I don't understand with him. Why does he want to kill hundreds of thousands of people because of an accident? It doesn't make sense. And he blames you for just doing your job. What if another courier had taken it? Would he go after that courier instead? I don't even understand what the fuck he was trying to teach!
THE BEAR THE BEAR THE BEAR THE BEAR
THE BULL THE BULL THE BULL THE BULL
>>318117674
Speaking of bear and bull, I always found it interesting that bears and bulls also make reference to the stock market. Wonder if that was intentional.
DA SUPERB OWL
THE JEWS THE JEWS THE JEWS THE JEWS
Those are the questions I've been asking myself all this time...
>>318118043
I seriously don't get what he is saying. He just talks and talks and never really does anything. He never explains why. He is all "It is your fault, but I feel it is better to destroy thousands of lives just because." No fucking reason given.
>>318117674
BEAR BULL BEAR BULL BEAR BULL BEAR BULL BEAR BULL BEAR BULL
Part of the whole point of Ulysses' character is that you're supposed to decide for yourself whether or not he's BATSHIT INSANE.
Some of his words/actions intentionally don't line up no matter how you try to frame them, and however you handle the situation, you have to do so having accepted that you will never have the full story.
>>318117674
He doesn't want to kill "hundreds of thousands" of people did you read his dialogue at all?
>>318118208
How the fuck does that make any sense? He says its my fault that I destroyed hopeville. How was it my fault? It could have been anyone elses fault, and he would have gone after them too. Whats the point of him even coming after me?
>>318117674
The point is he's just not so fond of some animals.
>>318118280
He wanted to wipe out the NCR and the Legion, just because. "Wiping the slate clean." Like what Elijah wanted. He wanted to begin again, but even Ulysses couldn't let go of the old world.
Let's not sugar coat it, that character didn't make any goddamn sense. And after that DLC being hyped so much by Old World Blues and Dead Money, which say what you want about them they had some pretty nice storytelling and characters, it felt like a huge disappointment.
What you expected was an epic showdown between you and another courier like you, someone with just as much power and with an intrigued character. Something like the final encounter of Planescape: Torment where you meet your own mortality. What was delivered was just some raving tribal with a speech impediment who was gonna blow up the NCR for no real reason and a bunch of bullshit about how you apparently set off a nuke before you started playing the game, which is some poor-ass storytelling.
He was mad as fuck and being a big bitch about what the Courier did, so he just wanted something to take out his anger.
It's completely irrational and you can convince him to admit it.
>>318118679
Well thank fuck for that. He got fucked by the legion, then the NCR and now he holds a grudge and wants to blow up the NCR and the Legion. And he would be doing the same thing that supposedly, you did. Blowing up places just because. I think there is a picture somewhere where its all "I'm gonna blow up the NCR. " "Why?" "Because fuck you, thats why?" How shit was that writing?
>>318118651
Plus fan boys of that DLC will be like "Bennys bullet caused the courier to forget". Thats a fucking stupid excuse and they know it. And on top of that, if the courier sent that to hopeville, then we know more about the couriers past then the game lets on. Ulysesses even says you helped build hopeville. How the fuck did we do that?
He's lashing out against the Courier, the NCR, and the Legion because they're the proximate factors that precipitated the accident. Even if they had no intention to destroy that town, their nature made it possible. He's trying to contextualize the death of Hopeville by latching onto your nature as a courier as the catalyst of conflict and using you to indirectly cause yet another horrible disaster. This legitimizes the Divide and absolves Ulysses of responsibility. In his mind, if you aimlessly wander back to the Divide and accidentally destroy the remaining world it'll make what happened to Hopeville make sense. It'll balance the scales to senselessly inflict pain on others after they've senselessly inflicted so much pain on Ulysses.
It's basically revenge, but it's more about Ulysses grappling with the fact that one person making such small decisions can build or destroy civilizations. And he thinks that if he can use you to destroy the NCR and Legion, that justifies their destruction, both as an ethical argument regarding the NCR and Legion's structural weaknesses, and as a nihilistic argument for the futility of human action in general.
He's a weird guy, but that's what happens when all you know and love is vaporized for basically no reason.
>>318117674
The bull exists to c_ck the bear
>>318119381
So that's the point? Because the courier unknowingly caused the bombs to blow, he gets pissed on? What a crock of shit.
Ulysses is not trying to be deep or anything. He is literally mindbroken because he just can't accept that horrible, world-changing events can just happen without any intended malice or purpose. He tries to find reason behind events where no reason exists, thus he invents conspiracy and tries to find someone to blame it all on.
He sets up everything to fit his world view of individuals being able to have huge impacts on the course of history by forcing you to decide on how the DLC is resolved, to assign an actor to the events he has orchestrated with the planned nukes. The initial nuke you launch was just to be a lesson in unintended consequences, the same thing he blames you for in the Hopeville situation.
At least that's what I got out of it. Its hard to keep things straight with him because hes bug fuck crazy. Plus its been a while.
I feel the DLC would have been better if Ulysses wasn't specifically targeting you. If he just never mentioned anything about Courier Six then we could have it set up to where Ulysses was just luring any courier he could find into The Divide deathtrap in order to get revenge on the boogeyman he created in his fucked up head. Then again, you can tell him that he has the wrong courier and that you never had anything to do with any of it.
>>318117674
everything you love being nuked would probably drive you insane too
>>318121602
>>318119381
So he's just a black version of Alex Jones?
>>318120293
He doesn't have anyone else to blame. And you could have just ignored him and left at any time. What you did you did of your own volition, like it or not. That's what he thinks he's showing you. That life is a zero sum game and there's no moral way to live it. It's random, heartless, and cruel. He wants to make you feel as powerless to your own nature as he feels as a way to convince himself that what he's doing is justified. Because even though he hates you, he also thinks you're the only one who could possibly understand what a tragedy it is to have so much power over others and not even realize it, and how no one deserves to control another's fate.
>>318117674
just imagine you are MC of fallout:nevada, after 40 hours gameplay and finish mainquest suddenly a nuke happened and destroy everything you accomplished. Its meta story
I literally dumped a mag of survivalist rifle jhp into his fucking face before he could even start talking. I had heard enough of his assinine ranting on the radio already, so I massacred him and then nuked the legion.
It was very satisfying and, I feel, thematically appropriate.
PEACE HAS COST YOU YOUR STRENGTH.
VICTORY HAS DEFEATED YOU.
>>318118357
Some people take an extreme view of responsibility. Your actions caused it, he considers you responsible. It's not that hard to understand.
>>318122405
bravo, sir.
>>318122562
So he thinks he is responsible because of what happened? Or is he trying to justify all the death?
>>318122405
>nuking the legion
Caesar did nothing wrong, you assfuck
>>318123057
>Siding with villains less justifiable than the fucking Enclave
Euphoric as fuck.
>>318123126
>Caesar
>Villain
He was like the BoS, except he didn't kill top-tier scientists, only fucking morons who wanted to fuck around with tech they had no idea how to use. (Read : Brotherhood of Steel)
>>318122938
Hopeville got nuked because the courier brought ED-E. Ulysses doesn't care that it was the courier's job, Hopeville getting nuked was still a direct consequence of their actions. That's it.
>>318118651
Yeah I hated Lonesome road. Okay, not hated, because Rocket's Red Glare was fucking baller. But it was a shitty story because you're an amnesiac and most of it was them trying to put answers in your mouth. But it didn't work too well.
>>318123275
That's still getting mad at the gun instead of the shooter.
>>318117674
If I pull that off, will you dir?
>>318123540
No shit. That's what he's doing.
>>318123540
Yeah, got to agree with you on this. Don't shoot the messenger is kind of in play here. He was just doing his job is all.
>>318123540
And what's wrong with that? The founding fathers killed millions of people because of that "right to bear arms" thing. They are responsible for gun proliferation and thus responsible for the deaths of every American killed by gun crime.
>>318123540
Except the gun is sentient and could have done a million things different. Not that I actually expect you to agree, most people are fucking cowards who can't actually accept real responsibility, they're perfectly okay with shit like "But I was just following orders!".FYI while I agree with Ulysses on the responsibility part, I wouldn't actually be angry with the courier if it was me, while the courier was partly responsible, they had a fairly low level of responsibility for what happened.
After the destruction of the Divide, Ulysses saw how a small action of one person can change the lives of many people even if that person is unaware of that. This inspired Ulysses to go around and change things, just like the Courier did by delivering a simple package.
That was his mission, to shape the wasteland by his actions alone just like the Courier did.
He doesn't think that the NCR can lead the wasteland to a good future because of the NCR's expansionism and corruption. He also doesn't think that the Legion can lead the wasteland to a good future because it is a warmonger empire. If it conquers all, if there is no war, it dies.
He also doesn't believe in House because:
"Your future with House has two roads. The road the tribals in Vegas walked... their spirits crushed... or your face on a robot servant, smiling forever in a dead casino. There's future in neither."
"House takes a shovel to history's graves, props up the dead, then puts words in their mouths. The tribes don't even know how they were broken. Not a world I want to be part of, going through motions until we're all smiling faces on some robot's screen."
About the Courier:
"My history isn't revenge, or hate. The road that brought us both here - isn't about that. The message you carried. The one in that package, whether you knew it or not. The message that one can kill a nation. Can kill a symbol. And all that gather beneath its flag. I don't blame you for the Divide. I blame you for what you made me see. Now you will see what you brought to the Mojave, and that will be my message to you."
Quoting his last message:
"My message is this - the destruction that has been wrought, at the Divide - or elsewhere, if you couldn't stop me... It can happen again. It will keep happening. If war doesn't change, men must change, and so must their symbols. Even if it is nothing at all, know what you follow, Courier..."
I really don't understand how so many people don't get what Ulysses is about.
>>318123875
>Except the gun is sentient and could have done a million things different.
Expecting someone with no knowledge of an event to stop and blaming them for failing it is just idiocy.
>>318124005
No one said they expected it.
>>318123875
Following orders is a valid excuse. Most people who think otherwise don't know that your CO can legally shoot you on the spot for disobeying an order.
>>318124213
If you don't expect someone to be able to do something you can't blame them for failing.
>>318124313
While that's true, this isn't even relevant here. The guy wasn't killing jews, he was delivering the mail.
There's no logical or moral reason to "disobey that order".
>>318124432
Yes you can, very easily in fact.
>>318124313
The fact that someone will shoot you if you disobey does not absolve you of making the choice. It may be understandable to many if you decide not to, but you are still responsible for the fact that you considered your life more important than not following an order you consider unjust.
>>318124616
>Yes you can, very easily in fact.
Fair enough, you can. It's still an enormously stupid and irrational if not downright insane thing to do.
>>318124717
Morality is rarely based on logic. I consider it wrong to desecrate corpses, even of animals, but I couldn't think of a single reason why anyone should care except because OTHER people care.
>>318124905
It's not immoral to transport seemingly innocuous goods for money.
>>318124972
Whoa, someone notify the press, I didn't realize we had the font of morality in this thread. Please god tell us some other sweet facts about right and wrong. We've kind of been a mess on this planet without you, before now everyone just kind of had their own ideas, with some being more common than others. Some objective FACTS will definitely make things run more smoothly.
>>318125193
Shut up cunt.
>>318123972
Wonder what he says about you being neutral. I was with the NCR but am going for independence. So I guess in a small way...Ulysseses dream came true.
>>318125193
Don't sperg out just because you're out of arguments.
>>318117674
the divide was the worst fallout dlc in a while.
>>318125454
>out of arguments
>the guy stopped arguing and just laid down divine proclamation that what he believes IS right
Yeah one of us is out of arguments, I think you might have missed the target on who though.
>>318125193
I get what you're trying to say but you're acting like a retard about it.
Ulysses is like a screaming child who blames the nearest person when his favorite toy gets taken away from them
>Sees hopeville as a nation taking its first breaths that could grow into something truly great
>Nope, it gets fucking decimated, Ulysses barely survives
>Realizes how much impact a single person can have on history without them even knowing yet refuses to let go of The Divide
>Learns from the Think Tank that Hopeville could have become what he imagined possible which drives him over the edge
>Sees that The Courier is still alive and lets him handle the Platinum Chip, expecting it to get him killed
>Turns out The Courier survives and becomes one of the biggest and most influential players in The Mojave while Ulysses is still unable to let go and has lost his mind entirely
>Is basically crazy at this point so he just wants The Courier to feel the pain that he might as well have self inflicted
>At the same time wants to test The Couriers convictions and for them to realize the immense power they have in deciding the future of so many places, factions etc. and attempts to nudge the player into Independent by pointing out all the flaws of the NCR, Legion, House, etc.
He's not some fantastic 2deep character or anything but he's pretty good if you actually pay fucking attention and listen to the tapes/off hand info from the other DLC's
Or everyone can just continue spamming BULL AND BEAR since that's apparently all his character is
>>318125631
What's there to argue? Ulysses doesn't blame him for delivering mail. He blames him for the consequences of the delivery, and as I pointed out, blaming someone for something they could not have consciously prevented in any way is simply idiocy.
So as you say, Ulysses CAN blame the courier, but that's pretty much an admission that he's just an idiot.
>>318119381
You put it better than I ever could have, thank you so much, I think about NV's DLC a lot. It seems that there is a lesson being taught in each of them and I'd love to talk to the writers about what they wanted to convey.
>>318125905
They could have consciously prevented it in many ways. Just because there were separate consequences for those actions doesn't mean they weren't options.
>>318126092
>They could have consciously prevented it in many ways.
No they could not. They could have consciously chosen to do something else, but they could never have consciously chosen to prevent something they had no way of knowing about.
>>318122938
He feels he has a responsibility to make the Divide mean something more than a tragic accident. He can't live with the reality that bad things happen to good people because of our aimless actions. It's too terrifying for him that the world doesn't belong to virtue, but the whims of the obstinate, and would see it all returned to nothing than suffer its existence with such a terrible sin as Hopeville.
>>318125823
He's a thought-provoking character, he's just not right in any sense of the word. He's completely fucked in the head and almost everyone he says is completely incorrect in one fashion or another.
>>318126186
>and would see it all returned to nothing than suffer its existence with such a terrible sin as Hopeville.
By being an obstinate doing bad things to good people?
>>318123429
The Courier doesn't have amnesia.
>>318126201
Yeah but that's pretty much the point. They even let you call him out on his shit
>>318126250
Yes exactly. It's a better alternative to him because it happens as a result of him meaning to do it rather than randomly. Babby can't handle absurdity.
>>318124616
>The fact that someone will shoot you if you disobey does not absolve you of making the choice.
It does, actually. Murder charges are downgraded to manslaughter charges if the killing was done under "circumstances that would drive any reasonable citizen to homicide". Such circumstances include the recent discovery of infidelity, self defense (in situations were excessive force was used) and when the motive of protecting another citizen's life is in play.
>>318126250
After listening to him, I feel like an independent Vegas is better. NCR is stretched thin, Legion will fizzle out, and House is a ghost of a bygone era that needs to die. The brains of big mt could help rebuild over time, but house needed to die. The symbol for anarchy, an old world symbol, would be the flag that the courier would plant. And new Vegas, I think, would benefit for the better.
>>318125823
>>s basically crazy at this point
This is why people dislike the character. He's similar to Eleanor Lamb in Bioshock 2. A constantly talking, annoying and insane presence who reminds you it's all your fault every 5 goddamn minutes. It's irritating as fuck. and you have no choice but to be subjected by his long nonsensical rants and bear and bull slogan until you reach the end.
>Wandering around the Divide
>This is great I'm having a terrific time exploring
>COURIER I WANT TO TALK TO YOU AGAIN
>>318125823
All his character is is a pissed off babyman who is mad at the Courier for being a FUCKING PROFESSIONAL WHEN IT COMES TO DELIVERING PACKAGES BECAUSE HE DOESN'T OPEN EVERYTHING HE'S TASKED TO DELIVER
>>318117674
The point is that hes wrong and stupid as fuck so no matter what your alignments or views are you wont want to side with him or agree with him
>>318123972
>"My message is this - the destruction that has been wrought, at the Divide - or elsewhere, if you couldn't stop me... It can happen again.
>My message is that shit can blow up
Gee thanks Ulysses, I never would have guessed.
>>318126536
>the retard response
Men smarter than you wrote this character, if you don't understand then fine but don't embarrass yourself by saying stupid dismissive shit
>>318126670
At least you can point out how wrong and stupid he is and he goes
>Oh fuck I was wrong and stupid
and stops fighting you.
>>318126846
They gave him 10 in every special and max charisma when he's irritating as shit.
Said men were not that smart.
>>318117674
he's a big guy
>>318126515
Think you meant Sofia, Eleanor was daughterfu.
But yeah he got annoying after awhile. Especially on repeat playthroughs, when he's not nearly as interesting to talk to.
Op here. Just think of this. The courier could use Big mt to rebuild the old world if you run an independent Vegas. Get the brains to come up with ways to kill the mutated animals, like cazadores, radscorpions, nightstalkers, and such. Maybe even make a large scale water purifier to help out in the Mohave and use the breeder machine to help spread plants, thought not like vault 22. And in a way, it would allow a new world to begin.
>>318126846
>the fedora response
He's a poorly written character that borders on being a complete joke.
>>318126846
the same smart men that signed the 85 metacritic deal with Bethesda?
>>318127220
Just because you refuse to read what others have wrote in this thread or payed any attention in the DLC doesn't make him poorly written.
>>318126250
He'd probably just say that proves his point and that he's just as tainted as the rest of humanity. He's elevated Hopeville so much that he thinks its destruction is an unforgivable sin of humanity. He's basically Roschach without the pretense of justice. He's a misanthrope who hates everyone, including himself, and feels like he has no power to stop himself from acting according to his nature.
He's angry that shit sometimes just happens. That's why he's so committed to the idea of having purpose in your actions and having conviction, shit, that's exactly one of ways you can convince him to stop his tantrum. If you convince him that if one man can make such a huge negative impact by accident, then they can make a bigger positive impact with actual commitment to a cause.
>>318123829
Are you actually retarded?
>>318121602
>>318119381
See this is why I like New Vegas so much, it's got so much depth and multiple angles I'm still able to re-play and talk about it 5 years after it was released
>>318123245
Why does everyone seem to completely ignore that the legion is nothing more than a giant slaver cartel? Who gives a shit what Caesar's motives were?
>>318128206
Because they can't admit that Obdidian wrote a shitty villainous faction and tried to pretend it was morally grey just because no one who complains lives to talk about it and the few merchants that weren't killed for dissent find the roads relatively safe.
>>318127354
But people have already pointed out he's an interesting character, that doesn't mean he isn't completely dead fucking wrong. He's a moron, it's understandable yes, but still a moron
Furthermore the player being amnesiac is shit writing through and through
Everything makes sense it's just that the faggot is cryptic as fuck. But he does make sense.
See, Ullyses is pissed at you because of Factions. He sees them as ideologues given power and with too much power to do whatever the fuck they want. You, unknownly, brought a package to his home town and the NCR came and destroyed it.
So he's got a huge grudge towards you but it's directed at factions themselves. He doesn't see groups like the NCR or Legion become big because of ideologies because there's nothing people or town can do to stop them. His solutions to ideologue factions from forming is to let small communities fend for themselves like Goodsprings and to connect them using Couriers. Everyone will be isolated, no one will kill others but everyone will be connected.
He wants to destroy the NCR and Legion, by destroying their supply line, so that they will be forced to dissolve into smaller communities and one of the endings suggests that the plan worked.
Basically, it's just a way for Obsidian to destroy the NCR and to destroy and reset everything. Oh and that ending is canon.
>>318118357
It's not your fault, he's just REAAALLY pissy and needs someone to vent his bullshit.
He follows you around in the game but doesn't kill you. He wants you to agree with him.
>>318128376
People have already pointed out that he doesn't blame you personally for what happened to the Divide too, just for the knowledge that one person can wield the power to destroy nations. This whole persecution complex people have with him is fucking bizarre.
>>318121602
I don't think it would have worked if he targetted you. Although he obviously blames you constantly for all the shit that happened to his village, I never felt that he said that all of this shit that happened was directly your fault, only that you had a part in it and that, since you're in front of him, he can actually bitch his frustrations at you. He knows killing you won't bring his village back but he wants to destroy the NCR and Legion so that what happened to his village never happens again.
>>318128376
Where does it imply that the Courier is amnesiac about Hopesville?
The Divide is either a place where he just passed through a couple times on a job, or a place where he legitimately never went to depending on the dialogue choices you pick
Either way it makes sense that he wouldn't remember it at all
>>318128960
>communities grow
>resources become scarce
>some communities agree to consolidate to increase their odds
>others try to keep to themselves
>the communities that can defend their stakes on resources either fight back and die or are assimilated into a greater whole
>another nation is born
So, what, is there no point in any of these games if humanity is reduced to subsistence-level faggots every century or so?
>>318129763
Dude, Couriers fix everything brah, don't think about it.
>>318117674
His goals have nothing to do with you specifically, he just thinks the major factions of the Mojave are destined to fail so he's trying to make room for new societies by destroying them. He involves the courier in his plan because he sees you as both a danger to everyone and living proof that a single person can make or break nations. He was hoping that by following him into the divide you would either die as payback for destroying it, or learn a lesson about doing things without considering the consequences.
You walked halfway into the ninth circle of kingdom fuck and accidentally launched a nuke just so you could talk to him, and he basically calls you out on that sort of behavior.
>hey man you think we should do some facial animation for the 15 minute long pivotal conversation to end the game
>nah just put a dust mask over his mouth no one will notice
>>318129841
Fuck, I would accept something like a freak occurrence caused the Cloud from the Sierra Madre to expand and sweep over major pockets of civilization as an excuse to reduce advancement, not a wilfull abandonment of progress just because they've written themselves into a corner.
>>318130357
If you stop and think about it, Elijah did have a point. If he hadn't been a nutcase, he might have created a new world without even using the cloud. The weapons, ghost people, holograms, even the vending machines could be used.
what a kek
>>318130357
Meh, I think you're right and nations will inevitably grow. War never changes and progress is always stained by large amounts of bloodshed. Ulysses destroying the NCR and Legion simply shakes things up. Even if the NCR destroys the Legion, a revolution would have inevitably happened. More blood would have been spilled.
Society collapsed and humanity is simply struggling to find its bearings again.
>>318126846
Being smarter than someone else doesn't mean everyone thing you did was good. Is the writing of a retard god tier simply because there's someone stupider than them out there?
>>318122416
hehe
>>318130297
To be fair, gamebryo is hardly a good enough engine to make a good memorable face for a character
