Do you prefer predictable recoil or random as fuck recoil?
Can someone explain me this shit? I get the to axis are cross-hair, and the numbers beneath are frames or maybe the bullet count. But what's with the red line not being the same as the cross-hair?
>>319457290
Its where ypu have to aim to shoot the same place.
>>319456096
Every version of CS has some combination of both, so it's a bit of a shit example to use.
>>319456096
if the game is based in where real world guns exist then recoil should be close to real as possible.
when we get to shit like blasters or high powered squirtguns the game can play around with it but can cause confusion for some people expecting a future rifle to act like a modern one.
both have pros and cons
predictable recoil rewards player skill, but takes away realism.
random recoil has no interaction with player skill, but adds realism.
in my opinion, making recoil predictable sort of goes against the purpose of implementing it in the first place - recoil is supposed to greatly reduce your accuracy when going full auto. if a skilled player can negate the recoil, that purpose isn't achieved, and going full auto is way too strong again.
on the other hand, predictable recoil increases the games skill ceiling.
tough call. i dont play FPS games enough to really come to a proper conclusion on this.
Predicateble recoil is alright. It rewards skill and it adds a metagame where two players fight out to see who has the better spray control.
Random, but immediately readable recoil is the best.
Keeps it from falling into memorized mouse movement patterns, but keeps the RNG from fucking you because you can see where it's going and adjust accordingly.
What a philosophical thread
I like random recoil, it adds a bit of luck but also strategy since you can't spray with a memorized recoil pattern and expect good accuracy.
>>319456096
definitely random as fuck. it's more realistic and I really don't like the idea of having to study spray patterns to git gud
>>319459332
What a bunch of drivel.
>>319459871
Casual.
>>319458710
fuck you mint
>>319459929
it's the definition of artificial difficulty. I'm not playing a memory game, I'm here to BLAST A NIGGA UP
I actually like how cod does it (aside from having too little recoil). Every gun has a loose pattern it will follow but isnt that consistent and you still need to burst at range.
>>319460924
Yeah, I think random recoil with some form of aimpoint that shows where the bullets will be going is a good system. It encourages bursting and using guns designed for your current range, but if you're forced to spray you can actually direct it instead of praying to RNG gods.
If a game doesn't want to do iron sights, I think it'd work to have a typical expanding crosshair but have a dot that floats around inside it showing where the bullet trail is going.
>>319459871
>random recoil is more realistic
You never had a weapon in your hands, haven't you
>>319461752
>real guns pull back with the exact same pattern and timing every single time
>>319461980
For the most part they do. Recoil is due to the physics of launching a projectile using gunpowder and whatever buffer assembly the weapon has, so it's pretty consistent.
>>319461980
If you have a firm grip and a good position when you fire, it's not random. The only way it's random is if your grip is the same as a little 4 years old girl.
Just go and shoot at a target with a rifle and come back
>>319462342
Exactly. Thank you mate. Even if you never had a weapon in your hands you can figure it out. Simple physics.
>>319462342
>>319462497
So you're telling me you could take an AK47, unload an entire mag in full auto, and have the EXACT same pattern of spread and barrel rise every single time you do it?
You're full of shit.
CS's bullet patterns aren't realistic and aren't intended to be, it's just video game magic put in place for "hurr esports" purposes.
>>319463089
The CS pattern has some randomness to it, scrub.
>>319463089
No, you fucking retard. He's saying, on the hands of someone who's shot more than 5 times with an AK-47, the shot patterns will be quite similar.
>>319463089
Yes 15 years ago when they designed how the recoil would work they were thinking hurr esports.
>standing still to shoot
The stwategeees
the crosshair is a representation of where the gun is going to shoot
when you press the button, the bullet should go where the crosshair was pointed
there should not be any "spread"
recoil moving your crosshair is acceptable but unwanted
>>319463264
Wrong. It follows a strict, coded pattern (see OP), with slight inaccuracy per shot along that line. In regards to the pattern, which is what's being discussed, there is no randomness.
>>319463290
>the shot patterns will be quite similar.
"Quite similar," but not always the same?
Way to blatantly move the goalposts and prove yourself wrong.
>>319463312
>Yes 15 years ago when they designed how the recoil would work they were thinking hurr esports.
You mean when they designed the game with random recoil patterns?
>>319463089
Yes that's what I'm saying. The pattern of spread and the barrel rise will be pretty much the same every time.
For someone who has already shot several times with a rifle it's a piece of cake. Recoil and bullets spread are very predictable.
>>319463926
See how the bullets don't all hit the same spot? It's because of inherent randomness. If you wanted the bullets to be perfectly accurate you'd have to slightly modify your spray pattern (of course you cannot know this in advance). Thus, the game DOES have randomness.
>>319463926
>moving the goalposts
Where did they say the patterns would be exactly the same?
>so it's pretty consistent.
>it's not random
If those mean "exactly the same" to you, you're nothing less than retarded.
>>319464054
So you're trying to tell me you've shot full auto entire AK47 mags on multiple occasions, and had the string of bullets always follow the same exact pattern every time?
>>319464190
>Where did they say the patterns would be exactly the same?
Because that's how it works in CSGO, and the discussion is whether CSGO's system or something with an element of randomness like >>319463926 is more realistic.
>>319464289
Are you telling me you haven't?
>>319464116
That picture is from 1.6, you fucking retard. That was in response to >>319463312.
See OP's picture for how CSGO does it
>people seriously saying that a trained soldier can shoot a real semi-automatic rifle more accurately than a professional CS pro can shoot a fake gun
what the shit is this
real guns are way more inaccurate than fake guns because of shit like temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, and wind; it doesn't matter if the "recoil" is the same all the time.
I'm not even saying a pro CS player is somehow better at shooting guns or some shit, it's just that there are infinitely more variables in real life.
>>319463926
Quiet similar like in "if you change slightly your grip or position without knowing" but then again, the paternity will just slithly differ by the direction you grip points. Instead of shooting 12'o clock you'll shoot 12:01 with the same pattern
>>319464551
I was talking about the OP, windowlicker. The bullets in the OP don't all hit the same spot. Go play with rocks.
>>319464289
The bullets will fly the same exact way every time the difference is where recoil and you compensating for said recoil has the barrel pointing. Not counting outside conditions like wind.
It's ok to have predictable recoil but it has to be done RIGHT. CS:GO's recoil isn't done right (what kind of fucking gun has back and forth horizontal recoil?).
Recoil should pull a player's crosshair towards direction of recoil and the bullets should come straight out of the barrel and NEVER AT AN ANGLE. A perfect example of good recoil is Insurgency's recoil.
>>319464645
Nobody in this entire thread has said anything about spread being perfectly consistent, only the recoil patterns. It's not my fault if you don't know how to read.
Go play with rocks.
>>319464912
You said that there was no randomness >>319463926 and now you're trying to backtrack like a coward.
Eat shit.
>>319464289
Yes I did but with a SIG550, the Swiss military rifle.
I do sport shooting since I'm 16 years old and I go every Saturday at the shooting range mate
>>319464625
>>319464758
>>319464054
ITT: people who have never actually fired a full auto assault rifle
making all the variables like the angle you're holding the weapon and how your muscles react to the kick perfectly consistent from shot to shot is logically impossible.
>>319465170
That's where the player's skill comes in. You don't have to artificially vary the spray pattern to accomodate for "real life conditions".
>>319463578
>>319464906
these t.bh
>>319463926
>there is no randomness
That's objectively wrong... There's a console command to remove the rng.
>>319465064
Literally RIGHT fucking there in the post you yourself are quoting it says "t follows a strict, coded pattern (see OP), with slight inaccuracy per shot along that line. In regards to the pattern, which is what's being discussed, there is no randomness." Nobody's arguing that real guns have no spread innacuracy, because variables like temperature and wind exist. It really can't be this hard to actually read the entire context of what's being discussed.
When you don't even try to read the posts you're replying to and blindly spout bullshit pretending you're right anyways, all it does is make you look like even more of an unimaginable retard.
>>319465543
That's spread, not pullback patterns.
Fucking read, holy shit.
i feel like any game that lets you aim down sights shouldnt give you any crosshair for hip firing
bullets should always come out of whichever way the gun is pointing
aka not like CS where bullets can come out at a 45 degree angle
>>319465170
Yes it is possible.
You know some soldier can even shoot perfectly in the center of a target without even aim? If you have shoot some times you can already predict shots without looking at the results. Now suppose you shoot since several years.
>>319456096
It needs to be both, I like the mechanic where your crosshair gets bigger to indicate your shots are less accurate. Therefore ideal recoil should be predictable in that it pushes your crosshair up, and random in the sense that it increases bullet spread.
>>319465789
And is that because the gun always automatically pulls up in the exact same line and he's just pulling back to compensate for it?
>>319465789
Goddamn nigga you're so wrong it's crazy.
>>319464289
You're taking it to a fucking extreme to win your argument anon which pretty much outs you as having no argument.
>>319465930
If you don't change your grip nor change your position the gun always pulls up with the same line. For it to change you'll have to change your grip or position mid-firing.
>>319466216
Someone here haven't got near a clue about real guns and firing. Just go and learn some facts "nigga"
>>319466546
You think someone can reliably bullseye a target without aiming, you fucking idiot. Your opinion on the subject means nothing.
This is the reason I can't get into CS. You have a situation where the bullets aren't hitting anywhere in the crosshair due to unintuitive recoil mechanics.
Considering it's damn near impossible to magdump accurately with in full auto, I'd say you'd best want to mix random spread with having the crosshair pushed up. You can compensate a little bit, but it won't be dead on balls accurate.
>>319466658
Man just go out and learn facts, or stay inside and read some facts, who am I to judge.
There lots and lots records of veteran or professional shooters who can do this
>>319466920
No, no there aren't.
Call of Duty's recoil model is superior.
Hipfire is random as fuck but you might try counting on it for close engagements, or special weapons like akimbo guns or AW's laser with perfect hipfire accuracy.
If you aim, your first shot is perfectly accurate, and you remain perfectly accurate if you exactly control the recoil. Plus players move faster and you can still have perfect accuracy while moving.
Each gun recoils in a different overall direction and to a different degree. The viewkick from bullet to bullet is random to some degree, so you have to react to where you gun is kicking instead of just memorizing the path.
Note that I'm not talking about how any particular CoD game is better than CS, or that there aren't other parts of CoD's design that bring overall depth down (like flinching when hit, or lack of body armor, and so on), just that the shooting model itself is pretty good.
>>319459929
>it's casual to not want to remember how you have to drag your mouse around the screen while mag dumping so you can hit the same 6 inches of space
I grew very tired of how CS worked years ago, I just dislike the gameplay entirely now.
>either dance back and forth trying to plink each other in the face
>or your 15 feet from one another mag dumping while aiming at their feet because lol recoil pattern moves 6 feet above the crosshair
Those are both extreme examples but it's basically why I don't play it anymore, I just hate how it feels..
>>319467117
It's called "point shoot" or "blind shoot", do your research mate.
It's even in the SEALS training
>>319467708
And it's for close quarters combat with a pistol, and it is never recommended when you actually have time to aim like a non-retard. Why you're even talking about that in a discussion about modeling the fire of automatic rifles is beyond me.
>>319466658
PFFFFHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Get a load of this retarded faggot.
You have absolutely NO idea how good some people are at shooting. Acquire a firearm and become proficient before you open your mouth again, moron.
>>319466342
And your grip and position is always magically identical every time you pick up a gun?
>>319468370
It's for close quarters in general with any firearm, and point shooting doesn't mean you just generally point the gun and shoot. Most often you use the front sight only to quickly acquire a target and fire.
Most skilled shooters can attain a certain intuition after years of practice. This makes 'point shooting' easy and accurate at closer ranges.
>>319469089
>he picks up and holds a gun differently every time
what the fuck
that's not how hands/muscle memory works
>>319468927
>>319469417
You point shooting fags are the worst. Again none of this has an relevance in a discussion about controlling automatic fire, and if you think the ability to intuitively place a bullet in the general vicinity of where you want without aiming is in any way a comparable skill to managing automatic rifle recoil you're genuinely retarded.
Vibrating molecules of metal are not going to vibrate in the exact same way every time, each time. The hotter the barrel, the more vibration and movement. Take into account carbon fouling and any other debris in a barrel, as well as the slow, but un-stoppable, EVENTUAL wearing down of a barrel, you're not going to get the exact same results.
Simple physics. There is no perfect FPS module for shooting, and anyone saying that fundamentally, a firearm is going to act the same way each time the trigger is pulled is simply mistaken. I've fallen in love with ARMA's.
>>319468370
It can also be done with a rifle but it's not the point
I brought this up because some people thought it's impossible that the recoil is always the same. My point is: if someone can shoot at the center of a target without aiming why can't you be able to have the same pattern and recoil every time
>>319461573
>but have a dot that floats around inside it showing where the bullet trail is going.
cs:go SORT OF has this
there are tracer rounds
load it up and unload an ak at a wall. watch the tracer rounds and match them to the bullet decals.
>>319469089
When I pick up I roll a d20, if it's 1-5 I hold it sideways like a tru G, 6-10 I turn it upside down, 11-19 I shift it from hand to hand while I crab walk, and 20 I hold it normally.
>>319469089
It's called training and practice
>>319456096
There are 0 games with predictable recoil so it's a bit difficult to know if I'd like it. As it is now I prefer determinism over randomness.
>>319457290
Red line is mouse movement (total) cross-hair is placement (current)
predictable recoil is pretty much memecoil
recould should be random like in real life
>>319469905
Each shot might recoil with the same force, but the point is that automatic fire is way too fast for you to adequately compensate for it, so there should be some randomness in how games model recoil because it's way to easy to just make a motion with your mouse.
>>319469552
>he thinks every time he picks something up his hands will be in the EXACT same position and your handling is incapable of changing and improving over time
what the fuck
that's not how hands/muscle memory works
>>319470030
No amount of training breeds inhuman perfection.
>play csgo
>suck at it
>watch anime
>get worse
>>319470280
Actually that's exactly what muscle memory works. You takes the gun or rifle in the same position every time. Some people who lost their aiming eye can still shoot dead center bullets on a target because of this muscular memory
You'll never get rid of 100% of the human imperfections but you can get close to 98%
>>319469860
First off, no one shoots in full auto outside some support weapon like a SAW. If you're using your rifle as a support weapon you're doing it wrong.
Point shooting is also something that no one uses outside of very close quarters, and my idea of point shooting involves the front sight anyway.
Shooting without a sight picture at all should be for when you're in punching distance of a guy you need to plug and need to do so from a retained stance.
I dunno what we're arguing about anymore..
>>319470559
You've been playing too much Peace Walker, anon
>>319470509
>watch anime
no surprise that you suck
>>319470559
>Actually that's exactly what muscle memory works.
No it isn't. You don't seem to realize how perfect the placement of your hands would have to be every time in order for the gun to kick exactly the same every time, and even if this was possible, other factors such as how stiff your hands might be at the time would nullify it anwyays.
>You'll never get rid of 100% of the human imperfections but you can get close to 98%
And 2% is more than enough to keep >>319456096 from ever being realistic
>>319470691
Wut? I'm talking about reality here mate
>>319470581
You're right let's get things back on track, because I think ultimately we are in agreement.
This thread is about the best way to model recoil in games. Whether or not the spread should be random or predictable. You and I both seem to agree that it is impossible for a normal human to accurately fire a fully-automatic rifle unassisted. Therefore I think that some element of randomness is needed in how games model recoil (or the accuracy of shots in rapid fire) in order to capture this facet of reality.
>>319456096
i prefer not being a drooling retard and going full auto in a game that tries to emulate tacticool shooting
if you ever had problems with recoil in cs it just means that's not a game for you, actually i'm a bit surprised there's still games with casual filters down to the basic mechanics, especially so given it's the to go valve cashcow after they failed to turn dota into another tf2
if you want to empty a full clip hitting the same spot all the time go play call of duty
"Predictable" recoil makes no sense.
>>319470945
And you're making shit up, 'mate'. 98%? Enlighten me in any way shape or form that isn't 'studies show'.
>>319470921
Mate I'm doing shooting contest. I can say that you feel it when your hand is one milimeter from its right position. I can even predict if my bullet touch the center before looking at the screen
the growing acceptance of "random" elements in games is appalling.
>>319471562
Are you shooting entire mags full auto in your shooting contests?
>>319471562
>3rd world english
>spouting shit
These two things go hand-in-hand very well.
>>319471103
>You and I both seem to agree that it is impossible for a normal human to accurately fire a fully-automatic rifle unassisted
Accurately ? It would depend on the distance, but yeah for the most part that's why people fire in single shots even if they have the ability to go full-funmode.
I think Insurgency does a great job with how guns should work. Aimed fire is accurate as hell in single shot, and if you really wanted to, could go full auto.
You might be underestimating the average humans ability to control a firearms recoil. 5.56 has very little felt recoil, and thus is pretty controllable in full-auto (from a stable position).
>>319471751
Not in the competitions but when we are at the shooting range to train we do
>>319471883
Not everyone was born in the USA or Britain you know and I'm pretty sure you couldn't have fluent conversation with me in my own languages
>>319472193
I know, but even with 5.56 still you're not going to be driving nails, so I think that's why the randomness comes into play.
>>319472731
I have no interest in speaking degeneracy.
>>319473552
I shouldn't even bother speaking English then. You seem pretty degenerate yourself
