Was Kojimas biggest mistake making Big Boss the focal point of the entire MGS franchise, instead of a lone operative saving the world (MG1, 2, MGS1, 2)?
Even MGS4 is really about BB's story.
>>321883492
Kojima did what Georage Lucas did to Star Wars.
Lets be honest, the biggest mistake was not finishing the game.
>>321883678
Exactly, that's what I'm implying.
What went wrong?
Did he fall in love with his own legend?
>>321883492
His mistake was making more games about Big Boss after MGS3. The ending of MGS3 already implied his change and how he would become evil, there was no need for more information.
>>321883936
Kojima is too dumb to understand the concept of brevity.
This comes as no surprise. Really though, he should have left it alone after MGS4. It's the conclusion to the story.
He should have done a soft reboot and went back to the basics, make a diluted MGS with a story that isn't hampered by all this shitty dead weight like Cipher, Patriots, Zero and BB.
Kojima did it out of respect for Snake. Big Boss is a better character than Solid Snake as of MGS 3, but it got ruined in every further game, because Kojima was forced to milk him to make good games.
Basically yes.
>Turning your Big Bad into a massive bitch
Bravo Lucas.
>>321883492
I think calling Big Boss the focal point of the entire franchise is a bit of an exaggeration, but loosely speaking I agree. The series grew self-obsessed and soapy. Everything's because of some blonde lady and a bitch fight between Zero and Big Boss. It's lazy and amateurish writing. And because so much of MGS4's background has nothing to do with Solid Snake, he comes across as unusually passive. There's no room for him to really do anything because the story is so concerned with explaining itself. PW is redundant, and the plot has no room for yet-another-Big-Boss story--which is probably why MGSV is what it is.
Kojima's mistake was not knowing when to shut the fuck up already.
I have to force myself to play phantom pain I'm on mission 23 now and it's a huge fucking chore after completing 50 side ops
>>321884389
>Kojima did it out of respect for Snake.
That's a nice way of looking at it, I suppose.
>>321884389
>Big Boss is a better character than Solid Snake as of MGS 3
Not really.
>>321884460
Yes.
When I first heard about MGS4 and that it was going to be about Snake and Otacon going to different countries to identify and destroy Metal Gears, that sounded awesome as fuck. Like the MGS2 that we never got, basically.
Then it turned out to be a shitty story about Big Boss and the Patriots yet again.
>>321884552
I think it's more like
>Big Boss went from a non-character to a good character as of MGS3
Which is fine. It's a great game and a great story. Should have left it alone, do 4 and conclude it but then shut the fuck up god damn it.
Piss Walker was dog shit and TPP isn't much better. Each and every MGS game since 2 has a less and less coherent, understandable story and I don't mean the fact that it cross-references games and characters and rewrites canon all the fucking time. I mean that not even each game itself has a self-contained story if you KNOW all the cross-reference shit. None of these games have a solid beginning, objective, and end. They're like episodes of a TV show at this point.
Fuck, MGS needs a reboot from square one.
>>321884849
Big Boss had plenty of personality in MG2. He had as much as the character demanded, anyway.
I like MGS3's story for the most part--and I love the ending (for once Kojima tries to be somewhat subtle)--but he was far from a "non-character" prior.
>MGS needs a reboot from square one.
Agreed. That was what Kojima initially suggested for the series after MGS4. We got Peace Walker instead. No more sequels, no more remakes. The series just needs to start over with the basic idea of a lone agent sneaking around with conspiratorial flavoring.
>>321885261
Basically an MGS1 remake then, which hopefully happens now.
PW and MGSV shouldn't have been Metal Gear games. If they were an original Kojima IP about basebuilding it would have had less backlash about the change from a major narrative to being mission-based and much longer. It also would have made Skull Face much less disappointing as he would have been a new villain to a new series rather than another character lazily patched onto an old series where he really doesn't belong.
>>321886379
Yeah. At the same time, fans have been gagging for a game where you as Big Boss create MSF/Outer Heaven. Now they got it and they expected a story as strongly narrated and linear as that of MGS4, but in a sandbox... full retard in my opinion.
MGS5 succeeds perfectly at what it tries to emulate: what it would be like to run a mercenary base as the world's most legendary soldier.
You take contracts. You kill people, rescue people, destroy shit, steal shit. You send minions on contracts so they can do the same. You make money, build up your resources, develop your weapons, and so on.
You have to applaud KP for the fact that they got any kind of story into the game at all.
Yeah chapter 2 is shit, but if you take that out of the equation, the game is basically perfect. If you don't like it it's because you shouldn't have asked for a Big Boss simulator then. Because that's the best you're ever going to get out of that.
I always liked Big Boss more than Solid Snake.
Big Boss
>taught by the best soldier on Earth
>basically his mother
>she "defects" so he has to kill her
>trys the rest of his life to see her vision about a world with freedom for all a reality
Solid Snake
>teams up with weeaboo to destroy big robots
>>321886875
>I like a mary sue
Big Boss has no weakness, he's a mary sue and lacks depth.
Solid Snake is a conflicted hero who's morally gray and has way more depth.
The real reason why Phantom Pain feels underwhelming to some people is because it's not linear enough.
>>321883492
You could argue that even MGS1 was about Big Boss's legacy, considering his corpse was a ransom demand from Liquid Snake and he and Solid turned out to be clones of him. I seriously wonder how MGS would've turned out if it didn't gave Snake his cloning origins.
>>321887151
Sure, people weren't ready for a sandbox. At the same time, they didn't handle the way you drop in and out of missions very well at all.
Take the Emmerich mission. It starts as a side op, then completes and launches you straight into the main story mission that follows up on it. What the fuck is that? Do I get any say in it? No? Well fuck you, abort to main menu and finish it later. I want to do what the fuck I want, when I want.
>>321886875
I can see that, but at the same time, it feels like Big Boss was so overexplored that you can make a huge list of what he's been into, and not many things of this list relate to his character.
The whole Boss conundrum makes her a better character than him, and both Peace Walker and GZ were more about his comrades than about him. Only in TPP we actually saw him as the canon "evil mastermind" he was supposed to be.
Meanwhile, Solid Snake started as a more human character (extremely goofy, but relatable), and in MGS1 and MGS2 he had little to no exposition but that was because he didn't need it. The character was very clear. And in MGS2, the entire theme of the game served to show him as a badass when he was in fact a cool dude personally.
>>321886778
I never asked for a BB sim. I think PW and V are fun but deviate from the focus of the series, and they're hardly perfect. A solid third of the world could be removed by only taking out empty land that serves no purpose. I still had fun and intend to 100% it though.
Chapter 2's biggest problem is that they didn't have time. You could tell they just took every idea they had left and quickly just shoved them all into one mission per idea. It's not hard to imagine in a full 3 act game Chapter 2 would have been Eli's rebellion and Chapter 3 would have been the second parasite outbreak. If each of these was about 10 episodes long they could have easily done it in time, had the story be concise, and had a large amount of content still in the game.
>>321883492
Kojima wanted to move on from MGS, but Konami kept making him make more MGS, so he kept changing the series.
MGS 2- Raiden shit
MGS 3- Naked Snake shit
MGS 5- Big Boss shit
>>321887217
>I seriously wonder how MGS would've turned out if it didn't gave Snake his cloning origins.
Big Boss is Snake's story if Snake wasn't a clone. Seriously what is the difference between the characters? Kojima just wanted an excuse to do prequels/go back and forth in time so he's not locked into the story progression as much, I think.
I doubt he had planned any of this, he just needed an excuse not to continue from MGS2's story because it was a clusterfuck (see MGS4), so he came up with the mary sue that is Naked Snake.
>>321886875
Solid Snake
>taught by the man who surpassed the best soldier on Earth
>basically his father
>he "defects" so he has to kill him
>tries the rest of his life to put a stop to the remnants of his vision of the world of endless war and the nuclear tanks he used to achieve it
>>321887284
Ok, i see what you are saying. I have always liked games that have a lot of sadness/death and not so much of the "badassery" like in MGS1 or 2. Stuff like MGS3, The Last Of Us, etc.
>>321887479
I think the Big Boss games (MGS3, MPO, PW and V) were constrained by the fact that they were prequels, so they had shoehorned shit to remind you of the other games (e.g. Null, Kaz, Eli).
>>321883492
That's the point of MGS TPP and destroying the Big Boss character. Kojima fucking hates faggots who don't appreciate his message, hence what happened with Solid after MGS2.
Solid Snakes story is the real MGS
Big Bosses story is a spin-off forced to be mainline
MGS4 was literally ruined because BBs story was grafted into it
>>321886986
I wouldn't say Big Boss is a Mary Sue, though everyone's total admiration for him feels odd. The Boss is much more Mary Sue-ish.
>>321886875
>a world with freedom
You mean a world for soldiers by soldiers. It would've been awful to most people. Solid Snake and Otacon unknowingly adopted the philosophy most similar to The Boss's.
Peace Walker and TPP didn't need to be made. This ending is satisfying enough for knowing why Big Boss turned evil. He's disillusioned by the betrayal he suffered from the U.S. government. He has the words of the Boss fresh in his mind. It's all we need to know and see as to why he turned his back on the U.S. and everyone else.
>>321887613
He killed Venom Snake not Big Boss.
>>321888605
He killed Venom and "killed" Big Boss. Zanzibar was the real BB.
>>321887479
Big Boss was an egocentric asshat warmonger and a charismatic figurehead.
Solid Snake has a much more grounded personality, and while he has at various times felt conflicted about his line of work, also has a clear moral compass. The fact he feels conflicted about his skill set alone demonstrates his superior moral character. I get what you're saying, and I wish Naked Snake didn't feel so much like Solid Snake: Goofy Edition in MGS3, but they're pretty distinct and have always been distinct.
>>321888605
he killed Venom and Big Boss.
>>321888856
>Big Boss was an egocentric asshat warmonger and a charismatic figurehead.
But not in MGS3
>>321888934
Naked Snake in MGS3's biggest issue is that he doesn't have much of a personality at all. I recognize that this was likely intentional so as to paint him as still innocent and untainted ("too pure for the Cobras"), but there isn't much to him. It's alright in its own way (whereas Solid Snake hits on Mei Ling, Naked Snake goes wild over a handgun--very telling), but he isn't as compelling as Solid Snake was in MGS1 or Raiden in MGS2 for this reason.
The real driving force for his character is his relationship with the Boss, but even that falls somewhat flat because we have no real reason to give a shit about her the way he does.
>>321883492
>Tfw MGSV protagonist was supposed to be Raiden
>>321889424
Fair point but I saw enough similarities between Snake and Naked Snake to think that they could have easily been swapped out in 1 and 3.
>>321889445
Fuck that cyborg edgelord
>The support team from MGS3 decided to secretly take over Amercia and basically became the Illuminati.
Why? I'm still baffled by this decision, what the fuck was Kojima thinking?
Is it bad that i prefer whiny ass Raiden over so-edgy-you-could-cut-yourself Raiden?
>>321889580
Solid Snake was actually somewhat in-touch with culture for a depressed alcoholic with dogs as his only companions. That's the biggest difference between the two. Naked Snake is a goofball.
Getting rid of the bandana and giving Naked Snake a different voice would've been nice, though. I've always thought that was a mistake.
>>321889914
No. Most people over 12 do, I'd imagine.
In MGS4 he's just overly mopey, but in Rising he's frequently godawful.
>>321889914
Whiny ass Raiden makes a nice contrast to hardened veteran Solid Snake, which is of course the whole point.
>>321890156
Ok good, i thought i was the only one.
>>321889445
Big boss and Snake are jokes when compared to Raiden
>>321883492
Yes. Whoever gave a flying fuck Big Boss, the retarded evil villain. I wanted to play as Solid to the end of time.
>>321886986
>talking about big boss being a mary sue and acting as if solid isn't
Come on now
>>321889903
At first, Kojima was making the Godzilla of videogames.
Then he made the Da Vinci Code of videogames.
>>321890549
Please tell me this guy isn't serious... Anyone...? Oh god he is serious, isn't he?
>>321890549
Fuck off risingfag
>>321890794
Well said, anon. Well said.
>>321890643
>Whoever gave a flying fuck Big Boss, the retarded evil villain
All those people who unironically use Big Boss as nicknames online.
They exist, and they are some of the dumbest people I've ever dealt with.
>>321890549
Well anyone could do that if you gave them a state of the art machine body. Would Solid Snake be a joke if he had ended up a cyborg too?
>>321890549
Well memed friend
>>321891132
Probably. It would cause the game to get more casua- oh wait. It already has.
>>321890549
RISING ISN'T CANON
>>321889903
To be fair, any concrete explanation for the Patriots was going to be disappointing since they were introduced as a mysterious entity in MGS2. Removing that mystery removes some of the appeal of a shadowy organization.
