Title says it all
Thoughts?
Who /Kirby/ here
>Ganondorf from A to E
Guess people figured out how to play against him.
Aside from that, I'm not very surprised.
>>321643125
>Fox literally a Brawl Meta Knight tier
Lmao
>>321643506
Actually, Meta Knight is in a tier of his own even higher than that. Ice Climbers are S tier, same as Fox in Melee, while Meta Knight is SS.
>>321643506
>Meta Knight in Brawl
>Has 1.0
>Fox in Melee
>Has 1.13
Not exactly the same
>>321643250
Since the 64 days. Up to sm4sh.
This is why these games are stupid. If fox is objectively the best you have no reason to play any other character.
>>321643125
The game is so fucking unblanaced, I don't get why people still play it when Project M did a much better job at balancing than Nintendo ever did?
I get that people don't want to play Sm4sh because they like to abuse the Melee engine, but why not Project M when it's just better?
>>321643717
Despite the stereotype, tournament players are in the end interested in having fun. Fun is the reason why Fox isn't played exclusively.
>>321643610
>>321643610
I was meaning more in terms of being at the top of the tier list on their own dominating everyone else.
That's one thing you can't say about 64 or 4, they are alot more balanced by far
>>321643610
Look again, fox is SS.
>A tier list
>for a casual party game
>>321643864
We can't say for sure about 4 yet, but there are certainly three characters that really dominate 4 so far, Sheik in particular making some characters all but unviable to play as.
>>321643896
Nevermind me, I didn't pay enough attention.
>>321643814
Or they play who they play because they enjoy the play style. Almost all the top players if they don't main fox have a pocket or secondary in Fox. He's that centralizing that everyone HAS to use him at some point. Usually when something in a meta is incredibly over centralizing it gets banned.
>>321644115
>Or they play who they play because they enjoy the play style.
That's pretty much the same thing.
>>321643805
Most people don't like Project M on /v/. This is due to the fact that it is a mod of a Nintendo game. I agree wholeheartedly that Project M is the most fun and enjoyable out of all the Smash games with Melee being a close second. I really enjoy PM cause of the stages, character changes to fit more to their series, and the costumes are god tier.
>>321644010
>Sheik in particular making some characters all but unviable to play as
Yes as top tier characters tend to do in all fighting games. But Sheik is not untouchable and even A tier can give her trouble
>>321644182
>This is due to the fact that it is a mod of a Nintendo game.
Nah, it's mostly related to all the P:M shitposting threads that appeared during 4's development. People got tired of it, then more shitposting arose from haters, which never really stopped.
Why do people enjoyfighting gamesthat are this unbalanced? All you ever see in competitive is a handful of characters because of it. I know we'll end up with tiers in every kind of game, but wouldn't you rather play or watch a game with more variety?
wow, its fucking nothing
>fan voted
>>321644010
Nah it's not as bad as people make it out to be. It's more Zero is invalidating people and he only uses the top tier character. Hes dropped sets and almost dropped them to Mario, Pikachu, ZSS, and even Robin before.
Shiek is number one but the gap between her and the bottom and Melee Fox and the bottom is vastly different
>>321643125
Climbers are being far overrated and Luigi is still too low.
>>321644358
Why do you think so many people would like a new Melee?
They find that the gameplay makes up for the character imbalance. Take the same engine and add new stages and characters and proper balancing, and people would definitely move on to that.
>>321643805
Why would I play a slapped together emulation of Melee with shitty brawl chars on a really REALLY bad engine when I still have the real deal.
>>321644358
theres more variety in gameplay in SSBM than any other "fighting game."
I know when you first get into it all you can see is the characters but the amount of variety due to the engine being so crazy is astounding.
Look at fox played by mango/leffen/armada and it's all ridiculously different.
>>321644480
>I don't know who wobbles is
>I havent gone to a local where an icies player completely shuts down all mid level competition
>>321644165
But you missed the part where I said people have to have a pocket Fox even if they don't enjoy the play style of Fox. The difference in Jiggs and Fox's play styles is drastic. It's like in Pokemon when one Pokemon is so strong everyone has to use its counter on their teams. Those Pokemon get banned
>>321643125
Marth> sheik? K bro!
>>321644873
wobbles, fly and nintendude being amazing speaks about them as players, not their char. Thats like saying yoshi deserves to he higher simply because of amsa.
>>321644358
Melee can be this way alot if you watch stuff like EVO you can see alot of fox, but still there are samus pikachu falco marth falcon peach and more, and the fun out of this games is how free style is compared to other fighting games, up to this day we see new combos and such with the characters
>>321643125
Seems about right. Is this NTSC or PAL, though?
>>321645089
Fly and nintendude aren't half of wobbles first off, secondly no, thats not all there is to icies. The second an area gets a decent icies he immediately dominates all locals and mid level players until they break into the higher echelons.
>>321643125
non-competitive smash player here. What's the real difference between an S rank (i.e. Falco) and the lower rank characters (i.e. Kirby)? Is it the quality of their moves? i-frames?
>>321645026
I didn't miss it, I just didn't see a need to adress it. I already touched on that when I said they didn't play Fox exclusively.
Also, it's much easier to ban things in Pokemon when there are so many Pokemon to choose from. Even with so many imbalanced Pokemon banned, there are still hundreds of viable team compositions.
>For a list of all Brazilian tier lists, click here.
I find that funnier than I probably should.
>>321645227
NTSC, this is what PAL looks like.
>>321645089
First off you just named three people, not just one, who uses a character. Second, Icies have great matchup with all low tier, but struggle sometimes with high tier. That is why they are all that placement. They shut down low tier no problem and have multiple good result in a tournament.
>>321643125
>Luigi climbing Melee's tiers
>already near the top of Sm4sh's tiers
Finally
my dedication to the slippery wop is paying off
Oh look fox is still the only character that matters
>>321645406
My nigga.
>>321645326
That's odd. I know I'm not taking all version differences into account here, but shouldn't Link be better on NTSC, rather than PAL?
>>321643250
>who /masochist/ here
Ftfy
>>321643715
You've really had your ups and downs, huh?
Peach will be top 7 in Smash 4 by February I guarantee it. Fucking shit Sakurai cannot balance anything
>>321643125
Welcome to 2 weeks ago slowpoke
I understand why Ganon is above Mario but anyone who plays Melee could list you a billion reasons about how Mario has better tools for competetive play and the neutral game in every way. Mario just had a tad less tourney results than Ganon, probably because he has an identical clone who has a better projectile, upB cancel, and a much better combo finisher.
In fact I think Doc is the only identical clone in Melee now that I think about it? All other clones have physics differences, Mario and Doc have plenty of moves that are really similar and they have the exact same physics
>>321643717
Fox is hard and people enjoy playing other characters.
Despite that there ARE a huge amount of fox players.
Most high and top level players have a pocket or secondary fox. Half of the gods have a fox.
Hell, even low levels are super saturated with foxes despite not being able to take advantage of him.
>>321646281
Which is why I think they should start soft banning him. It's too saturated with Foxes, low and mid level players don't even bother trying to find characters they like and just go straight to Fox because it's the only way the think they can succeed. Fox invalidates so much that it would help diversify the meta
>>321646968
That's probably a bad idea.
People are going to flock en masse to the highest tiered character no matter what.
If you soft ban fox, everyone's just gonna go to Marth or Falco.
>>321643717
Fox has a high barrier of entry to be good with. Plus, Fox has matchups that are even with other characters on the list. Not everyone has the ability either physically mentally of playing Fox well.
I'm not terribly familiar with tier lists
What do the numbers below their portraits represent?
>>321647180
I guess it's just some score they slapped on, the lower the better obviously.
>>321646968
Thats just newshitters being newshitters. They shouldnt ruin it for everyone
Besides he doesnt pose so much of a problem that they need to "soft ban" him, jesus thats fucking dumb
>>321647302
Yeah, probably just numbers based on votes the panel did (smash council, melee backroom, whoever does these things)
The fact that some people even voted Fox as not the best is silly
shitpost
>>321649054
delete this
>pichu is supposed to be the game's intentionally bad joke character
>kirby and bowser, two actual characters, end up being worse than him
kinda reminds me of how jigglypuff is supposed to be smash 64's joke character (according to sakurai) even though she turned out to be decent in that game.
>>321644601
Because you have a double digit IQ?
>>321643125
Serious question: what makes Fox so good?
>>321643717
>>321643805
>falco has a winning matchup against fox
>marth has a chaingrab on fox on FD
>jiggs has up-throw rest
Fox may be the best, but he isn't broken. There are ways to beat him.
>Hbox beating the best foxes with an A tier
Hbox is the greatest melee player?
>>321649839
I thought fox had no losing mus. Evens at worst
>>321647506
Fox is the best, but not a tier of his own. That's just stupid.
>>321643717
Yeah Fox is the best character but by a slim margin. He can still get more easily juggled and bodied than any other character besides Bowser if you don't know what you're doing.
>>321649861
>Armada consistently beats him
>Armada has won tournaments beating Mango and Leffen with Peach
Lmao not even close.
>>321645406
I dropped Luigi for Mario. Fuck that sliding insanity. Get pushed away from every smash attack.
>>321647180
tier in fighting games are often based on averaging out each character matchup which is easy to understand but inherently flawed. i imagine thats what they did to get the numbers. not saying this list is flawed or anything though seems reasonable
>>321649723
His options and tools
>>321649910
Most people will say Falco has a winning mu against Fox. Fox goes nearly even with Marth, but still beats him.
>>321643805
>The game is so fucking unblanaced
Find me a balanced fighting game, or a game more balanced than Melee.
At least in melee 10 characters down to C tier is high level viable. Compare that to Third Strike where its just Chun, Yun and Ken.
>>321650036
>consistently
>except most recent tournament
>losing a 65-35 matchup as SS vs A
You can't deny it
>>321643805
Because no one gives a fuck about MUs in a party game that only a tiny fraction of its playerbase turn into some kind of high level competitive thing. I'd rather they spent more time on other things than trying to perfectly balance a game inherently designed to have lots of RNG and lolrandom moments.
>>321649723
Speed, tools, recover options, knock back and damage output.
They literally designed him to be best at 1v1 matches. It even says so in his trophy description.
>>321650274
64 and smash 4 are far more balanced than Melee. Fox invalidates half the low tiers in this game. Smash 4 Sheik invalidates like three characters in 4
>>321650280
>cherry picking the one time Hbox beat him
>has lost to him at every other tournament this year
Hbox is reddit the person, if you like him get the fuck out.
>>321650274
>Falcon
>Pikachu
>high level viable
Good meme
>>321650528
>losing matchup with 2 tiers lower character
>winning ever
Armada should be ashamed.
>>321650440
>Fox invalidates half the low tiers in this game.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Shiek is actually the reason low tiers don't exist in Melee. Yes, everyone assumes its Fox because they see Fox at the top, so he must be the reason. And while he has great matchups on them, he still gets juggled hard by literally any character.
Shiek has chain grabs to death on like half the roster.
>>321650280
He won in a version that makes the matchup easier for puff though. Also he has gotten wrecked by armada at almost every other tournament this year.
>>321650582
Axe places top 4 to top 8 in like every tournament, what are you talking about? That still absolutely qualifies as high level.
Also Falcon players are Pre-Madonnas. If they can't get their way they'll just play a Space Animal or Shiek.
>>321650818
>losing a 60-40 matchup with SS character against A
Still terrible. Armada needs to get better.
>>321650753
Fox has a 80-20 on every single G and F tier that's invalidation
>>321643717
>players all use different characters
>but all have a "pocket Fox"
>if they get their balls rocked too hard they'll switch and stick to pocket Fox the whole rest of the major
You can't make this shit up.
>>321643506
Brawl MK is even better though, at least Fox isn't banned like MK used to be & is now.
>>321651021
But if he got better then Hbox would forever be second instead of letting him win once every 3 years
>>321650931
That must mean Yoshi is high level competitive because amsa
>>321651228
>literally had to stop maining pech because he got whopped by puff
yea he just better hope hbox doesn't take up fox
>fulltime job on top of melee as well
all these handicaps so Armada should literally never lose to him.
>>321650753
Yeah Melee Sheik is dumb as fuck, and unlike Fox she doesn't break your hands when playing.
>>321651059
Did you read what I said, go reread it.
Chain grabs to death. As in you can't escape being regrabbed. It is on par with wobbling, but can only be done on half the roster. That me half the roster is guaranteed to lose.
Let me break it down so you get it.
Chain
Grab
To
Death.
Also Sheik doesn't get juggled.
Face it, you don't know what you're talking about. You looked up matchups on Smash wiki and you think you know what you're talking about, but you don't.
>>321651362
The Sm4sh one is very outdated.
>>321651362
>That PM character spread
>>321651253
He doesn't even rank in top 16 consistently, are you actually autistic?
>>321651473
Sounds like ice climbers are the reason then.
>wobble to death every character
>>321643125
> yoshi below samus
ah yeah I remember that time duck beat amsa and got into the top 4. Oh wait...
>>321651586
Sheik's chaingrab is a lot easier to pull off & it isn't reliant on Nana staying alive.
>>321644358
it's really, really, really hard to balance a roster, especially with 20+ characters. it just doesn't happen very often. people tend to choose which game to play based on other factors and just deal with however the balance turns out to be
How come melee players dont move onto real fighting games?
Seems autistic
>>321651586
Holy shit, I hope you're just baiting because you must actually be brain dead.
Shiek is way faster, stronger, doesn't need to rely on an NPC to chain grab, has way better recovery and has the second best projectile in the game.
To reiterate, You don't know what you're talking about.
>>321651927
I'll body the shit out of you in Third Strike if you want, what is your gamertag?
If a fighting game has tier lists, that is a surefire sign that it is not a balanced game.
>>321651927
why does it bother you so much
>>321652209
So every game in existance?
>>321652209
nah, if in tournaments were alot of good players show up there is just one character, then it is unbalanced, tho melee is unbalanced because it was never meant to be balanced
>>321652295
It doesnt really just curious
>>321643805
>Project M
The game where Fox is #1 in the tier list and Bowser is at the bottom? Sounds familiar...
>>321651253
>Fox accounts for 48% of Melee top 32s
>even higher than Brawl Meta Knight only makes up 35%
>meleefags will defend this
>>321652158
Stick to party games, manchild
>>321652417
Dude, come on, you wanna play street fighter or what? What's your tag?
>>321649839
>Jiggs has upthrow rest
>still a 70-30 matchup in favor of Fox
>>321652537
no one plays 3SO, it's GGPO or bust
who /dr mario/ in here
never paid too much attention to tier lists but he surely moved down, right?
>>321652454
>top 32s
Hate to break it to you but anything under top 8 means nothing competitively. If you are going to go by top 32 you might as well factor in everyone in a damn tourney.
>>321652494
pshh, I knew you were a scrub. You probably can't even Double Corner DP. Worse yet, I bet you can't even DP.
>>321652454
I'm not a Meleefag but since Melee has been out for over 13 years it's obvious that high autismal players are that skilled that even slight advantages make a big difference in character choices.
Also
>top 32
l0l
>>321652698
He's on his way down because no one has managed to fill the void Shroomed left.
>>321644182
>Project M is the most fun and enjoyable out of all the Smash games
that's a funny way of spelling Brawl Minus
>>321652791
>Double Corner DP
I bet you're irredeemably bad at both Smash and SF
>>321652671
Untrue, plenty of people on 360 play 3S. Also pretty sure GGPO is down due to DDosing. How about USFIV?
>>321652754
>top 32 means nothing in 400+ player majors
Even top eight that's 42% Fox which is retarded
>>321653037
meant Fightcade, same thing more or less but newer
muh roster
fuck gameplay
>>321652950
Play me in street fighter scrub and find out. Unless you're a punk faggot.
>>321653231
He doesn't even own the game. Don't waste your time.
>>321653231
name on Fightcade?
>>321644358
Meleefags could watch fox vs fox matches from day till night, and never get bored cause each player would play him differently, so each match up would have different gameplay.
Don't mean this as a insult of any kind, just that they enjoy gameplay the most.
>>321652426
I thought Olimar was bottom
>>321653598
You could literally say the same thing about any game you idiot
Thats not exclusive to melee
>>321649723
what the other people said. most notably, his reflector (commonly known as shine) has a 1 frame startup as well as a consistent knock back regardless of percent. this allows for consistent shield pressure and activation directly after landing aerial moves as well as the ability to gimp (or kill at low percents) offstage by "shine spiking".
as I said, the other replies are also true. he simply has the quickest moves with stupid damage and knock back for how quickly they come out. if you know about L canceling, or shortening the landing lag of a real moves, he also happens to have some if not all of the quickest. combine that with shining directly after etc etc.
good chain grabs, finishing moves, can wave shine to lock floaty characters into guaranteed kills
>>321653917
'a real' = aerial**
>new
Same fucking characters at the top. Try again when there is another shakeup. Then you can probably drum up interest for your dinosaur game.
*places overly defensive, shaky, clinging to self delusion, comment here about how Fox is balanced and not the best character in Melee, while he has a whole fucking tier above everyone else all to himself*
What makes Fox so good in the first place though?
>>321651473
>It is on par with wobbling
Wobbling takes timing and skill. It's dumb, but not sheik cg dumb
>>321643125
>kirby last
>Pikachu is considered better than Samus now
There is still yet hope for the cheeky rat of gimping
>>321643125
>1.13
What does it mean?
>>321653598
Fox vs Fox does get boring after awhile though. It's honestly only entertaining to me now if it's very top level Fox. Mid-level Fox just doesn't do it for me anymore.
>>321643125
terrible groupings, honestly Fox should be in S with Falco, Marth, and Sheik.
>>321654432
Kirby is a fucking travesty in Melee.
>>321643125
Pichu better than Kirby? God damn
>>321655705
Pichu is a bad version of a good character.
Melee Kirby is the worst character in the series
>>321655705
Honestly, Pichu should be higher than Ness and Zelda too. Pichu actually has a recovery unlike Ness, mobility, decent edgeguarding and his nair is actually really good. He also has a free chain grab on fast fallers.
>>321655190
it means that over all the people who were asked to place the characters in numerical order of power, fox averaged a 1.3, meaning he was 90% of the time #1 on everyone's list
>>321656489
who the fuck DIDNT put fox as #1?
>>321656593
Mango and PPMD both see marth as the best character in the game.
why is Kirby so shit in Melee?
>>321656678
Sakurai saw how good he was in 64 and overnerfed him
>>321656675
Mango is an idiot savant and PPMD went nuts from living in isolation in the mountains for so long.
>>321656771
Yeah but how? I haven't played Melee since I was a kid I don't remember how he was.
>>321656945
He gets hit out of his own combos due to not enough hitstun. He can't approach for shit. His shffl is slow as dicks. To top it all off he has no KO power.
Really the only thing he has going for him is edgeguards.
>>321651202
actually when most people try their pocket Fox they usually lose.
>>321656945
Everything is weak as shit, nothing has punch to it. His aerial hammer just kind of lightly taps the enemy.
He's slow, he's weak, you can mash out of his throws.
He has literally nothing going for him but kirbycides.
>>321656945
No approach, no combos (less combos than Brawl Kirby), lightweight, super gimpable recovery, no reliable ways to get KOs, floatiness means he can't even take advantage of Fox/Falco lasers if he manages to inhale a space animal, the list goes on.
>>321652698
right here mane. I've been perfecting my jump canceled up-b but it's been tough implementing it in matches. Anyone got tips on the Shiek mu?
>>321654169
it's pretty much universally agreed among the top players (the ones that actually matters) that the "SS" tier is just bullshit. Fox is most likely the best character but not in a tier of his own.
>What makes Fox so good in the first place though?
His neutral game is one of the best, best movement speed, fast faller allowing for easy combos (but you're combo food in return), shine is a ridiculous move that is active on the first frame and can set up for kills and gimp. His kill power is pretty crazy as well and NTSC version made his recovery better and his up smash strongerlol. Good out of shield options and shield pressure tools.
>>321656945
His fucking forward throw doesn't even work. You can mash out of his throw while he is executing it, it's pretty hilarious
>>321650931
>Pre-Madonnas
I hope this was intentional, but I can no longer take such things for granite in this doggy dog world
>>321657158
>>321657236
>>321659413
Shit and people say Sakurai is biased to his own series. They seemed to have done him right in Smash 4 he has a million fucking combos and he definitely has hit power now
>>321660053
but not against the characters that matter.
>>321660053
It's fairly obvious that sakurai doesn't really understand what makes a character good/bad so it's kinda silly to blame him for balance stuff.
>>321660053
Sakurai balanced that shit all by himself and it was his second try.
Not to mention the game was rushed out in less than a year.
It's amazing the game even functions.
>>321643125
>his game has a tier list that goes below B
>>321643805
>I don't get why people still play it when Project M did a much better job at balancing than Nintendo ever did?
What is it with retarded redditors that make them end statements with a question mark?
>>321643125
>be me
>ness main
>roy/pichu my backup picks
>they pick fox
>oh boy here we go again
>fuck ness
>pick pichu
>demolish his ass
>"im not feeling it today"
>salty as fuck, he is
>storms out of tournament
>get my ass handed to me by a ganon as roy
>no sweat
>loser bracket
>go jiggly for shits and gigs
>end up stomping loser bracket
>win with ness in last match against some captain falcon
tiers mean nothing as long as you know what youre doing.
if you lose to a fox player, then so be it but if you know what youre doing this isnt an issue - even if you have recoil damage
>>321643125
I honestly expected Yoshi to come up to Samus/Pikachu level but I'm guessing he'll always be stuck just below the regular competitive level because of no OOS game.
>>321643481
after 14 years?
>>321643506
Welcome to literally every Smash game.
Sakurai can't balance and never could.
Also, here's the Project meme tier list
>>321661725
>Kirby and Bowser still at the bottom
>Fox at the top
but why
>>321661219
>I won against bad people who played good characters
WoooooooooooooooooW
>>321661814
Fox is objectively worse but top Fox players in Melee use him in PM and playing him is still generally the same despite nerfs.
>>321661725
>PM is supposed to be the messiah of balance
>still falls into the trap of "Light fast characters on top, heavies on bottom"
>>321661814
staying true to the original :)most of them are just under-represented in the tournament scene.
>>321649723
Lasers can be fired twice per short hop, each SH takes 25 frames. Each individual laser does 3%. They rack up damage quick, and you can't challenge them mindlessly because the Fox can mix-up a N-air into the SHs. They're essentially a win Neutral button in almost every match-up.
Shine is basically a DP, invincibility and hitbox on frame 1, with 0 Knockback growth, which means your opponent is always going to be autocomboed into the most potent kill move in the game, his Up-Smash, which kills absurdly early.
He's fast, his jump is great for empty jump mix-ups because of how fast it is compared to the rest of the cast, all of his aerial normals do good damage and stay active for a bit, his recovery is good etc.
>>321662026
>>still falls into the trap of "Light fast characters on top, heavies on bottom"
Shouldn't Pichu be top tier then?
>>321661704
>64 pikachu
>The existence of Melee Sheik, ice climbers
>the pitiful existence of Melee Kirby, Bowser and Ness
>Brawl Meta Knight
>Brawl D3
>The pitful existence of Brawl Falcon and Dorf
>Rosalinas gravitational pull
>Shiek in general
This is pretty true
>>321661826
i had never seen the fox player before.
after the tournament the shop owner informed me that i was the first person to beat him in weeks.
YouTube>r4wguy
Some old smash videos I made. Some in tournaments some were friendlies.
I've competed in many tournaments
It's always the same tier list : fox falco shiek Marth
>>321662154
A few characters manage to break the stereotype.
Ike and Snake are high up there and Squirtle is low.
>>321662026
ROB is a heavy though.
>>321662009
>>321662028
You know what would really convince me to play a Project M-like mod? If they intentionally made Fox the worst character and Kirby and Bowser the best.
>>321662160
64 Kirby is honestly more horseshit than Pikachu.
>>321662026
No one has the balls to make slow, heavy characters actually hit hard.
>>321662625
I'd say Smash 4 Ike is doing pretty well in that regard, he's one of the highest ranked heavies in any Smash game sans Snake
>>321662225
>after the tournament the shop owner informed me that i was the first person to beat him in weeks.
How is this any indication of good he is? Just because he's a 10 year old beating up toddlers doesn't mean you're Muhammed Ali because you beat him
>>321662625
Slow, heavy characters usually do hit hard. The problem is that's all they do. Smash is a game about options and being able to deal with multiple situations. It's why snake is the only good heavy in the entire series
>>321643125
Marth
Fox
Falco/Sheik
Puff
Peach
Icies
Samus
Falcon
Pika
Yoshi
Luigi
Ganon/Doc
Mario
YL/Link/DK
G&W/Roy/M2/Zelda/Ness/Pichu
Kirby
Bowser
Marth is the best character in the game.
>>321662625
Heavies in smash 4 hit pretty damn hard.
Huge hitboxes and poor movement are just a hinderance in smash's systems. They're kinda conceptually fucked.
DK, ROB and Ike make due though at least.
>>321662461
Pikachu has actual kill throws, an invincible Quick Attack, crazy combos, Thunder doesn't have a cloud, and F-Smash. Not even Bigger Kirby can stand up to Pikachu in 64.
>>321662853
Well lots of heavyweights have been good.
Like ROB, Ike, DK, Yoshi, Ryu, Megaman, Snake.
Brawl DDD is the only superheavy that's actually been really good though.
>>321663347
Literally the only thing that puts Pika above Kirby is his Up-B.
>>321663353
Snake was both heavier and better than DDD in Brawl.
>>321662973Rob is a heavy character
>>321663553
Oh shit he is. By one unit.
I always thought snake was heavy, not superheavy but turns out he's the third fucking heaviest.
Goddamn.
I guess being 6ft of pure muscle and having all that equipment must make him weigh a ton.
>>321663353
>>321663553
brawl D3 wasn't even good. He was just a broken gatekeeper. He folds against all of the actually good characters
>>321663353
Megaman counts as a heavy?
>>321663779
He's ever so slightly lighter than Falcon.
5 units lighter than Ike, who is undisputedly heavy.
>>321663741
I don't see why Snake would be any heavier than Samus. Really he should probably be on par with Link in weight.
>>321663920
Link is a manlet. Snake has just as much equipment on him.
I'd say he should be around samus's weight.
Similar height, but with more muscle.
But whatever, smash weights make no sense. See: Mewtwo.
>>321663893
I guess the problem is I was looking at how close he is to Mario. I always assumed Mario was the middle weight but he's actually in the top 40%.
>>321663920
From what I've heard his model was originally significantly larger than it ended up being. They scaled it down for the final game but neglected to scale down his weight or his hitboxes to match.
>>321664110
Link is a manlet but TP link has on chainmail. Plus they both have a fuckton of projectiles but Link has a sword and shield on top of that.
>>321643125
>pichu ranked up again
Told you all he's not entirely useless
>>321664143
Yep. Mario's the heaviest middleweight.
He's been eating too much pasta.
I guess it makes sense. He's chubby.
>>321643125
It's the same exact shit.
>>321664378
>Pichu will never return as DLC for Smash 4 where he can take advantage of the Rage mechanic
Can you imagine how beastly he'd become?
>>321664529
>Pichu will never return as DLC for Smash 4
Thank god
>>321664303
Eh, it's not really much of a difference between Link and Samus anyway.
>>321664596
You wouldn't be forced to buy him, so what's your problem?
>>321664529
i want him as a multihit damage management character, where his electric attacks do what i said and his crouch recovers health like PM ivysaur
>>321664797
>wanting a worse version of another character
you and lucinafags can fuck off
>>321664797wasted slot
>>321651362
Proof that PM is the best and most balanced Smash game.
>Captain Fuckman drops three entire tiers
What happen?
>>321664110
>See: Mewtwo
Why are Mewtwo and Palutena lightweights? Palutena's big, has a big heavy staff and shield,and feels slower and clunkier than Bowser. She can't at least be heavy?
>>321664970
How do you know he'd be worse in 4? Roy's better than Marth in 4.
>>321651927
I think that most fighting games are boring.
The only one I ever played other than Smash was Heritage for the Future, and that game is on life support.
>>321665158
>Palutena's big
She's like 5'7" and thin.
>>321664889
Play Brawl- then cause he's exactly what you described.
>>321654432
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpsGaqhcAmw
>>321665089
Smash 64 is the only one where literally every character placed.
>>321665173
because pichu's whole gimmick was being a worse pikachu. It's fundamentally different from roy who just got screwed over by the stat changes and hitbox adjustments.
>>321643125
>The letter placements have changed to signify the greater gap between characters
Oooooh shit
Also
>Falcon mains on the voting board are still more prominent than Pika mains, and can't let go of the fact that Falcon can't hang with the big boys anymore
>>321665158
Sakurais logic is that, because Mewtwo can float with his psychic powers and Rosalina floats by manipulating gravity, they're extremely light and easy to push around because they float, because when something floats that means it has no mass, don't'cha know. Never mind the fact that Mewtwo can use his powers to make himself immovable and Rosalina has mastery over the most primal constant force in the universe.
>>321650274
Ok.
TvC
UNIEL
Melty Blood
ST
Smash 4
>>321665260
>She's like 5'7"
same as Charizard. Taller than Link.
>>321645303
Not just that. Movement options and ways to play. Falco has a myriad of ways to deal with different opponents. Kirby has very few way to deal with the wide variety of play styles his opponents can have.
>>321665142
He fucking sucks.
>>321665549
Same height as Cloud, Mac and Shulk too.
>>321661219
Tiers don't mean shit!
A G&W player knew how to counter my Fox decently, so I ran him 4 stock as Yoshi.
And I say Marth is the best character when it comes to fighting other high tiers.
>>321665385
The game only has 12 characters and has been out for almost 20 years. It was bound to happen sometime.
>>321665420
Pichu's electric attacks have more damage and knockback than Pikachu's, and he's very hard to hit being so small and agile. Now imagine that with Rage powering him up early thanks to the recoil. He'd be a literal glass cannon high-risk high-reward fighter.
>>321662973
Dedede would have good everything in smash 4 if he wasn't fucking 55th in airspeed and nair/dtilt came out faster. And dtilt's hitbox actually made sense.
God I hate this game.
>>321643923
good thing you saw this thread and came in here to tell everyone this
people have been playing this competitively for over a decade
good thing this post will probably stop them
thanks anon
>fan votes
literally irrelevant. Most fans don't know jackshit.
>>321665158
>Palutena's big
Palutena is barely taller than Pit in Uprising, and displays no ability to change size. Only to project a large image of herself. Many people mistake her for an amazon and treat her as such because that's their fetish. In truth, Smash is just full of manlets.
>>321661605
King of Shield drops.
>>321643125
>samus will never be anything above average again
JUST
>>321665498
>rosa increases her gravity to pull objects thrown at her towards her
>when used in the air the sudden change in her gravity doesn't cause her to instantly plummet down into the blast zone
Bravo Samurai
>>321665456
dude the problem with falcon not having won any majors is because all of falcon's top players are simply not as good as the top players for spacies or pika. we just need someone like axe to come play falcon. i think the best falcons are definitely s2j, gahtzu and maybe wizzy, but when s2j and gahtzu go off they go hard as fuck.
>>321666214
if her mass increases then she wouldn't fall any faster
Genesis 3 is going to be ridiculous for all games but I have a gut feeling that in the end its going to be ARMADAWINSLOL, ZEROWINSLOL, ISAIWINSLOL.
>>321650440
>Sheik invalidates like three characters in 4
>>321666156
Samus has been climbing niggerm8. Plup uses her as his main Leffen wrecking tool and Duck is climbing ranks too, and Hugs has always been good.
>>321666551
Leffen is just bad vs Samus
>>321650440
>Smash 4 Sheik invalidates like three characters in 4
Needles and fair alone invalidate more than half the cast. What's up with these retards not knowing their own game.
>>321666449
She increases the amount of gravity under her body, that sudden change means she would have to "push" back against it with equal force. Given the fact she's airborne that's not possible and it should send her downward
>>321643481
It's more EVERYONE started playing him, so people figured out quickly how to shut him down.
Really the top tiers have bad match ups against certain low tiers. It's more about match ups than just straight tiers. Samus does extremely well against spacies but not against marth/shiek. Link honest does very well against Marth. Pichu actually does extremely well against Falcon; he chain grabs to like 90% on fast fallers, he's super hard to hit, and his nair combos into all his moves. I think people really over estimate tiers and playing non-standard characters gives you a huge edge against most players. Often they'll make excuses about not knowing match ups or combos but it's no excuse to lose they just got out played. Really just play whoever is fun and you win with.
Also whoever put Pichu that low is a fool.
>>321666535
>>321666769
Please go ahead and list them samefag. I'll save you the trouble its Ganondorf, D3, Jr., Duck Hunt, and Bowser
>>321667047
Sheik invalidates any character that can't deal with projectiles easily.
So basically anybody without a reflector or a projectile of their own.
>>321667047
Anybody without an aerial move that comes out before frame 7.
There, you should know all those characters.
>>321643923
But there's a tier list for literally every game with multiple playable characters
http://z11.invisionfree.com/DB_Competitive/ar/t579.htm
>>321667047
Jigglypuff
