Why do gamers hate character development so much?
Notice how all the most popular characters are literal mary sues "badasses" with le cool quotable lines.
Whereas the characters with actual human flaws they have to overcome are just despised and seen as faggots.
Pic related.
>>319799605
Gamers are illiterate and can only handle simple concepts like 1 dimensional characters.
>>319799605
also
>stop being mean to each other! the Abyss characters are so MEANNN
>>319799605
Too bad Asch was just far and above cooler and better looking with sweetass armor and aesthetic, while Luke had good development as a character but holy fuck that ab-opening shirt and his shit hair later in the game triggers me to this day.
How come "Character is a whiny asshole that slowly stops being a whiny asshole" is the only kind of character development /v/ seems to like?
>>319799605
Agreed op pic related way better than the old one.
>>319800480
they both look stupid, plus Asch was a huge bitch
>>319800280
This.
Twilight Princess is a prime example. People couldn't fucking STAND Zant having a shred of character to his role as villain.
>>319799605
>>319800680
>that last panel
all my kekek
>>319800480
>Asch was just far and above cooler
Asch was really just an angry bitch.
>>319801367
why didn't he just end it sooner
They remind them of their own one-dimensional flawed personality that they either refuse to or even are incapable of improving.
That's why I actually like Cloud. He may have been a bit cringy at first, but he came around to be a genuinely interesting and in the end likable character, not only for where he ended up, but what he went through and ultimately conquered.He wasn't even THAT bad at the beginning if you look at him how he actually is, i.e. not a Linkin Park edgelord but just a smug wiseass who thinks he's the shit
Western culture values simplicity over complexity (no, it's not "basic human nature", its specifically a western thing) and have a tendency to break complex characters down to their most basic traits without attempting to understand the character at all.
This is most typically seen in JRPGs. Some examples off the top of my head, specifically from the Final Fantasy series:
>Squall is just an emo faggot (He's a mercenary with a history of being abandoned by his caretakers whose afraid of becoming attached to his comrades, due to the short life expectancy of their line of work)
>Tidus is just a whiny teenager who hates his dad (He moreso hates his mother who neglected him after Jecht's disappearance and is reflecting her flaws onto his father)
>Cloud is a cool, cocky, asshole and AC Cloud is an emo bitch (Cocky Cloud is the Zack influence talking, Cloud's true nature was always that of the insecure, avoidant, loner we see in Advent Children since he was a child. We see this in his flashbacks during his coma. Cloud never did anything to be cocky about before his personality shift. "Let's mosey" is a localization decision that people put way too much weight in.)
>>319799605
That picture isn't very accurate. Luke does have the most character development out of most Tales of MCs but Yuri can hardly be called a Gary Stu.
>>319800480
Asch was a whiny asshole and Luke was a retard.
>>319801367
fucking replicaposters, Asch is the most legit fucker around who just goes around doing practically all the important shit in the game.
You'd be pissed too if you had your entire lifespan basically torn in half and got replaced by some bitch replica so you didn't have a life anymore.
RREEEEEEEEPLICAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>>319799605
Yuri murders that one guy in the middle of the night, how the fuck is he a mary sue?
hes one of the few protags ive ever seen do something like that in a game
>>319803134
>Is an edgy faggot in a world of edgy faggots
>Never gets called out for his hypocrisies and murders
>The only guy who ever calls him out agrees that he's right by the end of the game
>The only girl who calls him out had a mental breakdown anyways so it rang hollow
>The final chapter that was supposed to parallel him with the villain was changed into something irrelevant so Yuri remains on the moral high ground all game
Nah, he's a Mary sue. If not, at least a creators pet.
>People that shit on Zelos while praising Kratos
But I like character development.
>go from a whiny bitch to a submissive fuccboi
Luke's was just shit and he's shit, yo. I honestly dropped the game around the battle with Van because I couldn't take it anymore. Though that one scene with Asch and Alice with Luke eavesdropping almost made me drop it sooner.
Things would be better if Jade was protag, or hell even that asshurt loser Asch.
>>319803752
Code gayass?
>>319803024
>Western culture values simplicity over complexity
Are you fucking stupid? Have you ever been to a god damn library? The West is the king of literary complexity and analysis you. Stop watching anime for a second and crack open a god damn book you queer.
>>319803024
Nah, that's just people who play video games
>>319803024
To be fair, by the time he got to moseying, he had come to terms with everything, but had also finally become strong, and his former inability to be strong was much of what contributed to his insecurity. By then, he had every right to be that confident.
AC Cloud was gloomy due to space cancer and whatnot.
>>319803024
You're a dumbass with little to no understanding of western culture.
>>319799605
Because a lot of what makes games enjoyable is escapism, so a majority of people prefer to be in control of a badass protag who has courage and initiative rather than one who could be construed as a reflection of one's negative traits.
I can see why people find Luke grating because his most prominent character traits are decidedly negative no matter what part of his development the story is at.
>>319803752
>Alice
Who?
>>319804537
Ah shit, I can never remember her name
Natalia I mean
>>319799605
Both stories have different themes? Therefore vastly different lead characters?
Abyss was mostly about Luke himself and the meaning of life, Vesperia was mostly about justice and different means we use it.
Honestly you'd need to be a retard not to see this.
>>319799605
Yuri is actually quite likable. He doesn't have a lot of development, but he doesn't need it either. He is already mature and takes responsibility for others and his own actions especially. He simply learns that going his own path and dealing with small fries for justice, he makes way for the bigger ones to cause worse problems. So yes, he has to take responsibility again, something many adults struggle to take no matter what age.
>B-b-but Luke had tons of development
Luke is a spoiled brat with 0 responsibility that is almost literally just born into the world knowing nothing.
Even if Yuri doesn't have the appeal of development. He does have the appeal of doing what is "right" and taking responsibility. They gave him more development with the extra stuff that was released later. It formed him though.
>>319799605
I don't know.
Personally I think Luke is the better character, while Yuri is a more likeable person. If they could just strike a good balance between the two, that'd be great.
>>319799605
who cares?
vesperia is more fun than abyss anyways
>>319800680
But all his "development" happens over the course of 1 chapter. Also his most detestable moments are from his post development state most notably when he taunts mundus about how killing his unborn son was hilarious
>>319803976
That finding is based on psychological research in which researchers would expose people from individualist cultures (mostly westerners) and people from collectivist cultures (mostly easterners) to different stimuli like pictures, designs, or stories and then rate them on stuff like "what do you remember from the thing you just read" "which one did you prefer" etc.
It was found that people from individualist cultures tended to prefer simpler stimuli that was "straight to the point" and were better at remembering the main points from those stimuli. Stuff like "what color was the wolf in the center of the frame of this picture of a forest". Comparatively people from collectivist cultures tended to prefer stimuli that were more complex or convoluted, and had an easier time remembering smaller details (stuff like "how many trees were in the forest"), thus taking in the larger picture.
The finding of course doesn't apply to everyone, but is a general sentiment that has typically been found across cultures.
>>319804997
>Luke is a spoiled brat with 0 responsibility that is almost literally just born into the world knowing nothing.
Which would have been better if he wasn't magically transformed into the world's most generic anime protagonist. To be honest though the entire cast of Abyss was pretty shit, except possibly Jade.
>>319803024
I don't really know if I'd say it's a Western thing specifically. For every JRPG character that has complexity, there are ten that really AREN'T anything more than flat archetypes...and they were written that way by Japanese people. Who are Eastern.
Why are Abyssfags always trying their hardest to make sure people don't forget about their favorite retards. Every character in Abyss was fucking terrible including your waifu Tear, she's the worst
>>319803331
he was literally 10 years old
>Yuri
>Mary sue
Did you play the game?
I hate this damn term, any character who isnt a broken mess is called a mary sue these days
>>319803403
>Yuri murders that one guy in the middle of the night, how the fuck is he a mary sue?
Because he suffers no actual consequences for it and no one else in the party really, truly gave a shit. They were mildly upset at the most. And the people he killed were all morally reprehensible anyway, so why would anyone care?
Yuri never does anything wrong, ever, in the entire game. Although I'm not sure I agree with calling him a Gary Stu, he is dangerously close to being flawless.
>>319805363
Hold up nigga, Vesperia is my favorite but Tear is a top tier waifu and Jade is one of the best Tales characters ever you are a giant faggot
Yuri is a tool to help the growth of the characters around him. Karol is easily top 5 in best character development in this series
>>319805363
>Every character in Abyss was fucking terrible
>implying any tales character is good
they are all shit
>>319805363
Take it back.
TAKE IT BACK!
>>319805281
Guy did nothing wrong Jade is just as much a dick as the other characters.
>>319804902
>Vesperia was mostly about justice and different means we use it.
Until they dropped it half-way through so that they could go with the generic "find all the spirits and save the world from the big bad" plot.
>>319805569
>Because he suffers no actual consequences for it
He got fucking stabbed.
>>319805595
>Karol is easily top 5 in best character development in this series
No wonder fans hate him so much.
>>319805281
Guy did nothing wrong Jade is just as much a dick as the other characters.
>>319805483
It's not that he's overpowered it's just that he can allegedly do no wrong and everyone just lets him do what he wants even when he is in the wrong.
>>319805948I love shotas, butKarol is fucking annoying. I don't blame anyone for hating him.
>>319805873
Which wasn't his fault, the girl who stabbed him (can't remember her name) was in the wrong. He still had the moral high ground.
Being a mary sue isn't about not having bad things happen to you, it's about never having bad things happen to you that you actually DESERVE.
>>319806020
Well, I agree he can't compare to Genis or especially Mao.
>>319805595
Too bad Karol's a fucking obnoxious little shit who I wanted to die. No matter how fleshed out his development is, his role as "annoying little kid" makes it basically impossible for me to like him. He's like Anise, except with a more annoying voice, less use in battle, and isn't a cute girl.
Did someone say character development?
>That part in Eternia where you play as an Eggbear
Oh god what have I done
>>319805967
But, he does something wrong. Yuri killed an unarmed old man, he is a murderer.
>>319799605
All I see is gay animu boys
>>319805967
>>319805862
>le Jade is an asshole meme
I'll bet you like that cunt Edna.
>>319803024
>Advent Children
That was more due to the stigma than anything. Once he got rid of it, he became better.
>wanting character development in a video game
>wanting story period
>not wanting GAMEPLAY above all else, in a medium that's supposed to reward you with gameplay that you play
>WANTING NON-INTERACTION IN AN INTERACTIVE MEDIUM
I want the cinematic apologists to leave.
>>319805967
He does what he wants because he's an Alpha and has a strong personality. The only one who is assertive besides him is Judith and she doesnt care enough to stop him since she was doing her own shit for half the game, Rita is assertive but she's young and physically violent.
Yuri commands attention and respect so naturally he gets away with doing what he wants for the most part. Plus no one besides Flynn knows he killed Cumore and the Magistrate and Flynn was too beta to do anything about it.
He does do wrong, he just gets out of it or things work out in the end
>>319806224
Who was a piece of shit that would have gotten away Scot free. He's a vigilante, not a Mary Sue. They make no effort in game to say he is right.
Just here to say:
I like them both
>>319806340
Indeed.
>mfw faggots who think Tales is good for anything other than the combat
>>319806070
The girl who stabbed Yuri was part of Flynn's team, she stabs him because she fears that Yuri is going to end up hurting her captain's reputation.
This IS Yuri's fault. If he didn't acted like a douche, the girl wouldn't had to resort to almost killing him.
>>319805159
Source?
I mean. even without a source obviously that's true, I can think of all the SUPERIOR AND COMPLEX eastern creations. Naruto, Dragonball, K-Dramas, K-Pop. Just exquisite. Their video games are so deep too. The West makes gay bullshit like Bioshock, New Vegas, and Baldurs gate. The east makes deep, complex games. Like Sengan Kagura, you'd never see a western dev make such deep art.
This theory also accounts for why the East was so FUCKING ADVANCED compared to the west, and when Japan and China started to westernize, they've only been going down the toilet. I mean, ever since they started following the west, and become MORE individualistic as time goes on, they just get worse.
LEAVE KAROL ALONE
He might be the only child character in this series that doesn't fuck anything up for the party
>>319799605
Off yourself. PLEASE.
>>319806224
I liked that Yuri broke the bounds of typical JRPG protags by killing that guy in cold blood.
His human desire to dispense justice made him a much likable character to me from that point on.
>>319806548
This. I really don't understand why people have a hard time understanding that Ragou and Cumore were murdering INNOCENT PEOPLE. Yuri did the right thing.
>>319806340
yeah who would want character development in an rpg
>>319806501
I bet you liked Luke right up until Akzeriuth
Ragou and Cumore were bad people and they deserved to die no one says anything about Lloyd when he killed those fuckers
>>319801101
>Tidus
>Whiny asshole at the start
>Becomes mature by the time he gets to Zanarkand
>Willingly saves the world even after finding out it would erase him from existence
>cool big bro to Rikku
>doesn't hate Al Bhed
>plays for the worst team in Besaid and turns them into championship winners.
>>319807376
Actually hated Luke until after Akzeriuth because he was being a edgy faggot and didnt care about people who were trying to help him like Guy
He was alright afterwords nothing too special
>>319807376
>yeah who would want character development in an rpg
An RPG that focuses too much on story is a terrible RPG.
The entire genre,in fact, is flawed by focusing so much on cinematics and story and dialogue. The gameplay is almost always barebones and consists of the same cliches repeated ad infinitum.
>fighting le spoopy skeletons
>a sewer level
>generic love scene/cringeworthy romance
>fighting giant rats
>big powerup that saves the heroes when they need it for no reason other than plot
>mascot who makes witty retorts
>1 dimensional villains
But no, we need to devote 30 minutes to the typical bathhouse scene where our kawaii twink boy hero accidently goes into the girl baths and sees the love interest naked! haha so embarassing tee hee ^____^!!
>mfw people expect me to pay upwards of 30 dollars for this
Why do Abyss fans always have to make shit up about Vesperia to make their game look better? I guess Abyss fans are just insecure.
It's always the same thing too, Abyss fanboy that has terribly vague recollections of Vesperia from playing the game years ago, or watching a LP speaks against the game writing with factually wrong statement.
>Why does nobody question Yuri's acts when he murders?
Because they are all adults with their own issues and motivations and don't care quite that much about Yuri to give him some stupid moral sermon about the matter. And all of them are all too aware of the sort of world they live in.
Look for a moment at the party members.
Rita only cares about Blastia, Estelle and only really starts caring about Yuri very late into the game.
Raven is a double agent/traitor with his own agenda.
Judith has also her own agenda and is a loner by nature.
Repede is a dog.
The exception being Karol and Estelle, who have Yuri as a mentor/big brother figure.
The one that really cares about this is Flynn, the only one in the party that has know Yuri since his childhood.
>Nobody stands up against Yuri!
The entire party does when he was about to go final solution on Estelle. Also Flynn on countless occasions.
>Yuri never develops from his vigilante mindset!
Except for his entire dialogue with Phaeroh with shows that he clearly regrets his actions and previous mentality. Also the credit scenes.
>Flynn admits that Yuri's ideology was the correct one!
Not really, it's about how there is no "correct" ideology. Hence the entire third act of everybody putting aside their difference to face a common threat. To further reinforce this during the Yuri VS Flynn duel the game process if either of them wins.
And other countless examples.
There is a difference between having issues with a game's writing and just talking out of your ass/making shit up, most complains against Vesperia's writing on /v/ are the latter.
>>319803698
>Praising Kratos
Who the fuck would possibly think that Kratos is a complex character?
>>319807304
Killing people in cold blood isn't even that unusual in JRPGs. Pretty much all FF protags did it, some even had it as their job (see Squall or the whole Class Zero form FF Type 0}.
>>319807794
Abyssfags have a victim complex because Bamco blamed their game's low sales as the reason why tales games stopped getting localized
>>319800605
>How come "Character is a whiny asshole that slowly stops being a whiny asshole" is the only kind of character development /v/ seems to like?
Relate to the whiny asshole part and the second part is wish fulfillment.
>>319807794
they stand up to him and then end up agreeing with him
>>319808132
Except they preach about how killing is wrong or power of friendship shit. Yuri did neither
>>319808979
How can they "agree with him" when not even Yuri believes his methods are appropriate?
Are you braindead?
>>319807868
/v/ years back when Tales of threads were more common.
>>319807106
>implying Mao did anything wrong
He and Karol are the best though
>>319808984
Again, no. Squall for example even has a debate with a pacifist at one point and wins it (his position is that pacifism can't work and killing is unavoidable and necessary). The Class Zero cadets laugh when they hear about three warring countries signing a much awaited peace treaty ("Two mortal enemies will now shake hands and make up? I give it until nightfall."). Outside of the Tales games, the moralfag preachiness is not really that common.
>>319808984
>>319808984
But killing is wrong anon. Don't be silly.
>>319809820
Yuri believes his methods are appropriate. Otherwise he wouldn't take matters into his own hand, which he blatantly spouts out that he will serve justice even if it means dirtying his hands. He doesn't stand by this believe later in the game, once he sees that his actions didn't do the things he thought they would.
>>319799605
Abyss is the worst Tales game and one of the worst JRPGs ever made. Luke was okay though.
>>319799605
You have a lot of growing up to do OP. Luke is a terrible repetitive annoying character. His "development" is shallow and happens instantaneously, not to mention hair cutting.
>>319800605
Because they are whiny children themselves and don't understand that characterization is far more important than development. It's what sets characters apart.
>>319807079
This isn't the exact study I knew of before, but its similar enough and has the same points.
http://www.brandeis.edu/gutchess/publications/Gutchess_Indeck.pdf
Also you seem really defensive. I wasn't even necessarily speaking of how stories are written, or by whom, but merely the way they're interpreted and compared.
When people talk about character "development", do they mean establishing and initially setting up or do they mean growing and changing? It can mean either but they're obviously both very different.
The only good things about Luke were making a big deal about the first time he kills a human npc enemy, something most jrpgs just gloss over then say shit like "hurr we can't kill this guy because we'd be just like him" and how he kicked Mieu around.
>>319812025
the latter
(how the character develops in the context of the story, not the character's premise development by the creators)
>>319812025
Idiots like OP think characters have to do a complete 180 from their initial state at the beginning of the game to be "good"
>>319803024
>western culture
>uses JRPGs as an example
???
>>319812139
I was talking about fully in the context of the story. Developing a static character means showing the ins and outs of how that character thinks and acts through plot events, even if that character doesn't experience any change in those aspects. I don't mean a supplemental material preview summary or anything.
>>319807079
Holy shit could you possibly be anymore butthurt?
>>319803024
If you look at everything like this than ME3 and any modern CoD would blow your mind.
>>319812373
I think he means that those are the Western interpretations of those characters. Not that I agree with his point.
>Character who is somehow responsible for murdering an entire city despite having people around him who knew very clearly what was happening but refused to do anything while he, a sheltered know-nothing, is herded along like cattle. His character development comes from everybody saying it's his fault, and being herded into becoming a convenient fix for their problems. He cuts his hair because that means he's developed into his own man, then goes on to cause the deaths of many other innocent people in his crusade to stop a bad guy whom could easily of been stopped several times earlier in the story and has very poorly written motivations
>Character who turns into a vigilante to kill people who use the law as they see fit, nip problems in the bud before they become bigger problems and hurt innocent people. Can't come to terms with killing Estelle even though she can potentially kill thousands, grows as a flawed human being and accepts himself for who he is
One's a generic pampered hero whose life continues to be a perpetual lie and misgiving, the other's an average joe who hates people taking advantage of weaker ones.
Obviously, people are going to like Yuri more. He's an all around better and more original character. Doesn't have any of that cliche clone business going on either.
>>319803698
>People that shit on Zelos while praising Kratos
Zelos was a dick to everyone.
No regrets killing him
>>319807868
>Who the fuck would possibly think that Kratos is a complex character?
he's better than Zelos.
A lot of "weebs" think characters are only good if they have lots of angst. I blame shit anime like Evangelion.
>>319804997
>Luke is a spoiled brat with 0 responsibility
same with Zelos
but Luke matures. Zelos is a prick until the end
none tales had more development than Zestiria
Zestiria is the best tales to date
Because Luke developed from a somewhat entertaining douchebag to a boring self-deprecating doormat.
And the party's hypocrisy over Anise was really shitty.
Yuri may not have "developed" much but it didn't matter because he was likable and stood out among other Tales MCs anyways.
tl;dr: Character with Development =/= good (or likable) character.
>>319799605
>Why do gamers hate character development so much?
yeah, some people hated the development that Raiden got from MGS2 to MGS4
he was a piece of shit in 2 that never got better
>>319799605
Character development is great. Luke however is just a massive fag who turns into a mary sue, and that's not so great.
>Character pisses and moans about this one stupid thing 90% of the game annoying the shit out of you
>some big event happens
>wow, I was a faggot this whole time, now I'll change and be a better person
>literally says nothing but generic "let's go" comments the last 10% of the game
This is what idiots think is "development"
I was waiting for a good Tales thread to ask this
Could someone please explain to me what the fuck was up with Dhaos?
>>319816231
>muh planet
>>319816450
But why didn't he just do the one thing needed to fix his planet instead of ... everything else?
>>319807776
>this entire post over a single sentence
someone sure got assblasted
>>319807794
I want to fuck Arche
>>319817123
KISS KISS KISS
>>319799605
Are you fucking retarded? Yuri wasn't generic. Generic would be someone similar to Lloyd.
>>319815161
>Because Luke developed from a somewhat entertaining douchebag to a boring self-deprecating doormat.
To be fair, it'd be hard not to considering he was surrounded by assholes that never hesitated to tell him how shit he was throughout the whole game. Even his love interest did it if I recall.
>>319817123
>>319817123
>>319817442
Like pottery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgUhrhnqkGk
>>319817809
Let's say that Namco decides to actually remake Phantasia instead of just porting the PS1 version again.
Would you be okay with Misono doing a cover of this OP?
>>319818059
Who's Misono? Any examples?I don't think its gonna happen anytime soon. Game has been ported/remade many times already.
>>319818294
Singer of pretty much every Symphonia related vocal song plus the OP of Tempest
>>319817478
>Wanting to play as a doormat that everyone calls shit
Whatever floats peoples boats, I guess.
>>319818776
But I played Guy more
>>319818443
>every Symphonia related vocal song
Like its OP?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inobRI2Bk8A
Nah, she sounds trash.
Name one protag who gets more character developement than Estelle.
Protip:You can't
>>319819118
Ramza Beoulve
>you will die before ToD: DC translation is finished
because people barely change in real life
funnily enough, those badasses from the start types are far more realistic
>>319814364
But that's not what is being discussed.
Kratos is not a complex character.
>he's better than Zelos.
No, he's not. Kratos is an enormous hyprocrite and a worse person than Zelos, all things considered. He enabled the continuation of the project which killed his wife because he was too sad about his dead wife to do anything but be a thoughtless ass slave to Mithos, the guy who oversaw operations of the organization which killed his wife.
Zelos is a shithead, but at least he was honest with himself about it.
>>319819118
I dunno about that bitch you are posting, but ToV Estelle herself was too generic and every time Judith appeared on screen I forgot she existed. She did make me glad Yuri had no outright love interest though.
>>319814798
I wish this was true, I really liked the cast
>>319819503
>but at least he was honest with himself about it.
and did nothing to try and make himself seem more than a spoiled rich kid who is a dick
>>319819385
This guy is somewhat right.Problem is no one in video games can write.
>>319805863
Basically this. It's the main reason why so many people feel yuri is a Mary sue since nothing challenges his ideals.
>>319819860
Right, an honest shithead.
Imagine that Batman, after seeing his parents get gunned down, decided to go work for Joe Chill and kill women for their pearl necklaces. All while crying about his dead parents. That's basically Kratos, and that's why he's worse than some guy who's running away from the obligations of being the Chosen.
>>319810401
R E K T
Elize is the best.
THE BEST!
>>319820969
Joe Chill?
>obligations of being the Chosen.
his world was the prosperous world. He didn't have to do shit. All that being the Chosen allowed Zelos to be a total dick and not care because he was the Chosen
>>319821290
>All those times where Teepo chomps Jude
>All those times where Teepo gropes Milla
>Bazongas
>It was all in Elizes mind
How can one little girl be so fucking slutty?
>>319821290
>spend half the game hating Teepo, but loving Elize
>all of Teepo's annoying bullshit was Elize
>I hated Elize all along
Wa-hey
>>319821924
Teepo grew on me even though I hate to admit it.
Literally the only Tales mascot that I liked.
