and he doesn't manage to explore it all (due to class restrictions).
When I play a real MMO however, dungeons are either exp or gear runs. Almost always they're a single path with nothing to explore, no puzzles, no traps and just a few predetermined encounters and bosses with some kind of mechanic that once you learn removes any challenge from the boss.
This is why MMOs are shit. There is no effort, attention to detail or just plain love put into making them anymore.
But the real insulting thing is, even though MMOs have these shitty ass dungeons that took no time or effort to make, the newest $60 expansion which has been in development for a year has 2-3 of these tiny ass dungeons and maybe 1-2 more will be released before the end of the next expansion.
How fucking lazy can developers be?
>>335099791
No, fuck off. You shouldn't have to spend very long to think about why this is a terrible idea. The vast majority of MMOs presented in this genrewhich is killing animehave massive red flags right off the bat. A lot of their functions only work because they're presented like they do in the story with no regard for practical application. Log Horizon's probably the only one I read that seriously considered the interaction of mechanics and players in game.
Shit like that series about the dude who ditches combat stats to level nothing but crafters wouldn't be any enjoyable in practice. The game would have massive server issues and need to be centralized to even remotely work because of the massive reliance players will have on each other in order to optimize anything.
Sword Art Online's design would either devolve into pay to win, have progression and ladders determined largely by the ridiculous RNG factor in unlocks, or become casualized shortly after launch in order to appeal to all the players it's oozing.
Overlord's a complete mess where nothing actually seems to operate on consistent rules. The MMO background there is even worse than SAO, in that it at least in SAO they make an attempt to use the setting, in Overlord it's just a background for the ridiculous wish-fulfillment story.
>>335095619
Fuck off dumb frogposter. No one has time to grind to 99 WC in runescape anymore
>>335100589
Imagine if every dungeon in a MMO was designed like a Metroid or Castlevania game, and not like a short pathway to a boss.
>>335100854
>datamining
The algorithmically shortest path would be on the wiki within the day, fampai.
>>335088465
> last night I had a dream I was playing guild wars 2
>it was the real guild wars 2, the one we all wanted, the one we waited 6 years for
>I woke up
>>335100787
>MMOs should adapt to my schedule
>In turn casualizing the entire genre
How about you kill yourself instead?
>>335088018
>emergent AI and storybricks didn't look appealing
AI in today's games are so whack and unappealing I don't even play singleplayer anymore. I try, but I always quit really early and go back to MP.
>>335100965
I remember those dreams I had prior to its release.
Shit was so fucking good until I ended waking up.
I preordered that shit and, when the day came, played the shit out of it.
The good feels didnt last...
>>335100726
I'm not saying they should straight up try to copy these anime/manga. I'm saying they should take inspiration from them and see things in a different light. Maybe even copy some of the more basic features.
I remember in Legendary Moonlight Sculptor, the first person to find a dungeon can opt to have his name added as the person who discovered said dungeon. In another instance, an entire race and class are only unlocked after a huge event takes place that includes the entire server.
Things like this are entirely possible, but never happen.
They jumped the shark.
Suddenly everyone and everything had to have an MMO. With so many failures so quick, publishers and developers just fucked off.
>>335101019
>grinding isn't casualshit when every AAA game and mobage is filled with grind shit
>actually challenging enemies and deep/complex combat isn't what makes a game good and not casual
The problem with MMOs is they focus on the grind rather than making a complex world that requires tact and teamwork to overcome.
>>335101114
I was in denial for like a week after gw2 came out
I kept waiting to unlock some more weapon skills and then I found out I was stuck with the ones they gave me
Buildwars was the best part of the game
>>335100951
Shortest path to what?
Remember, it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. Maybe at certain times you'll visit this dungeon due to quests you've received, but why would you need a shortest path?
This is the problem. You're still thinking of these dungeons as typical MMO instance dungeons with a few predefined encounters and a boss at the end which people do for an exp or loot run. I never said anything like that though. I just said imagine if every dungeon in a MMO was designed like a Metroid or Castlevania game.
I'm glad they had their time. I'm glad their time is over.
No, the genre is shit and the focus is max level now which completely destroys the point of the RPG aspect of an mmorpg.
There's no reason to wander into the world because you're given your checklist of shit to do once you hit max level, its not something you can work on while leveling, and the two are completely separate games now.
The reason old MMOs were good was because it was just wandering, slowly upgrading your gear, and killing monsters to earn exp to slowly work to a level cap, but it didnt take you out of the world because there were still threats that you needed to fight at max level.
If the devs would get over themselves, make leveling a minimal thing to your character power, and let you fucking do shit aside from a pre-determined quest structure, you'd find mmos are plenty alive. Sadly the only time you find shit like that nowadays is on a phone game like KHUx.
tl;dr level cap content being 99% of the game kills the mmo genre
>>335101450
MMORPGs aren't really RPGs anymore. They're MMOs. They need to be less MMO and more RPG.
>>335100221
>>335100014
Well since you are still in the thread and didnt bother to respond.
No, its not just blobs.
And its obvious that if you played the game you didnt play it for very long if thats your opinion on a few of the well known big fleet battles.
Same old memey assumptions on par with ''Le eve is nothing but le spreadsheets in space XD!''.
Typical vee.
The best MMO I've played in years was Initium
And all it is is a faggy browser mostly text based game but damnit, it was fun
>>335100726
>dissing Overlord
Shut your whore mouth
>>335101384
Thats why EQN was exiciting, the content was to be dynamic.
Orc King ZugZug spawns once in a while, creates a big stink in an area, and you can join a group to kill him and get some loot and maybe unlock class abilities on the way, it wasn't going to be a "grind this boss/dungeon" game, but it was going to have a dynamic monster ecosystem that changes based on player activity
>Orcs are invading X zone
>players stop the orcs, and they stop invading other zones
>or players don't stop orcs, and they keep invading other zones
I mean, the dream was probably too big, but its what the MMORPG needed, a sort of AI game master that seeds the world with new content.
>>335101316
>Please adapt the game to my needs and remove any type of grinding so my ADHD brain and rejoice on all of this instant gratification
>>335085294
Wow got all the attention and the devs killed the game.
Why would anyone be interested after they had their moments of glory then slowly declined into shit to the point where they don't want to play again?
Why would they play another mmo when they know it's dying soon because of how hard blizzard fucked the market?
Maybe a resurgence in 10 years if wow dies soon.
>>335101330
I just wanted to experience the so called WvW pvp, conquer castles and lay siege on that Big ass keep in the middle of the map.
Never did.
Never even came close to it since the realm started to empty up.
Out of the way. Greatest wasted potential coming through
>>335101384
That would be fucking garbage for a party. People would all want to go different ways and having to backtrack would lead to even more arguments. Randoms would just go online and find the best route and vote out anyone who didn't follow them.
Metroid works because it's a single complex map that takes an entire playthrough to discover. Having a single dungeon trying to mimic that in 20-50 minutes would be terrible. You can play and discover Metroid at your own pace, even if it's only 15 minutes per session, but dungeons in MMOs require you to finish everything before you can quit or you'll piss off a lot of people and won't get a completion.
>>335101886
It was, but smed needed his smedbuck fueled battlefield clone.
>>335101750
Although this sort of stuff is cool and keeps the game alive for longer, there are more basic problems that need fixing first.
For example, if the average dungeon in a game looks like this, no amount of dynamic content can save it.
>>335100726
>Overlord's a complete mess where nothing actually seems to operate on consistent rules
anime-only faggots need not apply
>>335101886
I dont know what the fuck they did to this game.
At launch I could run it in a toaster and had lots of fun.
Today it runs like shit.
Quit it when I realized it was the same pointless shit over and over. Heavily p2w.
How is it these days if you still play it? Still stale?
First week after release was glorious.
>>335101758
>challenge = instant gratification
grinding is instant gratification, you are rollfacing and constantly progressing. If there is a difficult dungeon or boss that you can't beat or a complex puzzle you can't figure out you aren't progressing shit.
>>335102007
But dungeons, more specifically, instances, are part of the problem.
>>335101913
Again. Your problem is your preconceived notions of what a MMO dungeon should be like.
Why should a dungeon be a 20-50 minute run with a party of people?
Why should you be forced to finish everything in the dungeon?
Why is it an instance?
Why shouldn't you be able to play and explore in the dungeon at your own pace?
>>335101853
WvW was fun in the beta when nobody knew what they were doing but now it's just one zerg attacking another zerg and following around a dorito
>>335101886
I like PS2. What's wrong with it?
>>335102085
>Heavily p2w
how
>>335102181
Pretty much this.
Dungeons should look like this, but each of the areas should have dynamic, ever changing aspects to it, one day you kill a dragon in an area, next day its being looted by lowly goblins who heard about the dragons death, or a smaller dragon moves in and offers rewards for slaying a rival monster elsewhere in the place.
Dungeon content doesn't have to be balls to the walls pull CC, clear speed grind fests, they can be their own little worlds as well.
>>335102096
Sure, but a dungeon designed like that, whether it's instanced or not is not excusable. It's lazy as fuck and nothing can save a design that lazy and half assed.
If all of the areas in a game have this kind of lazy design, you've just got nothing to work with. You need a well designed world and a solid foundation to work with before you try to implement any kind of dynamic content delivery systems.
Everquest Next was always going to be shit anyway, just another MMO that made a huge fucking deal about a single gimmick it came up with. That has never been a good sign for a game.
>>335102378
Every gun, attachment to vehicles, it took ages to unlock.
It became impossible to do well because of that.
>>335102181
>Why should a dungeon be a 20-50 minute run with a party of people?
because people wouldn't play it if it's too long and there is no point in having a solo MMO.
<Why should you be forced to finish everything in the dungeon?
If you were making a Metroid style dungeon there would be a bunch of roadblocks that require you to explore different routes before you unlock.
>Why is it an instance?
It doesn't have to be an instance, but quitting mid dungeon and leaving your party behind ends up with the same consequences
>Why shouldn't you be able to play and explore in the dungeon at your own pace?
Because you're playing with a party of people. If you can find a bunch of turtle so be it, but dungeons would end up like raids were a few elite circlejerk and everyone else won't even try.
If you're making a dungeon based around single player play, go play a fucking single player game like Metriod. The problem with MMOs is that they don't promote the multiplayer and community aspect enough. Everything is singleplayer shit.
>>335095884
On one side im kinda pissed the casuals and whales ruined my favorite online genre but on the other hand im making some good extra income selling currency in game thats easy as fuck to get because they are to lazy and rich to bother with it.
Just jump ship and play a genre you never normally play. For instance im playing faggot as weeb games on my Vita and im having a ball.
>>335102373
many things, but objectively speaking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6fmaB5T-jA
MMORPG's that look good :
>Camelot Unchained
>Crowfall
>Pantheon
>Chronicles of Elyria
>Darkfall: Rise of Agon
>>335102523
Attachments for vehicles can't be bought and guns are side grades of the default. This is one of the least P2W f2p game there is.
>>335102523
git gud faggo
I feel like people just fucking forgot how to make a good game. Like there's an issue with making decisions somewhere along the line. Not everything has to have a 10m playerbase, and not every decision has to be loved by players (looking at you, Firefall).
I don't know what the tits happened. Probably money.
>>335085294
Modern MMOs are about whack-a-mole queuing, instead of actually creating an online society with all its abuses and innovation.
>>335095516
Was that the one that they said could run on "almost" anything even a toaster?
Going for the old-school everquest vibe
>>335095884
I've always said instead of trying to cater to the PvE or PvP audiences or failing to cater to both. Make a game for RPfags. Second Life still has players despite being utter garbage and Space Station 13 is still being played like fourteen years later.
>>335102631
The problem is you're thinking in terms of the industry standard of MMO dungeons set by blizzard, which is an instanced grind
Dungeons don't need to be focused around clear speed grinding, all they need to be is challenging enough that you want to bring multiple players.
Dungeons should be a long term gameplay thing, not a speedrun, it should be something you explore and delve with other players, like the classic D&D experience, yeah, if someone has to leave that sucks, but because the modern MMO is focused around having premade groups of 5/10/20 or so players doesn't mean that you can't have good dungeon content that has a more flexible group size.
>>335102181
>Why should a dungeon be a 20-50 minute run with a party of people?
Because if they were doable without anyone else's help, then most people would just do them on their own, removing the need for a social aspect in the game. At that point, you might as well just play a single-player RPG.
>Why should you be forced to finish everything in the dungeon?
In the case of WoW, you're not. you're free to leave any time you want. All it means is that you don't get loot from the bosses later in the dungeon.
>Why is it an instance?
Because having the dungeon constantly be empty due to 20 or more people farming the same boss would kinda suck ass.
>Why shouldn't you be able to play and explore in the dungeon at your own pace?
Mainly because most of the other people that group up for dungeons are there for grinding purposes or to hit a specific boss for loot. If you're playing an GPR where the monsters are too difficult to tackle solo, then you're pretty much moving at the pace of the party.
>>335085294
MMOs are on the way out unfortunately. The grind and long amount of hours needed to progress is not attractive anymore. This doesn't mean there wont be a revival of the genre though (Which I think will very likely happen after WoW dies in X amount of years)
>>335103045
well second life is alive cause the game is literally what you make of it. you can be a walking penis that shoots lasers if you really want to
>>335102631
>because people wouldn't play it if it's too long and there is no point in having a solo MMO.
Why wouldn't people play it if it's too long? Maybe with the current shitty design that is true, but if it's well designed? Maybe people will keep coming back to it because it's fun to explore and always offers them something and it's just a stepping stone to the next tier of dungeon.
And who says it has to be done solo or in a group? Maybe it's easier to do in a group, and a group would open up new options to explore (like a thief unlocking doors and disarming traps), but maybe a skilled player could do it solo (player skill is also something most MMOs lack). Man, the dungeon might not even require much in the way of combat, it could all be exploration and solving puzzles and shit.
>If you were making a Metroid style dungeon there would be a bunch of roadblocks that require you to explore different routes before you unlock.
Doesn't mean you have to do it in one run. You could explore a bit at a time and come back to explore more later. Maybe new updates could expand dungeons and add newly discovered areas for players to explore.
>It doesn't have to be an instance, but quitting mid dungeon and leaving your party behind ends up with the same consequences
Nothing stopping you from meeting new players in the middle of a dungeon. Nothing requiring a party either.
>Because you're playing with a party of people. If you can find a bunch of turtle so be it, but dungeons would end up like raids were a few elite circlejerk and everyone else won't even try.
Maybe I'm playing solo. Maybe I'm enjoying exploring the dungeon. Maybe it's not a fucking race to see who can 100% complete it.
Maybe the problem here isn't that this idea isn't good, but it's that players have been brainwashed by years of stuff like WoW.
>>335102692
So Crowfall is a meme MMO trying to capitalize on Game of Thrones Success?
That's dumb.
>>335103146
Good luck convincing a playerbase that. Having a dungeon being long for the sake of being long is horrible level design. You can't stop the community from speedrunning and choosing the quickest route possible because that's what they're about. Creating a shit dungeon is just going to cause the community to fight and get angry.
>Dungeons don't need to be focused around clear
Then people wouldn't go into the the dungeon or everyone would quit halfway when they got whatever they wanted. Metroid is built around progression and the addiction of getting to the next step, it isn't a game people play to goof off in.
AVGD here
I've been playing with the idea of making a dungeon crawler thats more darksouls esque.
Except instead of invasions, each area of the game has a server list and when players pass a threshhold they get seeded into one of the servers, any other players who happened to be rolled into the same server instance just happens to be in the same area, and PVP would be enabled, but i'd make the monsters in the area really fucking hard.
Just want to see what people would do, ya know?
>>335103736
>Then people wouldn't go into the the dungeon or everyone would quit halfway when they got whatever they wanted.
And what is wrong with this?
Do MMO players have no sense of adventure at all? Have they gotten so use to quest markers and pointers that without these they just cannot play a game? Can they not fathom a game without these quest markers and pointers telling them what to do?
Why do some people go and climb mountains? Because the mountain is there, and they fucking can.
>>335103626
yea pretty much, could be cool to get a good guild and run the server
>>335085294
Because it was bought by some Russian company that holds oil rigs at gunpoint and wanted another money-sink to embezzle their ill-gotten money.
MMOs as a whole are dying because nobody wants to MM the ORPG, thus people get bored of the gameplay because they aren't engaging themselves into the communities.
Too many devs cater to the wooby crybabies who are scared of nasty internet trolls that can trigger their sensitive sensibilities by being in their party and communicating with them, and it chokes the life of the game making it a boring theme park you have all to yourself where all the kiosks are run by computers or robots on timers.
>>335103736
I don't need to convince anyone of that if you create dynamic dungeons and seed it with good gear, people will do it.
Try playing a proper roguelike, or join a D&D group that plays homebrews, dynamic content is the best possible future for the genre, we've seen what happens if you create static content, people do data mine it and they do speed run it for gear, but people are jaded of that experience, its why WOW's raiding scene, despite being mechanically better then ever before, is practically dead.
MMO's need an overhaul, linear dungeon grinds are one of the core problems with the genre currently.
>>335102503
Misinformed/ignorant: the post
>>335103238
>Why wouldn't people play it if it's too long?
Because it's common fact people hate long as fuck levels. It's been this way for decades.
You're saying all this shit, but you clearly have no idea of how to actually make it. You and Peter Molyneux should bunk up together.
>Maybe it's not a fucking race to see who can 100% complete it.
Oh it certainly is if it isn't instanced. People will bully the fuck out of you if you take too long.
>Maybe
>Maybe
>Maybe
You have no idea on how you're going to make your dungeon while making sure the community plays it the way(s) you intended and doesn't break the shit out of it or ignores it all together.
>>335103989
We do for the first time we go through. Then the magic is kinda ruined when we have to trudge back through the damn place another 10 times to get the 3 bits of gear we were after.
>>335103029
Yeah, they already streamed it a month or so ago, it looked promising. I just hope they have enough money to make enough content.
They said they were going to give a starting area for each race, which is already a big deal for me.
>>335103989
>Do MMO players have no sense of adventure at all?
The whole industry is like this. People aren't going to explore something unless they think it's worth something.
>>335104131
Go play No Man's Sky and convince /v/ that it's worth their money.
>>335104302
This is just plain wrong. People have spent countless hours climbing mountains in skyrim or minecraft for nothing
>>335104137
Translation: WoW is the only correct way to do MMOs.
I'll say it again. MMOs need less MMO and more RPG. Y'all niggas need to go play some Dungeons and Dragons.
>>335104259
Go explore another area of the dungeon then, or maybe go to another dungeon. Or maybe get use to the fact that you are not obliged to get the gear you want and the purpose of these dungeons is not for you to grind a new piece of gear, it's a bonus you might get for taking the time to actually play the damned game instead of racing to the end.
>>335104131
Metriod and Castlevania aren't dynamic at all
Which one is it? Metriod or procedurally generated?
>>335104532
Metroid and Castlevania are just examples of level design done well (usually). They're usually large, expansive maps which require exploration, have multiple objectives and require you to unlock new tools to progress to different areas.
I could have just as easily used the older Zelda game worlds as an example of good level design MMOs should learn from.
>>335104489
>Translation: WoW is the only correct way to do MMOs.
No, I don't even like WoW, I just think you're trying to take something that can be written on the fly and place it into code for millions of strangers to completely break and ruin.
>should be less MMO and more RPG
Then make a fucking RPG with co-op and PVP. Dark Souls does this perfectly fine.
>>335104680
>I could have just as easily used the older Zelda game worlds as an example of good level design MMOs should learn from.
Zelda designs wouldn't work in a MMO. You would have one guy figuring everything out and spoiling it for everyone by either leaving everything ransacked if it's open world or telling everyone how to unlock it (and any of it's "dynamic" alternates).
>>335104532
I wasn't talking metroid or castlevania.
I was talking the dynamic content EQN was trying to achieve.
>>335104532
He means maps on the scale of metroid and CV but with the randomness of diablo 2s dungeons.
>>335104887
>Zelda designs wouldn't work in a MMO. You would have one guy figuring everything out and spoiling it for everyone by either leaving everything ransacked if it's open world or telling everyone how to unlock it (and any of it's "dynamic" alternates).
Datamining and wikis will always be a problem. Doesn't mean your map design should look like this >>335102007
MMOs will never be good again until developers actually start putting effort into the development of the game. Maps like the one in that post clearly have no effort put into them.
You guys are taking this shit way to literally. I was trying to say MMOs need to take dungeon design lessons from Metroid or Castlevania, not MMOs should copy these kinds of games exactly.
Developers need to put effort into making MMOs again. Metroid and Castlevania maps have effort put into the development of them, which is why I used them as examples.
>>335104489
>"other area of the dungeon"
Nigga you seen dungeons nowadays? Its all linear corridors. Sometimes there's a fork but you're going to go down both paths anyway because you have to pop a boss at each end to open the door to the next. There's also a limited number of dungeon, especially when a player's level is taken into consideration. Like I said earlier, if you're playing an MMO, your individual needs or wants don't mean shit in a dungeon. 9 times out of 10, a player is going to be in there on their umpteenth run for a bit of gear and if you lag behind because you're "exploring" the best case scenario is that you get left behind. If you're in a healing or tanking role or are pulling enemies then you're usually kicked from the group.
This kinda shit is why I stopped playing MMOs. Because your only two real options for the game were grinding or PvP.
>>335104887
>Dark Souls does this perfectly fine.
Except for the part where you're forced into PVP that you want no part of .
>>335085294
So many people tried to come out with a "WoW killer" that it ran the entire genre into the ground.
>>335105421
>WOW dungeons are the only dungeons ever and because people just do WOW dungeons that maens that is how all dugneons should ever been in an online game
>>335105530
You can play offline.
>>335105315
Datamining can be partially prevented by randomizing content inside of a dungeon.
It's not hard to have mobs spawns randomized, and even bosses randomly selected from a pool that changes like every day or two. Maybe there is an event in the dungeon every week that determined what enemies and bosses spawn.
Stuff like traps can be placed randomly too.
Treasure and loot is easy to place randomly.
You could randomize things like locked doors and key placement.
Hell, depending on the type of puzzles, it's not hard to randomize the solution to them too.
It's not a 100% foolproof solution to datamining, but randomizing aspects of a dungeon can heavily reduce how much people rely on wikis and shit.
>>335102475
ohh
that irregular part really stands out compared to the blocky 90% part of that map
>>335105530
>I haven't played Dark Souls at all
>>335105789
Another thing you can do is instead of using instanced dungeons, you can partially instance dungeons.
When you enter a room with a puzzle, you can have players seamlessly enter a unique instance they have to solve independent of everyone else. Likewise, when it's time to fight a boss, you can seamlessly have them enter their own instance for this boss.
I've seen this done in shitty Korean MMOs with shoestring budgets. It is entirely possible to do this kind of thing.
>>335105710
Kinda hard to do co-op offline unless they added split-screen.
>>335104489
>Y'all niggas need to go play some Dungeons and Dragons.
This. Especially when you're GM has had a few and feels like randomly generating a dungeon room by room, regardless of how little sense it makes to go through a trap door in the floor, to climb a ladder UP into the belly of a whale.
>>335106086
The question then becomes "Why bother?" Why bother instancing the 'important' parts of the dungeon instead of the whole thing?
>>335105789
>Datamining can be partially prevented by randomizing content inside of a dungeon
>but randomizing aspects of a dungeon can heavily reduce how much people rely on wikis and shit.
it doesnt work that way though
look up darkest dungeon's wiki
everything might be randomized by all the data involving the events is still written in there
you need to have randomized modifiers on your monsters if you want to kill off the "wiki data"
like how instead of
>Jailer Soulcrusher - Fire immune
next instance you meet him hes gonna be
>Jailer Soulcrusher - Lightning immune
>>335105530
heavens forbid you have to interact with other players that can choose to be hostile
>>335085294
all the money any mmo makes doesn't go back into the mmo. wheres does it go?
