Why don't people make games with high quality sprites anymore?
Why put in the effort when the fucking mongoloids buy awful half-done pixelshit?
>>321518927
They do.
More so than back then.
>>321518927
Good sprites are hard as fuck to make. Especially if you are doing an entire game of them, 3D is much much easier and every step of the animation doesn't need drawn. I wish they were still popular though just because they age so much better than 3d models.
>>321518927
Because when pixel art reaches a certain resolution it becomes pointless (xD).
The character sprites in your image are still justifiable, but that big monster and the background have no reason to not be simply painted.
Effort is no longer rewarded in this industry because consumers have terrible standards.
>>321519167
>3D is much much easier
that's why all indie games are 3D, right?
>>321518927
Too bad legend of mana was a terrible game.
They really fucked up with that one.
>>321520080
because shitty 3d is a lot worse and jarring than shitty="pixelart" 2d.
>>321520248
so in other words it takes more effort to make 3d good looking than 2d?
is that what you are saying now?
>>321520131
this x 1000
how can these fucks take such a step back from Seiken Densetsu 3?
>>321520080
3D is easier than good pixel art. How many indie games have good pixel art?
>>321520413
No, it takes more effort to make 3D look adequate than 2D.
It takes a shit ton more effort to make 2D look GOOD than 3D.
>>321520413
Shit 2d is easier to make than shit 3d
Good 2d is harder to make than good 3d
>>321520080
Easier, but more expensive none the less.
Also indie games aren't 3d because they cash in on the "it looks 8 bit I'm so NERDY ecksDEE" faggots.
>Legend of Mana
>>321520492
how man indie games have good 3d visuals?
I want to fug Sierra.
>>321520568
Nah, it's because good 3D takes a ton of cash.
Indie + 3D is an instand turn down in most cases.
Have you not played Vanillaware's games OP?
>>321520080
It is easier. Way easier. Problem is it's just too expensive. 2D is dirt cheap, but difficult and can be time consuming if you don't have the proper staff. Since anyone can into 3D, that tends to be the easier path to take.
>>321520487
>how can these fucks take such a step back from Seiken Densetsu 3?
Even Seiken Densetsu 3 was a step back from secret of mana in some aspects.
I still remember squaredrones bitching that secret of mana would have been such a great game with the snes cd addon.
But then square makes a mana game on cd medium and shit the bed catastrophically.
>>321520642
There should be more than one Vanillaware though.
>>321520659
About half of the game is spent looking at the characters charge up their special skills only to miss the enemies.
then i bought sword of mana thinking it would fix this and the ps2 mana game too... Dreams crushed 4 times
Because half-hassing it and producing shitty pixel graphics and calling paying homage to old games is easier.
God, I fucking hate indie games.
>>321518927
I make an old JRPG style porn game called Overwhored. Long story short my idolized game is Lunar Eternal Blue and the remake of Lunar the Silver Star on PS1. Both had gorgeous sprite work and animated cutscenes. I -WANT- to make a game with high quality sprites and imitate those games. Turns out it's expensive as hell. I might be able to do it myself, but then that's time consuming as hell.
3d stuff is cheaper in comparison; make a high quality 3d model and you can pose it any which way. Sprites are like animation; you have to hand draw each individual movement. It's time consuming and expensive.
Note that 3d isn't easier than really basic 2d stuff. You see a lot of 8-bit indie games because that's not too time consuming to make. SNES era sprites and later are a lot more effort.
>>321520812
Should but it's a niche market these days. People who want gorgeous 2D aren't that prominent so making all that effort for "okay" sales is not for everyone.
>>321520659
>>321520487
>>321520131
You guys might find this difficult to believe but different people have different tastes.
Maybe some people really liked Legend of manna more than the previous games.
Hell there might even be people who liked the first game AKA Final Fantasy Adventure.
The entire series is generally considered great.
Or at least until the PS2 game came out.
And even that game was ok not great but ok.
>>321520651
>>321520568
>>321520636
>easier
>but more expensive
what is that supposed to mean, I really do not understand
>>321518927
I've tried to find someone for my game to make high quality sprites. It's hard.
>>321518927
looks pretty bad
>>321520495
>guy gets btfo
>stops replying
pottery
>>321520942
The startup costs are higher, but the long term costs are lower.
Basically you have to pay way more to get high quality models done but then you pay very little to do stuff with high quality models once you have them.
Sprites are easier to make but require being completely remade for every frame of movement.
>>321520919
the only thing good with LoM is the crafting system and godlike OST. Yoko Shimomura I think...
I'd like to meet whoever likes post snes mana games more, so that I can laugh at them
>>321520942
The software and the power it takes to render high quality models requires powerful equipment, software and hardware wise. Not saying it isn't "LOL FUKIN DAY 1 EXPERT!" once you tackle 3D modeling, it does take work and understand. But compared to 2D... yeah...
>>321518927
Owlboy
Enough said
>>321520919
The problem with LoM is that the world building aspect is a huge time waster.
It feels like a game a suicidal person made for some reason.
Too existentialist and depressive for my taste.
>>321518927
Its hard. And idiots would say that graphics dont matter anyway
>>321520942
>>321521207
The software and the power it takes to render high quality models requires powerful equipment, software and hardware wise.
This, plus you need experienced designers dedicating a fuckton of time to make a quality 3D model before you get to the phase where 3D actually becomes cheaper.
Check out this professional looking graphic.
>>321521420
eh that was w/e. the battle system is what really was downgraded to me
>>321521089
>>321521207
>>321521568
I get what you are trying to say, but overall it still makes no sense
if you're saying something is "easier" it implies it takes less ressources to make - especially time - which means it's less expensive when looking at the development costs
AAA studios have teams consisting of hundreds of employees to make the 3D visuals as "good" (realistic) as possible which made the devolepment costs of video games skyrocket, not including marketing
on the other hand you have games like dragon's crown which were made with a measily budget of 1 million dollar and a standard development time
the reason they dont do 2D anymore is because it's just not "in" nowadays, all the popular genres are 3D
>>321518927
Legend of Mana will always be one of my favourite games. The amount of things you can do is crazy and the soundtrack is amazing.
>>321522625
There's also a matter of appeal, I guess.
If you spend a ton of money on a 2D game it's very unlikely that you'll sell CoD levels of copies, just because that's not what's valued the most on mainstream gaming nowadays.
>>321522625
There's also a kind of "peak" with 2d stuff. There's a limit to what you can do, in a way. 3d just keeps going up.
>>321520642
Not the same as OP's picture. To animate this with sprites would take a long time instead of doing something in some paint program and then deforming them to move a certain way.
>>321522897
exactly
everyone wants the CoDbucks
>>321518927
>Why don't people make games with high quality sprites anymore?
Because it's very expensive and time consuming. People who use sprites are small indie studios that do so because simple sprite graphics are cheap to make.
Shit like what you have there takes months of multiple very skilled artists to make. It used to be done by large-ish professional studios, for games with large budget. Especially in consideration of the increase of labor cost, making something like that would not set you back much less than going for high-fidelity 3D art. In fact, in era of digitalization, photogrammetry and similar wizardry, high-def 3D graphics will cost you LESS than high-def dynamic sprite art.
It goes like this: low-def sprite art is cheaper than 3D, but hi-def sprite art is as expensive or more than 3D. So who ever can afford to spend that money is going to probably spend it on 3D arts instead.
If you want to go 2D today, you generally don't want to use pixel art anyway, there is not much point. You can make something like Valiant Hearts, or Child of Light instead.
>>321518927
>legend of mana
MY SUPREMEST NIGGA
this was my shit back when i was a kid holy fuck. a beatm' up with rpg elements and magic and shit? god damn it man. I'm so dissapointed that indie devs never picked up on spritework like this gorgeous shit
>>321523745
okay taking the nostalgia goggles off though, I acknowledge it had plenty of flaws that have been pointed out. I'd just like to make a game that's legend of mana but well. fixed.
>>321518927
ITT: retards pretending to know about work processes they have never even properly read about.
>>321523573
>Because it's very expensive and time consuming. People who use sprites are small indie studios that do so because simple sprite graphics are cheap to make.
Exactly, not only that but they can skip out on hiring someone if it is a small group, especially good if it is a one man project. It would be incredibly hard to make something as good as professionals that have possibly done sprite work for years and that their main job is to create the art unlike someone who has to do everything.
>>321523964
Care to enlighten us instead of shitposting?
loved the fuck out of legend of mana. 2nd best looking 2-d game on ps1 behind saga frontier 2 (but LoM of waaay better as a game). I love sprites.
I exploited a glitch in LoM that I've never seen online. Where you blacksmith your weapon...if you think it's maxed out...you can bring it down a bit on purpose with certain items then push beyond the max stats with rare items and keep doing it.
>>321518927
i need to know this game
>>321518927
Because it's not a mainstay part of the industry anymore. It's like when people ask "why do all pixel-based indie games look like shit?". Because they're not made by actually trained professionals with years of experience and budget in millions of dollars. But mainly lack of skill, really.
>>321520919
>Hell there might even be people who liked the first game AKA Final Fantasy Adventure
It's literally the only good mana game, and it's not even a mana game.
>>321518927
because it's way more "retro" to puke shit colored squares
also, sprites are mainly used in indie games, where there is no talent
>>321524156
Legend of Mana PS1, fucking amazing game though expect to fuck up the first playthrough without a guide.
>>321520642
Vanillaware's style is basically how 2D should have evolved to, except with better animation. There's no need for sprites really when we can have directly animated pieces of artwork these days.
>>321524485I personally don't like computer paintings and like pixel art over it.
>>321524564
well you need jesus
>>321524564
Do you really, though?
Vanillaware is a good example of non-pixel stuff done right, I can admit, but something about it bugs me. The characters just don't seem to blend with the environment and the animations are so detailed that the transitions between the animations look awkward to me.
>>321524656
They just don't look good compared to hand done paintings. Only digital paintings I like are the ones that mask that they were done on the computer as well as they can. Otherwise they always have a signature style of being done on the computer which is just off putting to me.
>>321518927
Making sprites is fucking hard.
Making 3D look like 2D is pretty hard too, but can look fucking amazing.
Look that the GuiltyGearXrd Models, they are all 3D and made to look like 2D.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhGjCzxJV3E
If you are interested in that, its fucking amazing.
Blazblue still uses sprites afaik, but I think they make 3d models and sprites based on that or something like that.
>>321520080
some of them are, you just dont see one axis.
Were getting to a point where people dont want to play a game unless it has modern super graphics.
>>321524485
>Vanillaware's style is basically how 2D should have evolved to, except with better animation
Dunno man, This kind of thing always feels a bit off to me, lifeless in a weird manner.
>>321524731
Not digitized. More like this.
>>321518927
Sprites are expensive and take long to create.
3D Models are cheap and fast so the devs can waste more time on other garbage we don't want.
It's not about artstyle anymore.
>>321524829
I really think it's the animation transitions as I mentioned above. I still say it's totally based on opinion, and Vanillaware has the right idea, but this looks a lot smoother to me, it's not just like an "animation on, animation off" switch, the best way I can explain it.
https://youtu.be/4Q4ZnilP5qg?t=1541
>>321524879
I worded that wrong. Sprites themselves aren't expensive but since they need a lot of time and effort, it's often cheaper to just make some shitty 3D models
>>321524764
> Making 3D look like 2D is pretty hard too, but can look fucking amazing.
>tfw no one is even attempting to repeat Ghost Trick approach.
>>321524879
>Sprites are expensive and take long to create.
Not really. It's mainly because sprite artists don't really exist anymore and if you want a game with actual 2D art look you need to find someone just as talented to draw and animated. 3D is simply easier because any modeler can do it, although the way models have shot up in polygon count these days it's also become a huge time sink to make them.
>>321524998
Hm, Ori does feel a lot more natural.
I'd say the main difference is that in sprite-based games it feels like the character is more of a part of his own world.
>>321524485
>what 2d should have evolved to
>morphing vectorized images
flash?
>>321525063
>tfw there will be no more games with this type of art because it's "too hard"
![latest[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/lFQyttm.jpg "latest[1].jpg")
>>321525063
Well, probably expensive as fuck.
>>321525063
>what is the last Guilty Gear
Yeah, I agree the modern form of those gorgeous pixel art from the SNES-era are simply scanned-in artwork.
>>321518927
FUCK YOU I didn't wanna enjoy games anymore asshole now I have to replay this
>>321524731
almost bought this game on several occasions. but...I tell myself why when I can just replay Baldur's gate 1 and 2.
>>321524034
In a nutshell: how much time it takes, and how much money you have to burn to make it happen is tied much more to other things than just being 2d or 3d. Usually it boils down to artist experience and project-specific demands, which is influenced also by how well the project management knows beforehand what the project requisites are. Only experience of having done same shit before makes it flow predictably.
>>321520594
I'd say Overgrowth looks real good.
Because you get limited severely in gameplay possibilities and controllable camera usually ceases to exist (which in itself is a very important gameplay element). Problem is that 3d artists usually focus on quality and technology, forgetting about style, while 2d focuses on style because welp there are very little technologies involved in the process of making 2d art, animating it and bringing it "live". so all you can do is hone your art skill and style really. Best choice is 3d with a though-out style, that usually ages quite decently, but not many people did that and honestly I can thing only of cartoon-ish things now (wind waker, killer 7, XIII, etc). While technologies are very important, if all you do is rely on them then you are doomed to be objectively surpassed just in a few years when technologies advance.
>>321518927
Shit costs money.
There's still alphadream though
>>321520594
>how man indie games have good 3d visuals?
Quite a few these days. On the top of my head: Cradle, SOMA, Vanishing of Ethan Carter, Dear Esther, Woolfe, Submerged, Brothers, Never Alone, Thalamus, Naissance, Hard Reset, and the list could go on and on and on.
Some of these games look gorgeous, even. Cradle, SOMA and Vanishing of Ethan Carter are in fact EXCEPTIONALLY good looking games.
You people really have no actual awareness of what is going on in the industry, do you? Pick releated - pretty much the embodiment of the modern indie scene.
>>321520594
The one I'm making has the best my meager budget can afford
Thank you based slav magic
>>321518927
it's hard
it's expensive
talent is rare
Because the word "high quality" doesn't sell when you have retards parroting the word "subjective" all over the place.
>>321525584
It's really not like BG games. Lack of any real media coverage out there gets in the way of proper feeling for it.
>>321525150
>It's mainly because sprite artists don't really exist anymore
No, there's plenty and many are looking for work. There's entire communities dedicated to the medium.
But its not cheap. Good artists aren't going to work for peanuts
>>321526652
3D indie games always suffer heavily on some front, like length, quality of gameplay or the amount of features, though.
>>321526771
Forgot my pic
>>321519193
>but that big monster and the background have no reason to not be simply painted
Dithering has a distinct visual quality to it. It's not just a lesser version of digital painting. Maybe I'm just autistic, but I find it appealing.
>>321526652
because people still think indie games are stuck in "shitty pixel platformer" period, even if they don't always end up as good games, graphical fidelity for indies is definitely already up there.
>>321518927
maybe you should try playing DFO
>>321527239
I'm tempted to agree, but that does not mean they aren't happening. And indie games IN GENERAL tend to suffer on some front, frequently lenght or gameplay complexity, it's not an issue exclusive to the 3D ones.
>>321527315
I actually think most people here have terrible, almost non awareness of what is really happening in the industry, period.
>>321527023
well can you describe it then? because I get it's a pixelized crpg, but little beyond that.
>>321525640
>how much time it takes, and how much money you have to burn to make it happen is tied much more to other things than just being 2d or 3d
WOW ARE YOU SERIOUS HOLY SHIT GUYS DID YOU KNOW THAT OTHER PARTS OF THE PROJECT EXIST BESIDES THE GRAPHICS HOLY FUCK MIND BLOWN SENPAI
>>321518927
>Why don't people make games with high quality sprites anymore?
It takes time, effort, and money.
>>321527807
>It takes time, effort, and money.
>not being NEET
>not having infinite amount of autismbucks
>>321527964
Still needs effort, though.
>>321527306
Is dithering supposed to be blurred or should you be able to see the dots?
cuz laziness
>>321524998
>>321525241
Ori used 3D models and animation though, rendered to sprites.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1021791/Animation-Bootcamp-The-Animation-Process
>>321525063
Ghost Trick could barely pull it and it was thanks to the shit resolution of the DS
How you supposed to make pixel art?
Is there a specific program/setting on photoshop?
Ive always used MS Paint, but i feel like im doing it wrong.
>>321533552
Just zoom way in. Youre literally coloring pixels, you need to zoom so far in that you see each one individually. Works in pretty much every illustration programme, theres no real trick to it..
>>321533552
Google tutorials. You don't need much software, it's just some techniques and palette choices. And skill, obviously.
>>321533552
There are dedicated programs for it, like GraphicsGale.
>>321534336
why not do it DKC's way
>>321520080
please make more vids
>>321528138
Being able to see the delicious pixel dithering is part of the appeal.
In all seriousness, I think it gives graphics nice hardness. If the pixels are blurred, it more lazy. Compare mid-90s eroge to early 2000s. The pixel graphics were excellent, then companies switched to awkward low-res CGs. But this is normal when new technology becomes available.
>>321520080
Have you seen shovel-ware indie trash? if its not bought 3D assets from the unity store its bought clipart from stockimages.com
>>321533552
You really only need paint. And some basic animation program if you plan on making an animation.
Back when I worked on sprites I used Paintshop Pro because it had nice zoom and easy palette swapping.
If you start working on more complicated stuff like dragon in the OP, you want either program where you can work with layers, or create each part of the body individually.
>>321520568
3D is more expensive and it's harder to make low budget 3d game look good. It's only recently that good looking minimalistic 3d designs that are cheap and fast to create emerged. (Reflex is a good example)
>>321518927
Loved that game.
>>321520594
Reflex, Armello, Endless Legend. First things that came to mind.
>what is ori
>>321524829
The thing with Vanillaware is that they use extensive tweening, like the new Rayman games. This is why it feels off compared to individually animated graphics.
If you want properly animated art pieces, look at Skull Girls. But that shit takes fucking forever to make, and isn't really feasible when you're working on tons of assets.
>>321527293
>>321526771
Nice one. Have any project pages? What is the slav magic?
>>321520812
Vanillaware is able to do what it does, because they have that one prodigy artist doing most of the graphics.
>>321524862
Shadowrun has some of the ugliest character portraits ever tho. There was no likeable portrait to select for my MC.
>>321535418
any example?
Spoilered of course
>>321536253
Game is walkerman its basically the witches meets Ace attorney
Should have it out by march
Slav magic is laying eastern Europeans to do amazing stuff for cheap
>>321537094
I am on my phone
Scalemail.com
>>321536851
Alright. This is from Toushin Toshi 2, released at the end of 1994.
>>321537831
That was full-screen CG, and being a dungeon crawler TT2 didn't have much sprite-work going on.
Here's a screen from Kichikuou Rance(1996), which had amazing sprites for all of the units in the game. Sengoku Rance actually used similar style, just more refined and slightly larger.
>>321538119
Here's CG from Pastel Chime, from 1998. The actual dungeon UI is pretty horrible, and really worth looking at.
I just believe art like this lacked nice hardness that sprite graphics had. Though while Alicesoft did have nice sprites, it's not like everything from them was a winner.
>>321536127
not sprite art
>>321538438
For example, here's a CG from Rance 4.1, which had art direction all over the place.
Because established studios don't typically work in retro 2D sprites.
Only indie devs do and they do because they have no talent. Hence the shitty 8bit sprites- no talent, no effort.
>>321518927
Because there are too many idiots who think a game is bad solely because it's 2D, regardless of how well it's done.
>>321538573
4.X games did have really nice event sprites, though. The brown part is transparent in the game, so it blended in nicely.
>>321518927
Is that dragon a boy or grill?
>>321518927
CG is easier/faster/cheaper to do nowadays.
>>321537094
Ahaha I thought you used some software made in slavlands that I didn't know of. Outsourcing will kill western economies, the crazy taxation and raising the minimum wage is unbearable especially for small companies.
>>321538831
It's a dragon, what does it matter?
>You'll never experience classic 2D JRPG's for the first time again
>Sprite art and animations on par with Metal Slug, Donkey Kong Country, or Megaman will never exist again
>Single pixel wide legs is the new "RETRO" art style
>"Guys you don't understand how much time and effort it takes"
>All of these games were made 20 some years ago by teams of like 10 people developing on shitty old hardware working in programs like MS Paint
There exist a myriad of devices and software today to make creating pixel art simple as shit, but most artists are just lazy and unappreciative.
>>321524485
>Except with better animation
Then 3D is cheaper. You guys really don't know what you are talking about.
>>321539394
Do you know how much it cost to make Metal Slug?
Do you realize Metal Slug is 40 minutes long?
God you are a retard.
>>321520594
Hand of Fate looks alright though it limits itself and the models can look janky.
>>321524485
>no crusader
>>321539394
>tfw the Tales series has a metric fuckton of beautiful sprite-based 2D games, none of which ever saw the light of day in the West
I mean, look at this shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdaWWEo9Hzc
it's fucking orgasmic
>>321524485
They look fine with still images, but there's too much stretching and skewing going on in their work.
Not sure what you mean by not needing sprites, unless you're suggesting a switch to vector style graphics.
>>321520080
Bad pixel art is not good pixel art
![latest[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/veAvpV2.gif "latest[1].gif")
>>321518927
Breath of Fire 3+4 look so fucking awesome
>>321525063
>low poly models rendered in low resolution
Why do retards always bring this up in sprite threads
>>321518927
Maplestory still uses 2D sprites.
>>321537831
Why does this kind of art get me so hard
I don't give a single shit about CGs in modern porn-games but those old pixel-y ones get me much harder so I guess that proves your point
Why is she so perfect?
>>321539074
>What retro games actually looked like
what? no, not on those screens back then
is this a troll image?
>>321539175
to my dick
>>321520889
>luner
>gorgeous sprite work.
>>321539828
More like
>Using leaper.
>>321539175
Don't dragons have sex?
>>321539920
Blame symphoniafags, they don't like the 2D games.
>>321520080
Good indie games are.
>>321542506
>Good
>Characters look like Pop! figurines.
>>321542674
Fuck off retard
>>321542506
I would fuck holly.
>>321539920
Namco should translate ToDDC and ToD2 for PS4 (ps2) emulation. How much would that cost them?
>that Chloe hat.
>>321542506
I was a bit disappointed by this game, but it's alright.
The characters do look a bit retarded. I wish they were more on the weeb side.
>>321543576
Well, that'd get me to buy a PS4.
