If Zelda U is all single-item puzzles like ALBW was, I'm making myself an Aonuma voodoo doll.
Don't worry. Its going to be all story with 30 minutes of riding a horse in between each cutscene.
It's going to be a zelda game like the first zelda
>but all the weapons are the same
>you get one gimmick musical item
>one gimmick mechanic item
>one gimmick all around game mechanic item like the boat,horse, or wall walking
>they're going to gate every dungeon with an item requirement like ALBW
fucking end me
>>323865414
I'd be pretty upset of Aonuma made another great game like ALBW as well.
>>323868003
Half the stuff you named isn't in the first Zelda. And if this game was like the first Zelda, it would actually be a good game. That's why it can't be like Zelda 1.
>>323869989
that's what I'm saying, they're going to have all the same weapons they always have and all the gimmick items and do the gating system.
They'll pretend it's open world like zelda 1 though.
I expect the game to solve the puzzles before even giving you a chance to try solving them yourself.
>>323870452
I expect a game where the only puzzles is 'kill all enemies to get a key' or 'push this block to get a key' or 'follow the light to the key', etc
Pretty sad when the first Zelda has more variety than a multi million dollar game with a third dimension.
Zelda used to be my favorite series, even ranking above Mario, in my opinion. Then Nintendo let Aonuma run wild with the series.
>>323872070
>process for making ALBW
>spent days thinking about a unique mechanic
>everything they made was shot down and laughed at by the director
>finally they pull a rabbit and program a mechanic that they show has multiple uses
>they pour everything into the prototype, they show all the uses it has and list all the possibilities for puzzles
>design the entire game around this mechanic like it's the new form of jumping
>Triforce heroes
>they wanted to make a multiplayer zelda
>took four swords
>took one of them out
>designed the puzzles and gameplay soley around the aspect of having 3 players
Aonuma is not that bad. He doesn't call all the shots himself. Zelda is bad because the people making it don't know how anymore.
Stop listening to the meme Maelstrom and I created.
someone post that STATUE PLUS SWITCH EQUALS ZELDA picture
i didn't have the foresight to save it myself
fitting for zelda as of recently
>>323872070
I agree. Zelda 1 on NES was the game I grew up on. And the next four games just got me more and more interested in the series.
Then Aonuma took over and the series just fell apart. Sure, Majora's and Wind Waker were interesting...but didn't have the Zelda feel to me. And everything after was just downright shit.
So I went to Metroid and Dragon Quest to fill the hole that Zelda left. And one of those series is falling apart...
>>323873201
Between the Maelstrom fanboys and the Koizumi cultists that are convinced he did everything ever, I have no idea which one is worse.
>>323874387
well at least hes not Hidemaro
>>323874856
Koizumi did a lot. But I would argue Matoko Kato set the stage for Zelda as we know it. The setting (fire, water, sand, etc areas) as well as the story for the first three games. I'd rather he returned than Koizumi.
>>323872869
Technically, Shikata's programmer tossed the "What if he goes into walls?" out of the blue and the three got pulled away to work on something else before they actually had done anything concrete with it. Aonuma then found the unfinished prototype, polished it up, and finally managed to sell it t Miyamoto when he locked the regular perspective in the top-down view, so there'd be a more drastic shift between the wall walking and the regular gameplay. It was only after the basic model was done than Shikata came back and was put in charge of ALBW.
>>323875087
>Koizumi
what's wrong with him.
>>323875261
Oh I'm not crediting aonuma for that one. I'm just saying the limits and choke hold miyamoto had really made the game.
>>323875297
I didn't really say anything was wrong with him. Though based on interviews, he did introduce more focus on story and NPC fetch quests into Majora's Mask. Which is the exact point I think Zelda lost its way as a series. When story became more of a focus than exploration.
>>323875087
Koizumi's greatest contributions to the series were always in programming, not story. The myth that he ever established a grand plan for the series, let alone that he was ever given the authority to draft any such thing, is just that: a myth. Example:
Koizumi Fanboy Fantasy:
-Yoshiaki Koizumi created and wrote the entirety of Kokiri Forest.
Reality:
-Koizumi codes Z-Targetting. Thinks having an arrow icon is boring, so they decide to turn the arrow icon into a fairy.
-The team is trying to implement Kokiri forest, but they find that the N64 lags when rendering everyone in the area. Koizumi suggests putting a fairy on everyone so they can just render the fairy at a distance and save memory.
-They show this to Ozawa so he can come up with a story justifications for all these mechanics.
-Thus, the plot point about the Kokiri having fairy companions is born, solely just so they could justify a programming shortcut.
>>323874387
>And everything after was just downright shit.
>>323874387
>Then Aonuma took over and the series just fell apart
>And everything after was just downright shit.
You're a failure of a human being
>Metroid and DQ fan
Oh. So you know that already.
>>323872869
TFH is a bit shit compared to FSA, it's not just a case of "take FSA and remove one link."
>>323876878
That was their plan. they said in an interview how they wanted to just recreate four swords and make it easier.
>>323877081
>they wanted to just recreate four swords and make it easier
[Citation Needed]
>>323877153
>Shikata: We first wanted to focus on multiplayer, and if we did the traditional Zelda-type dungeons, it would've been a little difficult. So we thought about how we could make multiplayer easier to play.
>Aonuma: We made games in the past like Four Swords, which was focused on multiplayer as well. So honestly, we believe that Triforce Heroes is almost like an evolution or a step up from Four Swords. We're a bit surprised that a lot of people are saying that it's a little unique or deviates from the traditional Zelda frame, because we built something that has been done in the past. So it doesn't detour too much from the Zelda series.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-story-behind-triforce-heroes-an-interview-with/1100-6431697/
>>323875869
You'll have to forgive me. I am that Koizumi cultist you speak of. And I've accepted what you told me, that he's no longer the godfather of Zelda lore I thought him to be, and Aonuma is not as bad as I thought (I'm also the anon you replied to above).
It is done Anon. You won. The war is over. He didn't write Ocarina of Time and I will concede that. But I still hold that he's a grandmaster of the lore to a degree. And that he made the Kokiri. He specifically says "I came up with the idea that everyone in that village be followed by a fairy" or along those lines.
>>323877256
>So we thought about how we could make multiplayer easier to play (for multiplayer)
You can't read?
>>323877530
if he means easier for multiplayer controls then yeah my bad but
>we wanted it to be easy for anyone to pick up, understand, and just have fun with it.
full quote
Shikata: Correct, Ganon does not appear in this game. So far, in making Zelda games on the 3DS, it's been more on the light-hearted side. Nothing too heavy. So in this game, we wanted to focus on three-player. And especially since it's on a handheld system, we wanted it to be easy for anyone to pick up, understand, and just have fun with it. That's why it became the story that it is.
>>323865414
I can't remember the last time Zelda actually forced you to use more than just the shitty item you just received in a dungeon. I think maybe the Temple of Time just because the Dominion Rod is a useless load.
On another note, why is Hyrule Warriors so much god damn fun?
>Favorite character?
>Favorite weapon?
>What DLC do you already have?
>>323877709
>we wanted (the story) to be easy for anyone to pick up, understand, and just have fun with it
Stop.
For a second I thought that was Huey Emmerich in the thumbnail.
>>323865414
You mean like every Zelda game since Twilight Princess?
Face it, Zelda's never going to reach its former glory. The market has changed.
I really hope zelda u is good, it's my last hope for the series and the wii u.
Skyward sword was so horrible though. How could they be so misguided. Not even amateur developers should have made those kinds of missteps that held SS back
>>323877709
Is Shikata some failed clone of Aonuma? Jesus they're all made of terrible ideas.
>>323877478
>And that he made the Kokiri
Let me get this straight: You read that the programming team was struggling with rendering the Kokiri kids, in the Kokiri forest, in the area that had already been designed, with the characters that had already being designed, in the area that was at such a later stage of development that the problem they were facing was one of optimization, and then Koizumi suggested a programming shortcut... and from this you take that he's responsible for the creation of all aforementioned content?
Are you just dumb as shit, or do you have brain problems?
Also, there's no "grandmaster of the lore" because there was never any "lore" to grandmaster. ALttP completely ignored the backstory of Zelda 2, and then OoT completely ignored the backstory of OoT, thus necessitating the whole failure timeline patchup. The games up to Majora's Mask were under the direct command of Shigeru "Fuck Plot" Miyamoto. What plot there is in OoT is the result of one dude being asked to come up with post-hoc justifications for whatever the rest of the designers came up with. The whole "Time" part of "Ocarina of Time" didn't even exist until the last year and a half of its development cycle. THAT is how little of a fuck they gave about anything resembling "lore" back then.
>>323876838
Miyamoto has specifically cited Dragon Quest as a major inspiration for Zelda. Going as far as saying in Iwata panels that Dragon Quest games are a standard of quality he shoots for when making a Zelda game. And that he doesn't feel like he ever reached that level.
But sure. Dragon Quest sucks and Zelda has never slumped.
>>323877798
In all honesty that design isn't really that bad. It's just so unimaginative and predictable.
Like shit, could you imagine when you got the bow. First thing they do is have you shoot an eye and open a door. Now you do this twelve more times. Or maybe they could actually have the arrows bounce off walls. Get it to curve and hit a button. You suddenly have a lot more puzzle potential with all these variables in direction. Combine this with some rod that makes walls or something.
have an enemy that hides behind a shield. Have the rooms be angular and you have to hit it off a wall to hit them in the back.
Just mix it up I guess.
>>323878085
He was talking about the story being easier to pick up and understand.
>>323878215
>drops Zelda during the N64 era for Metroid and DQ
>anything but a cuck
lol
>>323877798
Ocarina of Time had tons of things you did that didn't relate to the item you got in a dungeon. This is one of the dozens of reasons Twilight Princess was such an underwhelming game. Because most of the dungeon design was just bashing things, hitting a switch or using that one item.
Hmm...I just got a clawshot. Looks like I know what I'm gonna be using for the next hour. Than barely at all the rest of the game unless I want a couple heart pieces...
>>323878215
>And that he doesn't feel like he ever reached that level
This might be one of the first times I agree with Miyamoto the rip-off.
>>323878610
>drops Zelda during the N64 era for Metroid and DQ
I've played every Zelda. That's how I can say the series has gone downhill.
Also
>ignores the point with greentext
>lol
>>323878767
You didn't have a point.
>number of DQ home console games since OoT - 2
>number of Metroid home conole games since OoT - 1
Wind Waker > DQVIII
Skyward Sword > MoM
>>323878903
>games on handhelds don't count
>only main series games count
>only games I like count
Holy shit, its this guy again. You're not content shitting up Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy threads? Now you have to invade Zelda threads too?
>>323878903
>You didn't have a point.
I did. And since you're working so hard to subvert my point, I know you recognized it. And don't have to bother replying to you anymore.
>>323878692
>Because most of the dungeon design was just bashing things, hitting a switch or using that one item.
This absolutely applies to OoT, you nostalgia-blinded moron. Oh, and don't forget the key-fetching that made up 50% of every OoT dungeon too! Every dungeon revolved around its item, you couldn't complete the dungeon or solve most of the puzzles without the item.
>>323869989
>Zelda 1
>good
Fucking hipsters
>>323880167
It's not a bad game at all. I never played it when it first came out even though I did have an NES. To call it a bad game is just being stubborn because it really paved the way for secrets, and world exploration for future nintendo games and LoZ as a whole. Don't be such a contrarian.
>>323880063
Just the four Poes in the Forest Temple, each with their own style of puzzle, already had more variety than the majority of Aonuma dungeons. And the only use of the item in the dungeon is the bow to get the Poe out of the painting. Which again, is way more unique and cryptic than anything in an Aonuma Zelda.
But then you had stuff like the flame maze in Fire Temple, water system in Water Temple, hidden doors/pathways in the shadow temple and a host of things in the Spirit Temple. All of which aren't limited to just a key or switch. Or the item you find in that specific temple.
>>323880167
>Zelda 1
>bad
Fucking contrarians.
>>323876838
All this chart is showing me is that Tezuka needs to be in charge of the series.
Can we just get a LA style game with AoL features? I want to explore again.
>>323880649
>Just the four Poes in the Forest Temple, each with their own style of puzzle, already had more variety than the majority of Aonuma dungeons.
That was an Aonuma Dungeon, you moron. That was Aonuma's main role in OoT, designing the dungeons and the enemies within. The entire fucking reason why he bailed out of "Ura Zelda" and ended up making Majora's Mask was that he didn't want to get stuck in a dull rehash project where he'd have the lion's share of the busywork. Trying to play the "Aonuma ruined Zelda" routine and then praising the dungeon design is the easiest way to reveal that you're just an ignorant shithead.
>>323881028
Aonuma was one of five co directors and producers on the game. I'm gonna need a source that says he focused on dungeon design. Let alone that he was the sole person who designed the Forest Temple.
>>323880649
>muh Aonuma boogeyman
Almost as bad as Smashbabbies bitching about Sakurai as if he intentionally ruined the game just to spite you.
>four Poes in the Forest Temple
You need the bow to beat the dungeon's boss, you can't finish the dungeon without it. You also need the bow to solve several puzzles/open several doors. Also Aonuma worked on/designed this dungeon, you fucking moron.
>the flame maze in Fire Temple
A single room that exists to house switches and a key.
>water system in Water Temple
Requires the dungeon's item to fully manipulate.
>hidden doors/pathways in the shadow temple
Requires the dungeon's item.
>All of which aren't limited to just a key or switch. Or the item you find in that specific temple.
That's about what they are limited to, take off the fucking goggles you simpering shitwit.
And what about the dungeons in TP that were interesting, like Palace of Twilight or playing jungle-gym with monkies in the forest temple? Nothing like that at all in OoT, most of the works you do in its dungeons amounts to pushing giant square blocks to collect keys or hit switches and, wait for it, using the item you acquire in the dungeon to solve puzzles and access/beat the boss.
>>323881202
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/zelda-ocarina-of-time/1/0
>No. When I joined, the script was somewhat established, and they were rapidly turning out the content. I designed a total of six early and mid-stage dungeons, most of the enemy characters, and enemy and boss battles.
>http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/zelda-ocarina-of-time/1/5
>Yeah. And after I'd designed the early dungeons, a new item would be done and someone would tell me, "Make sure there isn't any trouble when Link enters into the dungeon with this item." I'd be like, "Come on! Tell me that sooner!" (laughs)
>>323880649
>already had more variety than the majority of Aonuma dungeons
>OoT: Blocks and Keys: The Dungeon: The Game
What about Arbiter's Grounds, riding around on walls on a spinning top was in OoT? What about Goron Mines, walking on the fucking ceiling? What about the Palace of Twilight's opening segment that requires you collect and and transport an item while keeping that fucking hand from grabbing it back? What about the Forest Temple and the monkeys that slowly opened new paths as you saved more of them? What about fucking Snowpeak Ruins with its completely different take on pacing and dungeon structure?
>>323881983
They're fun dungeons but ultimately gimmicky shit where you just abuse the dungeon item (Or the item you just got before it in the case of Goron Mines). Palace of Twilight is probably the most interesting of the lot due to the great use of backtracking.
The Monkeys are basically keys anyway.
>>323881563
>all your specific points about one part of a dungeon not needing an item are invalid because you still need the dungeons item at some point over the course of the entire dungeon
Then all Zelda games except Zelda 1 are invalid. Good job.
>>323881573
So he wasn't the only one designing dungeons. As the end credits clearly state where there's a list of a dozen different people.
>>323882283
I don't even understand what you're trying to say here. TP's dungeons were plenty varied in both setting and use of items, no less so than OoT if not more.
Also see
>>323881573
Aonuma made or at least helped make the forest temple, genius. At least do your fucking research before posting.
Where are you guys getting this info about who made what dungeon. Really interested in their design process.
>>323881202
>>323881573
Aonuma may have designed the early dungeons (and it shows, going off the first two, which I dare to say are not Zelda's finest hours), but his only confirmed credit of the later dungeons is the Water Temple. Which is my favorite temple in the entire game, but I don't believe he made it all on his own. I base this on the interview he did in 09 where he apologized for it, and then Koizumi corrected him in his own interview and said "No, Aonuma didn't do that part."
>Personally, I like the old-style Zelda dungeons in which you have to solve puzzles to continue, where there are fewer enemies. I’d rather have you puzzling over what to do than hacking your way through monsters.
>The puzzle’s contents are orthodox till the middle of the game, and thereafter you must put the things you’ve learned to use. At the beginning, there’s only one puzzle room to solve, then eventually entire dungeons become rotating puzzles. In the final dungeons, everything you’ve learned comes into play and the puzzles are accompanied by an athletic element, as the staff who worked on Mario were kind enough to help us out. Athletic dungeons are their specialty. I don’t think it could flow any better!
http://www.glitterberri.com/ocarina-of-time/1101-interviews/dungeons/
Aonuma: The one that really stands out to me of the dungeons is Woodfall. This was right after the development of Ocarina of Time had finished and we knew we wanted to make a different sort of dungeon. And this is one where I ended up stepping into the role of directing the creation of the dungeon specifically. The person who had been specifically in charge of dungeons up to that point had just changed over. I knew that what I wanted to give it more flavor. I think I was responsible for maybe half of it and I think the new person working on dungeons did the other half in this case.
http://kotaku.com/how-a-zelda-dungeon-is-made-1686291960
>>323882283
>So he wasn't the only one designing dungeons.
Stop grasping at straws, you moron. You read somewhere that Aonuma was the bane of the series, latched onto it because it gave you a target to bitch at, parroted it like a stupid fuck without ever bothering to learn anything for yourself, and now are trying to save face after you claimed he's the reason the dungeons aren't like they were when HE WAS THE ONE DESIGNING THEM.
So he designed six early and mid-stage dungeons, and you are now banking on the remote possibility that Dungeons #4, #5 and #6, which you praised, are totally some of one of the ones he didn't work on?
>>323882252
>but ultimately gimmicky shit where you just abuse the dungeon item
Buzzwords aside, you do the exact same shit in OoT, that's the point. You can't progress though the dungeon without finding and using the dungeon's item at certain key points. Much of the dungeons are comprised of using said item or your other items to solve puzzles to obtain keys to open locked doors toward the end of gaining access to the boss's room.
>The Monkeys are basically keys anyway.
So how is that worse than literally being a key or switch? TP has interesting, in-story ways for you to get through dungeons. Snowpeak ruins alone was more off the beaten path than anything OoT offered. It was a very unique dungeon in structure and pacing that both made good use of the item you found there and had plenty of content within that did not require it. Like OoT, certain key points are blocked off until you acquire the item.
>>323882693
>Personally, I like the old-style Zelda dungeons in which you have to solve puzzles to continue, where there are fewer enemies. I’d rather have you puzzling over what to do than hacking your way through monsters.
Aonuma... Aonuma never changes...
>>323882693
Oh just fuck off, you deranged fucking cultist. Nothing you say is worth shit because time and again you've gotten caught making shit up wholesale or flat-out-lying about what the interviews you link to say.
>>323882693
>his only confirmed credit
http://kotaku.com/how-a-zelda-dungeon-is-made-1686291960
>Kotaku: So it's one person who normally lays it out? The structure I'm used to with Zelda is that there's going to be a set number of dungeons—and I don't know how that works in terms of development. Does each dungeon get made by a different person? And does one person do that dungeon and the artist draws it? I'm curious how it all happens.
>Aounma: It depends on the project, I guess is the best way to answer this. In the case of Ocarina of Time I did the original layout for each of the dungeons, but that's really rough to try to do that all on one person.
Nigger, learn to read.
>>323882942
I paraphrased it. There's more to that interview about that. Keep reading.
>>323882693
Also, this is the interview with Koizumi. I don't know why stuff for ONM is so hard to find after it's released. But basically he adds nothing new. http://www.gonintendo.com/s/158864-koizumi-on-mario-sunshine-inspiration-favorite-game-water-temple-faults-sunshine-galaxy-zelda-remake-interest
>ONM: Would you ever like to go back and improve your games?
>YK: I considered mentioning this at the roundtable when Mr. Aonuma was discussing the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time. I sometimes feel that it was my fault that so many people had so much trouble, especially considering that he pinpointed the difficulty in how inconvenient it was to change back and forth between wearing the iron boots and taking them off again. Because, in fact, I was the one who designed the interface for that game and so if it is anyone's fault that it is hard to put on and take off the iron boots it was mine. I have to say that I didn't know he was going to make that kind of dungeon where you had to keep putting on your boots and taking them off again!
What doesn't make sense is why Aonuma would take credit for something he didn't do.Which makes me question his whole involvement with the Water Temple.
>>323883181
Layout =/= dungeon
Layout is the map or geography of something
>>323882736
>You read somewhere that Aonuma was the bane of the series
More like I saw the progression where each game Aonuma had more control over, the worse the game was. And this is entirely my opinion. If you like later Zelda games, then you obviously won't share my opinion. But you yelling at me isn't going to change my opinion.
If I'm making Aonuma out to be a 'boogeyman', you're working too hard to defend him and associating everyone who dislikes him as a bandwagon troll.
>>323883279
>What doesn't make sense is why Aonuma would take credit for something he didn't do.
Holy shit, you're unbearable.
You're asking this because you're fucking crazy, or stupid, or both.
Aonuma designed the dungeon. Nothing you quoted says otherwise, except that you're so pathologically obsessed with Koizumi that you saw his name, the words "I was the one" and instantly jerked yourself off to it while deciding that Aonuma had viciously stolen credit fro your waifu.
If you were sane, which you are not, you would realize Koizumi is claiming credit for the interface, not the dungeon. The problem in the Water Temple was that you had to keep putting on and taking off the boots, which meant going back and forth to the status screen. Aonuma takes responsibility for the chunkiness of this by saying he should have designed the dungeon in some other way, while Koizumi takes responsibility for it by saying he should have made the interface differently. The solution to this issue, which was use din both the 3D remake and TP, wa sto make the Iron Boots a C-Item instead of a piece of gear.
No one is lying, here is no reason to doubt Aonuma's word, nothing Koizumi says contradicts that, and this is all another data point regarding the fact that you can't read and have some sickening, deranged obsession with claiming Aonuma somehow stole the series away from your beloved Koizumi.
>>323883576
>More like I saw
Nigger, you didn't even know what his role was and directly praised the feature he had the most direct control over. He moved AWAY from the minutiae of design as he climbed the ladder, not closer. Do you really think he's personally designing more shit as a PRODUCER than as a Director, let alone designer?
>>323883279
>What doesn't make sense is why Aonuma would take credit for something he didn't do.Which makes me question his whole involvement with the Water Temple
Or, alternativelyYou're wrong and are a faggot.
>>323883393
Holy shit could you grasp any harder.
>Layout =/= dungeon
>I did the original layout for each of the dungeons
>>323883576
So, the games in which Aonuma directly worked on designing dungeons, enemies, etc., had better dungeons, but the games in which he took an advisory role overseeing the project had worse dungeons, to the end that it's all Aonuma's fault the dungeons in the games he's directed sucked?
>>323883810
>Nigger, you didn't even know what his role was and directly praised the feature he had the most direct control over.
Except all these people who have provided examples where others worked with him on dungeon design. And Aonuma even contradicted himself on what parts he worked on.
You're argument is falling apart. Not that you will stop crying and defending him.
>>323882842
A problem i found in Twilight Princess where instead of slowly opening more of the dungeon or finding a route to the end you just get to the boss room and then the dungeon's gimmick forces you to have to circumvent it somehow. And it happens alot.
The Statue puzzle in ToT you have to circumvent the entire Temple for.
Yeta being a forgetful dipshit in Snowpeak ruins.
The DDragon literally burning your bridges in CitS
And of course the strangely familiar bit in Arbiter's where four ghosts kep you from getting to the second area.
Dungeon items are a different thing entirely. I actually think Twilight handled it better than Wind Waker but there's an awful lot of dungeon items that are used for only the dungeon they're gotten in. Basically it works like this.
>Intro rooms where you're introduced to the general gist of the dungeon
>Area before the dungeon item where you're introduced to what you'll be messing with but can't really do it on cue (The statue/Weight puzzles in Temple of Time being a good example)
>Get the dungeon item
>Rest of the dungeon is big tutorial on how to use said item
/End wall of Text
>>323883889
>Except all these people who have provided examples where others worked with him on dungeon design. And Aonuma even contradicted himself on what parts he worked on.
No, he didn't. Unless fucking AGTC is your source, in which case you might as well fuck off because as >>323883680 pointed out, he's FUCKING CRAZY.
>>323883886
>So, the games in which Aonuma directly worked on designing dungeons, enemies, etc., had better dungeons
Except I said the exact opposite.
>but the games in which he took an advisory role overseeing the project had worse dungeons
I think Minish Cap and Skyward Sword had better dungeons than Wind Waker or Twilight Princess.
Your point only really works with the DS Zeldas which he didn't specifically direct. But they're so bad that no one should be using them as an example for anything.
>ITT: STOP PICKING ON AONUMA GUYS!
Little tip to the Aonuma lover. Even if you had a solid point, yelling and screaming at everyone in the thread isn't going to get people to agree with you. It just makes you seem defensive and desperate.
>>323883994
>Except I said the exact opposite.
You brought OoT as the example of better dungeons. The one where he designed most of them.
>actual discussion about devs and game design
even if it's yelling and screaming, I'm proud of you /v/
>>323883962
>Rest of the dungeon is big tutorial on how to use said item
this wouldn't be a big issue if there weren't a ton of items that were rarely used outside of their respective dungeon
>>323883962
I don't know, OoT felt the same for me. There's only a couple ways you can go at any given time in about any dungeon in either game, and only one isn't a dead end/shortcut back/etc. and leads forward, and it is most often walled by a locked door that requires you find a key in the aforementioned dead end areas.
In OoT, you get the same "tutorial" by being walled until you perform some task with the item you just acquired, usually something as simple as the door you entered being locked and the item allowing you to unlock it in some manner. There are previously unsolvable puzzles that are now solvable, and every boss requires use of the dungeon's item to beat if I'm not mistaken.
>>323865414
Well technically it was all single items+wall painting shit.
As a matter of fact most of the dungeons managed to utilize the wall painting thing in some really great ways. Much better than the dungeon items themselves.
>>323884258
Technically, Bongo Bongo has nothing to do with the Hover Boots, but that's just as well. Doing anything with the boots is awkward as hell.
>>323883994
>Except I said the exact opposite.
You cited OoT's dungeons, specifically ones he fucking worked on, like the Water Temple, as being superior to TP's dungeons because Aonuma was the director of TP.
>>323878692
>Ocarina of Time had tons of things you did that didn't relate to the item you got in a dungeon
>This is one of the dozens of reasons Twilight Princess was such an underwhelming game. Because most of the dungeon design was just bashing things, hitting a switch or using that one item.
>>323880649
>Just the four Poes in the Forest Temple, each with their own style of puzzle, already had more variety than the majority of Aonuma dungeons
>Which again, is way more unique and cryptic than anything in an Aonuma Zelda.
You're so fucking stupid it hurts.
>Your point only really works with the DS Zeldas which he didn't specifically direct.
My point? My only point is disproving your completely ill-informed point. Please don't act like you weren't the one trying desperately to prove a point after being thoroughly BTFO.
>>323884084
>You brought OoT as the example of better dungeons.
Actually someone else said Twilight Princess had more variety than Ocarina of Time. I just responded to him by saying I felt it was the opposite.
>The one where he designed most of them.
Read the thread. This time without calling everyone a fucking moron for providing sources that contradict yours.
>>323884597
>Read the thread. This time without calling everyone a fucking moron for providing sources that contradict yours.
No one has done any such thing. You are the one that needs to re-read the thread, because the deranged cultist (who, if you're not familiar with these threads, is an actual crazy person who thinks he has access to real-life occult mysteries) read Koizumi pointing out that the interface was his job and derived a suitably insane theory about Aonuma stealing credit over the dungeon.
There is no other source at any point saying anything at all that resembles what you're claiming.
You're doing nothing but backpedalling because you praised "Aonuma Dungeons" while crying about how much you hated "Aonuma Dungeons."
>>323884597
>Actually someone else said Twilight Princess had more variety than Ocarina of Time. I just responded to him by saying I felt it was the opposite.
No you didn't. You brought up OoT first: >>323878692
>>323884597
>Actually someone else said Twilight Princess had more variety than Ocarina of Time. I just responded to him by saying I felt it was the opposite.
By saying "Aonuma Zeldas" have shit dungeons compared to OoT when Aonuma designed the fucking dungeons in OoT. And that wasn't even the case, you brought up OoT first and bashed "Aonuma Zeldas" of your own volition.
And I disagree anyway, and provided several examples, such as Snowpeak and Palace of Twilight. Creative design, good use of them item you find there and the mechanics used to progress through the dungeon are represented in-story, such as Snowpeak's soup or rescuing monkeys to build a monkey-chain in the forest temple.
>>323882693
I think I may have solved another mystery.
>Miyamoto: We had 6 directors working on Majora’s Mask, just doing game design. There were even more directors in addition to them, but it was those 6 individuals that were involved in creating the foundation of the game. Aonuma was the supervising director, Koizumi worked on the sub-events and player-related aspects, Takano was in charge of the script, Usui was involved with the dungeons, and Yamada was the head of system management. Finally, Kawagoe served as the cutscene director.
>Usui
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,53612/
>Miyamoto: In Ocarina of Time, Aonuma mainly worked on the dungeons, and he also directed Marvelous – Another Treasure Island. For Majora’s Mask, however, he took on the role of supervising director, and was put in charge of the entire overworld, to boot.
>Aonuma: To put it simply, I was responsible for the fairy-tale sections, and Koizumi was responsible for creating realistic depictions of the lives of the townspeople. I tried to emulate the fantasy atmosphere we had in Ocarina of Time…
This explains who Aonuma is talking about in the post I'm replying to. Usui. And it explains why the overworld blocks you off for no reason (Great Bay makes sense. Snowhead and Ikana Canyon do not). Aonuma wanted you to figure it out, like a 'puzzle.' It also reveals who was really behind MM. Spoiler: Shiggy.
I'm not sure how on earth I found this interview. It's not even up on her site unless you have the URL. So you better save it if you want to refer to it again.
http://www.glitterberri.com/majoras-mask/staff-interview/zelda-is-always-bringing-something-new-to-the-table/
>>323885168
>And I disagree anyway, and provided several examples, such as Snowpeak
You mean the dungeon with not one but three sliding block puzzles? And its one big circle to get around a locked door in the starting room?
I'm sorry, but that is in my opinion the worst designed dungeon in the entire series. And before you respond with another two page post, I know you disagree. Tough shit.
>>323885487
Also, note that Usui is from the SM64 course team.
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (1998) (Course - Level Design)
Super Mario 64 (1996) (Course Designers)
IT ALL MAKES SENSE.
>>323868228
Yeah, I too want Zelda U to be piss poor easy as shit, have no hero mode from start, have 10 minute long dungeons and no sense of progression after handing me all the items from the start
>>323885635
Making the Block Puzzle completely different by just smashing one of the pieces was pretty cool. Repetitive but cool.
My main gripe is just how much of the dungeon hinges on Yeta and Yeto being unhelpful bastards.
>>323878692
Are you retarded? A lot of dungeons in TP require you to have another item or use certain other item to obtain a piece of heart.
What is Zelda truly about, /v/?
>>323885635
>And before you respond by actually explaining your point of view with critical thinking and examples, Tough shit
lel
I liked Snowpeak because the emphasis was not on combat, it was on puzzle-solving and navigating the dungeon. It was in a relatively unique setting with fairly interesting characters and your progression through the dungeon was framed nicely within the story.
There could be a simple explination to all of this arguing.
Zelda 64 had a 4 year development cycle where half of Nintendo eventually worked on it in order to finally get the game released. No one person had control over the whole game. It was a team effort. Plus it broke new ground for the series and 3D games as a whole. In other words, it took chances and didn't play it safe.
Its my personal opinion that the later games weren't looked at as a group project. More of an obligation. A development of all things they could 'safely' do to make a popular Zelda game. Majora's had a time mechanic and Wind Waker had a very controversial art style. But underneath this, they still played it pretty safe with the mechanics developed in Ocarina of Time. And the other games played it even more safe.
Miyamoto is right. Zelda just hasn't tried to do anything radically different since Ocarina. He claimed SKyward Sword was going to, but it really didn't besides the controls. Zelda U looks to be the same 'safe' game, trying to coax people in with a few flashy moves and a big overworld. But I'm sure the core gameplay and story focus from previous games will stay the same.
Maybe not that simple after all.
>>323886168
Making money for Nintendo (R) Corporation LLC
>>323886168
Originally: Just a simple fantasy story 'astold to you by your grandma next to the fire'.
Now: Endless Links fighting an immortal Gerudo spawn who is the reincarnation of a demon. All tied to a series of Zelda's who have little to do with the plot, yet is the focus. Also, LORE!
>>323886714
I meant more gameplay wise.
Is it about the puzzles or the action?
>>323886546
OoT had only a two and a half year dev cycle. This guys says it in this advert.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEP0nZDUk8I
>>323886546
Why can't it just be the fact that Zelda got a proper series "supervisor" after the Oracle games? Yes I know it means we can conveniently blame Aonuma for everything but before Wind Waker, Zelda barely had continuity let alone a constant.
It's a double edged sword. Stories/Worldbuilding have gotten more interesting (TP had a pretty unique look to it, like a waking dreamy thing) but the games themselves have gotten weird.
>>323883962
>Intro rooms where you're introduced to the general gist of the dungeon
>Area before the dungeon item where you're introduced to what you'll be messing with but can't really do it on cue (The statue/Weight puzzles in Temple of Time being a good example)
>Get the dungeon item
>Rest of the dungeon is big tutorial on how to use said item
This is general game design:
Introducing an element,
putting that element to use in a safe enviroment
Using that element with another element
using those elements in a new way
keep teaching new parts of the element
Boss battle where the player shows their mastery of said elements
basic game design. People are just getting wise to it.
>>323886840
It's always been the puzzles. Even most of the bosses are more puzzle than fight.
>>323886840
exploring.
I know the whole "exploring in caves" but seriously it's uniqueness was exploring, finding something cool, wanting to explore more to find more cool stuff. Anything that happened on the way was just an obstacle of exploring.
>>323886840
Zelda was about getting lost in a complex ancient world full of secrets. Or in other words, exploration. The unfortunate thing about the series is that over time the puzzles have gotten more and more obviously out of place. The original idea was for the puzzles to enhance immersion by providing a counter-balance to pure action, but now they're actively working against immersion by being insultingly easy and obviously shoehorned in.
>>323886840
Miyamoto contends that the Zelda games are about exploration. But I would argue that the games have mad less and less exploration as they progressed. Be it the fault of Aonuma, Koizumi or even Miyamoto. The point is, its more about story and lore than exploration these days.
And some people prefer the lore. Zelda obviously sells better and better with a focus on lore. But Star Trek also sells better with tons of explosions and lens flares. Doesn't make it true to Star Trek in my opinion.
>>323886840
I think Zelda is more about the adventure than "exploration". Exploration is probably better handled by Open World games because they throw away narrative in favor of big pointless empty worlds.
Maybe just don't overdo the linear aspect and end up like Skyward Sword.
>>323887534
>Zelda is mainly about story and lore now.
What the fuck are you talking about man? Nintendo always uses story as an excuse for gameplay, it's never been the main focus, no matter how you want to see it. And Lore they dont care about even a quarter than anybody does around here.
This is why they never listen to fans god damn.
>>323865414
>expecting a good Zelda game
>after ALBW
>and the two DS games
>and Skyward Sword
>and Twilight Princess
>>323887534
>Miyamoto
see>>323885487
>>323878215
can I get a source for that Miyamoto quote? I couldn't find anything where he says dragon quest games are the stand of quality he shoots for
