HEY GUYS I HAVE AN IDEA FOR A CHARACTER:
How about we make him one of the fastest characters in the game?
Oh and he has a sword for extended range
We can't have a sword that doesn't have huge all around hit boxes now can we?
Kill moves? Only the strongest in the game!
It is mandatory that at least one of them has insane reach and can kill a heavy at about 70%!
Don't worry about any lag time, he can use them at any time he's ready!
And what is a swordsman without a long range attack? He has to have one of those!
Oh and he can make that attack a kill move as well!
But he has to have at least some weaknesses, right? Fine, his recovery will only be mediocre!
But we will have to give him a spiking move that is pretty much easier to use than almost everyone's else's to make up for it!
Combos? Can't forget those! How about one where he can down throw into one of his "limit moves"!
Oh and to make sure he is ready, lets give him almost no end lag on most of his attacks!
Yup Perfect fucking character!!
>>320650651
You have materially described Link.
Git gud
>>320650651
>>320650651
lol get gud scrub
>>320650651
he has little mac tier recovery if you can't deal with that then you should just stop playing already and kill yourself
>>320650651
>>320650651
I really hope you aren't bitching about Cloud being too good.
Hey guys, let's make a character that's dead if you throw him off the ledge, so everything else has to be very strong!
Stop being a fucking scrub, OP
>>320650869
What are you talking about? Link is slow. He has huge lag on many of his attacks. Literally none of his moves kill as early as that stupid whirlwind or have such range. etc.
>>320651037
His recovery is comparable to Ike's besides the ability to charge forward.
>>320650651
Use your shield.
Congratulations, you shut down all of his options except for his piss poor throws, which can't combo into anything that kills once you're 30+%
>>320651269
he doesn't ledge snap so you can just whack him when he overshoots or intercept him when the goes low. Its just as easy to deal with as little mac.
>>320650651
Cloud has terrible endlag.
Cloud has the second worst recovery in the game.
Cloud is a mediocre character that excels in damage and range, but any competent player can exploit his predictable offense, laggy moves, reliance on Limit, shitty grab, and terrible recovery.
Git Gud
>>320652053
>second worst recovery in the game
limit broken up special says otherwise, also dr mario says hi
>>320651806
M2K just found a ledgesnap with Cloud today
>>320652459
The limit recovery is great yes, but situational and requires you to give up the lion's share of your kill moves. Recharging limit in a 1v1 situation against a competent player can be a challenge. Recovery without limit can't even ledge snap during the animation, it's more punishable than Doc's, but I will admit that Doc's pure range is worse.
>>320652459
you either waste your limit or have a crap recovery, a win-win for the opponent, and you're incredibly easily edgeguarded
You wanted Melee Marth. Now you have him.
>>320650651
Did you also complain at Little Mac at release?
>>320650651
>good down tilt
>good up air
>limit side B is good
Only redeemable features. Meanwhile..
>no grab combos
>awful recovery
>no reliable kill moves
Bottom tier
>>320654048
Expect Cloud to be nerfed, just like what happened to Mac on the first few updates.
>>320650651
I KNOW RIGHT???? FUCKING NON-INDIE ANIMU SWORDSMANS
>>320650651
people are saying he's comparable to Little Mac but I've seen his Limit Up+B save him in numerous matches, you can even charge mid-air and get it before you fall
Finishing Touch is also a guaranteed kill at pretty low percent, everyone I saw online just camps charging and then whacks you 3 times into finishing touch.
>>320654501
Stop being fucking trash.
>>320654442
Cross up back air is great for killing and mix ups than people expecting a RAR b air or a F-smash for any limit breaks
>>320651047
>not "warning! Contains High levels of Nigga"
>>320654442
To be fair he can combo with down throw pretty hard from 0-20%. Any other point is completely valid, it's like Roy all over again. People hyping him up saying he's OP but gets no tournament play at all.
Cloud is great for 2v2 For Glory Matches, but there's no way I'd use him 1v1 vs someone who's actually good at edge gaurding.
>>320650651
Are you retarded? Cloud isn't even good.
Pac-Main here
For whatever reason, anime swordsmen seem to be my kryptonite. Sure, I have the projectile advantage, but I can never kill any of them because getting up close is impossible due to their large hitboxes.
Any advice?
Cloud seems pretty well balanced to me. His up air, up tilt, and down tilt are all godlike, but the rest of his normals are pretty iffy and his recovery game is complete trash. He also can't do shit to you at high percentages because you can block punish everything he does and his grabs aren't at all scary.
He's really fucking good against people at low percentages though, but seeing how the main flaw with Smash 4 in general is how hard it is for most people to kill the opponent, being able to rack up damage early doesn't mean shit.
>for glory shitters mostly just play super defensive and try to get you to just 60% and then try to bait you into down b
It's nice to throw them off stage to force them to waste their limit break but it sucks that they added that move to attract this shitty boring playstyle. Cloud is a good enough fighter without a 60% killmove.
>>320654624
I was stating a fact idiot, not saying he's good or even OP.
Within a month or so of release, the first few updates nerfed the fuck out of Mac of all characters because scrubs were getting rekt by his KO punch. Shit, there's still occasional complaints about Mac's power. Expect history to repeat itself whether you like it or not.
>mfw Mario Kart will never be as cancerous as Smashfags
>>320654915
So because the balancing team was trash around release they're going to repeat their mistake? People complained that Roy was OP on release yet they didn't nerf him because he wasn't all that good. No way they're nerfing Cloud in his current state.
>>320650651
>Cloud is OP!
You are fucking bad at this game, son.
>>320650651
You fucking suck. Bait his limits or knock him off stage and make him waste it. If you get Cloud off stage he's pretty much dead against any decent edge guarding character.
He's powerful but extremely gimpable, like Mac.
>>320654828
I hate the same issue. I have the hardest time against Link. Maybe I should use the key like... ever.
>scrubs can't deal with Charizard's Flare Blitz
>Charizard's Flare Blitz
>Charizard's
>Flare
>Blitz
>mfw it got nerfed
>>320654828
I don't play Pac, but I'd say study players like Zage. I don't know if there are many matches of him vs animus up, but I bet there are a few.
>jab into Finishing Touch
>All this talk that Clouds strengths are made up for with his poor recovery
That is so full of shit. There are plenty of characters with worse recovery that don't have half the things going for him.
Dr. Mario, Little Mac, Ganandorf, Bowser, ROB; just to name a few
>>320655342
i can't deal with it because i'm not used to it, i barely see any charzards online
>>320655342
>mfw people are actually scared of bowser again
feels good
>>320655662
Some people claim that Cloud's recovery is almost equal to Little Mac's but that's just bullshit, they've forgotten just how bad it is.
>>320655662
Not being able to grab the ledge from your Up B is really bad anon. It means people can gimp you easy with no real effort.
>Ganondorf
Yeah he doesn't go that far, but he's heavy as fuck and has by far the biggest grab ledge range, as in he fucking has magnetic hands that will grab the ledge when he's nowhere near it.
>>320652053
>Laggy moves
>Most of them have close to no end lag
????
>>320655342
>Marios who Dthrow into Uptilt
>Rock Smash
>Links who come down with Dair
>Fly
>>320655084
They will if people whine enough. The reason Roy wasn't nerfed is because he was dropped almost immediately, not only in tourneys but by the player base in general. I've seen about 5 since his release date, and on release day he was used by everyone just like Cloud is now.
So honestly I think the only way Cloud can dodge a nerf bullet is if he was dropped just like Roy so the scrubs forget he even exists. As for Roy, I don't think he's OP either, he kills early sure but he's also one of the most predictable characters in the game.
Get fucking good. You may as well stop playing if you're that shit.
>>320655662
>ROB
>worse recovery than Cloud
>>320655342
>mfw fighting charizards
>mfw they use flare blitz
>mfw I jump over them, they miss and fall to their deaths
>>320655662
ROB? really? Bowser's off stage recovery isn't that bad, he just has trouble landing and actually getting up from the ledge.
Ganondorf has a god like ledge snap and can be hard for some characters to punish off stage.
>>320655981
It is really slow and easily punished. Almost any backair can kill him at even medium percents.
>>320654828
Yeah.
Go use Pikachu against the swordsmen, he's their Kryptonite. Pacman is at a severe disadvantage.
If you must though, be aware that you are outranged, out damaged, and your grabgame is worse than theirs.
The only thing you have to work with are your tilts (faster than any of their moves), your projectiles (especially the fire hydrant), and your up-air (fastest useful aerial you got).
Focus on getting in close and baiting them, then tilt away. They all win the midrange game, but you're slightly faster and your tilts will come out before nearly all of their moves. None are safe on shield block, just don't get grabbed.
Your projectiles are not to be used for damage, only for utility and setup. You should only be using the watermelon and the weight, not the key (everyone and their mother can dodge it). You can actually catch the watermelon after you throw it with b, and then you can launch it faster and in any direction with a (if you just let go of it, it hangs there but still does massive knockback and a bunch of damage).
Fire Hydrant is useful as a ground-based gale boomerang. Launch it only to limit their options, not to actually damage them.
Your dash attack's one good property is its complete lack of end-lag. You can immediately perform f-tilt either way, or u-tilt right after.
Good luck, you'll need it.
If you must
>>320656170
He can also stall and take his time getting back, throw out his own aerials and know how to tech.
>>320656170
You do know he can act out of it at any point right? Sure its slow but anyone competent can protect themselves doing it.
>>320655662
>dr. Mario
Because he can hit like a truck, and the doctor uniform makes him heavy
>ROB
Nigga robs recovery is great. Can go under battlefield
>ganondorf
This fuck can also combo 0-50% easily, and at 50% you're just below his optimal kill %
>>320656170
There is zero transition time from up-b to literally any other move.
You're not hitting a recovering Rob who actually knows what he's doing, especially not with b-air.
What works on your retarded friends only works on them because they are slightly more retarded than you.
>>320655662
>>320656170
>Rob's recovery is bad
Jesus Christ, now we know you have NO idea what you're talking about.
He can do anything he wants while he recovers, then proceed to continue to recover - over and over and over again.
It's about as easily punishable as a jumping Rob on stage - which is to say it fucking isn't unless the Rob player is brain dead.
>>320656170
>Rob recovery is easily punished
you ok there mate? I think you might have just had an anneurism
>>320650651
>Caring about balance in Smash Bros
Real talk the range on his downsmash is absurd and so is his ability to punish on approach, meaning they can just charge up limit break and wait for you to make the first move.
>>320656418
Pikachu is trash against Ike, I have such a hard time getting in since his moves are so fast and outranges almost all of Pikachu's moves.
>>320657646
Forgot to mention his Downtilt is stupid good also.
>>320656170
ROBs do have to learn how to get back on stage with proper aerial spacing and feints, but in no way is it bad.
>>320657646
>wait for you to make the first move
every character in the game benefits from this
>>320657729
Quick attack mix ups help, and once 'chu does get in on Ike it's combo city. Ike has to play a near flawless walling game to beat a good pikachu. Ike's jab is big time in the match up, aerials too obviously.
>>320657646
>wait for you to make the first move
Welcome to Smash 4
As for his down smash, I think you can tech it after the first hit. I honestly don't think it is anything special when he has access to moves like down tilt. Down tilt is godlike.
>>320657646
Just let him get his limit while you play it safe or projectile spam him. He will either try and blow it early meaning you can punish if you bait, or save it and essentially lock himself out of specials, or put it to waste on a recovery.
When you use a limit is a big deal for Cloud players. Getting it early doesn't mean shit, it's almost better that way for first stock as long as you aren't getting hit by down b.
>>320658524
Did I say Ike? I meant Cloud.
Fuck me, I'm not even high.
>>320658990
Haven't played that match up yet I don't think. I could see Cloud's nair and dtilt being a bitch for pikachu. Well they are for everyone...
>>320657729
Pikachu's matchup is 65-35 against Ike, the hell are you talking about?
Ike's moves all have slow start up other than jab (which competant Pikachu's never get hit by) while Pikachu gets U-Tilt, F-Tilt, and all aerials aside from Down Aerial are faster than anything from Ike. You can pressure him with T-Jolt, while he can't pressure you with anything. You can gimp him, and he can't afford to try to gimp you. You're always safe with Quick Attack to recover, you even get a wall jump for extra - Ike's not, his recovery is so predictable he should always eat a T-Jolt, and potentially a thunder. Ike's Side-B should be safe, except F-Smash from Pikachu outranged it.
The only thing Ike has going for him is range and faster kills. Pikachu's small enough that he can just straight up dodge a lot of Ike's attacks so range is even moot. He does kill at lower percents, but every other advantage from Pikachu more than makes up for it (especially being able to gimp).
>>320658990
dude weed lmao
>>320658990
Pikachu straight fucks offstage Cloud.
Other than that, everyone's getting wrecked by Cloud at the moment (he's not OP, we just don't know his matchups yet) - we just have to wait and see.
>>320650651
Any good competetive matches with him so far?
Not really sure where I should look, but I want to see competent players play him
>>320657646
>wait for you to make the first move
Oh hey, it's the entire meta!
>>320659369
>which competent players never get hit by
No offense, but seeing this shit always bothers me because even the most professional players get hit by things sometimes. There's never a player in any game that doesn't make mistakes. Even pro players fall victim to random wake-up shoryukens sometimes.
>>320655662
>ROB
>Ganondorf
>Dr. Mario
>worse than Cloud
Ganondorf and Dr. Mario both can go diagonally.
ROB can take his time and attack out of his recovery.
The ONLY recovery worse than Cloud is Little Mac's. Cloud has no horizontal recovery and his only potential recovery is Limit-Break u-special.
>>320652053
>damage
Where senpai?
None of his non special non fsmash moves kill at any percentage.
>mfw Link shits on Cloud
>>320650651
He's barely mid-tier, get good anon.
>shittiest special attacks this side of the fucking galaxy
>recovery options extremely limited, only slightly better than Little Mac's
>Extremely slow aerial attacks to the point of useless unless timed immaculately
>limit break takes fucking decades to charge, and the actual limit break attack itself is always underwhelming
I'm not just saying GIT GUD to be an asshole right now. Literally: GIT GUD.
>>320661497
Cloud's down smash is just as effective as Link's.
>>320650651
If you think Cloud is broken, you will have a heart attack once Baeonetta hits the scene.
>>320660848
We're talking optimal play when we talk matchups.
We're not talking you and your cousin in the basement, or M2K when he's got a cold and the opponent with diareah.
Ganon's U-Tilt is not a competitive move. Absolutely no one has any business getting hit by it. Does it still happen 1/100 times? Absolutely. Should we take it into account when considering the matchup? No, we don't, because at optimal play no one will ever get hit by it.
Likewise with Pikachu and Ike's jab. At optimal play, Pikachu has 0 reason to be in range of Ike's Jab combo and actually get hit by it. If he's ever actually in range, an U-Tilt, F-Tilt, or Aerial should have hit Ike first.
"What about Sub-Optimal Play"
Then it's more about the player skill level than it is about the characters. I can land Ganon U-Tilt and fully charged Ike Eruption on scrubs, but that just indicates that they're scrubs, not that they're good and useful mixup tools.
>>320662213
Link's is more useful - you can fucking Tech off the first hit of Cloud's D-Smash.
>>320662113
>shittiest special attacks this side of the fucking galaxy
>not default Palutena
>>320660465
I usually check vgbootcamp for vids, but I don't think they have any good matches for Cloud yet
>>320662614
He's right though
She's from the other side of the galaxy
Shulk > Cloud
>Cloud can combo into finishing touch
>Could can combo into Limit break Cross slash
>>320662780
>but I don't think they have any good matches for Cloud yet
lel, but thanks
>>320662921
Finishing touch is a true combo.
Cross slash is not a true combo.
>>320662972
All of those are shit clouds. One hardly bothers to charge his limit at all. Another actually mashed up-b at one point.
>>320654442
you just described mega man except for awful recovery and no kill moves
>>320662528
I always use down smash to catch rolls, If you use it like that, it can set them up for an easy spjke even at low %s.
>>320663206
Since when the fuck is Mega's Side-B good?
I mean sure, he's better than Cloud, but Crash Bomb good? The fuck?
>Cloud recovery is bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhmo_GIrWv4
This helps the problem somewhat.
>>320655035
Go to the mario kart general
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkk5JvNsID0
But what does it mean?
>>320650651
>mediocre recovery
It's literally Little Mac-tier.
DIG DUG
so like am i the only one w ho doesnt charge his limit break so that he doesnt become dependent on it?
>>320663576
Its worse than Macs without limit charge
At least mac can side b
>>320663693
I usually don't, standard up b is a good combo maker.
>>320662405
You seem knowledgable about the smash bros, how do you rate Mega Man?
>>320663361
Crash Bomb isn't bad. It's great at forcing shields.
Nowhere near as good as Metal Blade or lemons, but still decent.
>>320655997
>zard blitzes into gordoes constantly
>takes 16% from a flare blitz that couldn't do anything to me
>>320655794
That new kill setup though
>calling a character OP less than a week after release
Yeah man. This is just like how everyone called Little Mac OP for the first month of release and now he's #1 on the tier list, right?
>>320650651
You just described Shulk going through all his monados
>>320650651
Cloud confirmed for stronger than Nintendo characters
Samus waifu autists BTFO
>Cloud is literally B-Tier
You just really suck.
>>320664537
>Rate Megaman
Solidly mid-level. B-Tier if I had to.
>Decent smashes, decent tilts, bad specials, great aerials.
U-Smash has no range but is a kill move, D-Smash is slow but is also a kill move. F-Smash has a ton of range (by the point it's charged up enough to kill, you shouldn't be getting hit by it).
U-Tilt is a more mobile version of Luigi's Grounded Up-B with less power and more range - It's good to have for mix-ups. D-Tilt and F-Tilt aren't particularly powerful, but they provide you not only with range but with mobility.
All his specials are bad. Neutral requires setup (for 5% total damage) or the opponent is more likely to catch it than not. Side is shit, its airdogeable by most of the cast, shieldable by everyone, and you can't risk a grab or chasedown less they tag you back with it. Rush isn't shit by himself, just sort of lackluster, but instead of potentially harming opponents like Sonic's Spring, he helps them recover to. Down is all kinds of shit and should never be used competitively.
All his aerials are fantastic. B-Air for knockback, F-Air for damage and setup, both D-Air and U-Air provide vertical range and spikes in their respective direction, and neutral provides some horizontal range.
>Good grab game, solid range game (projectiles for any direction).
Close up, his grabs are pretty solid and provide decent damage - he also has average grab range and speed. He also has the ability to hit in all 4 directions at range while staying safe.
>Slower movement and weak combo game
He's not good at the long chase or rushdowns, and he has very few combos.
>A little floatier but heavier than average.
Gets juggled a little easier, but in turn requires more damage to KO.
>>320663361
Crash Bomb is good for applying shield pressure. Since you can generally keep them away from you by zoning them out, there's not that much of a risk that it'll get stuck on you.
I should know, my best friend mains Mega Man and does fucking great in local tournaments. Crash Bomb shouldn't be underestimated.
>>320656741
Ganon has better recov than cloud thanks to ledge snapping, and with hard reading, easily combos to kill percents.
There's a reason to fear him.
>>320669329
>ganondorf
>reason to fear
lmoa
>>320663372
Out of curiosity though, wouldnt using this be dangerous?
I mean if you miss the ledge, the enemy has more time to react to you, and wouldnt you be more likely be hit or something? I mean its good but, is this like one of those, "dont depend on this" methods or something?
>mfw killed a DDD with finishing touch at 68% earlier
it does feel pretty broken, shame it'll probably get nerfed
>>320650651
Get him in the air or throw him off the stage. His airgame is only kind of okay and his recovery is almost Little Mac tier.
>>320670068
That's why you practice on not messing up.Still its just another option to get back on the stage without getting gimp.
>>320670332
There's still Side-B.
>Fine, his recovery will only be mediocre!
Dead wrong, ive watched 1fow1 and mewtwo king play him for hours, and both pretty much agreed that his recovery alone will drop him from top to mid tier . He's little mac with a sword, but WITH AN EVEN WORSE RECOVERY, as cloud has no lateral recovery, and has to burn his kill options just to make it back on the stage.
>>320670332
Won't happen, people just have to learn how to fight him. Hes little mac all over again, hes a noob stomper. Honestly just throw him off stage, he can't use finishing touch ever, if he has to burn limit to make it back on stage every time.
>tfw you score an offstage kill using Clouds UpB
I wasnt even expecting to get the kill i just felt like doing something stupid.
>>320671893
>his kill options just to make it back on the stage
He can kill fine without the limits they just kill on lower percentage and getting limits back is quite quick as well.
>>320671893
This. I've been killed numberous times because people throw me off the stage and edge guard. His recovery is pure shit
>>320672780
Personally I've had a hell of a time trying to get a kill without limit. Even over 100 percent it feels near impossible to get a kill without limit
>>320650651
His grab game is terrible and without limit break, he has Little Mac-tier recovery.
>tfw i cant tell if im doing good with cloud
all the good players are on WiiU and im still playing on 3ds
>>320673487
His down smash and forward smash make great edge coverage, and his up air, down air, and forward air can hit hard enough to kill even if they're on stage. I KOd a Sonic earlier by down airing as he attack off the edge, no spike he just bounced that hard at 120%.
>>320672780
>He can kill fine without the limits
Except he kind of needs that for most of the A/S rank characters, who are just going to dunk on him, because they have as little lag as he does, and have a much better air/off stage / projectile game as well. I mean ya if you look at him as opposed to the entire cast he could be viewed as op, but all the other S/A/upper B tier characters are in the same boat, where they can crap on lower tier characters. But he just doesn't have what it takes to make it into S/A tier, because he has crystal clear counter play.
>>320673487
Up-air,F-smash,Up-smash and B-air are the easiest moves that kill over 100.
>>320673854
I wouldn't say all the good ones are on the WiiU either its been 3 days.
>>320674060
>I wouldn't say all the good ones are on the WiiU either its been 3 days.
Yea but the more better players of anyone are on WiiU.
Whenever i win i cant tell if im fighting a scrub or if i legitimately outplayed him.
but i did once have a pretty good Cloud mirror,shame theres no way to put 3ds replays on pc.
>>320674389
>more better
please look up English grammar.
As for your post: You can identify good players by watching their move set. If they use every move of a character they're probably good. But this is just a rule of thumb.
>paying $7 for a character
Yeah, no. I'm not that big of a cuck.
>>320655808Cloud's recovery without limit is arguable worse than Little Mac's because he has generally one optios while Mac has like 3. and it has less priority than Mac's making it easier to hit them with if they fail the ledge snap. The only thing going for it is extra height and speed but that doesn't mean much.
>>320650651
pay 2win mate. looks like bayo is gonna be rugal tier
>>320675718
>muh dlc characters are so strongz
>they will literally shit on all other
>Sheik is still the sole S tier
>nobody plays muh op Roy at tourneys
sure
>Alt cloud doesnt do Omnislash v5
What kind of shit is this? They give Ryu two final smashes but not Cloud?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yltskc53Lyg
>>320651661
>which can't combo into anything
Wrong, they can combo into his limit break version moves.
If I have limit break, and you are around 40%, I can grab you, down throw, and finishing touch you just before you fly too far out of range from the bounce up, catching you in it and killing you instantly. If you are a heavy, it would need to be at 60% instead.
I have a hard time having fun playing anymore because people always use spam characters. I run into projectile spam characters like samus, mega man, link, ect all the time. It's not hard beating them, it's just tedious because I know the entire time they're just gonna run and throw shit
