![473246[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/CTeJdxZ.jpg "473246[1].jpg")
do you agree that rng in games is because of the lack of ideas and incompetent designers that only want your easy money?
It's a part of risk management, people who whinge about it are scrubs.
No.
Weaklings can't surpass a 20!
>>319582207
If there was no RNG, then you'd basically be playing a Visual Novel. There's no game at all if there's no chance to lose.
>I just need to follow these exact steps in order
>>319582389
>>319582348
>>319582292
>>319582495
>>>/reddit/
inb4 luck is skill
It absolutely is lazy development, it's the easy way out from a gameplay perspective and it's the easy way out from a player retention perspective as well.
I'm tired of rng in games, and that goes doubly so for games that try to put on a facade of being competitive when they contain rng elements.
>>319582207
It's the result of technical limitations with pen and paper RPGs being carried forward as "tradition"
RNG cheapens games, anyone who says otherwise is just trolling.
>>319582207
I've seen plenty of valid criticisms for RNG but this is not one I've ever seen before
>>319582207
Rng can increase the tension of a game
>If I do everything right, I deserve to win.
Id like rng to be in the next dark souls. Just so pvp goes out the window.
>>319582801
YES.
>>319582801
That is correct, yes.
>>319582947
>>319582893
May as well play some linear garbage like gone homo then
>>319582840
If the netcode and hackers haven't stopped the PvP in those games, nothing will
>>319582782
Really having to take a piss can increase the tension of a game. Relying on slot machine mechanics to create tension just makes the point of incompetency.
>>319583080
Real life has lots of RNG in it though, you faggot.
Even fucking chess has RNG.
>White gets to move first
>Okay who gets to be white
>let's flip for it
>>319582207
um, how about not phrasing this in black and white terms?
>>319583207
>born black
gg lost already, nice rng game jesus
>>319583207
>he doesn't know that coin flips have a 51/49% chance to be Heads/Tails
>>319582207
Flashy rng appeals to retards who are too dumb to think about deeper strategy games but still want to occasionally win at something mathematical enough that they can pretend they're smart.
It provides a challenge
If you are 100% certain you can win with a specific strategy it takes all the fun out of the game
>>319583360
>he does know but both people want to pick heads
>now they have to use Rock Paper Scissors to determine who gets Heads on the coin flip to be white
>>319582602
>>319582601
>Doesn't know the depth of RNG.
Even doing damage in most games have a form of RNG, can you crit? RNG, is you're damage between 40 and 60? RNG, you just gained exp? RNG
Lol OP got his ass kicked and now blames it on RNG
>>319583463
>gaining exp
In what fucking game do you play where the exp gain isn't a fixed table? lol
>>319582207
there's always a random element to everything, especially in melee battles.
There's no way to accurately portray everything in a tussle, plus you would have to guess what enemy does too.
If theere were no random effects, the only thing that would matter would be pure stats and the 0.1 of difference would be the deciding factor.
>>319583918
Not ENTIRELY true.
The only kind of games that would be still fun and good while being devoid of RNG are purely competitive ones.
Like a fighting game, FPS, or a MOBA. They don't NEED RNG, even though several of them use it.
>fixed damage/ROF for specific weapons
>map and starting spots are perfectly mirrored for both teams/both sides
>no cross-ups for fighting games, etc
But then I guess people would cry that RNG dictated having good players on their team, or it was RNG that someone else had more time to play the game than them.
i think this thread is too smart for /v/
>>319584956
agree
>>319583463
>can you crit? RNG, is you're damage between 40 and 60? RNG
None of that is acceptable, though.
>>319583360
Uh am I missing something because that still random, higher odds in one favor but random
>>319584284
RNG adds depth to competitive multiplayer because you can take unlikely risks and come out ahead.
If everything was deterministic you might as well GG the moment you know the opponent is simply superior in every way. High risks don't pay off.
Uncertainty makes games interesting. Dice rolling by itself is an interesting game people bet money on.
>>319586797
>RNG adds depth
haha
hahahah
In single-player it's fine, and can lead to interesting builds when executed correctly.
In multi-player it's just a direct substitute for actual skill to give scrublords a chance and doing something worthwhile.
dont most games use pseudo-rng anyway, making it actually less random
>>319586797
I can take unlikely risks in competitive multiplayer games with zero luck too anon, this is the shittiest defense of the shittiest mechanic.
>If everything was deterministic you might as well GG the moment you know the opponent is simply superior in every way.
Yeah, shouldn't that be the way? People who are better at the game win at the game.
Why does that seem like such a foreign concept?
>>319587086
name me one competitive multiplayer game where you can win purely with luck
>>319587213
You still can't determine what the roll will be idiot, if anything it makes for more RNG because ontop of inconceivable RNG there are formulas to make the RNG more random.
>>319587309
Counter-strike.
RNG in games is good only if the core design is centered around total RNG or no RNG. Anything in between is shit.
RNG is good if the game is well designed
RNG should add a negative for the player to deal with, or give them a small boost to help out
Regardless of the roll, the player should not have to restart a whole fight because they are now crippled from the start (while another player might have steamrolled the boss using the same setup). I used to play FF Record Keeper and I noticed the strategy there, since its a mobage, was not to force you to put money into the game to clear the events, but make it so that without the investment you'd need to reload multiple times to get a favorable start to a boss battle. Then of course the best equipments give huge boosts that make the content entirely trivial.
And from the looks of things, it worked. People pay little bits here and there. Oh I'll just roll more for these FF7 items because it's the most frequented realm, it's only a few dollars... Oh I did need one for the FF12 realm as well, at least it's only a couple more dollars...
>>319587309
Magic the Gathering
>>319582292
This and
>>319582602
this. RNG is the spice of games, but you can't seriously call a game competitive with RNG.
>B-but there's randomness in some sports too!
Yes, and everyone's trying their best to reduce it to a minimum, not trying to implement additional randomness
>>319586937
Consider a character that procs a powerful attack 17% of the time. You don't know whether the next three attacks will proc. To capitalize on your odds, you might as well play like they will. To minimize exposure, your opponent must also expect the worst. Or decide to risk it.
Consider another character that has a powerful attack every six attacks. You know exactly when it's powerful and after that you know it will not be powerful. Your enemy also knows this and will trade attacks between your guaranteed powerful attacks, running away when he has counted your powerful attack.
In both cases you have the same expected values, meaning over the long run everything evens out. In the latter case, there is less decision making. It is entirely predictable and boring. RNG has made the interaction interesting.
Which games are the worst offenders of RNG?
if games without RNG are fun, then why is Chess not as popular as CSGO?
>>319582207
RNG is fine as long it has obvious risks but slapping everything with RNG as a way to balance shit isn't
>>319587796
Mobas and casual "team" shooters
>>319582207
As far as i know, only speedrunners complain about RNG. It replaced the word "luck".
>>319587796
>gambling for a perfect t&t in diablo 3
must be the most frustrated i've ever been with a videogame when my shitter friend got em in like 5 hours
>>319587853
Because scrublords can't play games where skill is the only factor, they need free wins thanks to RNG
If there was a 10% chance per move that your unit dies chess would be the most played game on twitch.
>>319587796
Hearthstone
>>319587297
Better players will still win when RNG is involved. They just have to manage the additional uncertainty introduced by RNG better. That additional uncertainty allows you to take more and harsher risks, hence it is more interesting.
>>319587796
Any MMO
>>319587853
Just because you don't see esports or espn having chess matches doesn't mean it's not popular you retard
Anyone who thinks random elements instantly make a game noncompetitive is retarded.
>DURR POKER ISN'T A GAME OF SKILL BECAUSE THE CARDS ARE JUST RANDOM LOL
Understanding how to effectively handle the odds of certain things happening is a skill dummy.
>>319587730
Honestly the guaranteed proc on every 6th hit sounds more interesting to play with and against.
Rewards players for tracking it, paying attention to details in the middle of complex situations.
As opposed to random 1/6 chance rewarding absolutely nothing at all.
ITT: people that never experienced the joy of critkilling a boss with your last living character.
By the way, why doesn't magic crit in most games? I assume that's to avoid having to do separate animations for each spell critting but that's weak.
>>319587309
Any TCG ever
Pokemon especially has a shitload of coin flip effects in the game, while tons of those cards are shit something like this can be very effective if you get heads, provided you can fit four copies into your deck of exactly 60 cards.
Given the nature of the game, starting hands can fuck you over super badly as well while the other guy is pulling off Shaymin/Sycamore to empty out half of his entire fucking deck in one turn.
>>319588389
There's a difference from having a sane estimate from LOLOLOL HE GOT THE BAD RNG NIGGAH xDD HEARTHSTONE BEST PLAYS VIDEO
In a turn based RPG, the RNG exists to put non-combat stats on the same level as combat ones. It's a means of statistic balance the requires you to specialise into a set of skills, depending on what you want to do or your playstyle to 'beat the odds'.
In a real time RPG, RNG exists to put combat stats on the same level as non-combat stats, because without a per turn limit on how much damage you can do, specialising in combat isn't necessary. It's like the difference between Morrowind and Oblivion. The simple act of removing misses and failed spellcasts makes specialising in combat skills pointless, since the only real factor is how much time you want to spend whacking something.
It isn't a design flaw, it's a means of creating balance and just in general used to make a game more interesting by providing multiple different outcomes to situations you're likely to come across multiple times in a playthrough.
>>319588617
should have excluded card games, those always have some degree of luck involved
>>319588552
Counting is simpler and 100% predictable while considering the odds for multiple almost sequential procs required for a kill is much harder.
You will also be rewarded by continuing to push on after you get a proc, you might just get another before it is too late and you get counterattacked to death. Or you don't. With a counter you will know it won't ever work out, simply impossible.
>>319587796
I like RNG it leads to interesting and memorable moments, you always remember those lucky and unlucky moments and it leads to new scenarios to deal with all the time
It's boring just winning all the time or losing all the time. I can understand wanting to reduce RNG in a super serious competition but that's not for me
>>319587730
What's that? An intelligent post? On my /v/? Is it real life? Sacrasm aside, this is kind of true. Well used RNG can be interesting. That said, both of your example are interesting situation to play/
>>319589160
so how much money to do you have to pump into this shit to have a chance against someone that isnt complete garbage
>>319589160
That is poor game testing right there. It's why all these badly made card games have so many banned cards. Because nobody took the time to test them out and figure out if it is overpowered
>>319589494
About $1000
>>319589494
0
play zoo/aggro.
>>319587730
That some Chronos
>>319589537
it's intended
>All these babbies who can't handle sudden changes in their shitty plans
>>319589494
It's a fucking card game you'll always need to spend money to get cards if you to be ahead of the game
>>319589630
Is that why you play in legend?
>>319589745
too bad CK is so shit that it doesnt matter if you crit and 4 sec stun every time
>>319587853
>why is Chess not as popular as CSGO?
There's a life outside of /v/, anon. And that life is full of people knowing chess and totally ignoring whatever the fuck CS:GO is. A live where there's way more chess players than there's CS:GO players.
I know, it's kind of amazing thinking there's people who don't know CS:GO but alas, life's cruel.
>>319586339
It seems pretty accepted tho, desu, fambly
>>319589537
You mean the fact the card can immediately useless with a 5 or less costing card ?
>>319589767
>paying for digital cards you cant even trade
good goy
>>319589745
Because your RNG has no risks other than being less shitty imagine if your ultimate had a chance to do 1-4 illusions and your Q also had the chance of stunning you
>>319590025
Who said that I was playing it in the first place?
>>319586339
Damage ranges improve arts though, they make for more interesting lasthitting
If everyone has fixed damage you'll always get that ck, with ranges the enemy has much more room for counterplay even if his average damage is lower
>>319589745
Lets take some scenarios shall we?
>play flawlessly with team
>destroy enemy team in farming and harass them out of your lane
>teamfights begin and RNG totally favours enemy team, allowing them to completely dominate you with the longest spell effects possible
>maybe have the chance to win the game back only due to the gulf in skill between the two teams
>play flawlessly with team
>destroy enemy team in farming and harass them out of your lane
>teamfights begin and RNG totally favours your team, few of their spells proc leaving their RNG characters useless and you win
DotA2 is a shit game
>>319588114
Yeah the problem is with enough RNG skill stops meaning shit, there's no such thing as "better players" in games like TF2, as long as you walk towards the enemy base and know which button is shoot you're contributing to your victory as much as the best TF2 player in the world.
>>319589968
That person has clearly built the deck with that in mind. Are you stupid?
>>319582601
>WAH EVERYONE DIDN'T IMMEDIATELY AGREE WITH ME B-B-B-B-BACK TO REDDIT
>>319582207
In your game's systems, RNG is a bad substitute for complexity. If players can map out all the possibilities in their head and plan each action with 100% confidence before they act, then your game is either too simple or too slow. Make it more complicated. Make it faster. But of course, those things can be hard to do, while adding RNG mechanics is very easy.
RNG for procedurally-generated content is a bit different. In that regard, it's the difference between a limited number of hand-crafted things and an unlimited number of computer-generated things. While I'd always rather have the well thought-out, well-constructed level made by hand, there's also some value in having an infinite number of mediocre levels to play as well.
>>319590296
Does that mean every time he uses the card he's going to pull the giant? You might as well complain about Explosive Revelation.
>>319589956
No it's not. People think that it's bullshit. Dota 2 for example.
>>319590206
k e k
one 4 sec stun from chaos knight and a multicast from ogre magi will never win you a teamfight. pretty much the only teamfight abilities that can salvage a 99% lost game are black hole and echo slam and shit like that which have no rng at all
git gud
RNG has its place in games where strategy and tactics are the dominant focus over action. You start reading between the lines and find 100% deterministic things to exploit, and execute plans with the mind that at least some things WILL fail, and you need to be ready when they do. This is how you play games like XCom.
In action games, nah. Randomness just dumbs down action games because there's only so much you can do to mitigate it, little to nothing you can plan as a fallback if you do randomly fail, and the randomness holds back players' ability to consistently do awesome shit.
Unless of course, the RNG is designed as something you can react to as it happens. Compare CoD's recoil RNG, kicking the muzzle, to CS's RNG, random bullet spread. In CoD your gun tends to kick in a general direction, this is what you learn and control for. But the direction and amount varies a bit from bullet to bullet so you also have to react to unexpected jerks. Those that can leverage almost perfect accuracy in full auto. In CS the recoil path is fixed, you can learn that part perfectly, but the accuracy is a random cone, degrades really fast, and even the first shots have startlingly high randomness if you actually bother to measure the stats. There's only so much you can do to be accurate even if you line up perfect shots, and you just try to only engage at distances where your probability to fail isn't too bad.
>>319590501
Yeah and there is obvious mitigation for not pulling it
Have you ever played a card game before Hearthstone? It's what the top players do in any game, they build for the best card combos and have plenty of cards inbetween for utility, to help pull those cards or to stall the opponent while they wait for what they need
>>319590626
Remind me again why characters like Void and TA were so broken? Oh right, because their passives are still spell effects
>>319590296
relying on drawing a molten giant from holy wrath is STUPIDLY risky, and i personally have never seen it in a meta deck because decks that tend to put their win condition that heavily on rng tend to suck ass.
>>319589537
It's a gimmicky strategy not actually used in any serious game, if you want big wombocombos there's much more reliable stuff
>>319590931
>void
>TA
>broken
????
>>319582207
You've got to be more specific, man. RNG is generally a good thing. There are specific instances in which it is not.
>>319591056
Key word is 'were'. I know they aren't on the current patch, dummy.
>>319591056
You now realize that most people complaining about Doto rng are beyond bad.
>>319591216
You are now realizing you are stupid and can't read
>>319591168
i never played wc3 dota so i wouldnt know about that shit, but timelock and backtrack havent been changed in ages. also what does TA have to do with RNG?
Getting lucky in games is fun, I love that feeling.
>>319590489
It has it's place because computers are not the Matrix and cannot calculate exactly what will happen. Making a reasonable approximation that fits within tested real life (or desired) values for a scenario makes sense some times.
Muzzle energy on guns tends to vary by about 15 percent one way or the other with modern guns, guns modern and not have a certain amount of spread, etc. The overhead for actually simulating this accurately versus using a rng that produces the same results within a margin of error acceptable for 99 percent of users, well, you see my point.
And some of this stuff is, IRL, basically random insofar as your ability to predict it completely anyway.
Being able to juggle the ODDS and allow for that in your planning and strategy is more in line with real strategy and tactics, and is also simply another sort of game. You can play chess if you want but insisting that all games be like chess and especially ones that purport to model real situations or "games" similar to a military campaign or battle, is silly.
TLDR: you guys are stupid faggots. RL is random, games based somewhat on RL will basically have "random" factors.
>>319590260
Don't play on valve servers.
>>319591124
>RNG is generally a good thing.
>Random drop rates
>Random hits/misses
>Random successes/fails
>Random crits
Nah, not really. It's very rarely used well.
>>319591496
Crits and evade chance. Have you even played this game? At her worst before they toned her down, players could score constant crits and constant evades, while being totally safe in BKB. She's cheap and quick to get going since she drops off, so it became one of those characters you have to focus on constantly killing, while hoping the rest of the enemy team doesn't score an advantage from you constantly removing players from lane to kill her early
>>319591787
>wanting 100% of everything all the time
Why even bother?
>>319590790
And by the same token, RNG in action games randomly rewards sloppy play. In CoD if you miss, you missed. You don't benefit from the favor of RNGesus for lucky headshots. In CS, you might aim to the left of somebody's face, but their head takes up a good fraction of your random bullet cone so you often still have a good change of hitting them.
>>319590790
under rated post
>>319591931
are you talking about PA you faggot
>>319591740
So quake should have random spread because guns in real life do?
>>319584284
>crossups
>rng
You are a bumbling idiot. Just stop.
>>319589745
ck is shit now
>1% chance to 11 times the dmg
ahh good old times
>>319592137
yes he is, also mkb
>>319592349
But muh 'you have to guess left or right'
RNG is good in map generation in Civ or fast paced games like roguelikes and FTL. Dice roll instant kill crits are how you don't do RNG like in modern X-Com.
>>319592894
>and FTL
Does FTL still have those events which are literally just 50/50 "get a small thing" or "lose all your fucking crew"?
>>319590260
>there's no such thing as "better players" in games like TF2, as long as you walk towards the enemy base and know which button is shoot you're contributing to your victory as much as the best TF2 player in the world.
You're an idiot. Just stop.
>>319592776
It's not a guess if you open your eyes and look at the position of the other player. I started playing fighting games midway through this year and the only time I get hit with crossups is when I make an input error.
In other words. Git gud
>>319583462
>he doesn't know that rock wins EVERY time
>>319593065
There are quite a few fighting games where REALLY ambiguous setups are quite common. IIRC Marvel 3 even has some setups where not even the _attacker_ knows which side to block.
>>319593021
Yep, fucking spiders man. But you see those events once or twice and learn they're a big risk.
>>319591740
Real life is not random. Real life just has so many factors going on that you can't possibly account for all of them, and randomness is a poor substitute for this. Having a lot of things going on with a time constraint is what should make things challenging, and the fact that you want RNG to substitute that doesn't mean "oh I can handle random changes," it means you're too dumb to remember a lot of factors under pressure.
The fact that you think something like an FPS with 100% reliable bullet trajectories, or a fighting game with no RNG in any of the moves, is somehow the same as "chess" shows that you're already dumbing down the issue for yourself. Even then, I'd rather have Chess than Chutes and Ladders.
>>319593428
Not him, maybe I'm wrong but isn't there a player making a decision of which side to land on in USF4? If so then it isn't really RNG since a computer isn't making the decision. I think player randomness is fine because it adds to the possibility of mind games and reads which is what fighting games are all about. If that marvel 3 shit is true, then that really sucks.
It depends on what the RNG is for and how it's implemented otherwise. DotA has pretty good random elements, because it's all risk-benefit analysis, and taking risks that depend on unfavorable RNG like Javelins allows for differences in play style. Something like Maple Story where improvement is directly tied to RNG or Fire Emblem where stat bonuses on level up are dependent on RNG is pretty weak and lazy, though.
>>319594358
Keep in mind that the good Fire Emblems are designed so that they're still playable even if you get no statups at all, even though that's totally implausible.
>>319591787
But these are the only things that make X-COM/XCOM even slightly fun.
>>319593428
Marvel also has a shitload of infinites. Not really a balanced game. There's a reason its popularity is dwindling.
>>319593969
Yes. But AE was called vortex fighter 4 for a reason.
>>319582207
rng is just a supplement to skill
>>319582495
>fire emblem is a visual novel
I bet you think halo is a vn. so is mario. so is sonic. so is tetris. yeah. no.the last boss fight in vanquish is a visual novelIt's not, but I would still totally fucking romance the blue one.
>>319587730
>DOTAplayersattempttojustifytheirdeadgame.txt
>>319582801
Yes.
Fuck DMs that leave everything purely down to chance.
