What are good examples of versus games where all players are on completely equal ground? Negligible or no character differences, everyone has the same tools and access to them, skill is the only determining factor in success.
Pong
>>321035870
warcraft 3
Rocket league
>>321035870
Rocket arena
Rocket League(except for teammates)
>>321035870
rainbow six 3 multiplayer
Supersonic Acrobatic Rocketpowered Battlecars
counter strike
unreal tournament
quake
>>321036298
>Counter Strike
>asymmetrical maps
>AK vs. M4
Anon, I...
>>321035870
All black ops games
>>321036298
>counter strike
But Terrorists and CTs have different objectives and weapons, for one
>>321036098
This, although each car does have minor differences like turn speed and hitboxes.
>>321035870
Samurai Gunn and Towerfall Ascension are both much better games than Nidhogg.
>>321035870
Any fightan game with mirror matchup
Any RTS game with mirror matchup and symmetrical map
Most arena shooters
most fighting games
>>321036362
>>321036424
But in real counterstrike both teams get a turn at each side so that isn't really an issue.
>>321036098
Outside of random spawn locations.
>>321036569
But one team is already playing the harder side and the other team is leaning their play styles meaning they'll have an advantage next round
Nidhogg is so fucking cool but it looks best to play with friends
>>321036569
Well that's like saying that chess is balanced because the other player is white next turn
What about mirror matches, or are we strictly talking games with no 'character' select?
There's always Toribash I suppose.
>>321035978
Gang Beasts
smash bros
fox only
no items
final destination
>>321036737
>leaning their play styles
What retards play T and CT the same way
Players are always on completely equal ground in fighting games. The fact that there are character differences is irrelevant. Any fighting game match started the minute the game came out and that includes the character select.
>>321036814
Well a single game of CS has both teams play a turn on each side while the winner in chess just has to win one game with no switchies
Fighting games
Quake
>>321036824
Mirror matches qualify basically any fighting game if you play them that way specifically, so moreso thinking about games that were built with the idea of players being equally equipped and having only skill to determine the winner. If character select is a feature then they'd have to be cosmetic or extremely small differences that couldn't possibly affect the outcome.
Mario party
>>321037042
>"Negligible or no character differences"
>The fact that there are character differences is irrelevant
>>321037042
But someone has to pick first. That's nowhere near equal ground.
>>321037042
This thought violates having access to the same tools as each other (per match).
>>321037132
>a game about rolling dice
>"skill is the only determining factor in success"
>>321037092
In Quake, starting locations can give you disadvantage.
>>321037067
Aren't competitive matches of most game played as a Best Of series?
>>321037269
Only ones where you can argue one player had some sort of advantage (like playing as T on a T-sided map)
>>321037158
You're looking for games where players are on completely equal ground. Character differences don't put players on unequal ground.
>>321037204
Online play and tournaments have blind pick.
>>321037214
Every player has access to the same tools. Knowing what tools you need and what tools you don't need is a skill in itself. The match starts before either player has picked a character.
Rock Paper Scissors the only that comes to mind at the time.
There really is no truly equal game.
>>321037619
What about getting dubs? Unlimited number of players, everyone can win at some point, it's RNG but the base game is 100% fair
>mods
Oh wait
>>321037479
Chess is not a game where players are completely equal ground.
The player who goes first either has an advantage or disadvantage.
Imagine that before playing the game both players pick a number (secretly from the other). If both numbers are even or odd, player A is white, otherwise player B is white.
This scheme does not turn chess into a game where players are completely equal ground - there is element of randomness and element of mind games deciding who goes first, but the nature of the game does not change.
This is exactly same thing as "blind pick" for fighters. It doesn't put players on equal ground.
>>321037214
both players have access to the same characters.
>>321037828
But picking first opens you up to counterpick.
>>321036176
Where all the tools are essentially useless, so every match ends up in a deathmatch.
>>321037861
hover over the other player's cursor and pick the same as them if you must.
>>321037798
>The player who goes first either has an advantage or disadvantage.
Which means that the player who goes second either has an advantage or a disadvantage
Those two statements sure do sound equal
league of legends ;-)
>>321037479
>>321037828
This kind of thinking basically any versus game, I should have been specific in saying that any skill used against another player should be able to be used at any time during the exchange, (at any point in the game against the opponent(s)) which in this case would invalidate a character selection period since mid-match this feature isn't represented.
>>321038014
They are both the same thing, and they are both not the same thing as "players are on equal ground".
>>321038098
>make a decision that leads to other options
>other player can make the same decision but decides differently
>they are unequal!
What?
So what if there's a move that both players can do that drains a certain amount of HP and one player has enough HP to not die from it but he other doesn't, as he's been losing so far? Same situation.
>>321035870
Halo
>>321037798
The difference being that character advantage in chess can not be mitigated in the same manner that it can be in a fighting game. No character select is a random factor (unless a player uses the random button) and any player can and should be aware of what characters their opponents play, what play styles they have, who they're good against, and who they're bad against. All of this culminating in an informed decision about who to pick. This make the character select itself a game and not drawing straws like the parallel you attempted to draw is.
Plus, in chess you can have both players play on both sides to mitigate this factor too.
>>321038098
You can't ignore the existence of the metagame. If a player chooses to gimp themself then that's their fault. If you sacrifice your queen in chess you've limited your tools to gain a board control advantage you haven't made the game unfair. If say in Nidhogg you throw your sword you've limited your tools by quite a lot. That doesn't make that game unfair either. Therefor you can't exclude character selection from relevant skills in a game just because players limit their tools during it.
>>321037953
Both players will sit there waiting for the other to pick.
>>321038639
Sounds like they're both in the same situation then.
These games usually have timers on character selection.
>>321038758
Once the other picks the other one is in a different situation, because he has knowledge of the other player's pick and the other player can't counterpick anymore
>>321039025
So games with timers during character select are totally equal, then.
>>321039084
How exactly? What is your logic?
super mario multiplayer vs
>>321038559
>>321038284
I feel as though this train of thought will go on to validate any type versus game in existence and destroy the idea an equal ground exists similar to what >>321037619 said
In that case, I won't refute it. But I will research if people have developed high level and well thought out strategies for musical chairs or 52 pickup, because it would be more interesting.
>>321039084
No, your choices with a timer are:
Pick first and get countered, or
Wait until you both get forced randoms and hope for the best.
>>321039084
see
>>321037953
If you're utterly not confident in your ability to outplay a counter, pick the same character
if you're worse with that character, you're outskilled, purely.
If the other player hovers over a counter, you can hover over a counter to THAT counter, etc.
>>321039220
If you can pick at the last second better than the other player, you have outskilled them.
>>321039213
I don't see why a fighting game where both players play the same character wouldn't be considered equal.
>people are still arguing about fighting games when "no character differences" was stated in the OP
Jedi Outcast/Jedi Academy
>>321039423
>I don't see why a fighting game where both players play the same character wouldn't be considered equal.
Well that train of thought of his was basically:
>if the other player makes a different decision than the other anywhere in the match, they are already on unequal ground
>>321039551
At the point where players are making decisions, skill is involved.
>>321035870
Halo 2 and pre patch 3
League of Legends
>>321039213
The only thing that can invalidate equal ground is something that neither player can effect. Random chance for instance. Nothing I have said "destroys" the idea that equal ground can exist. What I have said also can't go on to "validate" or "invalidate" any or every game. Competitive poker has a large amount of skill involved in it, but it still has a random factor and not all information is conveyed to any player. This doesn't invalidate it, otherwise people wouldn't play it competitively, it just means that the ground is uneven in a different way each time players sit down to play. But that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is games where players are on even ground.
>>321039630
This. As I said before, in any competitive game every match started the minute the game came out. Every player has access to the same tools and can make the same decisions, even if some of those decisions include picking what tools you will have access to. If you ignore metagaming when trying to find an "equal ground game" then you're looking at games in a manner that doesn't exist in real life.
>>321039779
What did they do to 3 that made it uneven?
>>321039423
>I don't see why a fighting game where both players play the same character wouldn't be considered equal.
I said that I could see how it's possible to view games with these parameters as equal, though it's not what I was looking for and too late to change the description, and even if I could I'd be more than willing to bet those new rules would be broken open into accepting most any game
So now I really am more interested in high level strategies for games at the level of mario party/pokemon stadium since potentially equal and unequal grounding are malleable concepts, it seems.
>>321040240
I think you just expected your question to be harder than it actually was.
>>321040064
>Nothing I have said "destroys" the idea that equal ground can exist.
Can you give me an example of one then?
>>321040431
I was tired of playing Nidhogg and wanted more suggestions. I don't know how it mutated into what it did. I almost want to argue that the best meta game is to put down the controller and walk right out of your friend's house which is victory on a real life scale.
>>321040592
>>321040240
>Only games that have little room for metagaming are good games!
>Random chance is the same thing as metagaming
>Taking games seriously is for losers
>Waah, philosophy and game theory is complicated and logic goes against my pre-established beliefs! Therefor this conversation is stupid
Duck Game and similar
>>321036456
The fuck am I looking at here?
>>321040923
>>Only games that have little room for metagaming are good games!
Not once has quality or concepts of good or bad entered the discussion. It's always been about equal ground regardless of quality.
>Random chance is the same thing as metagaming
>Taking games seriously is for losers
Things I never said
>Waah, philosophy and game theory is complicated and logic goes against my pre-established beliefs! Therefor this conversation is stupid
More things I never said and also, lots of assumptions. I'm not afraid to say I don't know much about competitive gaming but I don't want to learn about it from someone like you.
>>321038559
>drawing straws
But my example is not drawing straws. Both players make an informed decision to pick the number. It is exactly the same situation as you're describing, the only difference is in my example the pick is not related to chess-related skills, but it's still a proper decision, and situation is the same. Yours is definitely closer to both players being on same footing, but neither completely are.
>>321035870
>Negligible or no character differences, everyone has the same tools and access to them, skill is the only determining factor in success.
This actually makes your request super interesting because as soon as asymmetrical shit was introduced into multiplayer video games in the 90s vidya devs cannot stop fapping to it.
Now, do you specifically desire two players competing simultaneously? If that's not important pretty much any game with score fits your criteria such as Tetris or arcade games in general.
If playing at the same time is a must yet turn based is acceptable you'd enjoy many digital ports of board games. Unlike video game devs many board game devs prefer all decisions to happen within the game.
Lots of high quality board games are available to play digitally for free at
http://en.boardgamearena.com/
You might want to try Prismata which was born digitally but has the heart of a board game. Kind of hard to explain but a quick rundown can be found here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMxI3Hbd-Ko
Still in development but I'm pretty excited.
And finally if what you desire is something real time then I'd recommend Bomberman, Duck Game and Spelunky's death match mode. Not necessarily super high skilled games but lots of fun and what you're asking for
>>321040064
Basic classes, starting weapon could be chosen from either ar or br
>>321041654
>Prismata
>Random draw
>Players taking turns
Why even bother posting, anon?
>>321041654
Yeah this is really nice. What I had in mind were 2 (or possibly more) players simultaneously since it's the kind I know the best, but did not really consider turn based games or traditional games. Chess was on my mind though even that's hotly debated, though it's safe to say it's that kind of game if we're talking turn based that I'd also have in mind.
A friend of mine has a shitton of IRL board games so I didn't even consider playing recreations online, that's pretty interesting.
Bomberman sounds like great example, completely slipped my mind mainly because intense play of that game in certain modes/versions scared me a lot.
>>321041254
You started being a dismissive asshole as soon as you ran out of refutations. The competitive world doesn't need more people like you in it.
>>321040064
Well ain't you a snotty cunt about your "philosophical ground breaking approach to sucking dick in a competitive medium
>>321035870
>Negligible or no character differences, everyone has the same tools and access to them, skill is the only determining factor in success.
Mirror matches of any sort in any competitive game.
Now fuck off.
>>321041830
>Random draw
What's wrong with this when neither player has a deck? The thing that's randomized is the pool of units both players choose from. The pool the players draw from is THE SAME but what the pool is composed of varies from game to game so you can't just use the same strat every game among other things. It's like if there were no races in Starcraft and at the start of the game both players were the same race that had a pool of units/buildings chosen at random then had to figure out the appropriate build order and strat while countering what the other player was doing.
>>321042013
Try sending the site to your friend and see if there's any games he'd want to play with you online or better yet just play board games with him. In many ways board games are stripped down turn based video games so playing both will help you appreciate aspects of both.
also try samurai gunn
>anon creates a thread just looking for games with a similar setup to niddhog
>births an autistic debate where other anons try to defend their genre of choice even though it wasn't under attack, the question was just about finding an all thing equal non coop game with no character differences
Lethal League
>>321042706
In a random draw scenario both players are ultimately without the same tools, even though they have access to the same pool. Therefor its not an "equal ground" scenario even if it's fair. That's also why the comparison you drew doesn't work.
>>321043456
>In a random draw scenario both players are ultimately without the same tools, even though they have access to the same pool. Therefor its not an "equal ground" scenario even if it's fair.
are you saying that it's not equal ground because two players with the exact same tool box made different decisions which caused them to use different tools?
>>321041739
>Basic classes, starting weapon could be chosen from either ar or br
no?
>>321043694
Random draw means that you will tools in a way that is out of your direct control. It would be like saying that every player in Candyland is on even footing even though the match outcome is decided from before the game began.
>>321043873
I think he means Reach or Online maybe?
>>321042706
>The thing that's randomized is the pool of units both players choose from. The pool the players draw from is THE SAME but what the pool is composed of varies from game to game
You still have one player picking first so there's no equal ground.
>>321035870
Toribashi
Magicka!
>>321044025
>Random draw means that you will tools in a way that is out of your direct control
This doesn't exist in Prismata so I don't really understand why you're bringing it up. There are no decks. Players never draw cards. Both players have the same starting units on the board then simply choose which ones they want to buy each turn and those that they buy are immediately deployed on their side of the board.
>>321044073
Interestingly enough 5% is the player advantage based on turn order for both first and second player. There's one unit that can be put in the pool that increases the first player's win rate by 5% on average and a different unit that increases the second player's win rate by 5%. However at higher elos the 5% increase tapers down.
Both of those units got changed recently so I'm not sure how different the stats are
http://blog.prismata.net/2015/12/01/prismata-december-balance-patch-part-1/
>>321035870
NO ITEMS
FOX ONLY
FINAL DESTINATION
>>321045675
Oh. I assumed that it had random draw because this anon >>321041830 said that it had random draw and you said that the game was fine and even without remarking on if it had random draw.
I also think it would be reasonable to say that % higher winrate isn't the same thing as % of advantage.
>>321045854
Funny story. Smash is an uneven game because port priority is a thing because it's shittily designed (or programmed depending on if you think port priority was intentional)
On the concept of character select being part of the metagame, compare players like Infiltration to players like Nuckledu.
Inf is an amazing Akuma player but he also plays like half the cast, he's gained a reputation as a wildcard who will pull out a completely random counterpick so players need to be prepared for that element of his play, you're not playing against Akuma, you're playing against Infiltration.
Meanwhile you got someone like Nuckledu, someone who plays Guile and only Guile and has the knowledge and skill to help him cover Guile's weaknesses, this man will make Guile look like he has no flaws.
Is Nuckledu on an uneven footing because he /chose/ to learn no sub characters?
>>321046697
>Nuckledu, someone who plays Guile and only Guile
Just get out of prison anon?
>>321046806
Oh yeah he plays Decapre now, I always forget because fuck Decapre.
Dieminion then, whatever.
Towerfall
>>321046895
That's reasonable.
Dieminion is bae too. Him and Tokido are the only players who I can think of who don't really use a pocket at all in IV. I think the cast is just too large that most players can't take it it feels like. I never would have expected to see SnakeEyez pick anyone else up but here we are.
Quack
fighting games in mirror matchups using non-RNG characters. that's all that can come off the top of my head and even then you could say that one player starting the game facing a different direction is a difference, since it actually affects the inputs you need to make. If a fighting game was made for all characters to face the same direction on their own client then it'd be 100% completely inarguably equal as long as it's played on LAN.
Arena shooters like Quake & UT
>>321048764
spawn differences and machine gun has RNG in quake
>>321038309
I'll agree with this but only up until 3
also, if gears of war removed the huge ridiculous amounts of RNG on the weapons and then modified the maps to be the exact same on both sides (only slight modifications would be needed) then this would also be a completely equal game assuming it's played on LAN (fuck gears of war netcode).
If StarCraft II were modified to always have pre-determined spawn points and only one race, this too could be considered one of those games.
There's actually very few games which put everyone on completely equal footing and that leave winning up to player skill alone.
>>321036456
That's hot.
