What's the best tactical RPG and why?
how many other games gave u this much PTSD
>>332508446
Tactics Ogre because the gameplay is better
Devil Summoner: Overclocked because it has a badass branching story and good and well polished gameplay.
I always preferred Tactics Ogre , but then again, that's probably because I got into that 100% pure GOAT Ogre Battle 64 as a kid and have been chasing that high since.
>>332508489
It's a very simple battle. Only retardsor childrenhave trouble with it.
>>332508698
>wasnt a child when FFT came out
are you 40?
>>332508750
No, I've just replayed the game since the late 90's, faggot.
>>332508446
If you ever played this game you'd know exactly why.
How do you differentiate between turn-based RPGs that incorporate grid movement and ones that have no movement (like the early FF games)? Is there a term to distinguish them?
>>332509369
>RPG
Laptop guy has no stats
>>332509603
With grid based movement it's a tactical RPG. For the latter it really depends on the genre if it's just a vanilla RPG or if it's a dungeon crawler.
>>332508698
It's still a massive difficulty spike compared to the rest of the game, comes with no warning and can end your game if you don't have the right skills, and isn't really seen before or after in a similar 1v1 scenario.
It's easy to just roll dual-fist monk and steamroll him turn 1, but the fact it can ruin your game entirely if you rolled Ramza as a Priest alone makes it a shit fight
>>332509768
>Nethack and Pokemon Mystery Dungeon are in the same genre as FFT and Fire Emblem
>>332509369
Its good, but the best? Oh come on.
>>332509369
>max RNG to the finish
>quicksave/quickload the game
only war and gun autists love it for the guns not the terribad and awful gameplay
>>332508489
The true difficulty of that fight is the save option directly before it.
With that fight, you can either beat it or you can't. If you can't beat it, if you mathematically cannot win under any circumstance, your whole save file is fucked; and I hope you made a back up that's not too far behind.
The fight itself is easily dealt with; the first part against Wiegraf is especially easy for anyone who knows how to abuse 1v1 fights. The bullman's cock raped me for than a few times before I worked out how to clear that fight.
>>332509901
They're not because they're not turn based.
>>332508698
>he made his Ramza a mage/chemist and saved after the first part of the battle (right before this map)
You're not too smart, are you?
>>332510012
The fuck are you even talking about? Learn to aim.
>>332510012
Weak bait.
>>332509369
Has anyone played the 1.13? If so, can you tell me the differences between it and the original?
I've only playedBack in Actionand it was just... okay. Not good at all.
>>332510309
1.13 is almost completely different from the base game and can be customized to a ridiculous degree.
>>332510240
Have you ever played either of them, you paint sniffing dogfucker?
>>332510240
>Nethack
>not turn based
jagged alliance 2
>>332510249
This falls into the "retard" category. Only the dumbest of the dumb overwrite their only save in a chain of battles.
>>332509768
I don't agree with you. Tactics is the execution of a battle, strategy is the execution of a war... it doesn't matter if the battle execution is turn-based, real-time, grid-based, hex-based, or freeform. The emphasis should always be on whether you're resolving one battle at a time, without dipping into the greater umbrella of the war-machine.
This disqualifies Total War and Starcraft, because you aren't worrying about a single battle per se. You're using battles as stepping stones to win the overarching war. This means decoys, this means supply trains, this means building an economy to support that supply train, and so forth. FFT, Tactics Ogre, Fire Emblem, and so forth don't have that, so they're more appropriately called tactics games. Since they're grid-based, just call them grid-based tactics.
You can make a tactical RPG with movement radii and it'd still work if the stats are consistently. I'm not much of a tabletop guy but I've seen some Star Wars tabletop game where you get a ruler with a notch on it to determine the movement range of your ship, and it's got facing and all that. That's just as much of a tactics game as FFT or the rest are.
>>332509603
See above, "turn-based" and "grid-based" and so forth should always be adjectives layered on top of the core term, tactics.SRPG is also a dumb term, it doesn't mean strategy RPG. The Japanese used it for "simulation RPG," not strategy. So long as you're not on /tg/ you should say TRPG
>>332510416
Have you? Roguelikes use a YMIM (You Move I Move) system instead of turn based. If it was turn based then after each step or move you take you'd have to wait for each enemy to take their turn, individually, based on their speed stats, and if someone had high enough speed they'd be able to take more than one turn before you get the chance to.
Take a loot at a game halled Superhot. It's a FPS where time stops when you stop moving. That's how Roguelikes work. Would you call that turn based?
But by all means keep crying like a child who is having problems comprehending things that are beyond him.
>>332510609
>and if someone had high enough speed they'd be able to take more than one turn before you get the chance to.
This actually happens.
>>332510345
I guess I'll play 1.13 first. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to play the original and then see how 1.13 is different
>>332510603
You do realize in videogames "tactical" = you fight with the units you put in at the start of the battle and "strategy" = you have a base and build units, right?
>>332510603
>I don't agree with you
Disagree all you want, that's just the name of the sub-genre. I don't particularly agree with it either since games like FFT don't really have much in the way of real tactics like, say, X-COM, but that's what the genre is called.
>>332510676
>>332510603
Forgot to add: For example, the TW games are turn-based strategy and real-time tactics
>>332510609
>if someone had high enough speed they'd be able to take more than one turn before you get the chance to.
Happens in Nethack, Pokemon/Chocobo/ect Mystery Dungeon, Tales of Maj'Eyal, and many others
Are you seriously trying to say that rougelikes aren't turn based because the animations for turns are optimized?
>>332510803
Binding of Isaac isn't turn-based!
>>332510676
>"tactical" = you fight with the units you put in at the start of the battle
Yes, that's one component.
No, that's not a sufficient condition. If you compare FF4 to FFT, it's like comparing a bunch of redcoats lining up and getting slaughtered vs. the Mongolian invasion of China. There's no level of tactics apparent in FF4 despite going in only with your squad.
Movement and maneuvering is definitely a requirement for a tactics game, but the type of movement (grid-based, circle radius, etc.) isn't as strict as >>332509768 would like you to believe
It's just that there haven't been any good circle-radius tactical RPGs. I think Sting tried to do a couple? The PS2/PSP eras were weird and produced a bunch of shitty unpolished games in the genre
>>332510651
It does but it's not tied to statistics, it's just a trait given to particular monsters. In Crawl, for example, there is no stat that determines your speed. Similarly in NetHack dexterity does not determine the order of which you partake in turns.
>>332510518
I'm glad you went into the game with omniscience, you dumb nigger. What I said has absolutely nothing to do with your post because a new player does not know it's a battle chain. They don't know it's a 1v1. They don't know that Ramza sucks balls in that fight unless you have Monk/Lancer/Samurai/Ninja leveled up. The only way you would know on your first playthrough would be...
>he plays with GameFAQs open
Please leave /v/
>>332510862
>There's no level of tactics apparent in FF4 despite going in only with your squad.
The fuck am I reading here? FF4 is one of the most tactically involving FF games, even in its original form and not in the DS remake. Tactics can be bulldozed with tons of broken as fuck builds that render any semblance of tactics pointless because you blow the entire battlefield up in a single move.
>>332510741
Yes, that's because strategy games dwarf tactics games. Almost all strategy games have a very elaborate tactical mechanic but no tactics games include elaborate strategic mechanics.
It's like an umbrella of scope
>>332510891
Honestly, it's really easy. If you wanted to see what a Roguelike would look like if it was a Turn Based game then go play Fallout, put on combat mode and try walking around town and waiting around as the other NPCs perform their turns, individually, based on their speed stats, before you get your own turn. Roguelikes aren't any different than the Infinity Engine games, if they'd pause each time you took a step or performed an action.
>>332510935
Yes I'm sure
>watch when the boss flashes
is a "tactic"
>ftt is a gud tictacs rpg
>spam shout on a corner then instagib a boss
>>332509837
By keeping multiple saves before chain battles, you can just do some random battles and level up Ramza as anything you want in an hour or so.
You can also exploit Wiegraf's short range with a Ninja Ramza and take him out in one turn without a scratch on you. The second phrase is also incredibly easy by just doing the following:
>have your Ninja Ramza fight Wiegraf up in the rightmost corner of the map
>have a White Mage queue up Raise/Arise on Ramza
>with a Ninja Ramza, he will always get his turn before Wiegraf, and the healer will always have his turn after both, i.e Ramza always takes the heat from Wiegraf's attacks, and if he dies, he will wake up to act before Wiegraf again
>have the rest of your party keep the minions occupied on the lower half. simply spamming potions and hi-potions is enough if you don't have the firepower to kill them
>>332510925
No, you dumb fuck. The game has given you plenty of chain battles up until that point, and it doesn't offer to save after each normal battle. The game literally tells you there's an upcoming fight, and if you didn't have short term memory, you'd know that indicates some tough as balls battles that could potentially ruin your save by overwriting it.
How do you even manage to dress yourselves in the morning? I'm legitimately asking.
>>332510981
I don't understand what you're on about
Rise of Nations for example has a Risk-like world map
Then you have the battles, some of which are strategy (because you build a base) and some of which are tactics (because you only go in with units you get at the beginning)
That's the entire difference between the two terms as they apply to vidya
>>332508698
I was a kid when it happened to me, yes. Still, it taught me to save games in alterating save slots, because I was always expecting such a thing to happen again.
>>332511029
That's more tactically involving than "press CT X, Holy" and annihilate the entire fucking battlefield.
>>332510073
Depends on how much grinding you did before that point too.
>>332511169
I learned that from the Cúchulainn battle. Saved over my only save, didn't have any sleep protection rings and ended up having to use that engineer long-ranged character and a monk Ramza and nothing else.
>>332511105
>Then you have the battles, some of which are strategy (because you build a base) and some of which are tactics (because you only go in with units you get at the beginning)
You just defeated your own argument with Total War then
Yes, you go into TW's battlefields with a set number of units. But how are they produced?
By your provincial war machine, which is a strategy game. You maintain supplies to host an army. The number of soldiers you can dedicate to a fight is determined by your war machine and your strategic placement of the troops on the overworld. This is the main game. That's why I said strategy games are an umbrella over tactics, because war > battle in scope.
This is why, like you said, all base-building games (like RTS) are strategy games and not tactics games. It doesn't matter if your base is on the map or not. If there's any base -at all-, it's upgraded to a strategy game, just like Total War. You can win as many battles as you want in Total War, but if an enemy conquers your capital and undefended cities you've lost the war (and the game).
>>332511342
Bro I already said TW is turn-based strategy (the overmap) and real-time tactics (the battles)
>>332511103
>The game has given you plenty of chain battles up until that point,
I don't know why he's even arguing with you because it's clear you don't remember the game. There's 1, Queklain. And you get your entire party to fight against him.
If the game continued that theme against Wiegraf there'd be no problem because any weaknesses you have in your protagonist can be offset by other members in your party who are more ideal to fight Wiegraf.
This is a squad-building game, not a Ramza-building game.
>>332510852
I know you're baiting but holy shit this is ridiculous
>people seriously saying Rouge Legacy, Risk of Rain, Binding of Issac, FTL, Darkest Dungeon, and Nethack belong in the same genre
>>332511494
>not a Ramza-building game
Literally the most important character in your squad. At the end of the day, the Wiegraf battle is *only* hard because people are incredibly stupid and don't keep multiple saves.
>>332509369
It's good, I cannot argue against this. But not perfect.
>>332511396
It's not two genres at once. Are you even listening to me?
There's this thing called war
war is composed of battles
there are plenty of times in humanity's history where battles have been triggered without wars, like quashed rebellions for instance
the moment you step into a war, you're not fighting a battle, you're fighting a collection of battles
there's no such thing as a "strategy-tactics" game because the moment you start using your tactics to achieve overall strategic goals, you're fighting a war, not playing a tactics game.
if you don't agree with this statement, you surely don't disagree with Call of Duty being called both a "FPS" and "RPG" side by side equally even though all of the RPG elements are minor and subservient to the main goal of the game (FPS)?
>>332511508
Is that really so wrong though? Yes, there's a ridiculous difference in depth but the same is true for, say, Civilization and Aurora
That doesn't change the fact that both are 4X games
>ummm would i like to overwrite my save in this difficult game without knowing whats ahead
nah mang i got this
damm son this gave me ptsd
>>332511619
If you're bringing real-life war definitions into this you're already an idiot because the difference between tactics and strategy is murky as fuck in modern war
Either way, I don't give a fuck what you think, the stuff I said is the accepted definition
Have fun impotently raging against it
>>332510891
have you ever played ToME
FFT > Ogre Tactics > FFTA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Disgaea > other NIS titles >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agarest
>>332511624
Of course it's wrong you franken faced fuckfurter
They're completely different genres alltogether. Risk of Rain and Rouge Legacy are action platformers, but rougelikes are turn-based, grid-styled RPGs.
Calling Rouge Legacy a Rougelike because of procedural generation and permadeath is like saying Halo 4 and Mario 64 are in the same genre because they;re both games you run about in a 3d environment in with buttons to jump
To go by your example, it'd be like caling Civ V an RPG because you can level up your units
>>332511608
>because people are incredibly stupid
Yes people are incredibly stupid to make Ramza (a unique character) a support/mage/etc. when all of the other unique characters you keep in your party for long periods of time are all damage dealers. Like I said, squad-building game, not Ramza-building game.
>and don't keep multiple saves.
Again just like I said with Queklain, if all chain battles were team-based (even the second fucking Gafgarion fight where you're "trapped" 1v1 behind the portcullis has you deploy your entire team, and that wasn't even a chain battle) multiple saves aren't even necessary. And that's also bad game design.
You seem to be assuming things from a replay standpoint, which is why you're a dumb nigger who is continuing to ignore everything in my posts.
We're talking about new players, and new players aren't stupid. They are taught what to expect from the game itself, and the game teaches you before that point
>you have all these unique characters, none are mages/healers/etc.
>either make Ramza a support or make a generic character a support
>chain battles happen, but only to bosses, and you get your full party to defeat them
>Gafgarion 1v1s you, but there's map design to open the gate, characters can Teleport over the wall to help you (or Ramza can Teleport to escape) depending on your overall class composition
Riovanes Castle is simply bad game design for a first-time player. You're absolutely deluded if you're defending it
>>332511690
>Either way, I don't give a fuck what you think, the stuff I said is the accepted definition
Go study up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargaming then
hint: it's the direct ancestor to this genre
>>332511702
Yes.
>>332511930
Not a single pertinent thing has been said in your posts, as the battle is only artificially difficult due to utter retardation from the player.
Essentially, the battle is difficult for you because you force Ramza to be a support character, despite being able to have several end-game jobs without any grinding whatsoever at that point. On top of that, you overwrite your only save. You keep digging yourself a deeper hole, cretin.
>>332510073
It's 100% impossible to have a save that can't beat this fight. This myth needs to end.
>>332510240
Mystery Dungeon is turnbased you silly nig
https://youtube.com/watch?v=WOdqG-fIh2c
so good and so balanced
>>332512183
>due to utter retardation from the player.
No, from being taught what to expect from the game itself.
>the battle is difficult for you because you force Ramza to be a support character,
I've said it twice and you don't seem able to read. The game gives you 6-7 slots, a bunch of unique characters, and none of them are Priests/Chemists/Oracles/etc. You either make a generic character to fill that role or you make Ramza fill that role. That's what the game tells you.
>despite being able to have several end-game jobs without any grinding whatsoever at that point.
You seem to think this is some sort of 1v1 game, so go back to a MOBA faggot. There are end-game support classes like Bard and Dancer (not that Ramza can become a dancer). Squads use the class system for roles, and your role for a character isn't likely to radically change lest your party lack a key player. You know, like healing.
>On top of that, you overwrite your only save.
And a new player is supposed to know this... why? You still haven't addressed the single most important aspect of this entire line of shitposts
There is nothing the game tells you is important about Ramza's class or multiple saves throughout the original PS1 version of FFT. Nothing. All other elements point otherwise.
Riovanes is bad game design for that reason. Second playthroughs, third playthroughs don't matter, because the game's already spoiled for you. You know what to do to beat him, you know to have two saves, and you know that you'll probably steamroll over him on the first try. That's not what we're talking about.
I'm sorry you can't read. Please study English and come back to the next FFT thread.
Someone please translate Berwick Saga.
>>332511930
Let it rest, man. He's not going to change his opinion, he's going to ignore every single one of your points so he can attack the one he think is invalid, stretch logic and then declare he's won. There's nothing you can do
>>332512270
Nope. No stats to determine turn order therefore it's turn turn based.
>>332511624
it's not only depth, like >>332511850 said
The only element in common are permadeath and procedural world generation; the latter of which cannot be the basis for a genre because the world in each of those games is so different from each other in terms of structure.
They play nothing alike. The stakes and learning curve are different. IN Darkest Dungeon, the permadeath is not even tied to YOU.
>>332512159
You must know that "YMIM" is in fact a subset of "turn-based" and that some roguelikes actually use that speed model you described further up or variations thereof
>>332512426
Joke's on him, I beat Wiegraf on my first try and my Ramza was a Squire
He can call me retarded all he wants. He's the one who probably had to restart his first save file.
People who defend Riovanes still disgust me, though. Of course Wiegraf is easy if you know what's coming (on your 2nd and 3rd playthrough). No, that shit shouldn't be forced on a new player
>>332512426
>>332512424
See
>>332512226
You can not physically make a save that's unable to beat this fight. Why all the drama?
>>332512506
>. IN Darkest Dungeon, the permadeath is not even tied to YOU
What does that mean? Also, I've never actually seen anyone call it roguelike
>>332512543
Use the save editor on insanedifficulty to make him a Priest with Time Mage subjob, +5 levels over Wiegraf (to be generous)
Let me know when you beat it. Both fights, I mean. Both Wiegraf in human form and Punished Snake form
>>332512567
you hire characters that can die.
you can lose your entire cast and contiinue the game since hiring characters is free.
>Also, I've never actually seen anyone call it roguelike
>>332511508
apparently this anon has
>>332512660
That's cheating and locking yourself into a job which the game doesn't do.
You can not put this game into your ps1, play to this point, save before the fight and be unable to beat it. It's not possible. The game is designed in such a fashion where no matter how stupid/bad/lacking in forethought you are this fight is not unwinable.
That's good game design my friend.
>take fucking forever to beat Wiegraf
>didn't build Ramza for support but wasn't exactly the tankiest fucker I had
>the feeling of relief once I finally beat Wiegraf fair and square
>then the incredible crushing feeling when he transforms and summons 3 fucking Archaeodaemons with him
>have to eventually cheese the chapter by upping Ramza's speed in the first part to retarded levels and one-shotting both forms
jesus FUCK
>>332512424
>TL;DR: I'm absolutely terrible at this game, forcing Ramza - the main character who will inevitably be in 1 on 1 combat - to be feeble support character because fuck you, other premade characters don't fit that role
Again, it's only difficult because you're an absolute fucking retard. I had no problem with the fight back then, and I have no problem with the fight now. In any version of the game.
Here's how this scenario would play out for non-tards:
>make separate save when asked to do so
>if you come unprepared, load the one prior to the battle and do some preparation
>if for some strange reason you have a non-combat Ramza, you spend an hour or two doing random battles, spamming squire abilities for JP
>try again until you've got the strategy down
You're even more retarded for even assuming all players are as retarded as you. Quit gaming.
>>332512474
Turn based means : characters move in turn
which happens
>>332512805
>That's cheating and locking yourself into a job which the game doesn't do.
Uh yeah it does
>load up Riovanes
>beat first fight
>save file
>be stuck in second fight with Ramza as whatever class/equipment he came in on
Have you been absent this whole thread?
>>332512835
>make separate save when asked to do so
It doesn't, you PSP babby.
Why am I arguing with a teenager who hasn't played the original?
Or worse, someone who played the original, then played the PSP version, and can't differentiate with the two. If you can't even keep simple differences straight in your head, there's no hope for you
>>332512939
I must have TERRIBLE memory. I was certain the save was prior to selecting your job for the fight as I remember having to fiddle with abilities and jobs to beat it my first playthrough.
Is this really not the case? Is my memory lying to me?
>>332512805
Just curious, how would you beat that fight if you never levelled ramza and discarded all your gear and items before the fight?
>>332508489
tfw i beat it on my first playthrough/first try because i saw a thread on /v/ and someone mentioned "ninja with martial arts" and i was like holy shit
so ramza did 300 damage with each fist
>>332513114
It's after
IMO FFT shouldn't have chain-fights at all. Or if they do, there should have been a dedicated save for it that the player can't mess with
>>332513117
Yell cheese. Rama gets enough jp from required battles.
>>332513223
Google is disagreeing with you. Anyone got a youtube of it or an actual save to test?
>>332513015
I'm not the one who lost my progress by overwriting my only save in a chain of battles. Even as a child. Again, quit gaming. You're absolutely terrible.
>>332509369
>playing games with females on the cover
>>332513313
what if you spent jp on something other than yell?
>>332513512
Spillover jp means you have jp for yell.
>>332513223
I can't find a YouTube video that shows but every "I saved at wiegraf halp" thread has "change your job/abilities" as the solution. I can only believe that my memory is right.
>>332513771
>Spillover jp means you have jp for yell.
Yes but you may have spent that spillover jp already. You can theoretically get a non-yell skill to reduce jp to zero, do the first riovanes battle, save, and the spillover jp from a single battle won't be enough to get yell.
>>332514032
I'm pretty certain this isn't possible. Feel free to give it a shot though to prove an anon on the Internet wrong. Would have to change my claim from "never 100% unwinnable" to "never unwinnable without deliberately trying."
>>332514352
I can't be bothered to try, but why wouldn't it be possible?
>>332514509
You'd have to have an extremely precise amount of jp to have enough to spend on things besides yell but not enough to get yell in the first place. And I almost feel as if this required amount of jp would put you at a level where you could easily beat wieg without yelling.
You say the spillover from a single battle wouldn't be enough to get yell but wouldn't the full jp be enough to get it?
But in the real world where you don't purposely make Ramza get no jp, you can beat this fight with a huge array of stratagies and jobs and there's ALWAYS the yell strat to fall back on.
Growlanser 2 and Fire Emblem Conquest because the map design quality & mission variety is unparalleled
>>332514972
Please explain growlanser 2; I thought it was far worse than growlanser iv in terms of mission variety, level design, and battle mechanics.
>>332514972
>Fire Emblem Conquest
FE's class system is shit now though. Absolutely bloated since 13
>>332513015
Hey, I call foul - Agrias ain't a Beolve
>>332514352
Spillover JP is acquired through other classes getting JP in that job. If you don't have other Squires, you're not acquiring JP.
