So, I was reading game design stuff, like books and articles.
And then I came across this game, from jason rorher.
I was amazed by it, some people claimed it made them cry.
Independenly if you're not a faggot who cry over hipster pixel art, or if the game is bad.
I want to ask.
Do you think it would be possible to make a 5-10 minutes game that is deeper and more emotionally fullfilling that some long ass movie game like many AAA shit?
I dunno, but that game has made me think a lot of things about videogames.
No. Indie pixelshit garbage needs to stop.
>>333379904
>2007 game
bro, this was before the term pixelshit was invented.
try again.
>>333379964
Who cares, it still looks like shit.
Plus it has pixel "art".
Hence, pixelshit.
>>333380037
check out the guy who never went to college here lol
If passage is "deep" and "moving" I'm a fairy
http://www.kongregate.com/games/raitendo/passage-in-10-seconds
>>333380541
>I didn't feel nothing therefore nobody else could have feel nothing
you're autistic, that's why you lack empathy.
some people feel empathy over cartoons or over a photo of a empty baby shoe in a factory.
>>333380663
There's nothing to feel. The "game" offers nothing. It's pretentious trash.
Why do these little free games offend /v/ so much?
>>333382814
there's dozens of such anecdotes over the internet.
if you look at the youtube comments, you'll see dozens of people saying they were moved by the game.
maybe you're too autistic to feel anything.
>>333379816
I remember having to play this game for one of my gamedev classes in college. What a load of shit.
>>333382937
This one in particular is held up as an example of artistic achievement in the medium.
http://www.moma.org/explore/inside_out/2012/11/29/video-games-14-in-the-collection-for-starters/
Also see: OP
He came across the game reading about game design.
>>333382958
Youtube comments don't make a game deep, or less pretentious.
>>333383356
I didn't claimed the game was deep or good.
I just claimed the game was interesting from a game design perspective.
>>333383124For sale: baby shoes, never worn.
Does this trigger you too?
>>333383406
>game design perspective.
There's barely any game in Passage. It's just like a video, with the play button mapped to the left key.
I'm not saying that short games can't have emotional weight, what I'm saying is that if you want to use gameplay as a narrative element you just can't reduce it to the point there's almost none and call it a day.
>>333383445
>trigger
If by that you mean it "triggers" me to call it, and anyone who think that's something exceptional or meaningful, stupid, then sure.
It doesn't particularly upset me or anything. I just call you a retard and move on with my life.
>>333383608
To the right key, I meant
>>333382937
They lost the ability to feel anything but rage.
>>333383608
I didn't claimed it was GOOD dumbass.
It's just an original take over giving a narrative meaning to the gameplay mechanics.
Are u too dumb to understand a metaphor?
>>333383406
What's interesting about the game design?
>>333383635
But you are actually upset, enough to be swearing at me online for asking a couple of questions.
We've got people ITT denying that Passage has ever inspired an emotion in anyone, there must be an explanation for such a staggering level of autism.
>>333383847
every element in the game contains a narrative element.
It's literally the point of the game.
>>333383695
>It's just an original take over giving a narrative meaning to the gameplay mechanics.
Again, if to do that you have to make your gameplay almost non-existent, you aren't really doing anything of note.
Passage could be a youtube video, or an animated gif and lose almost nothing in the process.
>>333379816
a game you can play in 10 seconds only "moves" retards and pretentious hipster shits
you cant get effectively emotionally invested in a game that short. there's not enough time to get invested in the characters or the story at all. you can forget you played it at all within a day.
>>333383870
People saying it isn't deep aren't denying that it has ever inspired an emotion in anyone, what the fuck are you smoking.
>>333383930
What's the point of everything that isn't going right, such as the blocks you have to weave through, or going left?
What's the point of the ugly compressed graphics on the far right?
Explain it to me without sounding like a faggot, if you would.
>>333384016
See;
>>333382814
>There's nothing to feel.
Perhaps read the thread you're posting in eh?
>>333384009
Hey now, 10 minutes is fine. The beginning of Up manages to be emotional.
The problem here isn't time, but minimalism. It's hard to be invested in almost literally nothing.
>>333383635
You realize that art is meant to be thought provoking. It doesn't have to have great gameplay or amazing graphics.
Have you ever set foot in a major art gallery or modern art museum in your life, philistine?
>>333383954
>>333383954
>>333384009
It doesn't matter.
It's interesting because it was decades ago, before even braid.
It's interesting because at that time wasn't many examples of games being art, and most people though games were simply dumb entertainment.
That was a time that faggot lawyer who wanted to ban violent games because of the bible was still a topic.
If you were following games back then, indie games didn't existed yet.
It's interesting because all the elements in the game, from gameplay mechanics to the score system, to the level layout, to the items you get.
All that works together cohesively to give a narrative, an emerging narrative made of the gameplay.
The game was basically made in a jam about a shitty meme resolution, that's why it looks like retro shit.
It was more like a proof of concept that games could be more than simply digital toys.
Jesus, is /v/ filled with underages?
>>333384178
You need to work on your reading comprehension if you think that Anon has claimed that nobody has ever felt anything about passage.
>>333383930
It's a game of life
You can travel alone or travel with another person, It might be harder to travel with another person, and you can't get to certain places.
The graphics to the right is the life in front of you. At the beginning you have your whole life in front of you, and as you approach it, it comes into detail, while your past fades away behind you.
Then before you know it, you're at the end of your life, and are old, and then you die.
>>333384271
>All that works together cohesively to give a narrative, an emerging narrative made of the gameplay.
There's no gameplay. This is false.
>>333379816
Yes, ermetism is a thing. If some genius of poetry had the knowledge to make vidya maybe you could see said masterpiece.
>>333384332
What part of "There's nothing to feel" implies that people felt emotions inspired by the game to you?
You're fucking retarded, Passage has one very small and simple metaphor, and you either can't figure it out or you're angry it's not some grand epic like your japanese animes.
>>333384385
walking is a gameplay mechanic.
you have literally today an entire genre where you can only walk.
>>333384271
>indie games didn't existed yet.
what is super columbine RPG?
>a proof of concept that games could be more than simply digital toys.
no, there were games way before that which accomplished this and more. people just didn't pay attention to the bigger picture because other games were longer than 10 minutes and took more work to create dynamic characters, great narratives, and immersive worlds.WITHOUT sacrificing gameplay.
>>333384271
>It's interesting because it was decades ago
Wrong.
>It's interesting because at that time wasn't many examples of games being art
What sort of definition of art are you using where little to nothing previous was art?
>If you were following games back then, indie games didn't existed yet.
Wrong.
>It's interesting because all the elements in the game, from gameplay mechanics to the score system, to the level layout, to the items you get.
?
>It was more like a proof of concept that games could be more than simply digital toys.
So I take it if there is too much gameplay a video game cannot be art in your opinion?
Why? What is this based on?
>>333384525
And many people don't consider those games, but interactive fiction.
Not OP, but I was moved by this game.
It made me think about life.
It's sad.I'm not a gay.
>>333379816
Played this one a few years back. Very good. Full of metaphor despite its simplicity. Was moved.
Alright listen here, the point of story in games is to invest you in a way no other medium can do, yeah? To make you feel like YOU made the choices, and they you're the main character experiencing all the ups and downs of the game. Like your play has meaning and like you can change things, just like the MC might feel about their current situation.
When you play a fast paced action game and you feel the tension of the gameplay like the MC would and feel relief when you see the characters in the game are still safe and that you aren't under attack, then feel like you fucked up when a character dies, that's a good story that's weaved into the gameplay. When you play a Dragon Quest game and get the feeling of an adventure as you search the world looking for clues and getting stronger all the while, that's good narrative melded with the gameplay, despite the story being just "a demon lord is fuckin shit up, get em".
If you could turn the game into a gif or a video and lose nothing, I think it's failed as a game, because the gameplay failed to carry any weight in how you feel about the narrative. Anyone else agree?
>>333384616
And those people are pointlessly splitting hairs to make themselves 'objectively correct' about their opinion, it's a meaingless distinction.
>>333384271
>It doesn't matter
Yes it matters you retard, if the game doesn't achieve something that other mediums can't, then there's nothing revolutionary about the game you made, as the other anon said this shit could have been a .gif, being a game didn't add anything.
If you want actual examples of games achieving something artistic other mediums couldn't check stuff like Ico, an experience like that could never be told with a book or a movie without being absolute crap, unironically even Undertale pushes the medium forward with its 4th wall breaking mechanics you could never see in a book.
Look at the never ending story, that kind of story would be perfect for a VR video game, while in its current book and movie form it still lacks something because the medium can't break the 4th wall without having the character of Bastian that acts as the player.
>>333384485
I get Passage's methaphor. It's simple, cheap, and lazy.
Also it does a bad job of joining narrative and gameplay, since it sacrifices gameplay, so it's a bad example of "games can be art".
Also anime a shit, but thanks for the ad hominem.
>>333379816
Wasn't that game just a walking simulator?
Can't remember doing anything else than walking from left to the right
>>333384780
>Anyone else agree?
I would, if it wasn't possible to lose your partner in the game by exploring narrow spaces. Granted Passage is so simple that there's literally no point in exploring, but that's still a change you can affect.
>>333384530
>>333384583
you seem too clever.
Games back then was though as some shitty artistic medium that only manchild enjoyed.
Sure, you had your final fantasy.
but for the average people, games were simply violent shit like GTA and Doom.
They weren't considered art because there wasn't a game that was beyond what in film is the average comercial shit.
Games were basically consider the equivalent of transformers but interactive.
>>333384637
yeah, I also felt sad when I realized the guy was getting older.
For some people that's something important.
I'm just 27 but I think about getting older a lot of times.
>>333384810
>it's a bad example of "games can be art".
Who still gives a shit about that debate? Games ARE art, they have been since Tennis for Two was made.
You've just got a stick up your arse because it's not deep moving or pretty, and you think art has to be one of those things to qualify as art.
>>333384783
It's not. "Game" and "Videogame" are clearly defined term and most walking simulators don fit in those definitions.
P.S: I like walking simulators
>>333384803
>>333384810
>missing the point
It was for a jam dumbass.
do you know what is a jam?
>>333384827
I think it can be called that way.
>>333384967
You are getting it wrong.
The problem I have with passage is the "game" part, not the "art" one.
>>333384876
I wasn't speaking to just this, but sure, that's an interesting gameplay thing they did.
I still don't think the game as a whole succeeds at this because of how little you connect with the characters. When I play a balls to the walls action game and my negra jumps in and bashes shit in with me and helps me slay shit left and right, I connect with them because they just lent a HUGE hand. I connected with them in a way that no other medium can provide, because they did something to help ME.
There's so many things a game can do for narrative and story telling but ALL of them rely on your gameplay. You can't shy away from it or make it shitty so that a player doesn't want to engage.
>>333384978
>are clearly defined term
Is that why /v/ can never, ever agree on a definition for it?
There's plenty of games that fail such definitions anyway, it's an arbitrary distinction.
>>333385039
Do you want a hand with those goalposts, or are they ok where you've shifted them to?
these niggas are still too dumb to understand it was a jam game.
LOL
>>333385128
What goalpost moving?
I clearly stated:
>it does a bad job of joining narrative and gameplay, since it sacrifices gameplay, so it's a bad example of "games can be art".
Again, talking about the "game" aspects.
>>333385235
>>333384993
How does that disregard the fact of was anons said? Now you're being the "lol troled u" guy, pathetic.
>>333385297
>it sacrifices gameplay
It barely has any gameplay, how the fuck can it sacrifice gameplay when there's so little of it?
It's a great example of why games are art, because it's very small and simple, which makes it easy to understand if you're not a /v/tard.
>>333385352
you can't do too much if you have only a few hours to make something.
you're asking the same results in a few hours than other games that took months and years to be made.
>>333385449
>It barely has any gameplay, how the fuck can it sacrifice gameplay when there's so little of it?
Is this a legitimate question?
>>333384879
>making games """"""""""art"""""""" also casualizes them
well that just proves it's a detriment then
>>333385449
>It barely has any gameplay
Exactly.
That's why it's a poor example of a videogame achieving the art status, if the story in the "game" would feel the same on something like a book or video then the game part didn't matter at all, thus why it's a poor example.
Even generic FPS do this better, letting you experience action movies with you as the protagonist.
ITT: Dev trying to get his dick sucked on /v/eddit, but gets shit on instead
>>333385520
And? Results are results, OP talked about it globally, he never asked our opinion including the "considering the fact that...".
I don't care if you had to code it while fighting lions, if the result is shit it's shit.
>>333385567
>>333385696
>>333385706
>/v/ expects AAA quality from a jam
have you ever tried to make a game?
>>333385567
Not exactly, Etrian Odyssey is designed to make your autism engine fly in the world of fantasy but casuals complain all day about the difficulty.
>>333385531
Yes, what gameplay was 'sacrificed' to make the game?
>>333385696
>it's a simple game that communicates a simple metaphor through simple gameplay
>therefore it's an awful example of videogames as art, because reasons
Please explain your opinion, what's wrong with simple art with simple meanings?
>>333385845
dude just fuck off, that's not a legitimate point and never will be
>>333385696
>Even generic FPS do this better, letting you experience action movies with you as the protagonist.
>Action movies are high art
>Action
>Movies
>>333385845
What the fuck does the fact that it came from a jam has to do with anything discussed here?
We're talking about Passage being a good example of games being art or not, not discussing the quality of devjam games.
Anon, please.
>>333385839
because you're asking for something that wouldn't be possible in the context of the game.
The dev can't into art I think and had to deal with the theme of the jam, which was to make a 255x255 resolution game.
All that in a few hours.
You seem triggered because it tried to be some artistic shit.
>>333385991
We could be talking about gameplay mechanics that are narrative, but you seem butthurt over a shitty jam game.
>>333385845
>Make a pie in 5 minutes
>It's crap
>Ask for an opinion to a stranger
>It tells me it's crap
FUCKING ENTITLED RETARD IT'S A JAM. A JAM.
>>333385979
>Yes, what gameplay was 'sacrificed' to make the game?
Everything? It's not "simple" gameplay it's almost zero gameplay.
"Press button to progress" is not gameplay, otherwise Netflix would be a videogame.
>>333386028
>Independenly if you're not a faggot who cry over hipster pixel art, or if the game is bad.
Not even OP claimed it was good, dumbass.
I've never seeing nobody in this thread saying it was good.
>>333386094
nobody has ever said it was even a good game dumbass.
It's simply original.
>>333385979
>Please explain your opinion, what's wrong with simple art with simple meanings?
Please quote the part where I said that.
>>333385449
No its not art.
Look at blizzard and all other companys. They ajust and change to gain maximum profit.
You do this with products not with art.
Art is not adjustet. Not made to be bought. Its just to exist.
You chose it. Not its made so you chose it.
The days of art are over. Its just factory products thrown out in your face. Made in massive offices where coder next to coder is stackt. Keept alive by sugar and antibiotics repeating the same retardet tasks day by day.
Every asset reused and so on.
No anon. Its not arty any more. Just a cash grab.
>>333386148
>Remove gameplay from game
>"Original"
Also, at the time there were fucking tons of "games" like that at flash sites like newgrounds and the like.
Original my ass.
>>333386140
Please look up what the word "sacrifice" means, and try again.
>>333386169
Are you really this uncertain of your opinion, that you have to split hairs like this to try and 'win' the discussion?
>it barely has any gameplay
>exactly...
Herpaderp, what could you possibly have meant other than saying the gameplay is very basic?
>>333386194
>Its not arty any more. Just a cash grab.
Yeah, that's why Passage was so expensive at release, and never got a sale.
Plus all that fucking DLC, those jews!
I love when OP gets rationally fucking told and he just covers his ears to not listen while spewing bullshit because he doesn't want to abandon his views.
I'm just glad we're just talking about video games in an anonymous imageboard instead of discussing physics.
>>333386430
Well I'm almost done, trying to think down to the level of these mouthbreathers is tiresome.
>>333386364
Its not specificly aimd at your 'art' thingy.
The big ones anon, blizzard, bioware, betseda and so one.
What your indi guy will become stands in the stars. But games are no art. Not any more.
>>333386554
If you think things stop being art when they're made for money, you must have a really weird perspective of art.
I was more amazed playing Ms. Pac-Man.
>simple narrative amidst fun gameplay
>still lets you know a lot about the characters and their motives
>>333386430
there is some autists getting simply butthurt because some people find the game to be appealing.
He can't understand (I guess because he has autism) that some people enjoyed it.
OP didn't even claimed it was good, nobody here has ever claimed it was good, but he seems butthurt over some inexistent praise.
I think he may be autistic.
We could be talking about narrative gameplay mechanics instead.
>>333386660
You make art to create and money comes as a side effect.
You make art to earn money its no art but just a product.
>>333386747
>OP
Man, if you're going to try to pull that "not me" bullshit, at least change your IP
>>333386737
Eat
Fuck
Scared of ghosts
Like a mirror of the real world. Timles. A classic.
>>333379816
Indie is the worst cancer that ever plagued videogames industry.
>>333386809
nobody here has claimed the game was fun or even good bro.
Passage has no gameplay so it does nothing to prove videogames can be art.
Games can be art, little, simple games can be art. Passage can be art, and I'd say it is. What it isn't is a game.
>>333386773
So why is it that art made for money is still so highly prized by the 'art world'?
Could it be that the intentions behind the art are irrelevant, and you're just lusting after some romatic ideal of artistic motivation?
>>333386909
This; I think passage is far too simplistic to actually communicate it's metaphor in an evocative manner.
It's still a great example of videogames as art if you want to write a pretentious article, most of /v/ would waste time trying to explain every little thing in The Line like they're Vaati.
>>333386909
I did,
It's a good / deep game.
>>333387169
I think it comes from an era I'm sure /v/ can't even remember.
I remember watching the super columbine massacre rpg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yGu_31R9bc
you need to remember that was the time when this game came out.
>>333387314
I also think is a beautiful game, It even made me shit a tear.
>>333387470
>you need to remember that was the time when this game came out.
What the fuck does the time it came out have to do with anything?
>>333387657
>context is irrelevant
holy shit, is like arguing with a high schooler.
Jason Rorher is really fucking creative. I was obsessed with his work a little while ago. Great game designer.
>>333387764
>i'm incapable of elaborating on my point
Yeah, you're right.
>>333388008
yeah, he's also one of my main inspirations and idols.
>>333388249
I literally told you everything you need to know about the game.
you seem to be really focus on the game is shit to not even understand that for some people the game has values they see on it.
You seem butthurt people can enjoy things like modern art.
>>333388339
>You seem butthurt people can enjoy things like modern art.
I was having a discussion with someone who seemed to think that you couldn't make art with the intention of getting paid for it. I pointed out how absurd that is and you started trying to tell me about the context of when Passage was made.
Either explain what the fuck you were trying to say or don't bother, stop pretending you're clever just because you've failed to communicate effectively.
>>333388517
we're more than one anon you were arguing with it.
there's more than one anon telling you they enjoyed the game.
I'm not the one that posted that painting.
>>333388857
I posted the fucking painting.
What the fuck does this shit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yGu_31R9bc have to do with how well Passage communicates it's gameplay or the integrity of art produced for profit?
>>333389189
>does this shit
It was the historical context when the game was released.
>comunicates it's gameplay
It really does a nice job of making a metaphor.
>integrity of art produced for profit
not my point, it was another anon who was arguing this.
This game is pretentious in its shitty symbolism where it implies that nothing in life matters, okay thanks for that lesson guys.
>>333389352
>It was the historical context when the game was released.
Why is that relevant at all? It has no bearing on the content of the game in the slightest, if you're trying to say that it does and I'm missing the point, you're going to have to do more than just dance around the point.
>>333389620
because that irrelevant contexts is what make it relevant.
if it was released today noone would give a shit.
>>333389805
You think people don't still have gamejams?
You're too ignorant to be having this discussion.
>>333390289
yeah, let's ignore the thing that makes this game relevant.
are u still in high school?
I just told you if that game were made today, it would be nothing.
>>333379816
5-10 minutes can be okay. The opening sequence of Up is pretty much that.
>>333390406
It would be precisely as relevant if it were released tomorrow, what you're talking about is it's notoriety.
Like I said, you're too ignorant to be having this discussion, you don't even seem to understand the words you're using.
Hot damn this is one hell of a lame thread.
I'll probably watch a longplay of the game on YouTube though.
>>333390608
>words
have you ever though I'm not a native english speaker?
>>333379904
Sorry for not having money to meet your standards of fps killer graphics
>>333391051
Well that's a fine excuse for not knowing what words mean, doesn't really help you get your point across when you waffle on about irrelevant bullshit though does it?
>>333380037
underage faggot go back to COD the grownups are talking
>>333391249
you seem pretty fixated on proving the game isn't good when nobody has ever said the game is good.
>>333392193
I'm not trying to prove anything to you, this is /v/, I know you're all incapable of changing your opinions without an e-celeb telling you to.
I think Passage is a nice and simple example of how games can be art, I also think it's rather mediocre. That doesn't alter the fact that you've been talking complete shite about "You need to understand the era it's from to really get it maaaan" and misunderstanding everything you reply to.
>>333379816
I suppose it's possible, honestly i'm more interested in howe games tell stories through their mechanics rather than narrative "peices" like chracters or worlds, those have a place, clearly, but games that tell stories through their mechanics, i think will be the major "point" in using the medium for artistic expression.
>>333392547
So, a game like Passage, that communicates most of it's meaning through it's mechanics?
>>333392452
you're clearly butthurt over the game.
>>333392547
yeah, passage was one of the first attempts at doing that.
Think of something like how chess represents medieval war.
>>333392689
Honestly i think Passage's mechanics are too light to tell any story, it's obvious that not being able to go backwards it's supposed to give some message about not staying into the past but the mechanics other than that translate into very simple walking, like if you stripped Passage of any cultural touchstones taht we understand (People, environments) what does passage feel like? What is the emotional response given by the gameplay, like think about chess, think about how methodical chess's gameplay is and think about how that relates to the message of empathy with generals is.
>>333393001
>umad
Why don't you pretend like you're trolling me too, so you can slink away and pretend you've 'won' the thread?
Because you've clearly run out of anything to say about Passage.
>>333393217
It doesn't tell any story at all really, it's just a series of mechanics to communicate a metaphor about aging and partnership, and the second one is really undermined by the fact that there's zero reason to explore so you'll never leave your partner behind generally anyway.
I think it does a reasonable job of making you think about the nature of time, memory and picturing the future. It just doesn't really have anything to say or suggest about those things, which leaves the message a little flat.
>>333393227
Why are u still even argueing?
What do you want to prove?
That the game is shit?
I already told you nobody is claiming the game is a masterpiece.
>Do you think it would be possible to make a 5-10 minutes game that is deeper and more emotionally fullfilling that some long ass movie game like many AAA shit?
Sure, why not?
>>333379904
Imagine you're a game company and your pixelshit garbage sells very well. Would you stop?
>>333393753
Did I say the game was shit?
Stop replying you ignoramus, you don't understand most of what you're reading or saying judging by your replies.
>>333393923
I literally told you stop arguing if you're not gonna post something worthy dumbass.
stop posting.
>>333394359
I'm not arguing, I'm calling you ignorant.
>>333394447
are u going to post something related to what OP was asking?
>>333384780
i agree but i think AAA cutscene stories are fine
>>333394615
I posted loads of it, you started waffling on about 'context' and 'relevance'. When I attempted to engage you on these points, it transpired that you didn't understand what either of those words meant, and you were also incapable of elaborating on what point you were trying to make. Then I started calling you an ignorant idiot.
Don't you remember, do you have amnesia too?
>>333394857
so you weren't the same faggot who claimed nobody could ever felt emotion from it?
cool.
>indie games not a thing back then
Nigga, did you forget all the freeware games that used to be released those days? Did you forget all the flashgames on Newgrounds, Kongregate, MiniClip, and Armor Games with similar shit like this?
Do you not remember Cave Story?>Cave Story released in 2004.
>>333395031
Hey!
You're smarter than I gave you credit for!
>>333395045
Holy fuck, has it really been twelve years?
>>333395261Yes. Kill me, please.
Why are we judging the value of games as art by their narratives?
Isn't that sort of missing the point of the medium?
Like, imagine if you judged the artistic value of a film entirely by the compositional quality of its score, ignoring things like the cinematography and editing and so on.
>>333395691
because chess is bettter than the fag of us.
;)
>>333395691
Because /v/ knows nothing about art, 75% of them think art has to be pretty or deep.
Most of them think bad art isn't art anymore!
>>333395031
>so you weren't the same faggot who claimed nobody could ever felt emotion from it?
Faggot here. I never said that. What I said is "there's nothing to feel". This is an opinion. My opinion.
If I had intended to say that no one felt emotion playing Passage, I would have said that no one felt emotion playing Passage.
And please don't be one of those faggots that says "b-but, you didn't clearly denote your opinion for me with 'well, in my personal opinion..."
RayForce is art.
