Why is it considered a good thing again? The best characters are the ones that stay true to their beliefs until the end. On the other hand, nothing disgusts me more than courageous/cheerful characters going full emo.
Thoughts/experiences/insults?
>>321648697
It depends on their role in the story. If they're a major character and you're stuck with them the entire story then the things happening around them should affect them. It doesn't have to be as extreme of a change as a happy character going full emo, though that's seemingly the only type of development Japanese writers seem to be aware of. Every character in FFXIII was better than Snow though so I don't know what the fuck you're implying
Yes, let's only have one type of character anymore, that will make for some great stories.
>>321648697
>character doesn't trust another character
>with OP's logic, he is never allowed to change his mind
>>321649141
I guess you have a point, but I think no character development is infinitely better than bad character development, which happens to most RPG characters. I'm pretty flubbergasted when I see that people "no character development" a flaw.
Also, just because character development is realistic doesn't mean it's good if it also makes the character boring
>>321648697
snow was a shit character
Character development doesn't usually involve a character abandoning their beliefs. Believe it or not, if a person goes through hell and back, things about their personality are going to change.
>>321648697
People just like cheap thrills and instant satisfaction. They think it isn't good writing unless characters magically change drastically in a short period of time, something that almost never happens in real life.
>>321648697
nice meme
>>321649460
That's not what OP said at all, you silly retard.
>>321649841
Good thing video games aren't real life
>>321649581
>Also, just because character development is realistic doesn't mean it's good if it also makes the character boring
Characters don't exist in a vacuum. If they've had development then that means they've had an arc and are dynamic, that's the opposite of boring. Just because a character is one way now doesn't mean the way they were previously ceases to exist or be acknowledged by the story. "No character development" for a major character who's been through a fantastic series of events common in RPGs is absolutely a flaw
>>321648697
fucking pleb go back to colouring books
Snow is a fucking retard. Probably not only one of the worst FF characters, but one of the worst in all vidya.
>>321649989
The way I see it, if the previously confident hero/character changes his mind after confronting true evil for the first time, it just means he was all talk and no guts, which makes me lose all respect for the character. Characters who manage to accomplish their goals without abandoning their seemingly inadequate/foolish ways, now that's cool.
>>321649963
thats exactly what the OP said you gargantuan faggot!
>>321650449
Pic related (it's pretty much me)
>>321649989
I agree with you. If we are following a protagonist that doesnt change during the course of our story because his character has already been developed, why not simply see the part of his life that contributed to forming him?
>>321650449
Well the problem is that you are 14 years old.
>>321650449
Characters don't have to be respectable or cool to you. That's not what makes a good character, only children think that way. A protagonist who puts on a facade of bravery despite being a coward and then reevaluates this point of view upon facing an actual threat to his way of life is infinitely more interesting than one-dimensional tough guy.
>>321648697
>On the other hand
What other hand? You just said something else that supports your original opinion.
Seems like you could use a little character development.
>>321648697
All that needs to be said about you, OP, is that you are obviously underage or autistic and do not understand what makes a good story or character. In 10 years you will either have changed your mind, or be consigned to a manchild existence for the rest of your life.
>>321650829
Well I'm sorry being so immature that I think fun is more important than realism in vidyia.
>>321650449
you sound like a 14 year old.
>someone on /v/ seriously thinks character development is a bad
>>321648697
>Why is it considered a good thing again?
Because the only things that don't change are dead things. And we don't want our characters to feel dead, do we?
>>321651108
Yeah it's so fun watching a bunch of very important shit happen to a character only for them to basically not react to it or question it.
>>321650598
>why not simply see the part of his life that contributed to forming him
Well then there is change over the course of the story. Flashbacks and such are still a part of the overall story. Since video game stories typically don't take place over a very long period of time, flashbacks are often used as ways to flesh out why a character is the way they are presently rather than them undergoing major change in the present timeline. I don't really like the Last of Us but the way they handled Joel was pretty good imo, you got a flashback showing how he was and what caused him to be the way he was in the present and then over the course of the present story, which had time jumps, you see how he develops.
People are dumb as fuck, OP. If it was up to /v/, people would shit on The Godfather because Vito Corleone doesn't have enough character development. Just ignore it. A story is more than just a character developing. And it's not one always necessary for the story.
>>321650449
So you just want a gary stu protagonist?
dat nigga look like tom cruise
>>321648697
>The best characters are the ones that stay true to their beliefs until the end.
So... you like stubborn, biased and ignorant characters the most, huh OP?
>>321649570
>changing your mind with regards to new information requires a change of personality
You must be stubborn and in denial quite often
>>321651454
Don't start spewing words you dont know the meaning of, please
>>321651479
Yes, for example, they can make great characters. Some people seem to think I want characters without flaws, that's not the case at all.
>>321650809
>What other hand? You just said something else that supports your original opinion.
underrated post
>another good thing is bad thread on v
you guys are really out of ideas.
>>321651451
Thanks. I suck at English so I have trouble expressing myself but that's exactly the kind of characters I would be referring to.
>>321648697
Because in life you change as a person anon
>>321650449
>The way I see it, if the previously confident hero/character changes his mind after confronting true evil for the first time, it just means he was all talk and no guts, which makes me lose all respect for the character.
Sounds like Gaia would be a better site for you to go. I bet you enjoy SAO too.
>Vito Corleone
>no character development
Yuri has no character development but he;s still based.
>>321651629
What? The meaning is here:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu
>>321651976
>linking tvtropes
Holy shit you're a faggot
I like to resolve people's problems and make them happy again
>>321651451
>>321651873
>Snow Villiers is comparable to Vito Corleone
>>321648697
He's got a point. Focusing on characters is gay, plot is much more interesting.
Characters questioning their beliefs/emotions constantly are just really weak minded or underdeveloped people.
Having an interesting plot and >ideas< in a story is much more valuable imho.
>>321648697
Plots can't progress very much without characters changing with them. You're a dumb fuck.
>Why is character development considered a good thing
>I mean I've been the same exact person since I was 9 and look at me, I'm perfectly fine!
>>321651307
I agree that flashbacks have a lot of potential and its always nice to see them expand on what we are already witnessing. Clarify a thing or two. Not everything, of course. Sometimes a little mystery is healthy for a world. Makes it seem like it's is an actual world, where things are constantly happening and we are following just one out of many interesting stories that it has to offer.
I don't think that flashbacks should be the only tool available to us, though. If he doesn't change during OUR adventure, I feel like he's just thinking of it as something immensely vapid.
>>321652318
Of course he isn't, I just grabbed a pic of the first stubborn character in vidyia I thought of to start the thread
>>321652273
>Some people seem to think I want characters without flaws, that's not the case at all.
Alright, I must be missing something then, friendo. What's the difference between wanting a character with no flaws and wanting no character development?
>>321651451
>Vito Corleone doesn't have enough character development
He does though. He gets revenge on Don Ciccio who murdered his family
>>321652412
I guess if the games takes place over the span of 10 years AND the character is less than 20 years old, yeah it makes sense.
>>321652335
Characters drive the plot and character dramas with a barebones plot are almost always more interesting than outlandish plots with static characters. It's why jrpg writing is so consistently awful.
>>321652484
Because the character doesn't have to be perfect originally?
>>321652392
>Plots can't progress very much without characters changing with them.
>There are people on /v/ right now who believe this
Anyway can we all agree Ezio was one of the best characters in recent history?
>>321652726
They doesnt have to be perfect at the end, either. Only to change.
>>321652475
Being stubborn doesn't mean they don't have development. OP cited Snow, an actual character with no/very little development and he's fucking awful but apparently that means good in bizarro world.
>>321652703
>Characters drive the plot
Just because you need characters for a story doesn't mean that you have to put all the writing resources into developing them.
There are more aspects to a plot than just characters, unless you're only interested in dramas.
>>321653101
I don't remember implying that character development meant character becoming perfect. Don't really see where you're going with this.
>>321650520
It's not.
He never said that he wanted all characters to be the same, he said that the best characters were ones who thought and acted consistently throughout their story instead of developing new beliefs or whatever.
Consider a course in remedial reading comprehension.
>>321653224
Of course there are but you're saying the characters aren't important but that's literally how people connect with the story. They're one of if not the most important aspects of a story so putting a lot of focus on them is completely reasonable. You can't care about the plot if you have no interest in any of the major players.
>>321653907
But you CAN have interest in characters even if they don't change. Say, for the traitor archetype, instead of having him change his mind about helping you, you can make it so he always secretly intended to betray you. I like the latter most personnally. Of course, it all depends on execution. You can totally have great characters with development and shit characters with no development, it's a choice, but more often than most characters with no/limited development are more interesting imo.
>>321651479
That is what makes sergeant Walker such a good character tbf.
>>321653907
The stories created by ancient Greek writers had us follow protagonists whose character barely changed/didn't change at all. As nice as those were, I hope storytelling has improved since then.
>>321652318
I never said that. OP didn't use the best example so I used a better one.
>>321652597
That's not character development. That's plot development. Vito was true to his character.
Also, there wasn't much character development in No Country For Old Men. Yet it's still one of the greatest movies ever made. Stop constricting a story into these stupid ass parameters.
>>321654479
Have you read the Illiad? Storytelling isn't a fucking graphics race. Character development isn't necessary, as the old Greeks showed 2500 fucking years ago.
>>321653907
>Of course there are but you're saying the characters aren't important but that's literally how people connect with the story.
So you're saying writers need to spend most of their effort on developing characters just because they're the bottleneck for immersion for some people?
>>321655060
If it's a narrative-heavy game, yes they should spend a significant amount of time developing the major character(s). That doesn't mean completely forgoing every other aspect of plot but the characters should be a big focus.
>>321654479
This >>321654859. You're just being culturally obtuse now.
Really, people, there are different kind of 'stories'. Character development belongs to drama. Comedy relies heavily on archetypes and tropes. Tales or fables often have little to no character-development until the end of the conflict. Myths don't rely on character development AT ALL.
Many videogames actually follow the narrative structure of myths, especially action games for obvious reason. The concept of character development as something necessary to have 'good' literature is deeply rooted in the birth of the novel, a form of writing that isn't even 500 years old yet. It was never necessary before that, and only in the 20th century has the canon liberated itself from such concepts and prejudices. Why should it apply to videogames when literature itself is advocating for a change? You have it completely backwards.
the only types of characters that should change are insecure ones. Become confident and develop a personality instead of just being quiet or obnoxious
>>321655729
>Character development belongs to drama
I would challenge even this notion. A drama can play out just fine with static characters. It depends on the story. There is no stupid universal marker. Lazy people love to judge a story by something you can quantify like "character development" but that shit doesn't matter. You can't quantify a story.
>>321655751
>the only types of characters that should change are insecure ones
It depends on the story. What does the story want to say? If it's a story about a shy person being fucked over because he's shy? Then no. A character change would act against that purpose.
>>321650449
what about a character that grows up?
like you should?
>>321656009
To be fair, I was thinking of dramatic novels when I typed that, not in Shakespeare. But yes, you're completely right. I was just pointing what's more common in each genre/text type.
>>321655653
>If it's a narrative-heavy game, yes they should spend a significant amount of time developing the major character(s).
I think it depends on the specific story. I'm not advocating making every character a cardboard cut-out, but you know that the importance they have to the story can vary, right? I think that you really undervalue the aspects of narrative which aren't derived from characters.
>>321653907
>You can't care about the plot if you have no interest in any of the major players.
Unless the plot is interesting enough on it's own merits, that you don't need to develop a vicarious interest in it through the characters.
Speaking of stories without much character development; watch Sicario. It just came out. It's not so much about character development as it is about character principles. It's pretty good. I recommend it.
>>321648697
Depends on story. Crime And Punishment would suck big time if people thought like you.
>>321656918
I'll concede that I'm probably letting my own preference for dramas and OP's suggestion of Snow, a character from a story where everyone else does have an arc with development, as a good example of a character no development color my perception of what a story needs to be "good". This anon changed my mind >>321655729 I was being narrow-minded
>>321657507
>This anon changed my mind >>321655729 (You) I was being narrow-minded
Well, this doesn't happen often.
No problem, anon. I'm glad I could be of assistance, really.
>>321651951
I think he has some character development, because he becomes a hypocrite when it comes to not killing Estelle. His ways of doing things are effectful, but he is essentially doing the same Alexei did - pushing your agendas on other people.
>>321652618
but there those 20 years, there were definetly some moments and events that changed the persons core beliefs. Why would it be bad if a game/book/movie was about those events?
>character development is bad
Just when I thought /v/ couldn't get anymore retarded.
>>321654859
Have you read The Odyssey? All the characters are such fucking big hypocrites - always okay when they do shit, but not okay when others do it.
Also, greek stories suck
>>321658016
>character development is bad
Literally nobody said this. Your reading comprehension warrants a character development.
>>321658084
>Also, greek stories suck
Someone is judging millenia-old text with the lens of this century
>>321658218
"Why is it considered a good thing again?"
The way this sentence is phrased, one would assume that OP doesnt look favorably upon it or characters that experience it.
>>321658016
To be fair I kinda made the OP flamey on purpose to get interest (it's /v/ after all), but the true point is that no character development isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself. Now I'm gonna fuck off because there are much more well spoken guys like
>>321657507
>>321656918
in here now
>>321649705
Why?
>>321658541
Oh, nevermind. You explained yourself.
>>321648697
>Change is bad
I bet you read Big Two.
sometimes characters get no development, like Raiden in MGS2 or Zelos in Symphonia.
and in other cases become a worse character with "development" like Squall from FF8
>>321648697
>I am a perpetual child
Fixed
>>321650809
REKT
>>321657507
Thanks for the discussion, it was much better than /v/ usually is in my experience. I suspect OP may have been meant as bait to some extent in any case. I also found this post >>321655729 to be very informative.
I'll be sure to look into stories that do focus on character development.
>>321658541
I wish you didnt do that. I replied to this thread only because you misrepresented your position. Next time dont be an ass, just ask about the things that interest you.
>>321658630
Because he didn't have any character development, Hope and Sazh were both much better because they both did have character development.
I think character development isn't necessary and it's usually used as a cheap way to make a shitty character seem dynamic while all it does is make them look very weak-minded
Like that guy from Avatar which goes through a pathetically shitty development arc, he goes from depressed cripple to pussy-whipped traitor
Especially in jrpgs the characters are there to walk the player through the world and story and as vessels for the gameplay and crazy action
As for Snow, I love his character, he's a cheerful hero that always tries to do the just thing and tries to save anyone
He never lets anything bring him down and the one time he seemingly looks more "depressed" in LR it's because Serah died, he's fighting against the church from another city, he's responsible for an entire city and he's slowly being devoured by chaos that he's single handedly keeping from destroying the city
>>321658853
>sometimes characters get no development, like Raiden
Stopped reading fucking moron.
>>321659538
He didn't need it
A development for Snow would have been absurdly idiotic
He kind of has one, he goes from wannabe hero that wants to save everyone, to wannabe hero that's gonna save everyone he possibly can
>>321648697
Eat shit Vesperia faggot
>>321648697
How is it a bad thing?
If I'm gonna spend 40 hours with someone they need to grow. It doesn't have to be a personality change but games like FFX would be shit if Tidus just stayed happy go lucky or Wakka stayed a racist asshole.
>>321659736
Yuri doesn't give a fuck, why should he have development?
>>321657507
>concedes a point
I've literally never seen this on /v/ before. This board is experiencing character development.
>>321659879
Because he's fucking boring.
>>321659879
He's boring
>>321659632
well, he did get development but not until MGS4 and MGR
he was shit in MGS2 and never got better
>>321659702
He did need it he got a bunch of people killed by acting like a moron with terrible dialogue
>>321660261
Are you fucking stupid?
Raiden gets a ton of development in MGS2. Did you just not pay attention?
>>321660261
>>321660261
>well, he did get development but not until MGS4
Stopped reading you really are a fucking moron who doesn't understand subtle character development.
Probably the op.
>>321659985
>>321660210
No he isn't
We already had Flynn as the moralfag, Yuri was the vigilante that decided to put himself above the law and dared anyone that disagreed to stop him
When Ragou was about to walk free I was mad, I just wanted a chance to kill him because allowing him to walk free was unacceptable and I hated how Yuri of all people was allowing this to happen
And Yuri pulled through, so if you demand that Yuri should go through boring character development about "if you kill them you're as bad as them" bullshit I would have hated it
>>321660320
You mean the people that were already ready to beorded on the purge trains? The people about to go through "execution masquerading as exile"? Yeah Snow saved lives right there. Sure people died but they would have all died if he didn't do anything
Snow was already beating himself up way too much for the people that died
Snow has this flaw, he takes responsibility for shit that isn't his fault and then still carries the weight of that
>>321660402
>Did you just not pay attention?
only in Arsenal Gear because the game went full retard there
>>321660467
>Probably the op.
nope, CIA
>>321660954
You so fucking stupid you don't even seem to understand what character development and have such a warped view of it I'm not even gonna bother with you I'm certain you are underage.
>>321660210
>>321659985
To you.
>>321661220
That's a lot of words to not have any valid argument and just throw in a false accusation
>>321659546
>I think character development isn't necessary and it's usually used as a cheap way to make a shitty character seem dynamic while all it does is make them look very weak-minded
I think if you read through the thread before you're post, there's a lot more nuance to it than that.
> Characters not being static cardboard cutouts
> bad
Only you /v/, only you.
Character development is overrated. Even in a character driven story it's much simpler, and more important, to have a cast with chemistry and let their relationships develop rather than the characters themselves. A lot of the times people have this idea they're too attached to and put too much emphasis on one character, and when he "develops" the chemistry of the cast is irrevocably fucked.
>>321650449
Honestly? I actually agree with you, don't expect the edgy contrarian dipshit squad on /v/ to treat you with anything other then unbridled contempt though.
>>321648697
But making an unbelievably retarded character on purpose just to have them be slightly less retarded in the end is the pinnacle of storytelling
>>321648697
Snow had a pretty good reason to be emo. He tried to save the world, succeeded, got victory snatched out from him, tried to save the world again, succeeded, got his victory retconned from existence, tried to save the world again, and failed.
The end of the FFXIII trilogy took a steaming dump on him and every other member of the XIII/XIII-2 cast who wasn't Lightning.
>>321658630
>"Muh Serrah"
>"Muh hero"
>"Muh can't think like a normal fucking person for a second and act irrationally every step of the way"
>>321648697
Yeah because cardboard cutout characters are amazing and compelling!
I hate the worthless-sack-of-shit-develops-into-badass-character shtick. Because said actual development usually happens at the very end, especially in anime.
So you are stuck with a worthless sack of shit that's not interesting at all for almost the entire story.
>>321664481
A character who undergoes development can very well turn into another cardboard cutout. In the meantime, a character without development can be original from the beginning.
>>321648697
All that matters is if the writing/characterization is good enough to elicit the intended response.
To go with the Yuri/Luke discussion:
Luke changed completely. But I couldn't stand what he changed into. A whiny faggot. And it's very difficult to play RPG's through a MC you hate.
Yuri didn't change, but was generally very likeable. I wouldn't have minded more development. But if it was done as terribly as Luke, then fuck that.
It doesn't really matter if the changes that a character are justified, unless they are presented well.
JRPG's have always been hit or miss with this. Half the time I play one I end up hating a character I'm supposed to be rooting for, because of poor writing.
>>321663478
I don't think there's anything wrong with character development at all, I just don't think it's necessary for every story.
>>321665572
>a character without development can be original from the beginning
No, they will be a terrible character because they never go through trials, they never learn anything, a good character is only one who changes and learns and grows, that is character development
Without character development you have trash, nothing anyone should ever care about
>>321666870
>a good character is only one who changes and learns and grows
But anon, you're describing a malleable character, not a well written character.
>>321666870
Blatant lie. Character tropes exist for a reason. They function as strong archetypes, they've been fool-proofed for years. A good, solid character doesn't necessarily mean an original character. An obvious example in literature would be Spanish Celestina, which fits perfectly in the role of the European witch but conveys a lot of concepts of human nature. Same with a lot of other characters, ranging from Homer's Ulysses to Joyce's Leopold Bloom.
People seem to be confusing character development with bad character development or doing 180s on their beliefs. There is usually a ton of subtle character development like a cocky mc not screwing around as much because a friend dies or something. It's not always a black/white or gigantic change type of thing
>>321667750
There's no confusion, is just that saying "character development is overrated" without specifying anything else is retarded. Even 180s can be good if executed correctly. To talk about this without using particular examples is moot.
>>321667750
It usually is because vidya writing sucks
Take Tomb Reboot for instance
>innocent pure girl goes through development
>kill count is CoD tier by the end after she becomes "hardened"
>>321663142
>mfw there's an overlap between the people who complain about /v/ and the people who post in threads without reading through them
>>321648697
BECAUSE YOU GET THE STAR WARS PREQUELS IF YOU DONT
>>321666178
>And it's very difficult to play any game through a MC you hate.
fixed. Raiden made MGS2 unbearable
People can (and will) still surprise you after many years knowing them, without having to change.
From the board that brought you "fun is a buzzword" and "Mario has the deepest lore" comes "character development: why is it considered a good again?". I suppose if you're a shut-in that hasn't left his room or made any major changes in his life since he graduated highschool, that people can grow and develop through experience would be a completely foreign concept.
>>321648697
You're dumb, that's all
>>321658541
>To be fair I kinda made the OP flamey on purpose to get interest (it's /v/ after all)
I appreciate you laying your cards on the table OP.
>>321660467
>subtle character development.
if it existed for Raiden in MGS2
>>321668760
Fun is a buzzword and doesn't tell you anything about a game
Mario lore threads are ironic
>>321648697
Wait you mean Snow turns emo or something?
I never finished FF13 and Snow was actually one of my favorites?
>>321668760
>From the board that brought you "fun is a buzzword" and "Mario has the deepest lore" comes "character development: why is it considered a good again?".
I think the consensus of the thread was that the importance of character development depends on the story. I don't think anyone is earnestly arguing that character development is a bad thing.
Although having said that, with regards to this:
>"character development: why is it considered a good again?".
There's nothing wrong with questioning something that is well established as a means for you to figure out why it's important, unless you were also making the point that op was wasting our time and should just have used google.
So this thread has established that people who hold up character development as a core aspect of storytelling can't read, right?
>>321669303
>Fun is a buzzword and doesn't tell you anything about a game
"Shit" is way more of a buzzword here than "fun" will ever be desu.
Character development is only good if a character actually needs it.
Random example, Chewbacca. Did he need development through the OT? Not really, he was pretty much the same wookie at the end that he was at the beginning. Han on the other hand DID need it, because it allowed him to change from someone who only cared about himself and his ship into someone that cared about his friends.
>>321669672
he turns emo 2 games later after 1000 years
>>321648697
>The best characters are the ones that stay true to their beliefs until the end
Not really. Only a stupid cunt could go on an entire world-spanning journey and be completely unchanged by their experiences.
It's all well and good if the character has a strong belief and they stay true to themselves but that's pretty unrealistic. It's pretty presumptuous to think that someone who hasn't experienced much has a totally correct and accurate world-view that shouldn't change.
Characters develop because people develop, it's natural. Even if your core beliefs don't change you still change as a person.
>>321671414
>It's all well and good if the character has a strong belief and they stay true to themselves but that's pretty unrealisti
So is giving your life to fight evil, but that's what justice is meant to do
>most games take place over a month at most
>muh character developmentfags think characters should do a complete 180 on all their beliefs in that time
>>321671608
>So is giving your life to fight evil
that's not unrealistic at all
>>321648697
Only if the actual game was as good as its graphics and CGI cutscenes....
Jesus that game is beautiful..
>>321671868
Devoting your entire life, forsaking all loved ones and friends in pursuit of the destruction of something which in many ways is intangible?
Yes it can be done, but a person who does that would not be considered a normal person.Joe did develop as a character anyway. When Yuriko died in the live action series and he failed to prevent that, it strengthened his resolve and made him realize that this was a battle that must be fought without having loved ones, because evil will only take them away from you.
>>321652412
![BD9031C7C9F0DB6BC6865B95BF89F6E844704164[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/mLso1yF.jpg "BD9031C7C9F0DB6BC6865B95BF89F6E844704164[1].jpg")
>>321672208
>tfw we will soon may have a final fantasy movie that looks like pic related
Videogame characters DON'T exist.
You can interact with them, but they reply only in scripted lines.They are toys.
More elaborate than plastic toys but just toys nonetheless. Toys are made to play with.
Characters cannot possibly interact with a player. They stop becoming human and rather function as game mechanics when a player is involved.
When videogame writer accept this gaming will finally improve.
>>321672503
what? no way.source?
>>321648697
>The best characters are the ones that stay true to their beliefs until the end
what if their beliefs/ideals were stupid as fuck?
Take example this dork.He got "forced" into the military due to piloting a giant robot that was just happened to be abandoned at the site of an alien attack.
Though of war as a video game, people were calling him an idiot. But seeing death & destruction in Antarctica, nearly dying in Antarctica, seeing a base get nuked in front of his eyes, and running into someone on the enemy side that was just like him made him get serious,
>>321672739
>Characters cannot possibly interact with a player.
then explain how pen and paper rpgs work
>>321670553
kekI don't think the baity OP helps though
>>321673562
>He got "forced" into the military due to piloting a giant robot that was just happened to be abandoned at the site of an alien attack.
Everything in your sentence is wrong you faggot. Did you even play the game?
>>321673590
They are toys. You can do whatever you want with them.
>>321673945
it was either military or jail
I call that forced
>>321673948
>whatever you want
Until the DM slaps your shit
>>321648697
Sadly, fucking SANIC LOST WORLD was a great example of character development. Hate the series, but at least they could of retained SOMETHING
"ayy lmao nosehair"
>>321674006
Ok the forced part is right.
But the robot was deployed right before him by the military
>>321674759
>But the robot was deployed right before him by the military
Oh, yeah. I forgot that Ingram ordered a robot to be deployed but no pilot and told the planes to fuck off.
>>321672739
Then the resolution is simple:
Using an AI algorithm, implant a learning AI into every NPC.
Depending on how the player reacts to them or treats them, save this AI copy, and delete it when the NPC dies, but copy it's life over to a major main file.
From there, the game's dialogue and actions from NPCs change.
Encourage and coax the player to roleplay whilst playing the game- this was effective for Planetside, as the original game's players usually played out their roles, and cheered and panicked depending on the situation.
If players are encouraged to develop their character, as well as play the intended game, then this is not impossible.
>>321648697
I'm going to explain to you why OP, and why you will never see a Final Fantasy game without it.
You see broseph, when it comes to games that features weirdos in costumes, a world that is "very high fantasy", you kind need something like a normal dude or girl to drive us (the audience) through the story
This is what we call a "protagonist". The idea of everything behind this protagonist is that him being someone we can relate to. Someone who has an objective we can understand and sympathize with.
Like, in many fantasy games or stories, if the story is something that moves you, is because there is something in that reality that you could sympathize with and thus moved your feelings.
The idea behind an "arc" (character development) is because you, or human beings in general, grow in real life and that's usually something you can sympathize with.
The idea of a good development is then one you can understand, one that you, the audience, agrees that makes sense under the conditions or developments of the story, and more importantly, one you can sympathize and relate with.
When it comes to games like FF, sci-fi games, or just fantasy in general, this is incredibly, incredibly, incredibly important, which is why you'll likely never see a game without it.
It's not a matter of "all fantasy games need to be written this way" with development and etc.? But unless you're Nabokov, or Philip K. Dick, and your audience is strictly a more mature, well read audience, it's usually recommended to stick with this pattern of "character to sympathize, objectives to sympathize, growth to sympathize".
Cheers m8.
I think characters, just like people, should have core facets to their personality that take a tremendous effort to change but at the same time they have to act and change their behavior realistically to be really compelling.Undertaleis a good example of this withUndyne, she's been living her entire life with the mindset that humans are entirely antagonistic to the well being of her species and it takes complete pacifism to even give the player the chance to become her friend.
>>321651140
OP is right though. All you sad little jrpg faggots think characters have to do 180s to have "development"
CHARACTERIZATION IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT
>>321676774
>The way I see it, if the previously confident hero/character changes his mind after confronting true evil for the first time, it just means he was all talk and no guts, which makes me lose all respect for the character. Characters who manage to accomplish their goals without abandoning their seemingly inadequate/foolish ways, now that's cool.
How can you agree with this?
>>321672454
that post was both sad and creepy
>>321677158
Why wouldn't I agree with that? You are just proving me right that you stupid jrpg rejects think characters MUST have a stupid angsty emo phase.
Oh man what a shit movie. Every character has the same beliefs and opinions throughout the entire film!
>>321672739
Consider this thought experiment:
Surely you could write a character's responses to two alternative, mutually exclusive scenarios, A or B. Somewhat like the ending of a story and it's non-canon alternative end. Except A/B happen somewhere in the middle of the story, and instead of the author picking which scenario is canon, the in-playthrough canon is decided by the actions of the player (without the player even necessarily knowing about the coming consequences of their actions, or that there were alternative scenarios at all.)
Now you can have multiple such branches, and in some of them instead of having A/B you can have more options. The actual difference between the scenarios doesn't have to be great, it could be as little as which dialogue option the player picks at any one time.
I fail to see where in this thought experiment the characters stop being characters and start being toys.
Is it when the branching scenarios are forced to coalesce back into each other because of limited disc space? Surely there are other such narrative contrivances in non-interactive stories, but the characters in those stories are still characters.
Leaving the thought experiment, is it when things happen like the player being able to throw objects around a room without npcs reacting to this, like here: https://youtu.be/NV-AWxqYAgc?t=145 (2:25)? I'd argue that that's just the diagetic limit of the medium, like wires and moving props/sets around in theatre https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tg04DiIT0Q (intro ends at 1:00)
It just seems like you're framing interactive characters as a tool in a toybox that is related to narrative, when it could just as arbitrarily be framed as an aspect of a new form of narrative.
>>321677417
That's not what character development means.
If the world is complete shit the happy-go-lucky guy who goes through every terrible thing the world can throw at him might not be crestfallen or less caring toward his friends and family but he'll definitely be less trusting of strangers and hardened by the end of it. Even children's cartoons have done this.
>>321677872
>That's not what character development means.
It does to jrpg fags.
>Even children's cartoons have done this.
They also do the complete opposite and have a character continue to believe in others/good to make a point.
Fade in from black. The loud, characteristic whirring of a dropship's engines droning in the backround. The player heaves themselves from the burning wreckage of the shot down dropship (although the source is unknown, but appears to be of plasma-based origin). and staggers around as they stagger, wounded towards a nearby facility's doors.
When the player gets inside the facility, their first objective is to get their communications running. This will be their first encounter with basic Xeno-Castes, and the occasional predator.
If the player decides to take a more scenic route, rather than a straighter, linear one, give them scenes of significant conflict, countless xenos rushing, and getting mowed down with relative ease.
When the player reaches the comms console, after bagging themselves a shotgun and, within a secret, a prototype weapon based off of predator technology: XAMUL-5. These are comparatively weak in comparison to weapons received later on, but this should still feel like a disk-one nuke up until the first boss(es), in which the player is not intended to win, but managing to do it will give the player a reward.
After the comms are re-initiated, slam all the doors to the room shut immidiately, and pour in high quantities of drones from the vents. As the player fights off this ambush, introduce them to several characters on the comms, one becoming the player's advisor and director- but able to be freely ignored. Once all three waves have been eliminated, cue in the first of transmissions from "VOX"
Vox is to inform the player that they have shut the doors in the best intrest of the player and their mutual employer, no doubt of the Weyland-Yutani corporation. As a show of this, the doors now are under assailment, massive blade slices gouging through the doors. Over time, the structures of the doors weaken, until bursting forward with the player's first pair of bosses: Ravager-Castes.
[next post]
depends on the character tbqh famicom
an inexperienced teen or twenty-something year old character should change after experiencing a lot of things, both good and bad, during the game's story (Tidus, Wakka)
A middle-aged character who already went through a lot?
Not really, or not as much (Auron)
>>321678461
What about a sheltered middle-aged character being thrown in the thick of it?
>>321678697
Any character of any age can stay the same or change. There's no fucking rule to storytelling. Jesus christ.
>>321679270
Not if they're trying to make a believable character. Different experiences change people in some way, especially young people
>>321679695
>UP
>Old man changes (or reverts back to his old self before his wife died)
>little kid doesn't change
>both go on the same adventure in a flying house and save a bird from an asshole
oh man, what a shit movie! The little kid didn't question his beliefs!
toriyama's getting really aggressive lately with his FF13 apologist threads
>>321652814
Yeah buddy because your RPG party just being beholden to events is fucking amazing. There's no need for interactivity in video games!
Snow was plenty developed, if you know what I mean.
>>321680802
There's character-driven narrative and there's event-driven narrative. That poster wasn't talking about RPGs, only the OP implied it.
Besides, character development is hardly ever interactive, so your last sentence is a meaningless mess.
>>321680802
>characters can't react to events without their personalities completely changing in the process
>>321652991
That's not how you spell Huey.
>>321681454
>character development means personalities completely change
I like it when the ideals of a character are dragged through the mud as the story progresses and they end up jaded in the end and unsure of what to do next.
>>321649989
In real life people don't change that much. Character development is mostly hype and cliche. It's usually ohhh I'm too weak to win in the beginning then it's like I'm strong enough now
>>321681782
In MGS5 I can rescue his bitch ass right now or should I wait until I have to do it?
I have heard mixed things about him
I don't think I've ever seen someone say character development is a bad thing in my life til now.
>>321682673
well, Squall's development in FF8 was ass because it tied into the crappy romance
>>321648697
>The best characters are the ones that stay true to their beliefs until the end.
That doesn't imply no character development. Why are you such an attention-thirsty piece of shit?
>>321682571
>In real life people don't change that much
In real life people usually don't go through the things your average video game character does
>>321682896
Problem with character development is its mostly made of self doubt. If you were a real hero you wouldn't have self doubt and stand strong by your convictions. Not everybody needs to change and when humans go through bad experiences it's barely a month before they forget it ever happened or just move on
>>321683335
That is foolishness. Any reasonable person will reflect on and examine their beliefs, cause, purpose, etc. after experiencing a major event related to it. In real life you should always gain something from a bad experience and that will affect your future choices for better or worse even if only in a subtle way.
>>321683335
>when humans go through bad experiences it's barely a month before they forget it ever happened or just move on
depends on what said "bad experience" was, anon
drug addiction, death of your child, debilitating illnesses etc. can, and usually do, have lasting effects
>>321648697
He's cute desu
>>321672503
FFXVs ingame cutscenes already look better than the CG from AC
Obviously the only advantage AC has is pre rendered so multiple render passes for AA
>>321684501
god I can't wait for XV
>>321685331
I can, it's not going to be a long wait after all.
>>321685391
What makes you say that?
>>321683335
Dude you might have emotional and mental issues if you think that's how real people are. Seek help.
>>321681995
t. Satan
>>321685702
What are you trying to say?
>>321684501
I know he's supposed to be an emo hero but damn was it cool when Cloud flashed that smug smile for once
>>321682673
Noone is earnestly saying that (or at least they weren't in the first half of the thread), see >>321658541, >>321670553 and >>321656918.
>>321685702
You obviously haven't read russian literature.
>>321657383
That was one dank movie.
>>321676323
I think OP just doesn't understand what Development means.
>>321654859
Have you? The entire story is dealing with Achillies being furious at being denied his rightful spoils, which evolves into him being more concerned about eternal glory vs a good life, which gets turned upside down by Patroclus' death and gets him angry about his personal stake in the war, until finally he makes peace with his destiny and inevitable early death. The whole story shows Achillies' character going through changes, with anger as the constant. Most old greek myths were also coming of age stories as a youth became a great man by achieving something. Greek myth had plenty of character development.
>>321688342
> The entire story is dealing with Achillies being furious at being denied his rightful spoils, which evolves into him being more concerned about eternal glory vs a good life, which gets turned upside down by Patroclus' death and gets him angry about his personal stake in the war, until finally he makes peace with his destiny and inevitable early death. The whole story shows Achillies' character going through changes, with anger as the constant.
Other than
>until finally he makes peace with his destiny and inevitable early death.
, most of that seems like emotional responses to specific events, rather than a continuous process of character development.
>Greek myth had plenty of character development.
I think the point of the guy you quoted was that you can have good stories which aren't pivoted on character development, rather than that all greek myths were devoid of character development. Even if he did miss some of the nuance in the Illiad.
