When you get a mushroom, it starts moving.
This presents a risk reward challenge.
>Risk: Lose mushroom, accidentally die
>Reward: Can now break blocks, and take an extra hit
This is the same with stars, they move in a jumping pattern, but give invincibility
So why is it that all the other powerups are stationary?
I just find this lack of consistency to be a bit strange.
Thoughts?
Shouldn't the more powerful powerups be even harder to get?
The fireflower in SMB is often in hard to reach areas, probably intentionally.
In SMW Yoshi is stationary, but runs off if you get hurt, providing a nice challenge if you make a mistake.
Good design choices.
In NSMBU there are the flying squirrels that carry powerups, they're a bit difficult because you might miss and get hurt.
I think the design choices in SMB 1,2,3 and World really highlight this type of design choice.
For instance, the way that the leaf for the tanuki suit power up works is similar.
Anyone wanna talk about vidya?
I can't remember how exactly it was in the older games, but I know in some of them grabbing a Fire Flower while small just made you big again. The challenge in that case is about staying big in order to get even more powerful.
>>323164020
Leaves and feathers float as well.
>Game design thread
>on /v/
Sorry bro. Either you make an off topic/console war thread or your thread will be ignored.
>>323165006
On /v/? Fuck no.
>>323165708
They also go off screen pretty fast, unlike mushrooms that stay on the ground as long as they don't fall in a pit.
So you must be fast to get them. Same thing with NSMB propeller suit.
>>323165006
>>323166064
Pretty interesting and solid game design.
Really when you break it down, Mario games are filled with constant small diverse challenges that add up to a good experience.
>>323165889
>>323166014
>>323166145
I know it's a bit foolish, but I've been on /v/ for a decade.
The best way to discuss vidya on /v/ is to make threads about it.
It's possible, don't give up hope.
Trump will be president. We can have hope again.
>>323166273
See, these are the things that make a game actually good.
Unfortunately, these things are invisible to the eye of most players that can't see past graphics and story.
>>323166628
It's really magic when you see it in action.
I think the exact opposite of this design is QTEs.
For example, in Mario all you do is run and jump. So you need to get really good at running and jumping.
So they throw a bunch of different enemies at you, different platforms, and even the powerups give you a challenge of running and jumping to get the reward.
It's all training, and brings you all the way to the final level/boss in which you really fucking better have learned how to run and jump well.
Build the mechanics of your games into everything. Keep focused on your design.
>>323166932
>For example, in Mario all you do is run and jump. So you need to get really good at running and jumping.
That's a very important point, a point many devs miss these days.
The heart of the game, the basic mechanics of the gameplay, MUST be simple. Then you can add power ups and shit but in the end only your basic skills should matter.
Your skills should be the same through all the game, what changes is the design of the challenges in front of you, the level design, the enemy placement and so on.
Too many devs nowadays want to do the extra mile by giving you a character that are virtually skilled in a lot of things. As a result, you have games filled with QTEs where the main character can perform crazy shit by pressing a single button. That's like the complete opposite of good game design.
>>323166410
I will post just to promote a little your thread
>>323166932
>>323167421
QTEs hardly exist for a gameplay purpose, they're almost purely just so the devs can sneak more cutscenes in. Even the game that invented QTEs, Dragon's Lair, did it in order to use Bluth's animation in the game. So they literally are the opposite of gameplay design.
>>323164020
I never before realized how many powerups have been made specifically for one game, and then are never seen again.
>>323164020
>mushroom can move in a different direction in smb3 depending on the side of block you hit
Who decided this was a good idea?
The first goomba is positioned in a way that first time players are likely to hit the mushroom block while jumping over it. The mushroom travels to the right and will bounce off the pipe right into the player.
>>323168490
That's actually a great idea, and an example of
>technology
But it makes sense doesn't it? It increases the challenge and makes it more fun. If you understand the mechanic you can use it to your advantage by literally changing the direction Mario faces when you hit the block.
>>323164020
collecting powerups become trivial after a while
also powerups better than a mushroom are usually hidden
also this is probably the biggest reason: blocks that contain mushrooms have their own level design centered around making the mushroom chase interesting. not having it move lets you get on with the level because theres only so many ways you can make getting a sliding powerup interesting.
you could then argue that maybe you could make it interesting by having the powerups have different behaviors but then that's all way too much level design which would go to waste because you can grab the powerup while it is emerging from the block once you have any amount of skill in the game.
>>323168490
I like that
>>323168534
Literally flawless game design.
This is how you teach someone, without forcing it down their throats. You create a situation in which it's highly likely that what you want to happen will happen.
You give them room for error, freedom, fun. But you still make sure they understand the basic concept before moving farther into the game.
Mario, Zelda, Metroid. They all do this.
>>323168686
Now there's a tutorial explaining things.Well, that's not entirely honest. Older games had tutorials too. They were called manuals.
>>323168782
And it was better that way
>>323168782Manuals were better because they weren't mandatory.
>>323169007
Manuals were good because they were physical, had extra art, and could easily build on the game world without forcing it on the player, and ruining the pace of the game.
I used to love reading manuals on the way home, shit was the best.
>>323168838
>>323169007
I think what we get at is a point where as games become complicated, it becomes less and less possible to teach about their gameplay through the game itself, without a tutorial system in place. Zelda tries to strike a balance with "give player a new toy, and make them use it to get out of the room", but there's still a fair amount of text in place to explain the game systems.The trick I think is can you understand the game and it's functionality from simply playing it, or is a baseline of knowlege needed in order for the game to be playable. Super Mario? Very self explanatory. A massive RPG? Maybe less so. It's a tough balance to strike, we're just in an age of tutorialization because games are so complicated that the developers fear that nobody will "get" it unless they explain it.
>>323169350
>Zelda tries to strike a balance with "give player a new toy, and make them use it to get out of the room"
Yeah but they fuck that up with tutorials making that entirely pointless.
>>323169350
I don't think games are all that more complicated that they used to be.
They peaked in complexity in the 90's, and have only devolved since there.
Making tutorials utterly useless in most games.
>>323164020
A lot of the more powerful powerups are newer and are somewhat based on the fireflower which was stationary. Someone mentioned but that originally the ff is usually in hard to reach areas, but the newer designers didnt think of that, they just made stationary powerups in the same vein as the fireflowers that were more successful
>>323169910
Right, I've noticed that power ups seem to be more plentiful in New Super Mario Bros, but also there are far more opportunities to lose those powerups. It's a good balance.
>>323169569
The tutorials are for game systems, like opening menus and changing gear, looking around, etc. There aren't tutorials about how to use the item beyond "set it to one of the buttons and go!" The escape from the room is the item tutorial. I agree with you though that they spend a ton of time handholding through the game systems side of things.
>>323170209
Not just that, but the game being more multiplayer focused changes the dynamics of power ups significantly
>>323170807
Many people shit on the NSMB games for its visual style and yet it is a little gem of game design, especially NSMBU among others. Crafting a level that works for not just one but 4 players at the same time is really hard.
>>323170209
Personally I don't like how when you get hit you both go back to Super Mario instead of small Mario and have an item in reserve. One or the other is fine but having both makes you a too strong.
>>323170807
Well, the multiplayer is where the game fails in my eyes.
Making it so that players bump into each other completely eliminates the natural difficulty of the game. Instead of each player facing the same challenges on their own and helping each other, instead you have players causing new problems and getting in each others' way.
I'll never understand why they made it this way, multiplayer is almost unplayably difficult. Maybe the people I play with just suck?
>>323171418
Yeah, there are definitely criticisms of the game, but I feel like a lot of the hate comes from people who didnt play it with friends
>>323171418
The hate for the NSMB series is completely unfounded. There are 4 (plus Luigi) games total. Over what, like 10 years?
People claim the games are stale and have no personality. Sure, the style has stopped evolving, but there's a lot of heart in these games still. Especially the crazy things that happen in certain stages.
It's literally just bandwagon hopping.
COD can have 15 games in 5 years, but god forbid Nintendo makes sure that each of their consoles (DS, 3DS, Wii, and Wii U) each has a dedicated 2D Mario.
The fucking horror.
why were the galaxy powerups such fucking garbage
>spring mario
>drill mario
>cloud mario
>small, kind, thoughtful thread
>video game discussion
>it's about Mario
>mostly fucking NSMB of all things
I applaud you /v/.
We really can have nice things.
>>323171797
When you compare them to the powerups from 64 they're a lot more creative, but not nearly as memorable.
Bee Mario was fun.
>>323171797
I actually liked cloud Mario, creating your own platforms is an interesting concept.
nintendo died gameplay wise when they stopped balancing their games and stopped realizing games have to be somewhat challenging to be entertaining/fun/not so easy its boring
a good article on the subject
http://gengame.net/2012/09/nintendo-does-not-understand-the-appeal-of-challenge-in-mario-games/
>>323171846
You spoke too soon. Here's the neo Nintendo autist.
>>323171846
Mario threads tend to be some of the best on /v/ i've noticed. Always good discussion and comfy times to be had appreciating the series.
>>323171982
>Nintendo doesn't make their games challenging
>picture is the NSMB series
Opinion discarded.
Have you ever actually played the games? The difficulty curve is near perfect.
And if you're trying to get all of the secrets and star coins then it becomes extremely difficult.
Play games before you just parrot other people's opinions.
Not gonna bother to read your crappy article either.
There is literally not a mainline Mario game that does not have significant challenge.
>>323171926
I'm still trying to work out why the Invisible Cap lets you walk through certain walls but all the enemies can still see and hurt you
>>323172157
The problems begin when fights between open world supporters and linear ones start.
>>323172237
Cus video games.
Why does eating a fucking flower let you shoot fire from your fists?
>>323172306
>>323172330
No I mean why doesn't the 'Invisible' cap doesn't make you invisible but instead lets you do other shit like walking through walls
>>323172473
obviously it makes you invisible to the walls so they can't see you and block your path.
>>323164243
>The fireflower in SMB is often in hard to reach areas, probably intentionally.
I though it was in the same places as the mushroom, only it spawned only if you already had the mushroom (otherwise, mushroom)
>>323171507
Depends on how you play really, either you'll be actively sabotaging each other or using the bumping to your advantage I don't think it's inherently bad or good, just another layer of complexity
>>323172438
Well, I guess a mix of open world and linear design is a hard concept. They are like yin and yang, complete opposites.
>>323171982
Except that also came with luigi u bundled in with it
>>323169910
I disagree. The Fire Flower doesn't move because it's a reward for playing well already. In SMB it's because when you get hit you always go back to Small Mario. You can only get one if you already took a risk for a Super Mushroom and didn't get hit.
In say, SMB3, the strategic placement may be more true, but it still doesn't move, unlike the Super Leaf, because it isn't as "powerful" as being able to fly and potentially skip tough parts of levels. See also level design preventing you from flying.
I'd say it's more Mario design getting more casual, levels and power ups both included.
>>323172576
It does, that anon doesn't know what he's talking about.
>>323164020
Nah. Fire Flower is a reward for holding on to the Mushroom powerup, especially later in the game when that becomes more of a challenge. So the philosophy is still there, just in a different way.
The later powerups just move in unique ways, which is probably just because the development team had more technology available to them, which allowed them to have more fun with the way that powerups moved.
>>323172897
The open wolds in Mario games are relatively linear already. You just think they aren't as you play. Sometimes you're able to do different missions than the one you started the stage on.
I think both styles of play are good.
The three main styles of Mario games need to continue:
2D
3D Mission Based
3D Linear
So, where the fuck is the open world game for Wii U?
We're not seriously only getting 3D World right? It was great, but didn't scratch the same itch as 64, Sunshine, or Galaxy 1 and 2.
I'm waiting Nintendo.
>>323172473
I don't think Japan is clear on the difference between invisible and intangible
Look at MMBN invis chips making you intangible but still somewhat visible
>>323169145
Japan got the best guides, too.
>>323173173
>or Galaxy 1 and 2
Those are pretty much as linear as 3D World, pal.
Besides, we didn't get a 3D linear game during gen 5 or 6. Only open ones.
>>323173173
>We're not seriously only getting 3D World right?
I think you and I both know the answer to that and it disappoints me just as much as it does you. I'm really surprised that they didn't make a DLC/expansion for 3D World like they did New Super Luigi U, I would have much preferred that to shit like Captain Toad.
At least with the fire flower I can see it as a reward for not getting hit, while being big mario, and the way that you once you get hit you go back to mini Mario makes it clear that having a Fire flower is something only skilled players can have for a good while. It's a bonus, not an upgrade from normal mario.
That's why old games where harder and better desingned.
Big mario was supposed to be the standard, with tiny mario being a punishment and fire mario being a reward.
That's why new games are so easy, they are built so reward mario is now the standard. That's why there's so many enimies, so people can use their power ups on them, and also why getting hit gets you back to big mario and why there's Power ups every 20 steps.
Just think about it, it's nearly imposible even for 5 year olds to finish the first NSMB level without a special shroom, be it the nut thingy from the new one or the helicopter one from the Wii one. While in the original making it with the fire flower in your first try must meant that you probably took it pretty slow.
>>323173154
The fire flowers spawn in the same place as mushrooms. But generally speaking the location of those power ups end up being in harder to reach areas.
For instance, it's likely that you will need a mushroom at certain parts of stages, especially after things were really difficult, or at the beginning of the stage.
These are the "mushroom" dispensing ones. Sure you can get an easy fireflower there, but generally you won't be in that state, and if you are it's a reward.
Now, the "fireflower" blocks are generally located after these "mushroom" blocks. These are usually harder to get, and involve more risk.
Try it yourself, it's pretty easy to spot. Statistically some blocks are much more likely to give out mushrooms rather than fireflowers, hence Nintendo's ability to add difficulty to obtaining the better powerups, while keeping them stationary.
It's beautiful fucking game design.
>>323165314
what happens if you jump into it?
>>323173402
>shit like Captain Toad.
So it's true, we turly don't deserve good games.
>>323173686
You feel pain.
>>323173548
That's an increasing difficulty curve in general, but I see what you mean. It's less a "Fire Flower block" and more a power up that is placed in a difficult area in a general risk-reward situation.
You got hit and went back to Small Mario? Gotta risk dying to get back to Super Mario. Want a Fire Flower? Better be good at this game or else you're back to Small Mario.
>>323173396
We both know that 3D World is extremely more linear than Galaxy 1 and 2.
That's like saying Final Fantasy 13's linearity is comparable to the previous Final Fantasy games.
Dressing up the world to feel more open and alive and not like a floating ball in space does a lot to visually improve the experience. Gives you a sense of space. 2D Mario games do this as well, but 3D is much more capable in this aspect.
>>323173402
Woah woah woah woah woah friend.
Captain Toad was a fantastic game. So much content, so much difficulty, and such a low price.
I'd much rather the Galaxy devs vent their creative frustration with gems like Captain Toad, than make DLC for 3D World.
>>323173941
I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment anon.
It just feels so damn good to play a game that understands this concept so well.
>>323164020
>So why is it that all the other powerups are stationary?
Why is it that you think you can be so wrong and get away with it?
>>323174068
Anons in the thread have already discussed this. Why certain powerups are stationary and why others are not.
You should try actually discussing things instead of just saying someone is wrong.
It'll make /v/ a lot better if you would increase the quality of your posts from shitposting to something decent.
If you can't do that, then lurk more.
>>323174068
It's called honest bait. It's a mistake OP makes on purpose to lure more people into his thread.
>>323174756
No, that's called pretending to be retarded.
I made the OP without thinking deeply enough about the powerups.
Then after discussion I realized that I wasn't correct, but was able to understand the game more deeply, and have a good conversation with other anons.
I know you're trying to speak up for me, but stop fucking labeling things as some type of bait.
In fact, stop using meme's altogether. Just say what you want to say, and we can make /v/ great again.
There is a reason we value original content.
>>323168782
>old games didn't have tutorials
I hate this meme. Games on the SNES and earlier had tutorials out the ass. Stop regurgitating this lie.
>>323175269
I won't listen to a guy that unironically votes for Trump. And by the way, using the word meme is a meme itself.
You better stay back on topic.
>>323175498
The tutorials were often short and/or optional if there was one. Unless you count the first area being really easy.
>>323172237
I don't know anon but it was fun combining it with metal cap in dire dire docks
>>323171926
>Bee Mario was fun
I fucking hated Bee Mario, more than Spring Mario
GOOD GALAXY POWER UPS:
>Stone Mario
>Cloud Mario
>Flying Mario
>Ice Mario
>>323175554
>not voting for Trump
>b-but meme is a meme
Please try one or more of the following:
1. Leave 4chan
2. Kill yourself
3. Stop being a faggot, vote for Trump, stop using illogical fallacies, and create good threads on /v/
>>323176170
Ghost Mario was fun to be honest.
>>323176363
Wew, what a crap post. Here, have a meme, you like them, it seems, memes like Trump.
I remember thinking climbing all over her was the coolest thing ever.
>>323164020
Because you absolutely require those power ups to beat the level.
>>323178008
No
ITT: OP has autism and wants to share it with us.
>>323171669
It's largely because NSMB2 and U were announced and released at the same time.
Didn't help that NSMB2 was kind of a piece of shit, offered nothing new (not even new music, just lots of bahs) and its coin gimmick was pointless. It was just a miserable, uninspired game overall.
I can guarantee if it was just NSMBU that released in 2012, the series would still have a good reputation.
>>323171797
Cloud Mario is based.
Rock Mario's okay.
Drill is inoffensive.
Spring is shit tier.
Boo is boring.
Bee is okay.
Ice flower is based
>>323179627
I think so too, the release was much more spaced out in Japan though.
