How do we fix The Elder Scrolls combat?
by getting someone else than Bethesda do it
>>316460202
It's been shit since the first game back in 1994. I doubt that's ever going to change.
>>316460202
Easy, outsource it to Arkane. They own them, may as well use them.
>>316460202
Making the game 3rd person only.
It doesn't need fixing.
The current combat system works pretty well unless you want to change it entirely.
By giving it actual weight and impact, something that apparently runs counter to Bethesdas entire design philosophy. Somehow I doubt a game that doesn't have characters mostly gliding across terrain or actually functioning physics is within Beth's technical ability, so the ES games getting even close to something even as flawed yet satisfying as Dragons Dogma is not something that's ever going to happen.
>>316460267
Meme :)
Copying Dark Messiah of Might & Magic.
>>316460267
Pretty much this.
>>316461334
absolutely right, it's hard to immerse yourself when the most impact your attack will have is the same fucking flinch animation every time.
get CDPR to fix it
>>316460202
A complete overhaul. New animations for fucking everything. Basically just remake the whole game from the ground up.
>>316460791
Who the fuck let this guy out the insane asylum?
>>316460202
They really need to look at what other devs have done for first-person melee combat. Chivalry or Mount and Blade would be good games to draw inspiration from or just copy.
Its retarded that we haven't been able to stab with a weapon since Morrowind.
Archery and Magic are fine really, just bring back spell-crafting and some of the old spells.
>>316460791
This has to be fucking bait.
>>316460202
It was ok when they used to make RPGs, people don't exactly go to an RPG for fluid responsive combat.
It's when FO3/4 and Skyrim came around, when they decided to make action adventure games with RPG elements, that it became not ok to have shit combat.
>>316461739
I wish the spells had a little more weight to them but I agree. I think it's an animation issue. The same stagger for every spell seems lazy. This is Bethesda we're talking about though.
>>316460202
Make the exact same game but with dark messiah combat.
There, game of all the years combined.
>>316460202
By getting designers, animators and AI programmers from Dark Messiah and Dragon's Dogma on-board.
Elder Scrolls would grow immensely better for it.
But there are other more glaring issues with Elder Scrolls right now, honestly.
Getting better writers. Preferably from Obsidian or CDPR. Someone needs to tell Todd retconning the lore every new etry throws off the entire credibility of it.
Music can stay the same, Jeremy Soule is a good composer.
I want to say they should also ditch GameBryo/ CreationKit, but in all honesty, I don't think that if they ever do make the change to a modern capable engine, they will ever bother to make modding as strong-rooted in the engine as it does now.
>>316461898
Didn't they hire a bunch of DM developers so they could make Skyrims combat like it? What the hell happened to that?
>>316461739
I agree that Archery is fine, but magic is shit too, mostly the pure offensive magic.
There need to be more traditional spells like AoE fireballs that can be summoned from the sky and so forth instead of simple "aim at the target and hold M1" spells. More skillshots and utility spells - this would also help diversify melee combat too.
As for melee combat: weight, a better parrying system, quick dodges (similar to what the Witcher did with Geralt's side stepping), and more attach types.
>>316461956
creation is janky for sure but very modder friendly
would you have a good engine like frostbyte or rage and remove modability from the TES or just try to keep fixing it
>>316461958
They probably asked Todd to use a different engine.
western dev can't make good combat systme ;)
never
Im kinda liking Requiem+Combat Overhaul, though it can still be kinda easy at times.
>>316461956
GameByro is flawed but it's capable of much more than what Bethesda can do.
>>316462164
Divinity 2 had pretty gud combat desu
But to answer OPs question: Let someone other than bethesda do it
>>316462084
>would you rather have a good game from the get-go
>or a shit game that a bunch of spergs will create content for
I'll take the good game
>>316460202
Steal Dragons Dogma's combat
>>316460791
Kill yourself
Its barely any better than asscreed/witcher shit tier combat
They should contact the guys who made Chivalry.
Also put Arkane Studios in charge of the combat system.
what else
well ofc ANIMATIONS are always a problem with BGS games
I don't know the details but like said before, draw inspiration from games like Dark Messiah and Chivalry.
Just need to get rid of floaty same-ness of every sword swing.
Could even try something like Exanima in first person, then again, maybe not.
>>316462382
It isnt better at all you dong.
>>316462382
>implying its better than witcher combat
kill yourself m'lady
>>316462432
>>316462428
Witcher, asscreed, mad max, skyrim, batman
All shit tier
Get over it
have obsidian make it
>>316462382
>barely any better
TES has the second worst melee combat of any series.
First place is Fallout post 1&2.
>>316462470
still better than anything bethesda in the history of the universe :^)
>>316462481
You need to be 18 to post here kid
>>316462523
Nope. They are all so utterly irredeemable shit none of them are better than the others.
Its just one festering pile of mediocre combat design.
>>316462528
So leave.
>>316462581
Wrong, bethesda is at the bottom
Always
>>316462472
>le obsidian makes everything better meme
New Vegas gameplay was as shit as FO3. They can't make anything better if they keep using the same shitty engine for 15 years.
>>316460345
>Dark Messiah first person fighting mechanics in Skyrim
Awww yiss
completely reworked
you grinded to skill 75
wow you can do some shitty running attack or some such thing
A WHOLE 4th attack animation
it should have a solid core that is fun at all times in the first place
the bows and such i dont mind its pretty much what you expect from a bow
>>316462693
To their defense they at least bothered to add ironsights
The game was still blighted by bethesda though, and good writing or not obsidian are not much better at making mechanics
>>316462426
>Exanima
>First person
I love that game but holy shit I can't even imagine how that would feel or look.
>Swing sword at enemy and pan the camera along the entire swing
>Get hit by overhead melee attack
>Legs fail to balance
>Fall over backwards
>Your fov flips and looks up in the sky all of sudden
Unless you have 120hz+ screens it would be nauseous as fuck.
>>316460202
It's pretty good provided you don't play in first person view like a retard
>>316460202
We install Requiem and add some directional attacks/blocking to it. Also spears of course!
>>316460202
Either iron out the Morrowind system (you know, since this is supposed to be an RPG series, not an action series) or go full souls.
Let's be honest guys
The only chance for TES VI being good would be a collaborative effort between BGS,Arkane and Obsidian
>>316462693
If Oblivion could have a mod which overhauled the fighting system entirely and added GRABS (Deadly Reflexes) then you can be your sweet ass devs COULD make something similar.
Not to mention it's much older version of gamebryo than what's used in Skyrim and FO4.
>>316463123
It might sound like excuses, but Obsidian had a set amount of time to make the entire game. Modders can take as long as they want and are only modding a fraction of the game.
>>316463042
Oh and also don't forget to implement party combat tactics, similar to Baldurs Gate.
>using swords
>>316463042
>requiem
>>316463110
Honestly I'm surprised nobody had the similar mindset, skyrim (and oblivion combat) literally felt as someone took away the diceroll and chance to hit from morrowind and that was just it.
>Hit stop
>bigger enemies
>less focus on drop gear more on crafting
>add more hunting elements
>increase companion limit to 3
>combos using weak and strong attacks
>weapon variety and each one feeling entirely different
>remove enemy scaling
>>316463615
people were just too dumb to understand that you need BIGGER NUMBER in skill to actually connect attacks
>>316463220
That just means they prioritize the wrong things in my opinion. A great combat system can make or break a game entirely and is pretty much the thing you do the entire game.
Besides, there were a ton of mods out long before NV was in the making. If they take inspiration from a mod and copy it without ripping off the code entirely it would be fine. Or even better, just ask to use it.
>>316460202
I don't really have to much of a problem with how magic works, just its function.
About melee combat? For the type of style TES is going for it should simply copy M&B.
>>316462285
I'll take the shit game.
There are plenty of good games out there.
But very little that have mod support, if at all.
Mods are limitless in number and possibilities, and all offer something to the table. They may not have the quality assurance and credibility official releases have, but they have the creativity to add new gameplay mechanics, technological improvements and additions, and content expansion.
Modded Skyrim is probably the best modern WRPG experience around. Why would you give up on that just to make it a Dragon Age/ Dragon's Dogma clone?
>>316460731
This. 1stP is worthless for interesting combat because what makes combat more interesting is mobility and awareness.
>>316461839
What a post. So, Mario shouldn't add more interesting gameplay because it hasn't ever?
>>316463798
>Modded Skyrim is probably the best modern WRPG experience around.
Yet the combat is still shit
>>316460202
Give it to the Dark Messiah guys.
>>316462470
>Witcher, asscreed, mad max, skyrim, batman
Except for skyrim, Ill never get this meme and high horse attitude you frothing contrarian retards have for these games. I dont see how its shit in the sense that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth or is terrible to use. Its just unremarkable simply because theyre relatively easy as fuck. Dont see how that makes it something you cant stand or hate. Mechanics work well and its not broken.
>>316463873
>>So, Mario shouldn't add more interesting gameplay because it hasn't ever?
>gameplay
Missed his point entirely.
>>316462581
Nice memes.
I know you probably think you're all so hardcore and stuff and all your highschool buddies think you're a pro or whatnot, but how about you look at things AS THEY ARE?
Assassin's Creed, Witcher 3, and Batman all have good, functional combat. It's responsive, fast, it looks good, it's easy to get into. Arguably Unity is pretty buggy and messy but the rest have been fine.
Are they easy no-brainers that pose almost no challenge? Probably. Are they functional though? Most certainly.
Skyrim combat is dysfunctional. It's incredibly buggy, disorienting, looks bad, unresponsive, unbalanced, always in the extremes of being either too fucking OP or too fucking impossible.
Don't try to draw symmetry where there is none.
>>316463885
There are mods to help with that.
And so what? Everything else is pretty amazing with mods.
Don't be so autistic, there's more to these games other than punching shit.
>>316464190
>Don't be so autistic, there's more to these games other than punching shit.
Oh yeah m8 let me pick up flowers and brew shit to increase my level and the level of enemies while I'm at it.
>>316464043
Except, not. His point is that an RPG can not have great gameplay. That's fucking a stupid idea.
>>316460202
>>316464336
His point is an RPG doesn't have great combat.
>>316464535
>still doesn't get it
It's an appeal to tradition, and it's worthless.
>>316464492
I'm honestly baffled how no game company has ripped the combat system off here, it's simple yet so effective.
Hell, just flat out 1:1 copy it and add better animations and you can have me bombard your company with wods of cash.
I think skyrim's combat is fine
>>316460202
I could go into specifics but the first step is getting a new fucking engine. No point in doing anything until that happens.
>>316464681
no game since to really care about physic anymore, throwing barrels, chairs and shit was fun as fuck ... each combat was unique
>>316462472
>obsidian in charge of anything other than story elements
Are you fucking retarded?
lol people actually waste time in combat with these games? just go stealth archer so you can clear a room fast and get to the porn mods fast.
>>316460202
Get rid of first person, Dragon's Dogma gameplay.
Done.
>>316462326
>>316464671
No fag, you can have good RPG combat and bad RPG combat when you're comparing two games within the genre.
But RPGs all have bad combat compared to to other genres, and Skyrim stopped being an RPG and tried to be an action game, so its shit combat was no longer a byproduct of its genre.
Talk about needed things spelled out for you.
>>316464937
>playing the game
Why even bother? Just become a summoner and let your minions do all the gameplay for you.
>>316460202
Kingdom Come: Deliverance
>>316462701
Dear god would that be amazing.
>>316465038
>>>The combat was OK because it was an RPG. RPGs aren't played for fluid, responsive combat.
>>That's dumb. All games should have great combat now.
>Skyrim's shit combat isn't a byproduct of its genre!
Non-sequitur. Fuckoff.
>>316465172
SEE THAT MOUNTAIN?
YOU CANKICK IT OVER
>>316465259
How is that a non-sequitur you actual, genuine retard?
How can Skyrim's shit combat be a byproduct of a genre it isn't trying to be a part of anymore? It's dropped the RPG mechanics that hold RPG combat back from other genres so it no longer has any excuse and the combat should be better, not the same.
>>316463798
I would rather not have to trawl though mod databases looking for mods, finding what is compatible, installing the mod manager and script extender, sorting out the load orders and then still have bugs.
I would rather the game was good enough to start with, mods are the icing on the cake, you shouldn't need them to replace half the ingredients.
>>316465506
The genre is no excuse to have shitty combat. Thus, it being in a genre or not is irrelevant.
>>316465559
It is relevant because that was the point of the guy's post which went straight over your buzzword shitposting head.
Have fun being a retard.
>>316465641
>An RPG can have "shitty" combat
No. Turn based combat isn't some hugely popular gameplay style, and that's probably because it's not fun.
God, Skyrim on the hardest is some retarded ass shit.
>Random bandit with shitty rugs and an iron dagger has 10,000hp and takes 15 hits from my two-handed axe to kill
>His iron dagger one-shots you through a full imperial armor (superior)
Fuck this
>>316465831
>(superior)
Do you seriously think we're so retarded we need to be explained imperial armor is better than "shitty rugs"? Kill yourself.
>>316460202
TES always has a lot of trouble because the combat is in an uncomfortable medium between action and RPG. You can't do it in full action real time like Skryim because it's so dumbed down it's unreal but Morrowind looked weird as fuck.
I do kind of think that Morrowind was on to something though.
I think the main thing is to give more feedback for misses.
Here's a system I propose:
>Combat is centered around time going by as a resource, similar to AP systems
>Each weapon and attack type has a "time" cost. A light attack costs less than a heavy attack and a one handed weapon costs less than a battle axe etc.
>This time cost is essentially the amount of time before you can take another action so a light one handed attack will mean you have to wait one second and a heavy two handed attack will mean you have to wait four seconds
>Potions and haste spells can be used to reduce this wait time
>Aiming at an enemy highlights them for your next attack
>Your skills, statistics and weapon type vs. the enemies' are used to calculate what happens. such as a strike, critical, block, miss or parry, which is shown in visual feedback, something this Morrowind lacked
>Enemy attacks function in a similar way
>Blocking works through a percentage chance of stopping an attack but adds to the time you must wait before you can attack again
>If you don't have a shield you have a lower chance of blocking, but the block will manifest as a parry, which does not reduce the time you must wait to attack again and adds an extra second onto your enemies' cooldown
Though it's pretty different from Skyrim, it would regulate the combat more and be more reliant on your characters' skills and armour. Blocking and movement would be the only realtime elements but are also reliant on your character's skills.
I guess that companions could also level up and be skilled by you, and using a slow motion command menu you could manually command them to attack during your own downtime.
>>316465831
This. The only difficulty increase is enemies buff up their health and theres no gaps or openings to exploit or any fluidity or strategy in their actions. It just becomes mash, mash, mash.
>>316465885
"(superior)" is an addition to the names of reinforged armor in the game you fucking idiot
>>316461589
>press button to spin around with your sword
nah.
Wait guys, isnt TESO's combat already kind of a fixed skyrim? Im looking at gameplay videos and it looks far better than anything before.
>>316461739
Magic is not fine. In combat it's just a damage spray/ball pressing A of different colours for god's sake. Archery is not terrible per se but its skills are too OP, ridiculously OP.
Fallout 4's melee is the best Bethesda has done.
Imagine Devil May Cry combat in Skyrim.
>>316460202
Hire a Souls developer.
>>316461684
or make a new engine
>>316466740
He said "fix", not "mess up"
>>316466780
Seems like an upgrade to me. :^)
>>316460202
your choice of fix is 1. make a mod
what you actually do is BAWW I DONT LIKE GAMES BAWWW
>>316461334
>By giving it actual weight and impact
Holy shit, this.
Somebody described Skyrim's combat like "flailing at a rhinoceros with a wet trash bag", which I find very accurate. If I'm whacking some bandit asshole with a warhammer, it should FEEL like I'm whacking some bandit asshole with a warhammer.
why is it japs develop good combat systems but terrible world building systems
opposite for western
>>316460202
For melee, just copy and improve on dead island analog combat / mount and blade and fight night fight stick combat. Those games directional combat is pretty rad. Don't know about magic system though
>attack with a melee weapon
>character swings it in an arc in front of them
>but if the little cursor in the middle of the screen isn't over the target it will just phase straight through and do nothing
This always bothered me a lot.
>>316460202
Make it turn-based.
>more fast paced, take small cues from Dying Light/Vermintide
>quasi-directional input like Dark Messiah
>impacts need to be impactful, rather than a kitchen knife on tissue paper
>>316466860
Stop victim blaming.
Bethesda's shit-piss combat is offensive.
>>316469382
>playing with the HUD
>playing in 1st person view ourside of archery and interiors
>>316460202
Landing hits needs to feel better so realistic collisions and appropriate pain reactions are needed.
Combat needs to be more involving. Add locational damage and locational armor so that players need to aim their attacks in order to exploit weak spots.
Too much variation in HP and Damage. Normalize both so that things die quickly but kill quickly too. Decoupling HP from level could be a good idea.
More environmental hazards/traps that can be used against opponents.
Have the player fight against groups of opponents that synergize well between themselves; melee guys being supported by archers and healers for example.
>>316471991
>melee guys being supported by archers
Already the case
>>316464882
They added some good stuff unto New Vegas though. I think their projects just tend to get rushed as fuck.
>>316465172
Dark Messiah successor on Source 2 when?
