If someone rolls behind you in Smash 4 there is virtually nothing you can do to punish them and you will have to accept the daddy sakurai standard roll grab d- throw u-air. Only way to go is to predict the roll long before hand.
>>322224165
Depends.
If you have a good side b like Falcon or Ganondorf you can immediately side b in the other direction when they roll in. Or you can just walk everywhere. But yes out of a dash there's no punishment for a roll in beyond your side b if your character has one that can cover rolls.
>>322224165
Just roll in either direction after they do.
Not hard
>>322226175
But then it becomes a *teleports behind you* war until you reach the ledge.
Down smash. It's designed to hit both sides for a reason.
>>322226394
This, and just walk never dash since your options out of a dash are abysmal in this game.
>>322224165
You can do whatever you want with them if they roll behind you, you just have to read them doing it.
>>322226458
This reminds me, were Smash Attacks, besides USmash, impossible out of a dash in previous games as well?
I believe the correct option when an opponent rolls behind you is to get out your Gamecube and play Melee.
Smash 4 is a casual game (this isn't a bad thing fuck off) it's meant to be played with a bunch of friends while having fun. Trying to take it seriously like it's an actual competitive game is dumb as fuck. If you really need competition just play Melee, the game that was clearly designed with much more options in a 1v1 scenario.
>>322226650
Straight out of dash? Yes.
In Melee you can cancel your dash with a crouch and then immediately do a Smash attack though, not sure about 64.
>mfw shield into grab pretty much ruins this game
It trumps and negates any offensive whatsoever, so people just sit and wait on you.
Fuck this game.
>>322226394
This unless you're like Mewtwo or Ryu with facing forward DSmashes.
>>322226650
Melee has a variety of options, 64 didn't have the ten hour long turn around skidding out of a dash and rolls were terrible so you could actually end your dash and attack in the other direction by the time the roll ended. Brawl and Sm4sh have those shitty skidding turnaround from dash with no options to negate them.
>>322224165
>virtually nothing you can do to punish them
>>322224165
>literally every attack in the game can be stopped by shielding except charged shield breakers, which can be stopped by perfect shielding
When playing as Little mac I actually do manage to punish the rolling menance.
Jab Jab D-tilt. They shield the d-tilt inbetween jab cancel and roll behind me. but I already run back with a pivot F-smash or side B in reverse.
>>322227334
>you can perfect shield a shield breaker
So what's the point in it being a shield breaker?
>>322226971
>>322224165
I play fox so I can just space nair to bait out a shield grab and punish and I can punish Someone rolling behind me with up tilt and usually get 5 more and like 40% off of it.
Fox and pikachu are like the only good characters worth a damn in that game everyone else is just down throw auto win combos or cancerous amounts of camp
>>322226458
>your options out of a dash are abysmal
Clearly you have no idea how to play this game, and I'm going to call you out for it.
I have a friend who plays Fox, and another friend who plays Captain Falcon. Both of these characters have a TON of options out of dash attacks, INCLUDING smash attacks, and simply because they often retain some modicum of momentum during these maneuvers, they're often extremely safe to do. If they're multi-hit smash attacks (like Falcon's u-smash), you're boned if you're not shielding.
Similarly, some characters have fucking spectacular grab range out of dash attacks, and those grabs often lead into true combos.
Anyway, I'll concede that if movement speed is slow there's not many options out of dash, but most characters have movement speed equal to, or greater than, Mario, and so can still pull off shit out of dash with ease. In fact, that's pretty much 70% of the Mario/Luigi metagame, is to abuse momentum out of dash and u-smash to cover both sides and kill.
At any rate, to discuss OP's concerns, rolls were recently nerfed, so they're not as bad as they used to be. The major issue with defensive options is that they weren't all equally nerfed.
Air dodges are still as OP as ever (if you're one of the many characters in the game that can recover from damn near anywhere you're practically invincible while approaching the platform), sidestepping was designed to be countered by moves that hit multiple times (but I often have sidestepping opponents completely avoid my attacks for no discernible reason other than this game's defensive options were programmed like shit), and even though shields were generally nerfed, there's only a handful of attacks in the game that can GENUINELY be used to punish shields, and most of them you can grab a snack and still be back in time to sidestep or roll around it.
tl;dr: Rolls got a nerf, but defensive options all around still need major nerfing/reworking.
>>322224165
>Only way to go is to predict the roll long before hand.
So you mean being good at the game? Gotcha.
>>322224165
Mfw Link main and edge guard shield grab projectile spam.
The salt is palpable
>>322226854
>>322228005
>Clearly you have no idea how to play this game, and I'm going to call you out for it.
By all means do then. Explain how having so few options out of dashing is not abysmal.
>>322226854
>playing melee on your own when you can play smash 4 online with friends
i-...It's so much better!!!!!
Faggot cunt
>>322226854
This.
If you`re still playing that shitty game instead of one of the previous entries in the series that were actually good then you're just a sadist.
>>322228178
But I just did.
I used the wrong wording on some of them 'cause I'm half awake (like adding 'attack' at the end of dash a few times), but in case you hate reading, or want further information, here are a list of things you can do out of a dash:
>shield
>sidestep
>u-smash
>d-smash
>f-smash
>most characters have safe grabs out of dashes (Luigi, Falcon, Fox to some extent, etc.)
>jump
>sidestep
>most tilts
>jab combo
You can do pretty much everything out of dash, but it's clear that you don't really understand how to do so, so you chalk it up to having no options, when the game gives you pretty much every option you could possibly need.
smash 4 has a lot of problem but rolls aren't one of them.
stop being a scrub
>>322228457
>But I just did.
But nothing you said explained how having so few options out of dashing is not abysmal.
And here's the actual list:
>shield
>u-smash
>most characters have safe grabs out of dashes (Luigi, Falcon, Fox to some extent, etc.)
>jump
>side B
>up b
>dash attack
>listing sidestep twice
kek
So yes, your options out of dash are abysmal, especially when we're talking about punishing rolls in as OP is asking about.
>>322224165
>rolls behind you
>unsheathes katana
>>322226854
>Melee
Right. Because I should want to play a buggy, rushed mess of a game simply because you're nostalgic for it.
Smash 4 is getting more and more competitive. It's not the campy, slow mess that it used to be. People are discovering tech for it weekly, and a lot of it's getting used in real matches, and it's opening up the metagame. Hell, recent tier lists are starting to introduce new characters that people thought were shit initially because of the tech that's getting discovered for said characters.
On the other hand, Melee is stagnant and hasn't seen any real change in years. Any technology people manage to find every other year for the game is pointless to utilize in a real competitive match because nothing is ever going to beat the same technology that EVERY CHARACTER CAN UTILIZE. Even then, the roster of characters that are viable in Melee can be counted on one hand, using anything else usually gets you slaughtered competitively, and playing Melee at a competitive level requires hours of practice for years, and that's if you're lucky enough to get buddy-buddy with someone in the competitive Melee scene.
Not that you'd ever want to.
>>322228867
If you're going to bait at least be subtle.
>>322228725
If you can't do anything with even that list of options, then you're a shit player and should go back to Melee. After all, you only need to wavedash to win at that game.
>>322228725
>your options out of dash are abysmal, especially when we're talking about punishing rolls
... Why are you dashing to punish a roll, exactly?
The only way it would be impossible to punish a roll would be AFTER a dash attack with a roll AWAY from the attacker, when OP clearly said
>if someone rolls behind you
In any other event you should be standing, not dashing.
>>322228937
>>322228918
>>322228993
>... Why are you dashing to punish a roll, exactly?
Why are you being retarded to post on 4chan?
>dashing
>they roll in
>???
Unless you plan to just walk all over the stage at all times.
So yes, unless you have some new info on why your options out of dash are not shit, then why even reply to the post stating that? Why even be in the thread if you have nothing to contribute at all?
>>322228867
>Viable Melee characters
Fox,Falco, Marth and Puff also have shown to be capable of winning a major
>meanwhile in Sm4sh
Sheik and ZSS
your bait is fucking shit
>mr game and watch's 9 can be shielded
BRAVO SAKURAI
R
A
V
O
S
A
K
U
R
A
I
>>322229241
At least bucket breaks shields.
>>322228867
NO! MELEE HAS BEEN EVOLVING GREATLY! JUST RECENTLY IT GOT A NEW TIER LIST IN FACT! FOX WAS THE HIGHEST RANK, WHICH SURPRISED EVERYONE REALLY! FOX DOESN'T WIN TOURNAMENTS VERY OFTEN AFTER ALL!
>>322229189
>I have no real response to this argument.
>"YOU'RE RETARDED!"
Thanks for giving me a reason to ignore you, anon.
>daddy sakurai
>>322229401
Just like you ignored how I just completely shut you down?
Alrighty then, whatever satisfies your autistic need to have the last word. You've got nothing, so you'll say nothing.
>>322224165
don't play For Glory, rolls are impossible to react to online
>>322229189
>Dashing
>they roll in
>???
In the scenario you just presented, there is no reason why rolling in would be unpunishable.
>Why are you being retarded to post on 4chan
Take your own advice.
>>322229521
Except that your options out of dash are insufficient for punishing this, as has been noted sicne the beginning.
So you've just come back around to the beginning of the entire post chain, bravo.
>>322229217
>Puff never wins majors
>Marth hasn't won a major in years
>Fox and Falco fucking EVERYWHERE
MEANWHILE, IN MELEE TOURNAMENTS..
>Sheik everywhere, too
kek, faggot, go back to your old ass game.
>characters actually winning Smash 4 national tournaments
>We Tech Those
>Diddy/Ganondorf
>Tipped Off 11
>Sheik/Marth
>Paragon
>Fox/Falco
SMASH FOUR CONFIRMED FOR MELEE 2.0
>He dashes like an idiot
>He forgot most Down Smashes were designed against Rolls
>He forgets that rolls have lag
>He's still using the Down throw up air meme when only Diddy does this
People who talk like this either didn't play Sm4sh or is pretending Sm4sh now is what it was back in Launch
Stop
>>322229217
No, a unbiased person would say this.
Viable characters in Melee:
Fox, Falco, Marth, and Puff.
Viable characters in Smash 4:
Pikachu, Ryu, Sheik, Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Sonic, and Diddy Kong.
I want sakurai to kill himself for ruining smash after the beautiful game that is melee.
>>322229664
Both of those are wrong
>>322229627
>when only diddy does this
Diddy does upthrow -> Bair/fair and then up air at higher percentage when that's all that will connect.
You can so dthrow to sideb kick at early percentage which does a LOT of damage
>>322229627
>He dashes like an idiot
>he uses a movement option the way it's intended, to traverse the stage
Yup.
>He forgot most Down Smashes were designed against Rolls
Not usable from dash and also never safe on shield.
>He forgets that rolls have lag
Variable between characters, most of which can get a shield up almost immediately.
>He's still using the Down throw up air meme when only Diddy does this
Because every top tier character has auto-combos/kill set-ups out of their throws, most out of down throw, this is a game based around grabbing because of this.
Do you even play this game, anon?
>>322229871
Nope
>>322229627
Tons of characters got shitty no skill autocombos in sm4sh.
>>322229574
These are punish options
Reverse Side-tilt, doesn't even require a read
Down smash, no read required if Dash attack was not attempted
Jump to Back-air, no read required if already mid air (like if you were planning a fair or nair)
Even if your retarded and went for a dash attack, a roll in would still not warrant any penalty or backlash because most attacks won't reach the distance between a whiffed Dash attack and a roll in.
Are you done?
>>322229975
yes
>>322229664
How many characters have won Sm4sh majors?
How many characters have won Melee majors?
Why?
>>322229664
>yoshi
>viable
Nope.
>>322229956
>You can't down smash from a dash
Except the C stick exists. Which means you can be running left, and then flick the c stick to down smash out of dash.
The hell are you talking about anon?
>>322230018
>Reverse Side-tilt, doesn't even require a read
Can't do that out of a dash. You need to go through the slow turnaround skidding animation first by which point it's too late.
>Down smash, no read required if Dash attack was not attempted
Can't do that out of a dash.
>Jump to Back-air, no read required if already mid air (like if you were planning a fair or nair)
If you jump first you may be too slow depending on the character.
So out of those, you've listed exactly one option, which may not even be viable.
And you think one option is not absolute shit?
>Are you done?
Yeah, I think I am, unless you've somehow got more dumb bullshit to spew out of your mouth-anus all over the thread.
>>322229956
>using movement option as intended
No, you can walk which leaves you with more options, or shorthop around, or even dash trot
>can't use dsmash while running to punish roll!
No shit, use an aerial / dash attack / upsmash, if you cant, just keep dashing and keep stage control
>shield almost immediately
Pls, I play fucking puff and can dash or walk to their roll's end position and rest them with her low speed before they can act out of the roll
Your last point means nothing
>>322230059
>How many characters have won Sm4sh majors?
Lets see, I know that Ryu won one.
Zero won some with Sheik and with Diddy Kong.
Nairo won one with Zero Suit.
At a doubles, Ganondorf won one. Don't remember who he was teamed up with.
And no, just cause Ganondorf won a major, doesn't mean I am going to consider him viable anon.
As for Melee, I know that Fox won one obviously.
Didn't Marth win one?
I think another is a toss up between Icies, or Puff, or Falco or something.
>>322230108
In Smash 4 he is. In Smash 4, 90% of Yoshi's moves have no endlag to them, so its very hard to punish him.
>>322230270
You can dash, hold, stick down and immediately do a smash out of it without stopping, its the same as dashing up smash but you need 1 extra input
Rolling slows the game down, sure. But rollers are predictable. Given time, you can adapt to other player's rolling habits and punish. If they roll on reaction to approaches, do either an empty hop in their face or run up and shield, then punish their roll. Dash cancelled u-smash/Pivot f-smash/d-smash/grab/delayed dash attacks/certain side Bs and up Bs are all ways of punishing.
>Marth
>Tfw Pivot tipper f-smashing people who try to roll behind me
>Luigi
>Tfw shoryukening people who roll away
>>322230452
Literally zero results at tournaments. Even ESAM got tricked by the yoshi is good meme, and just dropped him when he figured out he wasnt viable.
>>322230270
>Can't reverse side-tilt out of dash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0
please watch this video, you might be enlightened
>Can't down smash out of dash
>>322230112
>>322230112
C-stick in any direction but up gives you a dash attack.
>>322230314
>No, you can walk which leaves you with more options, or shorthop around, or even dash trot
Yeah, you can walk around the whole stage slowly, that'll be great for mix ups and keeping your opponent guessing and being hard to hit. Brilliant design.
>No shit, use an aerial / dash attack / upsmash, if you cant, just keep dashing and keep stage control
Only an aerial of these could possibly punish a roll in, which is what the OP is talking about.
>Pls, I play fucking puff and can dash or walk to their roll's end position and rest them with her low speed before they can act out of the roll
Roll in, you retard, not out. Fucking read.
And the last point means you're wrong.
>>322230801
You also can't pp out of dash. How stupid are you people? You don't even know your own shit game.
>>322226971
You should be spacing more.
>>322231065
>can't pp out of dash
Do you even know what foxtroting is?
god you're retarded, here... I'll post another one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azRrqKUJ-5o
this one covers dash dancing and fox trotting.
Fox trotting into a PP is completely possible
Now please, tell me how much I don't know about my game.
>>322231065
Nope. C-Stick down gives you down smash out of dash.
Prove me wrong.
Protip: You can't.
You can up smash or down smash out of dash.
>>322228725
You can reverse f-tilt, f-smash and grab too.
>There are people who still don't know how to perform pivot fsmashes or usmashes
>most characters have multiple safe moves on shield and real pressure games since october
>rolls have been nerfed
>the meta has evolved to be much faster where games last 2 minutes on average
>/v/ is literall fucking retarded and hasn't played or watched smash 4 since launch
>>322231065
>You also can't pp out of dash
Foxtrotting, you daft cunt
>autocombos
When will this meme die
>>322231382
You expect people who hate Smash 4 and shit all over it to talk about the facts and reality?
I cannot for the fucking life of me beat Cloud into Bowser no matter how predictable they are. This is the one matchup I can't win with him,it's so dumb. Any tips for this?
>>322231382
This.
Rolls have been nerfed, more shield stun has been added, the game has undergone tons of changes.
People that hate something do not do research for it, because they think the game didn't change, when each patch has changed things. Added characters have changed the meta as well.
You see the over powered characters getting crushed either by a unviable that suddenly became a lot better due to a patch, or a new character just destroying them because they don't yet know how to deal with them, plus because of them being actually good.
People were calling Ryu trash before, but someone good with him can jab lock you straight into a shoryuken to zero to death you.
DOWN SMASH
>>322226971
I play Ike, and as long as I space correctly, I can hit a shield with any aerial I want except dair (duh) and not get punished 99% of the time.
>>322231702
Literally nobody called ryu trash.
>>322231253
>You can up smash or down smash out of dash
Stop bullshitting. You can only up-smash out of a dash.
>prove me wrong
just boot up your damn game
>>322231736
KNOCK OUT KNOCK OUT KNOCK OUT
>Competitive game needs constant patches just to stay afloat
No thanks.
>>322229217
Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Ryu, Mario, Diddy, Rosalina, Sonic, Fox and MK are all good, viable characters.
>>322232046
Is there something wrong with fixing problems and adjusting the balance?
>>322231889
Dash into down smash is my favorite move to do. I do it with Bowser Jr. all the time dude. You just run, let go of run while dashing, and just flick the c stick down to down smash out of dash.
>>322231702
>People were calling Ryu trash before
au contraire
People were calling Ryu OP when he first came out
>>322232234
Unless you can do that as fast as with up-smash or dash attack, you're not doing it out of the dash. That'd be like saying you can cancel dash into jab.
>>322231841
>>322232268
The most common complaint for Ryu was "I have to learn fucking street fighter inputs to use a Smash character? NOBODY's going to learn that, he is going to be bottom tier."
>Yet another thread showing why Smash 4 is a defensive nightmare that's mostly boring to play.
Man. What a damn shame..
Hey guys!!! Do you like my EPIX FOR GLORY VID? IT HAS MEMES AND "JOKES" EVERY 5 SECONDS XD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6un7p9CNcYY&ab_channel=AlpharadBut seriously, I'm sick of these faggot ass videos. Is there someone who makes good smash videos without being a fucking tryhard memester?
>>322232297
>Unless you can do that as fast as with up-smash
You can.
You can also do this apparently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtMBrKq_iCE
Smash 4 has wavedashing to a small degree.
>>322231683
Are you the Bowser or the Cloud?
>>322232196
What good is balance when the gameplay is boring as fuck
>bair
>reverse ftilt
>reverse fsmash
>nair in most cases
>reverse dtilt/utilt in some cases
>dash attack in some cases
>side b or other specials in some cases
>pivot grab
>turnaround grab
>>322232551
Bowser.
>>322232502
Mad dawg go home.
>>322232363
While you're on the mark with the "nobody's going to take the time to learn him," part, I heard a lot more of how people would probably fuck up their recovery than him being bottom tier.
>>322232583
What is it called when a game is more fun to play then it is to watch it?
Its called a video game.
>>322232583
If you don't give a shit about the game in the first place, why are you whining about the company who made it making fixes and adjsutments to it?
>>322232648
Hm that's a tough one. For some reason I know more about how to play Cloud than Bowser, despite playing him every now and then since release.
What sort of shit do Clouds do that gives you such trouble? Maybe I can help fill the gap in your gameplan by knowing that.
>>322232690
Is.. is that a reference?
Look, man, I just want some good smash videos. I don't care about your inside jokes or whatever the fuck
>>322232785
Because they're doing a bad job.
>>322228867
>buggy
Why is this always the argument? Every smash is buggy as fuck.
>>322232984
How do you know if you don't play it and don't care about it? Are you angry because they didn't make it Melee 2.0?
>>322232772
I guess Smash 4 isn't a game then.
>>322232932
They always keep me spaced to where I can't get near them,it's hard because once I get close to them they can wombo-combo me into oblivion. In general I hate Cloud in this game.
Is Yoshi a good main? I seem to kick the most ass with him.
>>322224165
>virtually nothing you can do to punish them
If you're Mewtwo yes, since it doesn't have any moves to punish rolls, but everyone else in the game has a smash attack that can hit both directions.
Then again, how bad are you to still not be able to punish a roll?
Are you new to Smash?
>>322229627
>He forgets that rolls have lag
Not enough to prevent chain rolling from being mostly invincible
That, and shielding out of a roll is SUPER EASY and most everyone short of unplayed heaviesAt least, on For Glorycan get away with doing it.
>That, and Link still is pretty much scum of the universe on For Glory. Totally able to snuff out all options + slight lag = totally unbeatable.
Walking and Powershielding = countered by a grab
Running = countered by range spam.
Jumping = ranged spam, forward smash/upsmash depending on where you are.
Rolling = downsmashed
You shouldn't have to pick specific characters to counter some horseshit.Shiek being the big one that eats Link alive in the matchup.
>>322233160
Yoshi is easy to use, and can Smash happy any scrub to death.
He's noob friendly, so main away
>>322233073
>Implying I haven't played it for over 200 hours
I've given it chance after chance with each new patch, but nothing ever makes it feel fun to play. I know many others, including friends, who also feel the same way.
>>322232785
Because whining about the latest Smash game is more fun than playing Melee
>>322233160
not really, hes got like no tech and no answer to most of the top tiers
hes like ness in that his frame data is fucking broken as shit but his inherent character flaws let better characters eat him alive
if you want easymode with room for proper growth pick mario or fox
>>322233298
Well that explains it then. I'll use him and switch with others once in a while.
>>322233073
It never needed to be Melee 2.0. It just needed to be fun and fast paced(>Implying fast=melee, nice slow party game fags).
Just make defense a weaker option over all and add in some hitstun to have combos that aren't the same bnb auto combo shit every one uses and we'd be golden.
>>322224165
The games controls are shit. Dodging doesn't even work half the time and then even if you do dodge a move, most characters are fast enough to attack again before you even finish the animation. Then, if you rolled behind someone, most moves have backwards reach too. It's fucking retarded.
>>322232957
>reaction image
Stop lying mad dawg, you can't fool anybody.
>>322233136
>Cloud
>GoodYou're the constant, anon.
Just pick Link and shit all over Cloud with your OVERPOWERED AS SHIT SMASHES that outdamage his while being 2x faster
>>322229323
To be fair, Mewtwo has one of the weakest shields in the game.
Little Mac can break it, in one N-combo
>>322233471
I'm not saying Cloud is broken,i'm just saying it's legitimately hard for me to fight him as Bowser.
>>322232502
>All these spikes and meteors that land.
Playing against retards and getting paid for it.
That's not even a remotely viable option in most matches due to how people SPAM THE AIR DODGE BUTTON.
Just started using mewtwo and he is a beast. Any tips? Also Roy and Cloud are the most OP shits in the game. Cloud especially has a projectile that goes for miles, a sword with crazy reach, and he's fast as fuck.
>but muh recovery!
Doesn't really matter because he's gonna be juggling you forever
>>322233432
>Implying fast=melee
Smash 64 = Hitstun.
Melee = Fast.
Brawl = Tripping and chainbrabs.
Smash 4 = Defensive gameplay.
Lesson learned anon, Smash is trash.
>>322233696
I'm the Bowser fag and i'm in the same boat,fuck Cloud.
>>322233136
I don't blame you. I'm an Ike player and Cloud can give me a bit of a headache, but at least I some reach of my own to cope with it.
I say turtle up, no pun intended, and lame him the fuck out. His projectile sucks on stage, and I speak from experience when being shut out is the most infuriating thing to deal with. Roll spam, Up B out of shield, run away, just be a bigger pain in the ass than him.
Failing that, try Ike out. Sword fights end up being a lot more fun, and Ike's mobility and speed compared to Bowser is nice. I know it's not much advice, but it might help a little.
>>322233216
>Are you new to Smash?
From what I seen in this thread, everyone is whining about things that scrubs lose to all the time.
I have no problem with these, and can always find a way to punish them.
I main Mewtwo, and he can't punish shit, but a good player can always find a way.
>>322233432
defense isnt really the issue anymore, its punish being garbage that causes problems
offensive pressure can actually cause players to make the wrong move now, but the "wrong" move is just as unpunishable as the proper one like 90% of the time
like when almost every character can roll across the stage faster than half the cast can dash across it theres clearly a fucking problem in balancing movement options
>>322233696
>All this bitching about cloud.
>CLOUD JUGGLING YOU FOREVER
You're the one who can't air dodge or spotdodge into a grab
>>322233670
>legitimately hard for me to fight him as Bowser.
You're just a furfag who is bad at smash
If you're using a slow fighter, step up, your mind games
>>322233432
Lol the combo tree is already huge you baddie
>>322234014
>Defense isn't really the issue
>Offensive pressure makes players make the wrong move now.
So...defense is the issue, since attacking is wrong despite it being the point of the game explained in the tutorial.
Nice one, Sakurai. Fucking hack.
>>322224165
>If someone rolls behind you in Smash 4 there is virtually nothing you can do to punish them
>>322233432
>Add in some hitstun to have combos that aren't the same bnb combo everyone uses.
But that's fighting games in general.
>Bland, boring footsies play
>Wait for opponent to fuck up
>???
>BNB into something else if your game isn't shit.
>>322234014
Sheik, ZSS, MK, Ryu, Mario can all essentially 0 to death you with the proper reads off a punish.
Watch a high level game and you'll generally see that when someone is cornered they just get pressured more and more and drop a stock
>>322233940
>main Mewtwo, and he can't punish shit
Mewtwo is not that bad, I seen a few good people on 4Glory
But I never seen one win.
>>322224165
>pick Shulk
>Down Smash
Wowie Zowie, not hard to beat.
>>322234068
His smashes have practically no lag behind them. He can fsmash and then go into his ncombo with absolutely no wait time which either hits me as I try to roll away or breaks my shield
>>322224165
>roll the other way
>short hop bair
>something like whirling fortress that hits all around you and comes out quick
>pivot grab
>all the other stuff that you have at your disposal to deal with your opponent rolling at all
Sounds like you got a real mean case of man the fuck and stop being a loser
>>322234239
no, defense isnt the inherent problem, punish windows on a large portion of moves are miniscule, not just rolls and dodges but also grabs, onstage recovery, smashes and a lot of aerials like sheiks or yoshis
its what forces grab out of shield gameplay, because grab is always the fastest option oos and nothing else will hit them before theyre safe since dash options are garbage and most characters have slow as FUCK airspeed
i mean obviously roll/dodge spam being free as fuck is the biggest example of it but even fixing that wont fix sheiks wall of fairs or marios dash -> usmash spam at kill %
>>322234068
This thread is full of scrubs, that play 4 Fun.
I have not seen one person talk about a legit problem in Smash, just losing to moves, that every other scrub lose to.
>>322234142
>furfag
Nah,i'll admit it's hard to do somethings in Smash with the fuck ass gimmick pad,but I can't help it until I can get a Gamecube controller.
>>322234719
The only anon that has a pointat a low end levelis
>>322233262
>>322228107
Link is a cancer that will prevent new players from gitting gud since they'll be trained to evade faggotry instead of playing smash bros
But yeah, if you're being juggled forever by cloud, there's something really, really wrong
>>322234719
I'm a scrub, so far the only things I really hate are Sheik and Rosalina.
>>322234486
>I try to roll away or breaks my shield
And yet you still didn't learn how to get around it.
It's called learning how to read your opponent.
You see it coming, why are you still getting stuck in the same trap.
>>322234239
What are you even on about?
The tutorial teaches you the basic offensive options and defensive options you fucking autists.
>>322228005
It's not a serious fighting game
>>322235159
COMPETITIVE ACTION GAME (TRADEMARK)
>Spot Dodging
>Air Dodging
>Competitive.
YO GGXRD DOESN'T HAVE THAT GAY SHIT AND IT'S WAY MORE LEGITIMATE A COMPETITIVE ACTION GAME
>>322235245
its a party game m8, balance isnt an issue stop being a tryhard
>>322234884
What it is, is that a lot of people are used to punishing people that chase them up by attacking down on them.
Like Bowser's Down Air.
Or Link's Down Air.
Or using Kirby's Stone.
Problem is, Cloud's up air is too good for people to handle. Its basically a gigantic hitbox he lunges above his head, and stays out long enough to punish you for air dodging too.
When when a Cloud is chasing you as you fall, you have to get out of the way. Not try to challenge the up air, OR air dodge, just get the hell out of his way and get back on the ground.
>>322235362
Sakurai HIMSELF called it a Competitive Action Game.
You're just in denial
>>322235245
Defensive options add more depth to the game.
>>322232502
StylesX2 is actually good at the game, while the humor isn't memetastic. The gameplay speaks for itself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nQc53VmiY
>Link's or Bowser's down air
>Their character model doesn't even have to come close to you in order for you to still get hit
Why is it still like this?
Give me some Megaman tips.
>>322235362
>Sakurai: "There are 58 playable characters. I believe these are record breaking numbers for a competitive action game.
>"competitive action game"
Sakurai supporting tryhards confirmed. He has betrayed you anon.
>>322234894
>I really hate are Sheik and Rosalina.
Fight enough of them to learn how they play and think.
When you're being overpowered, learn how to play smart.
Why do you think every low tier player is always stroking their dicks when they beat a high tier player, by reading them.
No one like those loud mouth low tier player, but it does take some skill you read your opponent.
Know when you should rush in and attack, when to take your time, and wait for an opening.
One wrong move, and Sheik will finish you off quick.
>>322235475
Defensive options that need to be timed properly and used correctly add more depth to the game*
>>322235489
>Bamco helped make Smash 4
>Implying they learned their lesson of bad hitboxes from their other shit games
>>322235368
>Cloud's up air is too good for people to handle.
If I were to go on For Glory right now and play for the mandated 7 hours before I got something that wasn't camper spammer Link/Tink/Duck Hunts that think wasting my time with projectiles and running away is FUCKING FUN, I could bet my damn 3DS and WiiU alike that nobody...
..NOT A SINGLE OPPONENT would get hit by Cloud's upsmash since they'd spam air dodge. It's -not- as good as you're making it. You just have retards for opponents and can get away with stuff. Fun for you, but I don't have that luck online.
>>322235245
>>322235473
Notice it's called competitive action not competive fighting. In other words you're competing for items and shit and it's not a competive fighter like ggxrd
>>322229615
>Marth hasn't won a major in years
PPMD used mostly Marth for Apex 2015
>Puff never wins majors
what is dreamhack winter
also if you actually listed sm4sh majors with
notable people like ZeRo, Nairo, Dabuz, Mr.R, etc. results would be pretty much Sheik everywhere with some ZSS and maybe Pika
>>322235486
>Fox's firefox used to break shield.
Ok, that got me. That shit was hilarious.
>>322235368
About Kirby's stone
That shit can power though pretty much every non grab attack in the game, so it can challenge Cloud's up air
The problem with stone is that it's stupid easy to grab punish if it whiffs
>>322235652
So far, my issue is landing kills. I go to locals occasionally and I always choke. Decent player, last stock situation, I'm up by a decent amount of percent and I just can't finish it. Rosalina forces me to play so evasively and slow, and I can't use my usual grab mixups because Luma exists. Sheik just craps on me. I get hit once and I'm taken on a rollercoaster. I can't airdodge or I get hit with the Vanish or a Bair immediately after a move I airdodged. It's really frustrating.
>>322235652
>Know to read your opponent, you scrub.
Translation
>Have ESP and read minds, you regular human.This is why I can't get into fighting games. HURR DURR MINDGAMES HURR DURR READS AND PREDICTIONS
I wish I enjoyed FPS's more. They're a bit more reaction timed instead of NEEDING THE ABILITY TO READ THE FUTURE
>>322229615
We Tech Those didn't have Smash 4. You're thinking of Junebug, who won Project M with Diddy/Gdorf
>>322235486
Now THIS is a good video.
>>322236108
Honestly if you can't see shit coming a few seconds before it happens you need to work on your strategy
>>322236108
reading your opponent means realizing your opponent's patterns and exploiting them.
it's not hard
>>322235486
I hope this is a For Glory montage.
Otherwise his friends are all bad, and should feel bad wasting their time.
It's like his opponents gave up knowing who he was once they lost the initial 30% lead..
>>322235734
I said UP AIR, NOT UP SMASH.
>>322236028
Many characters have super armor on their up airs like Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Charizard, and that breaks stone. Stone would work though, but you need to activate it far above the Cloud so his up air can't reach you early to interrupt it.
>>322236529
His up air is shit too. would still be air dodged.
>>322233564
Sheilds all have the same HP, I don't know where you got your info from.
>>322230059
>How many characters have won Sm4sh majors?
Not a fair comparison. Only two people ever have won majors, and one of them won 99% of them.
Top 8 or top 16 is a fairer comparison.
>>322236760
If you use Uair close to the ground, it's easy to punish the airdodge.
>>322236495
I assume you're referring to all the juggling.
Not everyone spams airdodge relentlessly. Watch high level games and you'll see how little people airdodge in comparison. Aerial strings that shouldn't combo into each other occur because the players aren't made mashing r. More often than not, airdodge punishes are a lot worse than simply taking another up-air. But it's a mix of FG and friends. His other salt videos have viewer submitted clips, and you see the same thing. FG scrubs getting kicked around, and better players blundering.
>>322236760
Nope. If they use airdodge just before Cloud's Up Air comes out, he sticks the buster sword in front of the air dodge, then it wears off and you get hit, then he pulls the sword back down.
And like this anon said:
>>322236923
If you tried to air dodge the up air while Cloud is close to the ground, you are majorly fucked.
>>322236727
>Super armor
>Breaking stone
what
IIRC Stone can take about 20% before breaking
looking it up now and
>
While Kirby is in Stone form he benefits from a kind of "Ablative"†Super Armor. As usual with Super Armor he will not suffer Knockback from attacks hitting him, but unlike normal Super Armor he will also not take damage. There is a downside to Kirby's Stone Armor and that is it can be 'broken' with 40% of damage or more - this damage is "Ablative" in that it doesn't require a single hit to be broken, consecutive hits will add up. If and when the Stone is broken, Kirby will suffer half the damage and Knockback of the attack that broke him out of Stone form.
>40%
holy shit
>>322230795
There was that one dude who made top 8 at Paragon I think. That's really it.
>>322230452
His shitty shield and rolls offset that. Plus footstools being OHKOs are a real pain.
>>322235486
>StylesX2 is actually good at the game
Styles drowns in pools
>>322237425
He's a megaman main, no shit. Only the very best will get far.
>>322233160
Yoshi's pretty good.
Great frame data, incredible movement (highest air speed, two b-reversable moves, one of which gives him a little lift, 14th fastest run speed), good projectile.
Downsides are he gets buttfucked by footstools and his shield and rolls are awful.
>>322237540
Although he's on hiatus, there's two Mega Man mains from his region (well, one's a different sub-region if you want to count that) that do much better.
No excuses.
>>322237540
Scatt seems to do fine
>>322224165
It's called turn around jab faggot
>>322237793
Having poor performance in majors when you face The top players doesn't mean he's bad. His fundamentals and general playstyle are good enough to dominate most players. He gets wreaked by players like Boss, but that's a given, considering it's Boss.
>>322237964
You mean that arguably the best megaman player in the world does well? Damn, who'da thunk?
>>322234952
As mewtwo I literally have no way of escaping his shit 80% of the time. And it sucks that all for glory is now is cloud
>>322238797
>Having poor performance in majors when you face The top players doesn't mean he's bad.
I'm talkin' bout regionals.
Though he barely goes.
I'm just talking shit though. I'm in his region and I do even worse.
>>322229241
Even his safest options on shield
d-tilt
tip of f-tilt
jab
back of u-tilt
are only safe on shield if you react immediately and your opponent doesn't have a frame 1 grab.
:(
>>322233160
Aside from his rolls he's great.
Haha
>>322239086
>As mewtwo
>I literally have ways of making Cloud eat his shit
Git gud.
As a Mewtwo main, I been making all the clouds on 4glory eat their own shit.
>Learn how to use that bar and nair
>Time your Shadowball, work on your presser game
>Shield and jab his shit in
I been maining Mewtwo since day 1 DLC, so I know how to make Mewtwo fucking scary monster.
You can do it too
>>322239107
It really depends on what you consider "good"
I'd call Shofu and Styles good. I'd call Acestar okay and Alphared bad. Regular big local winners/top 8 players (Boss, Seagull, Denti, Bengal and Sethlon) are excellent players who will regularly body good players, but may lose the odd game.
And then you get the top players e.g. ESAM, Dabuz, Abadongo, MVD, and John Numbers.
Zero and Nairo I'd argue should be separated
It's also worth noting that there is a surprisingly large number of insanely good players on FG who for whatever reason never show up to tournaments, yet are top level players.
Are there any other good Sm4sh G&W tourneyfags like the Mexican nigga from EVO? The only other popular one is Gimr and he sucks dick
>>322240253
>shofu
>good
I don't have a Wii U but I gotta ask something since I see these threads pop up so often.
Does everyone on /v/ just play 1v1s in this game? It just seems weird to me that this is what people talk about because all of my memories of playing Melee and Brawl are funny free-for-all situations.
>>322240691
I don't think anyone exclusively plays only one way, even tournament players will fuck around in FFAs occasionally.
Doubles is also common. Triples less so.
>>322240589
It a cocky little shit, but he does pretty well at S@x now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyVw9R4A9oI
>>322240691
The tourney threads are 4p, I think.
>>322240691
Funny you should say, /v/ has weekend /v/eekend FFA events. They're pretty fun.
>>322240835
*He's a
I love how no-one mentions SHFF bAirs.
>>322240835
S@X is pretty free though with only a handful of legit good players
Any anons here up for a /v/eekend?
>>322241004
It's free for top level players, yes. But it's still filled with very good players. Seagull took a set off Zero. That's nothing to scoff at.
>>322240835
MDVA is free though. That's like saying Styles is good because he does well in Ontario.
Wait...
>>322241321
Again, define good.
>>322227334
I think the last balance change that needs to happen is for more moves to do heavy shield damage. That's all. That's all the low tiers need. Make every A-tier and below character have some way of breaking shields easily.
Or, alternatively, add dynamic shield recovery, so the more shield damage one takes, the longer it takes to recover your shield.
>>322241423
Not Shofu
>People actually using FG clouds as an example of Cloud's potential
I'm not saying Cloud is broken, but come on now.
You may as well say Sheik is low tier because it's impossible to down b off stage without side B suiciding half the time.
>>322240835
Why is fox mained by pretentious little fucks?
>>322241812
What constitutes a good player?
>>322241930
First you have to not be Shofu
>>322241295
More like okay players. Seagull is one of like the 3 MDVA folk who made it to Top 32 in the tourney that you're talking about and the only one to get in through Winner's Bracket
>>322241981
And then?
>>322242036
play sheik
>>322242036
Then you have to not do the things Shofu does
>Those faggots in for glory that pick Mewtwo, Samus or Lucario and just sit there charging their projectiles
It still surprises me when I run into a competent samus or lucario, that knows how to use something other than B moves.
On that note, is there a reason why duck hunt's can blocks every projectile in the game?
>>322241981
Fuck you, bitch!
>>322240110
Do you have any videos or something so maybe I can learn from you? Or would you be willing to add me and we can spar? Spoiler alert: I'm mid tier at best so be gentle senpai
>>322242036
You get outta there!
>>322242218
*smacks lips*
>>322240330
Songun is the best G&W player in Japan, you should check him out.
>>322242218
More like Shopoo am I right?
>>322242225
Nickname: Corn
NNID: CornTheSaga
>play a fast faller
>get up tilted by most of the cast to 50% before aerials
>pikachu can get like 75%+ off of it
that shit is fucking stupid. and you can't even tell me to DI out of it because that shit does not work unless the first one or two hits aren't really centered.
>>322241909
>He launches you off stage and charges his over limit so he can kill you at 40%
>not broken
>>322241909
Cloud has a ton of shit that's useful though.
>Can air-stall with that side-B slash or that neutral B-move
>Essentially has 3 spikes
>can combo things like Omni-slash into Down-smash
>down-tilt is great for evading projectiles and following up
>has that powerful forward smash that kills at like 80%
Too bad you need to save his limit break for his recovery.
>>322242454
You shouldn't be getting uptilted past 50 even if you are DIing into it
Source: I use a heavy and a fastfaller
>>322242554
No you don't because you'll never need it because he's too retardedly fast and strogn that,he will nev9r be thrwn offstage at anypointodyVakxx
>>322242554
>Too bad you need to save his limit break for his recovery.
He has guaranteed confirms into Finishing Touch. So if you land them, you may as well burn it. You'll end up recharging half of your limit as they respawn anyway.
Anyone here enjoy competitive melee and more casual smash 4?
>>322242385
Just saw one of his videos and the way he utilizes all of G&W's tools instead spamming USmash is fucking beautiful
Thanks, bruh
I JUST GOT SMASH
How do I play this shit at all.
Back in ssb 1 there was a level designed for each character that you had to use that characters skills and attacks to beat it. I don't know any attacks or how to play at all and the AI at level 2 is too hard for me if only because I fall off the edge a lot.
>marth will never be fixed
sakurai pls
>>322242672
>Grab cloud
>Throw him off stage
>Hit him once after
>Watch as 90% of them fuck up the recovery and kill themselves
Wew
>>322242805
I somehow managed to chain a down-air into finishing touch. I kind of understand how to combo into it, but half the time I either botch the move or end up not using it.
>>322243146
Up air and down air autocancel the exact same frame after the hitbox ends. Have fun
>>322242990
You do alright with Marth on characters that aren't campy zoners or Shiek.
Just be a solid brick wall and play the spacing game like mad. Most of the time you see Marths get wreaked it's because they're the ones trying to approach all the time and keep getting themselves caught in close combat.
who koopalings here?
You full hop. No aerial.
Jumps are underrated, just jump around and they'll go "OH SHIT anti-aerial upsmash" and you can punish with ease.
The moment they go airborne and attack you, you've successfully conditioned them.
>>322244019
ROYS OUR BOY
>Rolls backwards
>Time a dash attack, SHFair, or grab at the end of the roll
>Rolls past you
>time a down smash or reversed tilt/B/or bair at the end of the roll
Wew lad
>people in this thread main Sheik
I bet you eat Chinese food with forks
>>322242910
training for 1 month.
Practice recovery. Go on 4 glory get your ass kicked and insulted.
It teaches you bad habits
>Who Zelda Grills here?
There are so few Zelda players on FG I can usually take a victory by freaking them the fuck out.
>>322248031
>Practice recovery.
In smash 4 that takes about one match unless you play Mac.
>>322248128
Nobody uses zelda cause people say shes shit.
I wouldn't sleep on a zelda player though.
>>322248653
Lmao.
Not at all.
Learning how to sweet spot with all the characters and safe habits to recover when being edge-guarded is very important.
>>322224165
Downsmash you retard.
>>322248831
depends on your character, and the character you are fighting against.
And ofcourse both your positions.
The best option is to follow the roll and pivot grab or pivot tilt, or f smash.
D-smash doesn't save you in all cases
>>322248128
Zelda players catch me off guard because they're either really shit or really good
They're also really fucking stuck-up too. People say Ganondorf mains are the worst? IMO Zelda mains are.
They win one match and it's like every match after it doesn't matter and they shit-talk constantly.
Source: For Glory
Is Nintendo ever going to stop being turbojews and slash the price on smash dlc? It's over $100 for all the bundles.
>>322249519
For the NX Collector's Edition.
>>322228005
>>322228178
>>322228457
>>322228725
You neglect Perfect Pivot, B-Reverse, Wavebounce, Pivot Grab, Pivot Smash, Hip Check, and DACUS.
>>322249151
lol stuck up?
>Lil mac mains
>Yoshi mains
>Link mains
These are the most stuck up
>>322224165
>ftilt
WOAH SO HARD
