Hey /v just beat planescape torment and wanted to get others opinions on what The Nameless Ones original crime was.
Its mentioned that whatever his crimes were are beyond comprehension and effect the planes, and at the end he goes to fight in the blood war.
The only crime possible of being unspeakably terrible is actually starting the blood war, and a seemingly appropriate punishment is fighting there for eternity.
thoughts?
also discussion of all things PST and why not bring in other CRPG's too
It doesn't matter what his crime was
As it doesn't matter what his name was
What matters is that belief can change anything, if you believe strongly enough
The end.
>inb4 shitty nongame get out pcucks
Nobody knows what his crime is, except for the fact that it's killing the planes. I've seen the suggestion that it was the Blood War before, (or rather, that the Blood War was one of it's many consequences), but I seriously doubt it, seeing as the Blood War is fucking old, to the point that it could even precede mortals. It's also fueled by the inherently conflictory nature of Lawful- and Chaotic Evil, Baatezu and Tanari'ri. Admittedly, every war has its spark, so it's theoretically possible that TNO was involved.
>>329934251
I thought he just lived so long and did so much bad shit that he racked up a huge list of sins, enough to be damned on the spot when he got his mortality back.
>>329936668
Nope, the First Incarnate fucked up hard. He fucked up so big a lifetime of repentance and good deeds wasn't enough to cover for it, and even though he actually turned good, he would still land firmly in hell, which is why he seeked immortality; to get more time. Amnesia obviously wasn't part of the plan, although he mentions that all the deeds the evil incarnates committed, combined, are absolute peanuts compared to the original sin.
>>329937245
I don't think he ever "turned good" in his first life.
>>329937563
He did; he is called the "Good Incarnate", after all, I believe he truly, genuinely, regretted his deed, but in Planescape, alignment doesn't necessarily equate to what afterlife you end up in. It's all about your deeds. This is why the last incarnate always ends up in hell, even if he's as good as it gets and embraces it willingly.
>>329934942
>It doesn't matter what his crime was
I would dispute that, I mean its important to him becoming immortal. I dont need to know EXACTLY what he did, but at least something to base his decision off of.
>As it doesn't matter what his name was
Fair enough, sure
>What matters is that belief can change anything, if you believe strongly enough
can you elaborate? I think I follow
>>329936249
Ya it seems unlikely because of how old the war is, but then again the nameless one has been around for many lifetimes.
ultimately early dnd is pretty hand wavy and TNO could explain this spark. from my research on blood war there is no initial start reason to it.
>>329937245
>the deeds the evil incarnates committed, combined, are absolute peanuts compared to the original sin.
this is ultimately why i think it has to be the blood war. what else could be that bad?
It's been over a decade since I played PS:T but always thought it implied the act of making himself immortal was the crime - and presumably involved horrendous acts.
>>329938157
>I will not be judged by you mortal; not when you have lived the lives you have. Let me tell you of Betrayal: betrayal is cowardice... selling weapons to your adversaries out of fear that they might stop killing each other and turn upon you. Betrayal is refusing to lead by example. Betrayal is letting the Fiends run rampant through the Planes until evil has corrupted all hearts.
He didn't cause the Blood War but he let it spread to the other planes
>>329938461
See
>>329937245
The talk with the First/Good Incarnate at the end of the game confirms that there was more to it than that.
>>329934251
I've always followed the theory that he caused some kind of chain reaction that would lead to the inevitable death of the planes.
I think he also ended up as a part of the blood war, but I really don't think he started it. Those have just always been happening and are an inevitable result of two completely different ideologies about the same thing: evil.
I wonder what's his powers really. On the intro he looks like a standard white human, how did someone like this fuck up everything so hard?
Was he a grand strategist who started a big war?
>>329938523
No, that's Trias shittalking the upper planes as he's mad of the fact that rather of taking the fight to the Fiends, they are so scared shitless of them that the upper planes actively fuel the Blood War so that the Fiends keep feuding with eachother instead of setting their eyes on the upper planes.
Who do you think he was?
When he confronts himself in the final area he speaks to the original version of himself and tells him what his name is.
His reaction to that is both shock and he exclaims that if he was that person all along then why...
He was a major player in the grand scheme on things it seems and there was even a rumour about that he might be the one that willed the githzerai into existence.
anyone know who the fuck the guy is drowning at 1:12 here and then sword fighting?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgqX82-HRYE
also, any thought on the lady of pains involvement?
>>329938523
hmmm that actually makes a lot of sense, and would explain more.
any further thought on what he could do with the fiends running rampant? wasnt there something on letting the fiends into sigil too?
>>329939127
i think its smack talk but i think there could be some sort of spreading it elsewhere.
I guess maybe the nameless struck a deal with letting the fiends in... i dunno
>>329939135
Chris confirmed that he was never Zerthimon, but he could still be involved with the Gith anyway. I've always found it strange that the Practical Incarnate somehow got his hand on the Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon, because even though what he gave Dak'kon was a fake, I'm still sure the text itself was legit.
>>329938986
Considering his immense regrets I always got the feeling whatever he did, it was not entirely his intention to have it be bad. Maybe it was even an accident. He was just screwed.
Actually, doesn't Morte also have something to do with it? Or am I mis-remembering? Morte was in the Tower of Skulls because one of his lies fucked up the original nameless one. One of the incarnations found him later and took him for his knowledge, but the skulls from the tower only have knowledge while they're in it.
>>329939718
ah, never mind, Morte was put in the tower for causing the original incarnation's death, not his crime
>>329939718
You're remembering correctly. Morte probably did have something to do with it; he suspects so himself, and his torment that draws him to TNO is his guilt of having done so, although he can't remember what it was.
>>329939135
He'sAdahn
>>329939990
No, the First Incarnate's death was at the hands of Ravel. It's more likely Morte's crime had to do with TNO's own.
Just finished the game last night, hehe.
>>329939990
That's correct I think
>>329939718
If you take the Practical Incarnation's word for it, Morte was only "feigning ignorance", he never actually forgot anything.
>>329940159
He told the good incarnation that Ravel could make him immortal, basically, but Ravel killed him..
That means he lied, which nets him a place in the tower.
However, you could speculate he still has something to do with the crime, and maybe to save himself he lied to get TNO killed.
Why don't they make CRPGs like Baldur's Gate and this anymore? I miss the D&D days...
>>329940159
Don't you only go to the Pillar of Skulls if you told a lie that resulted in someone's death?
>>329940206
The practical incarnation didn't know everything, he was just mad as fuck.
Morte probably legit forgot anything, otherwise anyone could be stealing tower skulls for knowledge without sacrifice.
>>329940331
TToN is coming out this year...
>>329940313
But Ravel did make him immortal. Ravel killed him to make sure that it worked, the result of which was his first memory loss. If Morte simply told him that Ravel could make him immortal, it wouldn't be a lie.
>>329940462
There's a lot of stuff i don't like in TToN, especially the setting, but i'm hoping it's gonna be good
>>329940313
>However, you could speculate he still has something to do with the crime
ya there is no complete information on morte and TNO for the TNO's original crime. I am under the impression TNO encountered Morte after he lost his mortality
>>329939629
Probably one of his incarnations had a huge amount of influence on them. He's old as fuck and has been almost everywhere.
>>329940556
Trias said that TNO was only a pseudo-immortal, not a true one. You get a spot if your lie causes someone else's death, so when Morte said that TNO would become immortal and TNO got killed, it still counts even though TNO didn't die permanently. Being truly immortal means that you can't die, not that you get back up.
>>329940556
Ravel didn't make him immortal, she took away his mortality.
>>329940593
Morte and TNO definitely met before TNO's first death. I'm sure of that much at the very least.
>>329940738
you could also argue because of him SOMEONE died, since every time TNO dies someone's life is taken in exchange for his revival
>>329939495
>anyone know who the fuck the guy is drowning at 1:12 here and then sword fighting?
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgqX82-HRYE
no one in particular
TNO has done a lot of shit in his life. That woman who appears frequently in the intro and turns into an undead never appears in the game proper.
>>329940852
True, I didn't think of that. Either way, I'm sure Morte's done enough things in his life besides this that would earn him hell somewhere
>>329940852
Also, a question about this, why are there only practical, paranoid and good incarnations at the end? Were they the only ones that lived an influencing life?
>>329941048
Simply particularly important incarnations that played a large part in YOUR journey, so they show up with their high affinity to you.
There were many that were influential and didn't show, like Ignus's super fucked up master.
>>329940341
>>329940313
>>329939990
Wait, shit, you're all right, Morte does suspect he had something to do with the First Incarnate's death.
Well, then I don't have any clue. It would mean Morte is somehow connected to TNO seeking out Ravel, but in such a way that he deceived TNO?
I'm suddenly confused.
>>329941345
Morte is a born liar.
You played the game, right? Don't you remember?
Don't trust the skull.
What can change the nature of a man, /v/?
>>329941635
love
>>329941048
they're each just sort of spokespersons for the different extremes TNO's life could take. For the sake of narrative convenience, each one is in themselves a summary of countless similar lives TNO has lived. Any more than that would just be crowded
>>329941635
Torment
I HAVE COMMITTED MANY CRIMES ACROSS MANY LIFETIMES. I GO NOW TO A PLACE OF PUNISHMENT. YOU CANNOT COME WITH ME.
>>329941635
Friends
>>329941635
Anything you believe could. Although with the exception of Belief, most people tend to gravitate towards Regret.
>>329941345
i suppose that makes some sense. to my understanding morte doesnt have anything to do with the heinous crime TNO commited though.
>>329941436
hey my bad, wont happen again
>>329934251
He probably is responsible for the creation of Coaxmetal
>>329941048
Narrative convenience and Rule of Three, probably, although the Good Incarnate suspects that it could be that the three somehow left a greater imprint upon TNO's mind than the other incarnates.
"An elderly man was sitting alone on a dark path, right? He wasn't certain of which direction to go, and he'd forgotten both where he was traveling to and who he was. He'd sat down for a moment to rest his weary legs, and suddenly looked up to see an elderly woman before him. She grinned toothlessly and with a cackle, spoke: 'Now your *third* wish. What will it be?'"
"'Third wish?' The man was baffled. 'How can it be a third wish if I haven't had a first and second wish?'"
"'You've had two wishes already,' the hag said, 'but your second wish was for me to return everything to the way it was before you had made your first wish. That's why you remember nothing; because everything is the way it was before you made any wishes.' She cackled at the poor berk. 'So it is that you have one wish left.'"
"'All right,' said the man, "I don't believe this, but there's no harm in wishing. I wish to know who I am.'"
"'Funny,' said the old woman as she granted his wish and disappeared forever. 'That was your first wish.'"
I recently completed the game too. I think the main thing I didn't understand, though it's mostly just a detail, is Mebbeth. Is she the mother of Ravel? Or some sort of incarnation of her? What was the deal with her when you returned to Sigil?
>>329942462
m8
read ravel's dialogues again
>>329942339
you really got to love the writing in this game.
I cant think of another game with this level of world building.
also i love how they managed to pull of the evilness of the world while giving it rhyme and reason
How's Torment: TON, is it a worthy successor to PS:T? I finished PS:T recently but I found it a bit outdated in controls and pathing, so a successor with that problem fixed would be great.
>>329942462
There are several incarnations of Ravel in the game, Mebbeth is one of them.
>>329942339
Man, I loved that story. Loved the entire Sensate brothel, actually.
>>329942616
it's not done yet
>>329942616
It isn't out yet. Also not a sequel or any of that.
"*Know* that a mind divided divides the man. The will and the hand must be as one. In *knowing* the self, one becomes strong."
"*Know* that if you *know* a course of action to be true in your heart, do not betray it because the path leads to hardship. *Know* that without suffering, the Rising would have never been, and the People would never have come to *know* themselves."
"*Know* that there is nothing in all the Worlds that can stand against unity. When all *know* a single purpose, when all hands are guided by one will, and all act with the same intent, the Planes themselves may be moved."
"A divided mind is one that does not *know* itself. When it is divided, it cleaves the body in two. When one has a single purpose, the body is strengthened. In *knowing* the self, grow strong."
>>329942462
Mebbeth is an aspect of Ravel, reflecting her hidden kindness. As such, she is slowly dying after Ravel's own death, as Mebbeth can't exist independently of her.
Is there a single game that can compete with PS:T in terms of writing quality?
>>329943306
Soul Reaver is pretty good.
>>329943306
Some mights say MGS series, some might say games like Pathologic where everything is a perfectly created metaphor but i'll say PST is the greatest
>>329943306
Legacy of Kain is great, but more because of the voice acting than the writing.
NWN 2 - Mask of the Betrayer is my #2 RPG in terms of quality writing.
>>329942918
The teachings of Zerthimon has so much applicability on real life desu
>>329941635
Whatever a man believes can change people is what can change him.
>>329942339
I didn't come across this part (or at least I don't remember), where was this?
>>329944975
This is what you get when you ask Morte to tell a story for Yves Tale-Chaser in Fall-from-Grace's brothel.
>>329944975
It's the story Morte tells to one of Fall-From-Grace's prostitutes, a tale chaser.
Highly implied to be exactly what happened to The Nameless One when he first revived.
>>329943681
As much as I love LoK, I think most of the charm was the way it narrated the story not the philosophical depth of it, which is I think, one of the things that makes PST special. Although, with that I don't mean one is better than the other, it's just a different style of writing.
I'm currently playing MotB for the first time, I'm at Act II. It's promising, but so far I haven't seen that much the Avellone-quality writing.
I think KOTOR 2 is the only game at the same level as PST in terms of writing depth.
>>329945226
>>329945268
Oh, I know why I never got that then.I left him with Lothar when I got into the Wards until it was time to leave
>>329945512
m8, what the fuck, why
>>329945635
I was busy with other quests and kinda forgot about him, and I was a little pissed that he hid the last line on the tattoo. I was almost going to leave him there entirely but I thought it would be more interesting to just bring him.
>>329945512
Who is Lothar, Actually ? THe fact he can actually fuckign end you is intriguing, considering only the Lady can do it outside of him
It's a shame that the "killing yourself" option always results in the worst ending. At a certain point during the game, I realized that my quest was to die, and that it was essentially a death march towards redeeming myself by claiming that death.
I mean, I guess that's what happened when TNO got sent to literal hell, but I dunno. Think it'd been more effective if he said goodbye to all his friends, and then disappeared forever.
A true death, if you will ;)
>>329934251
>The only crime possible of being unspeakably terrible is actually starting the blood war, and a seemingly appropriate punishment is fighting there for eternity.
Blood War is an extremely, very old affair between the tanarri and baatezu though, I personally don't see a way how Nameless One could've started it.
>>329946891
It's not only about killing yourself. It's about coming to terms with killing yourself and being at peace with the decision. That's what is represented by the Fortress of Regret and The Nameless One conquering it. It's him coming to terms and being at peace with his own mortality and death.
>>329946442
>considering only the Lady can do it outside of him
That's not true. Those dragon-like creatures around Sigil will destroy TNO permanently if he fucks with them. It's been a long time since I've played the game, but I recall reading that TNO will die if his body is destroyed beyond the ability of his regeneration, such as if he is burned to ashes by a dragon's breath.
>>329936249
The Blood War was already a thing before he did whatever. He pursued immortality in order to atone so he wouldn't have to go to the Blood War
>>329943306
Silent Hill 2
>>329940556
If I remember correctly you can actually tell that to Morte but he'll tell you that he still feels quilty.
>>329946442
M8 even Ignus can permanently destroy you.
>>329945454
Post moar dick
>>329947686
I don't remember those things being THAT dangerous.
>>329940313
He was the one who tricked the original TNO into comitting his crime. But he did end up in the Pillar because he told TNO that Ravel would make him immortal.
>>329943498
just bought, less than 2 dollars
>>329947227
>>329947818
so would the most plausible thing being sending the blood war to other planes then?
see >>329938523
maybe he benefited in some way from doing this, loads of gold who knows, but he did have that vision of leading a bunch of banners
>>329949181
I'm still betting on it being some kind of accident.
>>329948532
Ignus is ungodly powerfull, he's just became completely retarded from the constant burning
>>329941048
They may have absorbed the others, the way you absorb them.
Beating up his dad.
