Why is the Smash 4 team so bad at balancing?
its a party game, for parties
>>318112571
they're about as good as the other games' teams
What's wrong with Greninja?
Every team who has ever had to balance any game ever since the beginning of time is bad at balancing, so says the people playing those games.
Welcome to video games.
>>318112571
It's impossible to balance that many characters for all of the matchups on all of the stages. Not even taking into account loadouts.
>>318113214
>its impossible
>other people have done bigger teams on more complex games
>sometimes even on actual competitive fighting games
>>318112571
The Smash 4 team is bad at balancing?BETTER NERF GRENINJA
>>318112571
out of all smashes, 4 is the most balanced one and is very good at that, what the fuck are you talking about? Have you ever made a game?
>>318112957
I ask that every time I play him.
Smash 4 arguably has the most viable characters of any Smash game. That said, there are always going to be shitty ones, sad but inevitable.
>>318113038
It'd be a different story if the person balancing the game was good at applied math and spent as much time as an average player playing the game.
>>318112571
Greninja is fine
He just gets bodied hard by Shiek
>>318114559
Sakurai has a team of people who's job is straight up to be good at the game and give him feedback
Which is probably why Smash 4 has one of the most overall viable low tiers I've ever seen, after maybe Soul Calibur V
>>318113687
Reddit ni modotte kudasai
Arigato desu senpai
>>318114517
Bait so obvious, no one fell for it
>>318114694
I wouldn't know since I don't play smash; my comment was just in regards to just about every game out there that isn't a fighter.
>>318114694
>Sakurai has a team of people who's job is straight up to be good at the game and give him feedback
Which is why he was convinced Samus was the best character in the game right?
Everyone who says the game is unbalanced should git gud
>>318114964
Was, as in, before the game's release. No one but the dev team actually knows if Samus was overpowered or not pre-launch.
>>318114791
Smash 64 is not balanced.
>>318115194
Wasn't samus supposed to be super powerful during the e3 tournament?
>>318115194
This. I remember a demo video that showed Megaman's down-smash doing 40%.
>>318112571
Everyone competent at Capcom was busy focusing on Street Fighter V, and Sakurai can't make a decent sequel on his own.
>>318115194
Sakurai said she was the best in the game as of the E3 build, and all the players there agreed she was hot garbage. So their feedback was clearly unreliable, who's to say it's reliable now? Unless you're just pulling shit out of your ass, please give your source on this team.
>>318115073
Yeah bro Sheik totally doesn't invalidate 70% of the roster with FAir strings and needle fuckery.
>>318113038
Bullshit. Street Fighter 4 found a fantastic balance. It had 2. possibly 3 "broken" characters that were re-balanced and re-worked several times until they were acceptable.
Smash 4 is frustrating because all it needs is a nerf to Sheik's absurd Melee-tier frame data and other minor tweaks for other characters, yet whoever is in charge refuses to do so and has refused to do so for several patches now. A list of weird shit that hasn't changed:
>Some character- not all of them- get to have invincibility frames on their up smashes because... reasons?
>Some characters like ZSS can combo into a kill from infinite up airs because....?????
>Some characters can confirm kills from their grabs, like DK's ding dong combo that can kill at like 70%, yet Falcon - arguably Smash's mascot, can't combo into his strongest aerial (knee) in a reliable non-gimmicky way
>Some characters have auto-combos and some don't
>Some heavy characters have combos, some don't; why can Ike confirm shit from a n-air into crazy shit and why can't Bowser, who is arguably the most iconic villain of Nintendo, gets jack shit?
>Why is Mario a braindead moron that up tilts you for like 50%? Being the face of Nintendo isn't a good excuse, though as understandable as it may be
>Sheik. All of Sheik. Sakurai has a thing for ninja girls or reverse-traps
I can go on. The balance is overall alright for a Smash game, but the choices are just fucking weird. And to the anon that asked why Sakurai said his team thought Samus was amazing, she probably was before the game was released and had whatever build they had in their office.
>>318112571
But the game is balance right now and getting better with each patch.
>>318115803
>yet Falcon - arguably Smash's mascot
stopped reading right there
>>318115602
Yeah because anyone know who's good on day 1 after a few minutes of practice
>>318115653
She legitimately doesn't
She has positive matchups with most of them but that's far from invalidating
>>318115803
Let's not forget Ness back throw kills at like 60 percent against some characters.
Mac, I wish you still had your slightly better recovery. You could be B+ tier with that recovery back. That's plenty viable for me. I'll still use either way.
>>318115803
>>Some character- not all of them- get to have invincibility frames on their up smashes because... reasons?
So they can be used to challenge shit
>>Some characters like ZSS can combo into a kill from infinite up airs because....?????
Because landing a 16 frame startup 70+ frame total grab isn't easy
>>Some characters can confirm kills from their grabs, like DK's ding dong combo that can kill at like 70%, yet Falcon - arguably Smash's mascot, can't combo into his strongest aerial (knee) in a reliable non-gimmicky way
Because Falcon's neutral is better and is WAY, WAY, WAY better at getting grabs. Hell, he's all over a better character than DK, and that's coming from a DK secondary.
>>Some characters have auto-combos and some don't
So?
>>Some heavy characters have combos, some don't; why can Ike confirm shit from a n-air into crazy shit and why can't Bowser, who is arguably the most iconic villain of Nintendo, gets jack shit?
Bowser is heavier and has a 19% 9 frame bair, plus tough guy
>>Why is Mario a braindead moron that up tilts you for like 50%? Being the face of Nintendo isn't a good excuse, though as understandable as it may be
DI up and towards his back, then jump out, scrub, he only gets 20 something%
>>Sheik. All of Sheik. Sakurai has a thing for ninja girls or reverse-traps
Sheik is the best but not even that bad, she doesn't close out stocks well, is combo food for some characters (DK), and the fair string do about as much or less than combos other characters have.
Sure, some characters end up better than others, but you sound like you're arguing for a completely homogenized cast.
>>318112571
Because Namco
>>318112957
they removed everything that made him complex, like shadow sneak canceling.
he had a high skill ceiling in early patches and a toolkit that could absolutely destroy sheiks/diddys, but hackurai removed everything good about it and then nerfed him to shit as a fuck you to the players.
>>318117190
>character has positive matchups against literally everyone else in the game barring 1 or 2 equally powerful characters
>"sh-she's balanced"
le
Why can't Marth be good? He's so bad in 4
>>318117867
Did I say that?
I sure as fuck didn't
I said she doesn't invalidate 70% of the cast
>>318117582
someone who actually plays the game, thank you. smash 4 balance is probably only beat by Project M and I don't know enough about the 3.6 to verify that entirely. if they nerf shiek a bit and continue buffing the low and garbage tiers things will keep getting better. balance patches have already generally been good. they need to buff the puff though holy shit
>>318112571
Damn, I remember in the 3DS days I played as Greninja because I love Pokemon Y and he was my starter
>Be me
>Got the game at launch
>Picks Greninja, wanted to play him because of said reasons and the trailer is kickass
>Played with my friends
>They play Bowser and Little Mac
>HYDRO PUMP HERE
>UP SMASH THERE
>SHURIKEN EVERYWHERE
>They got pissed
>They said I was a fag for picking someone powerful
>"But I just like Greninja....."
>FIRST PATCH THE 3 GOT NERFED
>They moved on to Robin and DeDeDe
>I stuck with my frog nigga and still kicked their ass
>They still bitch, especially the DeDeDe player
>mfw
Character Dedication feels so fucking Great
>>318117989
Having an easy fucking matchup against the majority of the other characters means you've got a greater incentive to pick her, dummy. If there's an objectively stronger option, and a lot of people choose it, that's called "invalidation."
>>318115653
Rosalina invalidates far more characters than Sheik does.
>>318118086
Oh I see, you're not really involved in the competitive community? That's cool.
"Invalidate" is a term that's generally used to describe the situation when a character's advantage over another is so strong that it's hopeless, not like the 45-55s that Sheik has over the top half of the cast. Generally if you see the term used, we're talking Brawl DDD vs. DK matchups.
>>318118142
>tfw Rosalina without Luma is still better than Mewtwo and Samus and can hold her own against most projectile-dependent characters
>>318117989
but yet i bet you were one of the fags crying about diddy and his broken "hoo has".
honestly, even as someone who loves sheik in 4, there's a problem when she's the only character that can match up to most of the roster.
>>318118017
If they touch Sheik they'll need to bump ZSS too
Then again I guess she already has bad matchups, maybe it would be fine
>>318118315
>but yet i bet you were one of the fags crying about diddy and his broken "hoo has".
You what nigger
I'm not following your train of thought here, from what I posted to this.
>>318118017
No. Stop nerfing characters, just buff Sheik and ultrabuff everything else. Add some more shield stun + recovery time and we are set
>>318118293
>hit Rosalina
>have to watch your back for that faggy star smacking you on it's way by
>can protect her when she's in a buried state from shit like DK's side B
>kills at absurdly low percents on Uair
>can control like half the stage between it and Rosalina just mashing on jab
Nothing in this game makes me saltier than fucking Rosalina. I'd rather fight a dozen Sheiks or runaway Sonics than this stupid fucking character.
>>318112571
Because it is not a fighting game. It is a fist fest anything goes and there is too much people playing it wrong.
>>318112571
I agree with you OP
>>318118560
I disagree with this entirely
Mid tier is all so fucking close to each other any balance changes should really be trying to move everyone towards the pack
Just slapping buffs on everyone ends up unpredictable and the balance could be worse off in the end.
I still don't get why Palutena is bottom-tier when "Sakurai bias" is a thing.
>>318118824
because Sakurai knows nothing about balancing, which is why he just focused on giving her a really unique gimmick
>>318118721
Are you implying Yoshi is bad because holy fuck m8
>>318118951
No he is not bad, he is practically untouched and keeps getting buffs
Greninja needed nerfs. Without them he slaughtered 70% of the cast effortlessly.
Kinfda bullshit they nerfed him while leaving all other characters that did the same alone or giving them slaps on the wrists.
>>318118824
Because Sakurai bias isn't a thing
See Melee Kirby
She was also sort of designed around customs, which make her high tier, and she can't use them
Her default set of specials is so shit
Warp is good. AR is tolerable. Reflect is situational as fuck. Counter is useless.
>>318112571
He seems to fuck people up in the right hands from my experience.
>>318115803
>Sakurai has a thing for reverse traps
Thank you I needed a genuine giggle
>>318112571
Sakurai has never been able to balance, just look at Pikachu and Kirby in 64.
>>318115803
>nerf to Sheik's absurd Melee-tier frame data
No because then every character would be sluggish and boring to play instead of just 99% of them.
Raise everyone elses frame data and adjust properties accordingly.
>>318118721
It's like Amsa has taught you nothing.
>>318119461
Smash 4 not Melee
>>318118824
She was all about custom moves but nobody uses custom moves.
>>318118940
a really unique gimmick she can't even use anywhere that isn't tournament mode thus forcing her into bottom tier
she wouldn't be bad if she could use super speed/lightweight/jump glide
>>318119556
>>318119461
even in Melee Yoshi is shitty
>>318119420
I already mentioned this but buffing every character would have unpredictable as fuck results. Much better to move everyone towards the middle since mid-tier is already so fucking huge in this game
>>318119741
Lightweight alone removes her biggest obstacle, which is being unable to kill safely/reliably
>>318119930
i'd say her biggest obstacle is her poor frame data. and while customs don't exactly change that i think they atleast justify it. with all those customs i mentioned palutena is basically zipping and flying around the stage so they needed some way for people to catch up with her.
it's why fighting someone like sonic is like trying to pull teeth out. he has a ridiculous amount of mobility and is almost completely unpunishable.
He ain't the best but goddamn is he fun.
>>318112645
absolutely this. when will you stupid niggers learn that this game is a fucking party game not meant to be taking seriously. its supposed to be over the fucking top chaotic bullshit.
>>318120110
I disagree. I'm a Palu main, and I have some minor results for what it's worth, and while her frame data is pretty bad and that makes her suck in CQC, her neutral isn't really all that bad and her damage output isn't really all that bad. Her aerials mostly have good data (uair has too much fucking lag though, and dair having a tiny hitbox for one frame kinda sucks) and the really bad frames are on her smashes (Dsmash is as close to a useless fucking move as I've ever seen outside of her ftilt), which she needs for killing if she can't get a nair gimp or uair airdodge read.
She's already hella mobile, something like 11th best runspeed in the game
Lightweight gives her kill confirms at 50-70 and then again at like 90+
Superspeed gives her good kill confirms too but not as powerful or easy to land.
I mean, lightweight doesn't stop her from having useless smashes and ftilt, but if she has that she doesn't really need those moves to function.
I'm not knowledgeable on Smash but I like Shulk. Experienced players, how good/shitty is he
>>318120230
His gimp potential is very strong.
and his Fsmash is crazy powerful.
>>318120703
He's one of the biggest examples of "hes as good as the person using him".
and you're reasoning for posting greninja? he's one of the most balanced characters
>>318120703
Perfectly balanced, just like Pit
>>318120703
He's fairly shitty. He has awful, awful frame data. It's somewhat mitigated by MALLC but lel no one can actually perform that consistently.
Not one of the worst in the game but definitely below the mid-tier pack.
>>318120890
He's jealous that Greninja isn't as good as ZSS or Sheik, obviously.
>>318119840
>unpredictable as fuck results
Fuck are you talking about? It's numbers in a computer, that's as predictable as it gets.
>>318121257
Are you intentionally acting dumb?
>>318121542
I accept your concession.
>>318121257
>balance changes to a competitive game are incredibly predictable
You're fucking retarded.
>inb4smashisntcompetitive
>>318120828
Who are other good examples?is Mac?
Why do they give out nerfs like fuckin birthday cards? How are you supposed to main a character when they just nerf them a few months later?
>>318121815
it isnt
>>318117972
>marth is bad meme
>when he has some of the best stats in 4
>stuff like his jab free connects to fsmash at 880, as in death %
Getting real sick of former high tier bitching.
>>318121869
Most mid tiers like Roy and Pit.
>>318121869
I suppose Mac too. And Marth.
>>318120230
the fuck? since when PM Falco got in Smash 4?
>>318121941
if your character is the one always getting nerfed, then maybe the basis of your entire strategy is to find the most overpowered, least skill requiring character and just abuse it?
>>318121815
Yeah, they are.
Balance the game, it becomes balanced.
>>318121869
Mac is pretty brain dead. God damn he is annoying to fight if you have short range though, I'm pretty sure Mac beats Ness for one
>>318120230
dat ain't f4lco
>>318122069
I use Roy, so that's good.
>>318122072
Mac is my favorite. He's pure fighting spirit. He's a 10-0 match up against the entire cast as long as he doesn't get hit.
>>318113629
Top fucking kek
>>318121998
>Disjointed Neutral Jab that can cover his front and puts any who get hit with it in a bad position.
I really miss is old shield break stats though, but I see why it was nerfed.
>>318122170
If you're losing to Mac with Ness you might be retarded. You sound like someone who just got blasted by a Mac within the past 15 minutes.
>>318115653
I actually am not afraid of Sheik as much as ZSS. Sheik at least doesn't have two 3 moves that trap you to be followed up on by a move capable of killing at 60%. People say her grab is bad, but it has a ton of active frames, goes about half the length of FD when used off of a dash and half her aerial toolkit (which is basically lagless, btw) confirms into it. Her down b has intangibility frames on start-up for whatever reason, she can choose to land laglessly with it or do an attack that meteors with enough force to kill any character at 30% AND she can confirm into it. Not just that, but just touching a grounded character while in her down b causes them to get buried without her inputting single button, AND it's 100% safe on shield. And let's not even start talking about her down smash.
>>318122170
I don't know what I'm doing wrong with him. People always seem to call him brain dead, but in tournaments I just can't seem to make progress.
>>318122138
the best characters in the game always require the highest level of skill weather you can recognize it or not
>>318122170
I main Ness, and can tell you that if you think Ness loses to Mac, or is less brain dead than Mac you are dumb.
Mac has lots of room for advanced movement shit, and the better you get at that, the more demanding his requirements in fundamentals are.
Ness is pretty fucking forgiving in both fundamentals and tech. And he continues to be as you git gud with him.
Ness shits on mac for having some of the best ways to get him offstage in the game between Nair, Dthrow strings, And Fthrow/Bthrow. PKT rapes any chance he has at making it back
>>318122631
>>318122568
People tend to not be talking about tournament entrants when it comes to brain dead mac players.
>>318122735
Lmao I've killed Macs from 0% by just f-throwing them, reading their recovery, and clipping them with the tail of PK thunder.
>>318122814
Why would we even talk about online players? I just use online to practice random stuff on humans.
>>318122814
Tourney macs are scary as fuck, not gonna lie. In my region we have a mac that consistently gets top 3 against a slew of sheiks, nesses, and villagers.
Funny thing is I actually 2-0'd him once with Lucas... but that's beside the point.
>>318122631
Wow
>>318122631
Legitimately untrue
Top-level Shulk is harder to play than any character in the game, Mario is one of the easiest to play
>>318122631
Next balance patch adds L canceling which makes the game more offensive and combo heavy
how would you feel?
>>318122631
Skill Floor/Ceiling is completely unrelated to tier placement. Is Melee the only game you've ever played?
>>318122631
like what?
>>318122996
He requires some of the best neutral game in the entire roster and footsies are a necessary skill to play him legitimately. Timing, spacing, and match up knowledge are all musts as well. He's an absolute beast in the right hands and could be top tier with some more recovery and an adjustment to his frame data on block.
I love good Mac players because you know they put a bunch of work into their character.
>mfw Mac gets a solid read and armors through my attack
>>318123209
>Villager with L Cancelling
>ZSS with Nair into grab on shield being a true confirm all the time
>Ryu with shield break combos off of aerials
I dunno about this
>>318123209
That's not even how L canceling works
L canceling is also the most retarded techskill check in any game I've ever taken seriously
Just reduce landing lag ffs
>>318123209
I'd honestly just rather them reduce landing lag for everyone. Then adjust block frames for the majority of the cast.
>add grab teching and watch the meta change overnight.
>>318122853
Exactly, ness is braindead as fuck, you don't need to be good to be beat a mac with him.
>>318123428
villager with L cancel wouldn't be that bad since everyone else gets L cancel
not true
might happen, might
>>318123209
Thank fucking god. Yeah it helps high tier characters slightly, but it helps low tier characters that suffer from laggy aerial games a lot more (Zelda, Samus, Shulk, etc.) Most of the high tier characters are actually already almost lagless in the air, so it's not like it's some amazing buff for them, but characters like Lucas, Lucario, Marth/Lucina can actually use their aerial games better to space and confirm
can we talk about why theres no momentum in Smash 4?
imagine if sakurai added that in the next balance patch
that'd be mad hype
>>318123865
Intuitive gameplay is anti-fun anon.
>>318123865
People keep saying this, but it's not actually true. You do retain some momentum when you jump, it's why Uthrow -> thunder requires tech
>>318123865
mfw
>>318124060
well then they should add a bit more momentum
>>318123209
>>318123865
Just go play melee/PM
>dtilt into KO punch
>>318124060
No, it's just that when you jump while moving, you're buffering forward jump from the first possible frame, which lets you start moving while jumping as early as possible.
>>318124152
but i like smash 4 and want it to be better
>>318124152
I would but I have nobody to play with
>>318124152
I don't care about crazy skill ceilings, I just want to have fun.
>>318122735
Pk thunder does shit to ledge guard mac unless you stage spike him or something. Dthrow knocks him high as well. Fthrow does as well. Really Ness' best tool for ledge guarding Mac comes from dsmash, it eats his uspecial and side special and knocks him low
I base my knowledge of the match from tourney exp. Now it is funny cause for the one good Mac I play we usually have one of two things happen, I 3 stock his ass hard and quick or he beats me barely or something. I will admit that chances are Ness does have the plus but it isn't like Mac has nothing.
The thing is Mac can easy gimp Ness as well. Dsmash knocks Ness low and is very good at hitting the opening on an 1st ledge grab. Mac is faster and stuff like ftilt and dtilt are actually annoying for Ness to work around. Ness can't get a grab if Mac keeps punching at him.
>>318124174
>jab-canceling into Shoryuken
>>318124314Smash 4 skill cieling is higher than melee's, melee just has a much much higher skill floor Smash 4's hardest tech isn't even used by top players because it's hard as hell to get shit like the needle cancels/frame cancels/lagless ledge getup consistantly. Only a handful of players even use perfect pivot despite the fact that it's not as hard as any of the above and gives certain characters nutty combos
>>318124427
>stage spike with ZSS down b
>>318124568
nobody learns those tech because they are unnecessary as fuck to learn or very situational and not worth it
>hyped for Cloud
>genuinely do not enjoy playing this game at all
am i retarded?
>>318124568
The thing about Smash 4 is, if you got all that crazy fidget-cancel/MALLC garage down, it still wouldn't help much. The meta would still revolve around grab combos and footstooling. Sheik would dominate, Shulk would be dominated, ect.
>>318124839
No, I'm in the same boat. Mac is the only thing keeping me mildly interested. Cloud looks fun and I'll play it seriously again if he is decent. Is he going to have his Japanese voice?
>>318124839
No, Link vs Cloud is a popular match
Mario vs Sonic
Megaman vs. Samus
Ness vs. Mewtwo
>>318124804
I disagree with some, particularly lagless ledge getup. It's just a straight better version of standard getup, and frame cancels, which give certain characters fucking crazy damage combos and kill confirms.
>>318124880
It definately helps less than melee basic tech but I wouldn't really factor that into skill ceiling. It's still harder to play Smash 4 at the absolute top theoretical level than it is melee
Shulk would still be not great with perfect MALLC but he'd sure a shit move up the list.
>>318125028
...maybe? well find out in less than a month, unless the special direct is seriously going to happen after christmas but i never count out nintendo's potential for weird decisions
was hoping for a game that was a little more than [Brawl HD + massive emphasis on bells-and-whistles novelty], but im a sucker for these title belt guest characters like ryu and cloud
ill get my solid ~week of fun out of them with friends before its back onto the shelf for months
>>318125028
Probably, I doubt they'd have used it in the NA trailer if they weren't.
>>318125164
The lack of invincibility on the lagless get up really hurts it.
>>318125164
>lagless ledge getup
>literally no invincibility frames and leaves you open
nah its shit
>>318125302
I just want him to say Limits are meant to be broken in Japanese. Shit was so cash.
Captain Falcon's Dash Grab is retarded.
>>318125352
>>318125304
I guess there's that but you're doing it from invincibility on the ledge and you can act a handful of frames later
if you treat the ledge invincibility as the startup invincibility there's a smaller window of vulnerability than normal getup
>>318113038
PMDT is good at balancing. Definitely a big net positive from older versions.
>>318125419
Kek, his standing grab is so shit he need it.
what's the reason for these bread and butter, fish-for-grabs combos? like inescapable down throw to up airs that i hear a lot?
did they fuck with DI and smash DI? or both? melee had it's sampling of free grab combos like that but they didnt define the game to sm4sh's extent
>>318113038
You clearly don't know icefrog and the legendary 6.85 patch we're currently playing.
>>318125561
where did they learn to balance well?
>>318125948
They play the game and actually care about game balance.
Reminder that Nintendo added tripping to Brawl and are shit at literally everything competitive. Yes, even Splatoon.
>>318125419
Facts
>>318125948
Playing video games.
when will the "only buffz!" Meme end?
Smash 4 is very well balanced and most characters ARE buffed in patches. If yours gets nerfed it's for flavor or they had some sort of domineering repetitive tactic like Luigi. Now fuck off with these threads.
>>318126029
I want to say competitive pokemon is handled with some level of care but then I remember that all official tournaments are double battles for some retarded reason
>>318126029
playing the game doesn't make you good at balancing a game
I bet M2K wouldn't do a very good job at balancing Melee
>>318125794
They did fuck with both, yes. The reason grab combos are so prominent is because Smash 4's hitboxes are really awkward and starting combos from grabs is a lot easier and more consistent than starting them from say, a falling aerial.
Plus shields are very strong and grabs beat out shields, obviously.
>>318126076
smash 4 balance is ok
i wouldn't say its very well balanced
only like 15 characters can win a major and im being generous
>>318126076
>Smash 4 is very well balanced
Stopped reading right there
>>318122631
Melee Fox? Absolutely. To the point it destroys your fingers.
Smash 4 Sheik? Fuck no.
>>318126216
Shields were greatly weakened in patch 1.1.0
BUFF LUCARIO!
>>318126258
That's not at all true for most games
And more importantly to the general public, almost any character can win a regional. It has one of the best low tiers I've ever seen.
Why aren't you playing the most balanced character in the game?
>>318126281
Sheik is one of the more tech heavy characters in the game
That said she still destroys mid level play with out the tech
>>318126310
But they're still strong compared to Melee/Brawl. There are a lot of guaranteed shield-break combos which kind of makes up for it.
>>318126358
theres almost like 50 characters in the game
most games dont have 50 characters to have like 15 good ones
>>318126436
Literally the most boring character in the game next to Roslina.
>>318126470
>Sheik is one of the more tech heavy characters in the game
That`s not much of a statement.
>>318126436
Because I mained him in Brawl and they took away all of his fun shit
How does a game like DotA with 100+ heroes manage to have 80% of them picked in tournaments consistently when a game like Sm4sh falls flat on it's face when confronted with any resemblance of balance?
>>318126638
All of the heroes in DotA play the same.
>>318126638
DotA actually seriously cares about balance.
>>318126638
Dota has a draft where you choose which heroes everyone's allowed to pick, and the game is constantly rebalanced so there's a revolving door on who's top tier and who's shit.
>>318126470
Honestly Shulk, Peach, and Ryu are way more technical. Monado Cancelling seems OP as shit but it's so many extra inputs.
>>318126316
Please don't. His gimmick is one of the worst in the game and I really don't want to see more of it.
>>318126638
Devs aren't retarded and arrogant
>>318126809
That's true
But Sheik isn't far down the list
Fuck extra input the hard part of MALLC seems like it's the timing.
>>318126281
Friendly reminder that Fox destroying your fingers isn't a good thing friend.
>>318126638
Because Sakurai makes it his goal to ruin any semblance of competitiveness in Smash.
>>318126638
sakurai's heart lies in bells and whistles novelty over nuance and refinement of core gameplay
>>318126436
i rather stick with competitive KI: Uprising than Smash 4 Pit.
>>318126436
strong character, above average
but he's vanilla with a glass of water
real fucking boring but largely inoffensive
>>318113038
Rock, paper, scissors
>>318115653
She doesn't.
>>318127008
I know, but that's the thing though.
Fox is stupidly broken, he has an amazing brutal toolkit that shits on everyone on the game but unleashing that toolkit requires hundreds of hours of practice and fucking yourself up.
>all this talk about tiers
I play Ganondorf and I still win 70% of my online matches. Do you have any fucking idea how bad the match-up is when I have to go up against Samus? Yeah.
Opinions on other characters I play? I also play Lucas, Pac-Man, Bowser Jr. (Wendy), and I'll be playing Cloud the second he's available.
>>318127387
>I play Ganondorf and I still win 70% of my online matches.
>Online matches
>Online
Found your problem
Ganon tends to get underrated though
>>318127387
>FG
Irrelevant opinion.
>>318127387
Try winning locals with those characters and then you can forget tiers
>Complain that Smash 4 is horribly unbalanced
>implying Melee is any better
>>318127387
Ganondorf and DDD are overpowered online because of the input delay
>>318127387
How about you go to a tourney before you make judgement calls like that.
Fuck Rosalina and fuck Shulk.
I main Palutena and have been winning a ton of FG 1v1s against tryhards using Fox, Falco, Yoshim, Rosalina, and Zero Suit Samus. Feels good man.
>>318121941
Nerfs have been either inconsequental or sensible.
Diddy for example got huge nerfs, but it actually ended up making him more interesting.
He no longer has a single combo that overcentralized his game. Mediating his moveset made it so players had to use his entire toolset to be effective.
Same deal with Luigi. While he's still grabcombomaster2020, he at least has to work for his kills now, forcing Luigi players to be more inventive.
>>318127520
Smash 64 is actually the most balanced
>>318127594
>Falco
>Tryhards
>>318127520
>>318127520
I think everyone reading this acknowledges Melee's horrible balancing
I still love it, though
>>318126436
There's no reason to play him when Mario exists and fills the all-rounder archetype better.
>>318127642
I mean the game has 12 characters
Isn't DK pretty booty anyways?
>>318127594
Palutena is the best!
>>318127768
No.
The only legitimately bad character in 64 is Link
Is this fellow a viable counter against Shieks?
The other day I went up against a wannabe Zero who just kept doing Fairs and down-throws to fishes, and while I sucked opening with Marth once I tried Olimar I two-stocked the other guy with a blue Pikmin spike and I must have embarrassed him enough to disconnect right before the results.
>>318127768
64 DK is theoretically the best character in any Smash game because of his cargo infinite
>>318127738
Mario has stubby dwarf arms, his recovery is shit distance wise, and he relies on people falling into his upsmash to seal kills. I honestly have no idea how people do so well with him.
>>318127524
>dealing with gordos offline
>a breeze
>dealing with gordos online
>would rather suicide
>>318127642
Smash 64 is balanced because the game is like Mahvel. You get touched once and you die.
May God have mercy on your soul if they ever touch your shield.
>>318127768
DK is really bad unless you consistently ledge cancel his aerials.
>>318127387
>Ganon main is ignorant
What a surprise.
>>318127846
Shit i forgot that Luigi is worse than link
>>318127870
No not really
>Dthrow to fish
Do you mean Fthrow or was he retarded?
>>318127903
>and he relies on people falling into his upsmash to seal kills.
Like that's hard. His Up Smash is borderline broken.
>Iframes on the head
>strong as fuck
>little start up
>virtually no lag
>>318127969
Fthrow? I guess. I never cared to memorize Shiek's moveset. He'd always land the side-B on me though
>>318126852
I just want his down and side smash to be faster really.
>>318117093
Thankfully, as of patch 1.1. whatever, Samus is still just as shitty as she was in vanilla to prove you wrong.
Also these guys live and breathe Smash, comparing a character to the rest of the roster or a previous incarnation isn't rocket science.
>>318127459
>>318127462
>>318127503
>>318127524
>>318127550
>>318127951
trolled
>>318127928
I reflect them easily online with Palutena with no problem.
Even more satisfying is fucking up Mewtwo or Samus with their own full charge.
>>318128116
>Also these guys live and breathe Smash, comparing a character to the rest of the roster or a previous incarnation isn't rocket science.
They have no access to frame data, zero lab time to find combos/kill confirms, no idea about potential tech
Initial impressions are almost always wrong
Remember when everyone was expecting top-tier bowser?
>>318128274
AR reflects gordos and can also hit DDD, stunning him long enough to get hit by the gordo
Post 'em
>>318120331
Then why are they still releasing balance patches then? If it's only a "party game" then why would they care to nerf or buff characters in the first place?
Remember when people saw Palutena's reveal trailer and thought she would be OP because of her U-Smash and custom moves? Good times...
>>318128410
I know this guy in my region who's top 10. He uses Palutena. Look up PrinceRamen Smash the Record, you might find some of his stuff he's really good.
That and Aerolink.
>>318128410
Her U-Smash is legit though.
>>318128478
There's also IceNinja from Ontario
>>318128371
You already did.
>>318128514
Yeah. It's a shame her moves have so much endlag, yet that fucking braindead cunt Mario can constantly throw out Smash attacks left and right.
>>318128771
It was about time for Mario to be viable again.
He hasn't been good since smash 64.
Funny how Sakurai characters have been garbage since he started working on the series.
>>318128287
No one who actually knows anything about Smash expected top tier Bowser. Everyone knew he just had an abuseable gimmick that would be figured out within a week or two tops.
Meleefag here who's watched alot of high level sm4sh. Honestly I think the game is mostly balanced except for high tier. All the characters in high tier kind of shit on everyone below them. Same problem Melee suffers with. I would say sheik=fox and ZSS=falco in terms of power level. Not broken but if used correctly will shit on everyone below them. Imo Zero and Nairo are the only good sm4sh players and they really bring out their characters potential.
>>318112571
Everyone seems to forget that to properly balance, a character, you must balance them so they (1) play fairly in high level play and casual play, and (2) in 1-on-1 and free for all, and (3) against every character (e.g. take a character you believe is currently C tier, balance them vs. an S tier, and again vs. a D tier). (4) Also have to take in to account the properties of every character. How do you balance Dorf vs. Jiggs, and Dorf vs. Shiek or Mario, and a heavy character, and a ranged character, for example? All 4 points must be thought over.
>>318126216
>>318126310
They need to nerf rolls again.
>>318128854
Didn't Zero think Bowser was top tier at the beginning of 3DS?
>>318128854
what gimmicks does bowser have?
People were just enjoying him and overhyping him because he got buffed and wasn't total dogshit for once.
>>318128371
>>318128969
Nothing, he won that one Nintendo tournament pre-release because it as free for all and so people realized how easy it is to just dive bomb into everyone with Bowser and that was it.
>>318128969
Side-B that cancelled Landing lag on all of his moves.
That was nice and easy to abuse on the 3DS days.
>>318129024
>clusterfuck
>sullying one of the best girls with reddit tier shit
Don't do that.
>>318128892
I think he actually was maining him back before converting to the glory of the hoo hah.
>>318128371
>>318128871
>(3) against every character
Terrible idea
Matchups are the spice of the roster
>>318129024
Damn, I'm usually against using many images but you got pro palutena play down to a t.
>>318129092
No u
>>318115803
>because... reasons?
>?????
Fuck off with your tumblr girl talk, faggot
>>318128371
>>318128969
He has heavy armor against weak attacks: they won't make him flinch.
>>318128969
Bowserciding used to be a thing if you'll recall.
>>318129337
It was a thing in Brawl too, and he was still F tier.
>>318129420
Yeah but he's actually faster and with more range on his side-B here.
Not only that but it can be used to cancel landing lag
>>318128371
is there a phrase for a character who can do a lot of things but benefits from none of it?
>>318129668
"shit"
>>318129702
I was looking for something more poetic, but you're right nonetheless.
