>Let's make a political plot without having the talent for interesting, complex characters
>Let's focus the story on Basch and Ashe but make an even more immature version of Tidus the protagonist
>Let's make half the playable characters utterly pointless, including playboy bunny Chewbacca
>Let's make the battle system extremely tedious and predicate its gimmick on not having to actually play the game
>Let's give the narrator a comical Indian accent
There are people who legitimately believe this is the best Final Fantasy.
It could have been good if Square didn't fuck with Matsuno so much he had a nervous breakdown and had to hand development off to someone else.
>>320461417
>Let's focus the story on Basch and Ashe but make an even more immature version of Tidus the protagonist
People actually believe this? At least Vaan had an excuse to be a whiny bitch while Tidus had daddy issues.
Don't forget
>that horrendous item grind
>that plot that barely even matters
>the complete waste of Ivalice's races
>>320461417
>Let's make half the playable characters utterly pointless, including playboy bunny Chewbacca
she's great. Even with the lowest base stats, none of that even matters as long as you customize the characters to your liking with the license board.
Vaan is not the protagonist.
Did you even play the game?
>>320461654
>At least Vaan had an excuse to be a whiny bitch
He wasn't even that whiny. He was only whiny for the first quarter of the game until he became almost nonexistent in the plot
I just bench him and Penelo.
Makes Esper distribution and party role appointing a lot funner
Final Fantasy fans thrive on shitty plots and characters. And will go to any length to defend them. This is why the most popular FF games also have the most retarded, broken plots.
FFXII is a unique exception because it was actually an unfinished game with endless changes from the higher ups. The base story might have been decent, but Ito was never able to do what he wanted. While the FFX team was given total freedom to make one of the most retarded stories in the series. Its not unlike Xenogears and Chrono Cross being fucked all to hell by outside sources, while the team for FFVIII was given unlimited funding and freedom.
Once you realize that both the supported and unsupported games are flawed, you become completely aware than Final Fantasy as a whole is fucked.
KH >>> FF
>>320462067
>Final Fantasy fans thrive on shitty plots and characters
Big generalization
FF4, 5, 6, 12, Tactics, Tactics Advance, and Crystal Chronicles were great in plot and charm. A lot of them had great atmosphere to boot, especially CC
>>320462062
>Benching Vaan
I wish I could do this, but autism compels me to use him because of his stats. They're the best bar none. Excels at virtually every job except Machinist, which he's only bad at because it doesn't make use of his stellar stats
>>320461938
Usually people who make OPs like that got half-way through the game before giving upbecause they are bad, so they don't understand the plot or get to see the way it unfolds and how the characters develop. Then come here and complain about the plot and characters as if they've earned the right to have an opinion about it
>>320461547
Stop with that stupid hoax, moron.
Go out trying to face the real life and try to buy some common sense to your nearest supermarket, bastard.
>>320461547
Matsuno was removed from FFXII because he was a control freak who wanted development on an FF to be the director's "dictatorship" rather than the team's "democracy" (his words, not mine). Even a smaller-scale project like Vagrant Story was a huge mess with lots of delays and cancelled features and literally 50% of the story scrapped because of his incompetence.
>>320462062
Aren't they so plot irrelevant that whenever there's a cutscene you have the major players in the foreground talking, while Penelo and Vaan just hang out in the background and toss around FF memes and injokes?
>>320461417
I legitimately believe 12 is the best final fantasy after 11.
I enjoy it.
touch my dick. go on. touch it.
>>320462290
FFIV doesn't belong on that list. It established many of the worst cliches in the FF series. From the friend who betrays you (but not really) to the insular MC to endless plot twists that invalidate everything before it.
>>320462727
Yeah. Vaan's so irrelevant that without him Ashe's character development would have gone in a completely different direction and she'd have nobody to help her come to the realization that the Occuria are taking advantage of her and she probably would have gone through with nuking Archadia or at least participating in the Resistance and/or allying with Rozarria in open war with Archadia
>>320462446
Is English your second language or are you just retarded?
>>320462330
>They're the best bar none.
Please, Balthier is almost equal to Vann stat wise
The only problem is, MY "autism" wont put him with roles that makes him excel in physical combat.
I usually end up making him a mixed ranged weapon time mage. I'll probably make him a dragoon and give him a spear to take advantage of that attack on my next playthrough
>>320462934
>Using Time Mage/Dragoon
Now Time Mage I can forgive since it's critical in Weak Mode, but come the fuck on. If you use Dragoon you severely lack in autistic faculties
Anyway no. Nobody is Vaan's equal or near it. He's either first in, tied for first in, or second in every stat, if I'm not mistaken. Although I think he's third in magic to Ashe and Penelo.
You forgot the character development system being so terrible they introduced a new one in the Japanese-only re-release.
>>320461417
>Let's give the narrator a comical Indian accent
Granted, they could've toned it down or hired a different VA but it irks me how many people miss the Cold War parallels.
>Archades representing the first world with britbong accents
>Rozarria representing the second world with russkie accents
>Bhujerba representing the third world with Indian accentsyes technically archades should sound american and dalmasca have funky exotic accents like bhujerba but obviously that would lower popular appeal even more than it already was for this game, also naturally the british accent is a reference to colonialism and such
>>320461417
fuck this game.
This is the only game where i actually fell asleep in the middle of a boss fight.
Hated the combat and found the overall world to be too bland.
>>320462182
What's it like being wrong? None of the characters in KH have any complexity to them, and the stories are garbage. People play FF for story and characters most of the time, and while not every game is perfect, at least it didn't try and become deep and edgy, even though it has fucking Disney characters in it. Seriously, go fuck yourself. KH is the worst series ever made.
>>320463076
Balthier outclasses Vann in attack and speed
Van is just a bit less powerful than Balthier and has good magic so he can fit into any role
I always get cognitive dissonace with Balthier
I know Vaan is great, but he is such a bland character I cannot bother to waste weapons and espers on him
Stats dont matter much unless you want to focus in magicks anyway like >>320461741
If you pass 63 maxed , then you're fit to be a mage
>>320462639
Tbh I'd gladly take half of a talented genius' game over a whole game by most of the hacks that make up the industry.
>>320463514
It's funny because every single person that hates KH brings up Disney.
Don't you have a better argument than that?
>at least it didn't try and become deep and edgy
This is exactly what people who don't understand the story say.
And come on, FFXIII? Evey FF after XII sucks, sorry not sorry.
>>320461417
B-but the zodiac version fixed everything, how can you hate it!
>>320463219
>You forgot the character development system being so terrible they introduced a new one in the Japanese-only re-release.
When will this meme end?
Zodiac Job system takes all the fun away of customizing your characters
It's for people who hate having too much freedom and rather restrict themselves to just one class.
If you could have a secondary class or weapon class to choose from then it would be amazing.
Something similar to Bravely Default and FF5
But ZJS is shitty compared to them. They lock your character into the class for the rest of the game
FF Tactics has a better job system
>>320463958
>It's funny because every single person that hates KH brings up Disney.
The vast majority of people I see hate on KH bring up the repetitive combat or Naruto level shounen story.
>>320464050
I didn't say the Zodiac system was good. I said the original system was so terrible they felt the need to create a new system.
>>320463958
I hate Tetsuya Nomura and Disney.
>>320464115
then we agree that the ZJS is not good
I say it's worse than the original system but that's just what I think
>>320464050
>Zodiac Job system takes all the fun away of customizing your characters
Yeah, just look at all of this customization!
Oh man, technick focused build is so good guys!I've never played ZJS, but the original system was dogshit too.
>>320464252
I'm playing through FFXII right now and I can tell you that the licensing system is nothing but tedious.
Worst part is how LP is given to inactive characters but exp isn't, so they still end up useless except for bringing out to cast raise or esuna when a party member is hit.
>>320464330
It's basically just a shitty version of Digital Devil Saga 2's system.
>>320462062
>benching best waifu
its like you dont even like being treated tenderly
>>320461417
Sure am glad I dropped that game after an hour. Sounds like the whole thing is shit.
>>320461660
>Ivalice has the most interesting races in any Final Fantasy universe
>All playable characters in 12 are humans barring Fran
That and the focus on Vaan in the beginning is the only thing I hate about the game. If Ashe or Basch were the main characters like they were intended to be I wouldn't even mind Vaan tagging along. He's proven to be a likable character when he isn't the main focus.
Also, all his design needed was shirt under his vest and it improved tenfold.
>>320464419
And the Materia system is a shitty version of runes from Suikoden. As usual, Final Fantasy combat/customization sucks compared to other RPGs. Only time it was actually decent was with FFX.
>>320463958
>Don't you have a better argument than that.
Fine, I do. Disney films are meant to appeal to children and family most of the time (Exceptions being Pirates of the Caribbean, and maybe Up/Wall-E). When you introduce a series like Kingdom Hearts which is marketed heavily as being Disney themed, you don't make it deep and edgy, because kids won't understand it. Also, I literally said "Not every game is perfect." I know FFXIII sucks, I don't deny it, but XIV is a fucking awesome game. Eat my shit.
Oh, also, I do understand the story, hell, I'll summarize it right here
3 Keyblade wielders named Terra, Aqua, and Ven are apprentices of a man named Eraqus and a villain named Xehanort. Xehanort's old and is looking for a new body. His apprentice Vanitas looks like Sora as he's made from Ven's heart or whatever. Xehanort takes Terra's body becoming Terranort, but later goes by Ansem. He meets Ansem the Wise who later calls himself DiZ. From there, we cut to the original Kingdom Hearts, Sora fights Ansem who is Terra/Xehanort. Then we go to the Chain of Memories where Sora meets Namine and starts losing his memories, is put to sleep or some shit for a year. Turns out when Sora became a heartless in KHI, he unleashed Ven from his heart and he became Roxas. Roxas is a member of Originization XIII, and becomes friends with Axel and a girl named Xion. Xion dies, memories of her are erased since she's part of Sora. KHII happens then, Sora goes looking for Riku (again), they meet each other, beat Terra/Xehanort's nobody called Ansem, then KH3D happens.
There, now fuck off.
>>320464469
well you bought it anyways so oh well
>>320461417
>Let's make a political plot without having the talent for interesting, complex characters
There were interesting and complex characters (Vaan and Penelo might as well not exist).
They just didn't push hard enough with them. The story is swiftly cut short just as it is getting interesting and everything goes to shit.
Nothing really feels resolved at the end of the story, it's so goddamn disappointing.
>>320464558
FFX's customization is extremely linear and basically plays itself, it just creates the illusion of depth. Unless you're using the expert grid I suppose.
It did have more engaging combat than previous entries, certainly.
>>320464431
>benching best waifu
Penelo was cute I'll give you that
Ashe was where it was at for me
>>320464496
Yeah, they're a lot more likable as side characters
>>320462182
>>320463514
>>320463958
>>320464097
>>320464140
Jesus fuck guys can't we all just enjoy ALL the games instead of trying to one up one another on the internet?
>>320464719
I've always loved ff12, and I've always liked Ashe's characterization. One of my favourite lines from the entire game of great voice acting is Ashe's "Who would be next?" when you first meet her.
But I can't play revenant wings because I'm sad how the portrait of penelo looks. That AINT my waifu.no, ff12 was not my first ff, that would be ff1 in ~1990
>>320464925
No, because KH is trash and has a fanbase ALMOST as bad as Undertale
What amazes me is that some people claim it's the best when it's pretty hard to make the case for it being a good game at all. The only good thing the game had was graphics, the plot was a mess, they used none of the cool things of Ivalice, the gameplay was shit, I don'y even.
>>320464925
I will remind you that you are on /v/.
You will realize that playing and even more, enjoying, are anathema to the board.
I expect you to thank me.
>>320465024
The game easily has the best voice acting in the entire series. This cannot be argued.
>>320461417
I thought the antag half of the game had a variety of complex and interesting characters. The judges all felt very varied and alive with their personality and opinions, Vayne was great and felt like he made a great head of state in the way he spoke and the things he promised while being coy in his ambitions, and I didn't appreciate it at the time but Venat was very interesting as well as his motives seemed evil on the surface but was fighting his own little plot.
>>320465024
Its my favorite FF game by far. Only thing that comes close is tactics.
I like the enemy designs and boss designs. The music is amazing. The cast is pretty likable, the plot mature and not the typical FF crazy nonsense. There is no "im a dream" or "we were at the same orphanage" or "u have my memories" fag shit like that, just a cool sci fi fantasy political plot.
I also loved the license board and gambit system, and consider this game to have the best atb system in the series.
You can disagree with me, a lot of people do, but I don't think its hard at all to make a case as to why I love this game.
>>320465024
It's basically a hipster reaction to the fact that it's the only game with a story that is in theory aimed at adults and isn't shonenshit. Even if FFXII is shit, it isn't "for kiddies" so you have to elevate it to godhood if you want to like Final Fantasy without having an autistic breakdown.
>>320465024
Whenever an RPG has a huge selection of weapons that are well detailed that I can equip and are visible on the character, it is a high point for me
And I love the character designs, excepts Vaan's
Wish we get another Ivalice game soon
>>320464558
>And the Materia system is a shitty version of runes from Suikoden.
I love Suikoden and you are a fucking idiot. You can customize and do way cooler shit with materia.
The only character I recall liking is Balthier. Everyone else was just so down to earth that they became boring.
>>320465170
Never played any other FF past 12, so sure, I can't argue.
>>320464558
>Only time it was actually decent was with FFX.
Oh yes, the game where one character is completely redundant by an easy to obtain skill, another is flat out useless period outside of using him as a steal bitch, another becomes worthless by mid game once you get black mage spheres or elemental attack on weapons, and another falls off completely in post-game.
This leaves you with a dream, a stoner islander with a ball, and a small chick who plays chemist as the only characters worth bothering with.
Not to mention the sphere grid itself being linear as fuck and the fact that you have to grind stupidly to even BEGIN post game.Also, fuck you, Monster Skill materia is the best use of Blue Magic in the entire series.
>>320465332
I agree with most of what you said
The cast is likable, but Vaan and Penelo are just filler baggage
You will always see this complaint in every FF12 thread but it's just so fucking true
>>320465016
At least the KH fanbase has a bunch of hot girls.
>>320465403
Fran's cultural hangups were fairly interesting.
Ashe's issues with revenge and responsibility carried most of the story.
Basch was an awesome knight.
>>320465643
That's why they gave him cargo shorts instead of respectable clothing.
>>320465552
Penelo is for sure filler. But I think that Vaan works perfectly as not a character more so than a plot device. We really needed an introduction character to view these complex events through. Having a simple kid with clear motivations be the sort of center of this complicated political plot helped to explain to the audience what was happening as we see things initially through Vaan's eyes. I think it works well for the first few hours of gameplay and is a good way to sort of guide us into the real plot.
Also his relationship to Ashe was also an interesting one in how they both dealt with the death of a loved one. He really does have a little depth to him, but he is for sure not the protag of this story.
>>320465024
The game did a lot of shit right and even while feeling incomplete its easily better than half the games in the franchise and debatable with the rest.
>>320465580
Hot girls from other series.
>hurr Vaan
FF12's story was shit and it's not because of this guy. Almost all of FF12's story was left on the floor in Square Enix's office. One of the writers even said his favorite character is Penelo, but like 90% of what he wrote for her didn't make it into the game.
While yes, you can make the game play itself, but oddly enough that was kind of the fun thing about it. Figuring out best gambit setup for an area/fight.
Hunts were the best thing in the game.
Summons being from Tactics and not the usual ifrit, shiva,etc was great.
Story sucked and was unfinished.
Characters sucked because they were unfinished.
Overally still enjoyed it more than FF4, 6, 9, 10 and 13. But I don't consider FF to be the best shit ever, always liked other jrpgs more. FF is too "safe" if that makes sense.
>>320465919
I disagree with a lot of what you said but you made a fucking great point about gambits. They don't just assign themselves, you have to figure out the best gambits so that each battle runs smoothly as possible. It really is a fun mechanic, and if you don't prepare correctly a tough boss can go on forever and will need a lot of correction.
>>320465805
Good points, yes. That was the obvious role he was filling in.
I also want to point out that his "in" was through Balthier having the some profession he was pursuing... and yet Balthier himself barely gets any development in the plot. Wasted chances all around.
>>320466164
Balthier has some minor daddy issue subplot doesn't he?
>>320465919
>While yes, you can make the game play itself, but oddly enough that was kind of the fun thing about it. Figuring out best gambit setup for an area/fight.
I never found it fun myself. I didn't hate it, but it was a bit of a hassle sometimes. Having to buy/unlock them was understandable but also a pain.
>>320466463
That's fine. I wouldn't want many/all jrpgs to play like that either. It was just a nice change for once.
Now heaps of big jrpgs are boring control one character while rest of your party is braindead stupid AI. See FF15, FF7R, Xenoblade,etc.
>>320461417
>battle system is bad
and that's the only reason I stopped playing. it was just why to tedious or fucked up.
>>320466370
He's Cid's kid, so...
A lot of this shit would just work so much better in a novel.
>>320466885
>A lot of this shit would just work so much better in a novel.
The problem of the FF series as a whole. They're trying to be complex stories, not games. But even then, most of them would fail as a novel. Thanks to their obsession with story breaking plot twists.
>>320461654
What was his excuse besides "I was thrown into the game to garner the interest of a virtually nonexistent female Demographic."
>>320461417
The best? No. Was it still a damn good game? You bet your ass it was.
>>320462639
And yet when he gets removed from the project the final result is fun but lacking in cohesive direction. Traditional FFs benefitted from the democratic approach but the kind of games that Matsuno make feel uniquely his, and that's partly because he's uncompromising.
>>320464496
He looks a bit like Squall in that picture. Still leagues better than the shirtless design.
>>320467049
I don't agree, unless you're talking about the series after and including XII.
Previous games worked fine on their own.
X's linearity, which is annoying from an RPG standpoint, even works as yet another plot element. And that's great.
IX kinda runs around in circles and is just a weak story overall.
VIII is a nigh incoherent mess with a couple of strong moments here and there. Not even in a novel it'd work out from the elements we got from the game.
VII stands on its own, as the gradual exploration of the world slowly reveals the surprisingly subtle story.
VI lacks a strong protagonist for it to work as anything other than an RPG.
V is a saturday morning cartoon show.
IV is a cliche of cliches. Any relevant character moments don't really need further development since they're all simple stereotypes.
II feels like it had a proper story to tell, muddled by the gameplay. But that's the game's flaw.
>>320463995
The Zodiac version turned 12 from a bleh game to an its okay game and the primary reason for that was because they added a fast forward button for the boring combat
>>320465013
>favorite line is Ashe saying something
>not Judge Bergan's entire speech
Is this nigger serious?
Fucking HD rerelease when?
Fucking when?
We're doing PS2 ports on PS4, it's happening, right?
Right?
>>320468405
Have you tried emulating it with a high resolution on the PC?
>>320468609
If that was an option for me I wouldn't be awaiting a port for the PS4.
Apparently this happened though, and this was around when X/X-2 hd came out:
http://arcadesushi.com/final-fantasy-12-hd-remaster-prima-reveal/
>>320468886
I am at the Stilshrine of Miriam. How far am I into the game?
Needs more Fran
>>320471013
Just about every bunny girl was hotter than Fran.
Yeah but Vaan has a creamy boy tummy.
Vaan
>>320461417
The art design was incredible, but everything else was bland, even the soundtrack. Matsuno works better with darker stories, not whatever the hell FF12 was trying to be.
Can anyone elaborate on 12s development problems? what happened with Matsuno? I heard significant parts of the story were basically changed or left out
>>320476661
>even the soundtrack
Bitch please. It's easily a top 3 soundtrack of the entire franchise.
>>320476584
Worst fucking character.
it has the best gameplay in the series so yea
>>320476980
it's over-orchestrated as fuck mang
the only good song wasn't even used in the game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoNKRODXuYk
>>320476881
As I understand it when he left the cutscenes were already either deep in production or complete, but there wasn't really any reference document with specific plot points or a script or anything, so whoever took over just had to awkwardly string everything together as best he could.
>>320461417
It's like people think differently than you or something.
>>320461417
Larsa porn is the only good thing about it.
>>320471013
I really like the art and graphics in xii
they've aged surprisingly well
