I wish devs would understand this.
>that image
>>253043838
stop remaking this thread, no one cares
>I should never have to worry about there being any penalty for death
but but but how will i know im a true gamer unless im forced to play a game for hours because of artificial difficulty and tired themes
>>253044239
if the penalty is tedious combat sections that add nothing to the game, then fuck that noise
But Dark Souls does a checkpoint after every encounter.
>>253044239
Fuck the faggot writer and props to that dev, he is right.
>the goofy, fist pumping cheer when you (beat hard thingy there) that lasts for days
Do people actually experience this? Are people this retarded?
When I beat Ornstein I didn't feel happy, I started worrying about the next pile of bullshit the game was going to throw at me.
>La Mulana
>people praise the game for being hard as shit
>combat is easy, bosses aren't very difficult at all and all the puzzles are fair
>but the clues for the puzzles are hidden in regions not even remotely near the puzzles location, and solving a puzzle often changes something somewhere else in the game world with the player being given no indication where it happened
What do you call this? Artificial lengthening?
>>253044239
The penalty in the first game is needing to go through that wave of enemies again or starting the boss over. How is that different from the penalty in the second game other than being less tedious?
>>253044681
>>253044754
>this is the average /v/ poster now
>Empty space inbetween waves of enemies
I don't remember this in Dark Souls, and it didnt happen in the sequel until you made the enemies stop respawning.
>>253044989
It feels good to not be autistic
>>253044754
>>the goofy, fist pumping cheer when you (beat hard thingy there) that lasts for days
>
>Do people actually experience this? Are people this retarded?
Are you a faggot? The feeling of victory after failing dozens or hundreds of times is fantastic.
I don't get people who shit on OP, he has a point. Forcing the player to replay the segment they had no trouble with doesn't add challenge, it just adds tedium.
>>253044681
The entire point of the game is combat. If you don't like the combat then maybe you don't like the game.
>>253045165
Then they should've focused on making the combat good first.
>>253044937
Artficial puzzlening.
>>253044989
Amazing rebuttal.
>>253045134
I don't feel this at all. Then again I'm not complete shit at videogames and I don't fail often.
I guess if you spent 90% of your time eating dirt that one victory would feel good.
I agree but I'm casual as fuck so whatever.
If you don't like the combat, and you aren't willing to get used to it, then dark souls isn't for you. Doesn't mean the game itself is shit.
>>253044937
Get
Gud
>>253045297
Or the combatr is good but you don't like it. If you're going to attempt to troll at least put effort into it.
>>253044239
Artificial difficulty is something only a sperglord could "enjoy". It's so great that your asinine opinion is rendered invalid by sheer unpopularity. Eat shit.
The solution to your problem is to stop dying.
>>253043838
Guys, quick, this thread is shit, what's the html address to the newgrounds.com adult section
pleaseplease
>>253045386
And what genre do you play? FPS?
That's nothing. Ninja Gaiden had 5 bosses in a row.
It's the best feeling, you can't replicate that tension any other way than to have actual loss on the line.
>>253045662
>Slow, clunky, unresponsive combat is good
>>253045545
>>253045671
Artificial difficultydoesn't exist.If you're toio fucking retarded to realize that different games offer different things to different people and your way of gaming isn't the right one, but just the right one for you then you are the sperglords, John.
>pc kids upset they can't quicksave every seconds
>>253045152
This.
Make actual penalties for fucking up instead of "heh guess you gotta do it over :0)"
>>253045842
If you want unresponsive and clunky, try assassins creed or prince of persia,a game with fucking built-in savestates
>>253045152
What if the challenge is in doing large portions of the game at once? IWBTG is much, much, much harder when there aren't checkpoints scattered everywhere.
It also adds tension, the further you get the more there is at stake. It's a feeling that many games nowadays don't have.
>>253045815
Everything but sports and racing.
>>253045842
I said put effort into it, not parrot shit that's already been proven false.
>>253046121
Including Shmups? Classic Action? Crazy?
>>253046131
>>253045991
Yes it does. Anything that makes a game harder to complete that cannot be topped by skill or intelligence is artificial difficulty. It increases the difficulty without actually increasing the challenge.
For an example, try a regen health cover shooter that just makes you die a lot quicker out of cover on higher difficulties. It doesn't add challenge at all, it just means you have to sit behind a wall longer.
>>253046247_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________do you?
>>253046008
You have to be careful with that, otherwise you end up Guild Wars 1 shit. For those unfamiliar if you die you get a -10% to stats that stack up to -60% until you return to town. After a few deaths a hard encounter becomes impossible
>inb4 lol playing GW1 PVE
>>253046213
Cuhrayzee isn't a genre nigbreath.
>>253045386
Why play video games if you don't get a feeling of satisfaction after beating a difficult part
>>253046360
And why is that bad?
>>253046107
If you're using IWBTG as an argument in favor of a mechanic, you know there's a problem with that mechanic.
>>253043838
How about not dying?
>>253046448
Thats stupid, it should run on a timer instead of forcing you to go somewhere. Then you could create a penalty by forcing the player to be more careful until they get their strength back.
>>253046406
The attacks have a very noticeable delay between pressing the button and executing the attack, for one.
Another is the plethora of regular enemies with giant health bars that drag the pace to a screeching halt.
>>253045991
Artificial Difficultyexists,
but the only correct time to apply it is a section in which the player's skill does not affect the outcome. Prior knowledge of an otherwise undetectable trap/unpredictable attack/ect is not skill. It also applies to literally luck-based challenges.
Except in Dark Souls, it's waves of easy to kill bad guys that can usually just be run past every time.
>>253046573
Because it isn't challenging. You aren't actually being tested, the game is just going "fuck you" and retards defend it because they want to seem like Mr. Badass McHardCoreGamer.
>>253046621
Do you undserstand what an attack animation is?
>>253043838
I guess this is a troll, but whatever. I'm not going to say that DS was a perfect game, far from it. It had plenty of problems and unpolished aspects, but for the most part the level design was solid, comparable to DeS even. There was almost no "empty space", I don't know what you mean by that - compared to similar games it's actually a very small map packed full of content, just compare it to, say, Skyrim or NV. But the checkpoints were spaced out very heavily. That has to do with the short iteration time of the game. When you die, you lose almost nothing, and respawn almost instantly. By spacing the checkpoints out, it creates a more palpable sense of tension - all "hard" games use the same principle to some extent, it gets progressively more stressful as you go on because you realize there's more at stake when you die.
Good example, DS 2 had checkpoints everywhere, and it just made the game so much more vapid and boring.
>>253045842
>Simon's whip should've moved faster in Castlevania 1. The delay made it too hard.
DS didn't exactly have perfect combat but the "clunky" aspect was, in a big way, intentional.
>>253045991
>>253046729
>just be run past
And then they all follow you and rape you since aggro doesn't end until death.
>>253046775
not that guy but theres a delay between input and animation starting you smart mouthed whore
>>253046775
Yes, good attack animations correspond well with the button inputs to make the combat feel more fluid and responsive.
>>253046621
>I don't know what an attack delay
>Every attack must occur instantly or else it's shit
You must be really bad at Monster Hunter, man. Designers purposely hinder your attack, in good games, in order to create more interesting combat scenarios.
>>253043838
>Waaaaah why won't devs stop pandering to casuals
>devs decide to make difficult game
>ARTIFICIAL DIFFICULTY IT'S SHIT WHY AREN'T THERE MORE CHECKPOINTS TRIAL AND ERROR GAMEPLAY
A good majority of the people on /v/ have no idea what they want, they just hate everything that other people like.
>>253046621
I actually just loaded this up on my Steam version of the game. Other than there being an animation where the character lifts the sword to swing it, there is no delay.
>>253046792
>comparing your shitty game to a totally unrelated good game
Simon's whip didn't have a delay you mouthbreathing faggot.
I wish DaS never existed, these "get gud fggt" fanboys are the worst game community I've ever seen.
>>253046590
It's basic logic. Having to do more of the game perfectly is harder than doing a smaller portion of the game perfectly.
I used IWBTG in defense of both checkpoint systems, by the way.
I never actually understood people complaining about needing to run back from the bonfire in DaS. The bonfires are almost always placed in positions that make it easy to get back to the boss in like a minute TOPS. Only exception is possibly Lost Izalith, because I always run from the demon ruins shortcut and that titanite demon is a pain in the ass.
I could see where you're coming from if you made this complaint about Demons Souls though. Most areas were fine because there were shortcuts you could trigger, but then you have hell holes like 4-2.
>>253046752
But some people enjoy that. Whjo are you to say that's wrong?
Some people like to eat shit out of an asshole.
It's fucking weird, but there's a market for it.
>>253046948
If a designer wanted a difficult fight, they could make the enemy vulnerability window smaller, or they could make your attacks delayed. One feels more natural and responsive, and therefore more fun, than the other.
>>253046887
No there isn't. I just loaded up my game to double check and besides the lifting the sword to swing it animation, there is no delay.
Top is Mega Man.
A lot of people in here probably said that the top is casual-tier, but It can still be hard
>>253043838
there's no excuse for games not to allow you to pause it and save it at any time, even if you fuck yourself up by doing this (your fault)
>>253043838
What empty space is this image talking about?
>>253046360
>It increases the difficulty without actually increasing the difficulty
lol okay
either its harder or its not
the fact that you find it boring or otherwise dislike it is irrelevant
>>253046948
>Designers purposely hinder your attack, in good games
You're no better than the person you're arguing with. Both types of combat can be done well or badly.
>>253046887
>And then they all follow you and rape you since aggro doesn't end until death.
but that's wrong
also git gud. I know that is overused, but it perfectly applies here. The enemy AI is extremely predictable and there should be no problems running past them
>>253047298
The "excuse" is called game design.
>>253047298
Other than an intended experience. This has nothing to do with CINEMATIC either. If I want the player to constantly be on edge then I don't want them to be able to pause, save, and take a breather until they get to a point I've designed them to get to.
If you can't understand that then I'm really sorry, but game design is more than that.
>>253047295
Mega man makes you go back all the way when you run out of lives right? That's probably the problem, some games have a mega man-esque level design without lives
>>253046752
It's a challenge to find a spot where someone can't just shoot you. It's hard to hide. It's hard to get away. You're dumb.
>>253046887
>And then they all follow you and rape you since aggro doesn't end until death.
You're bad at the game, then.
>>253046930
And DS does a fine job with that. If the animation lags behind the input that's a technical issue, not a design one.
I think you mean when the hit registers. In most games the animation will trigger long before the hit does, like with a projectile or a sword swing. It doesn't hit when the sword is at its apex, but when it comes down.
If you feel it's slow or clunky, to each his own. But it is by no means "bad design."
>>253047031
It doesn't hit the instant you press it, it has a slight delay. Go fire up the game again or watch a video.
>>253047225
>If a designer wanted a difficult fight, they could make the enemy vulnerability window smaller, or they could make your attacks delayed. One feels more natural and responsive, and therefore more fun, than the other.
Yes, because delayed attacks would be a terribly unfun thing. It's not like that could be a vital game mechanic in an arcade game about shooting spaceships - oh wait.
Both can be engaging. Don't hate a game just because you're bad at it.
>>253047471
True, and I agree 100%, but at the same time almost all attacks are hindered to some extent. That's just a fact. Few games land you a hit the exact moment you press a button, there's almost always a startup and a backswing.
>>253047031
>Simon's whip didn't have a delay you mouthbreathing faggot.
Simon's jump is instant. There is almost no discernible time between button press and jump.
Simon's whip has at least 2 frames of delay before the attack is able to damage anything. This is true in CV 1 and 3.
You fucking faggot
>>253047918
His example wasn't perfect, but artificial difficulty does exist. Skyrim is the best example to come to mind. It's basically a game that boost the numbers of the enemy without offering you many tactics to fight with in the first place.
>>253043838
Whoops OP, it was incomplete.
>>253047984
>2 frames
I thought it was more than that. Like, almost a third of a second.
But yes, it's well known that Simon's whip has a long delay. Only retards think otherwise.
4 had a very quick whip animation, though, and I think 2 was instant.
>>253048116
This.
Games with artificial difficulty are games where the hardest modes can be completed with the same repetitive strategy as the easiest ones, only now it takes more time.
>>253048203
I meant to say it has 2 frames of animation, I don't have a way of timing the exact delay.
It is a very noticeable delay though
>>253047984
Get out of here Arin.
>>253048116
>>253048392
Basically, it's just scaling the numbers without putting in any new interesting patterns or anything. Artificial difficulty is actually a fitting name, because it's difficulty that arises from direct manipulation, rather as a consequence of more interesting attack patterns.
>>253048439
Time is just frames/frames per second.
I dunno how many frames per second that game ran on.
Haven't played a Souls game, but here's my two cents
Games that withhold checkpoints often do so for the purpose of making a segment of a game a gauntlet. A trial of survival.
>trial 1
>trial 2
>trial 3
While it may at first seem tedious to lose to trial 3 and repeat the first two, the reason this is done is so that the challenge is trying to survive with less health lost. Yes, you've proven you can /survive/ the first two, but they still put you through those parts to see if you can perfect them. This isn't perfect however, as you can go through trial 1 and two flawlessly and die on 3, forcing you through 1 and 2 yet again. I feel a way to do this better might be to make checkpoints a prize, earned by doing a section flawlessly.
This is all irrelevant in a game without health bars (most platformers).
>>253048392
>it's not actually harder
>but I'm still going to call it difficulty
Maybe you should stop that? Of course the truth is you're full of shit. If a game is really like that, like some shitty JPRG where you just attack for more rounds and use a potion now and then, no one ever says it's more difficult, artificial or not. They just say "boring" because they're not tards. The only reason "artificial difficulty" is popular is because it allows people to dismiss games that actually ARE harder for them in a way they don't like, so they want to say it doesn't "count."
>>253048681
He's a fag but hey, facts are facts. Simon's whip had a delay, and that made the game more fun.OoT is still better than LttP holy shit how can one man be that stupid
Haven't played Dark Souls, but I agree with the premise of the OP.
I don't mind dying in games, but I find being forced to repeat long sequences over and over incredibly frustrating. Any who thinks this is the mark of a good game is either autistic or gets off on feeling superior to casuals.
>>253048713
>implying changing attacks isn't "direct manipulation"
>implying "direct manipulation" isn't vague as fuck
>implying any of that shit has to do with the meaning of the word "artificial" anyway
>>253048860
Nobody care about your semantic fancy.
The saying exists, it has a meaning, and you know perfectly what it means.
>>253048875
He's a hypocrite. He complains about LttP guiding you by the hand instead of being open world like LoZ1 but in his talk on CV2 he bitched about not knowing where to go...
We call it tryhard, in the industry. Or idiot.
>>253048439
>I don't have a way of timing the exact delay.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3725/measuring_responsiveness_in_video_.php?print=1
>>253046470
>nigbreath
It's shit like this that reminds me that I'm talking to a bunch of kids.
>>253048875
Lord God in Heaven, it doesn't have a delay. The animation has a wind up before the attack actually lands.
Dark Souls has a delay between when you press the button and when the animation even begins.
If there is checkpoints everywhere, eventually you'll get past the level/boss even if you aren't good at it as long as you make a little of progress.
In these games you don't get better at the game to progress, and you don't need to, you can just push yourself and eventually you'll beat it.
That's the problem with modern games.
Those old Sega and NES games had the worst difficulty.
LIVES? Only 3 of them for the whole game? No fuck that shit.
Now, quicksaving is too far in the opposite direction to be reasonable. There needs to be a middle ground.
>>253043838
Where does quick saving fit in this image?
>>253049215
I think he's using delay in regards to the windup. Not between the button press and the animation. And techincally, it would be a delay since the attack doesn't go into the hitbox frame until 2 frames of "windup" which is purely aesthetic, so...
>Checkpoints
>Not quick saving anywhere
>>253048940
DS has you repeat long sequences but they're by no means empty. They're not as good as DeS but still very strategic. You can avoid most traps just by paying attention, you can literally see archers and stuff on distant towers and cliffs.
>>253049072
Maybe I should've been clearer. You can objectively say, hey, if the boss has 2000 attack rather than 100, it's harder, but it's not as clear whether a boss with 20 new moves is going to be tougher. The difficulty arises in learning something new, and figuring out the patterns, rather than just getting better with old skills.
Not to say the latter isn't valid. Shmups are a good example of that. But they can be a point of contention.
>>253049215
>Dark Souls has a delay between when you press the button and when the animation even begins.
Well, that's just not true. Check your computer, that's never happened to me.
There are very long windups, but no delay between input and animation start. At least, not any significant input, or any input delay you won't see in other games.
>>253049124
No, no one knows "perfectly well" what it means because it's a nonsensical term that people use it to describe any kind of difficulty they don't like. They don't have consensus even among themselves. It's certainly not used strictly to only mean games that truly ONLY get more boring and time-intensive with zero additional skill required.
See, the thing about having actual criticism instead of just looking for phrases that seem to bolster your own opinion is that you have to give a shit about what you're actually saying.
>>253043838
This is actually an issue in Dark Souls 2, where they fill an area with a ridiculous amount of enemies which is a slog to go through. *cough*Vestalt*cough*.
>>253049656
Take one step >>> Quicksave >>> Take one step >>> Quicksave >>> etc.
So those of you who think that you should always have a checkpoint right before a boss fight, how do you feel about checkpoints during a boss fight, or instant respawns during a boss fight?
>>253049535
Folks weren't pussies back in these days though.
When I was a kid I could lose huge amounts of time on videogames (as in waste rather than spend), because they weren't obsessed with being time-efficient as they are today.
The reward felt better.
Among the few games still following these kinds of pattern today are roguelikes, and finishing one of time is often very rewarding. Some faggots copy their savefiles, but fuck them.
>>253049801
You know you can run just past those enemies right?
>>253049808
It's more like
>Quick save at meaningless shit
>The one time you forget to and your party wipes is 2 hours ago.
>>253049657
Yeah, that's what I mean. Having a delay between input and animation start would be silly. But delay can mean any number of things and I thought I was clear that I meant it as "startup" to the animation.
There isn't any severe delay between input and animation in DS, though.
>>253049830
Removes all challenge if you don't need to do the boss all over again, provided its a shorter boss.
If the boss is like W101 length, some checkpoints in boss fight should be there.
Instant respawn, hell no.
>>253049657
>Whip windup
>Purely aesthetic
It made the game more challenging, you had to time your jumps perfectly and predict attacks.
>You are now aware that this was the best checkpoint system ever invented in gaming
Why did we get rid of this shit? It was perfect. Let the player decide when to make checkpoints, but don't give him the ability to make checkpoints everywhere.
>>253049787
The boss with 20 new moves is probably a lot cooler and more interesting to play against, but that doesn't make the difficulty more "real."
>>253044239
There's a 0% chance this guy has actually beaten SMB with the real ending.
Artificial difficulty is a game in which you expect to be able to use your skills and abilities to get past a challenge but have a difficult time doing so because of reasons that are outside of the intended game.
So for instance, bugs, bad programming, inconsistent application of rules, etc. are all examples of artificial difficulty and many games do have this.
For instance, one could argue that in a game in which you expect to be able to hide behind pillars to avoid attacks but can't because the enemy's weapons can magically go through said pillars (even though yours cannot)...that would be artificial difficulty.
Let's say a fight is bugged and the enemy's damage is way higher than it should be. Artificial difficulty.
A game which denies information that is critical for progression would also qualify as artificial difficulty.
>>253050129
Well I am saying that it's a delay with a windup aesthetic. It does require tactical planning.
>checkpoints
>good games
>>253049923
They made them specifically annoying to run through. The last two knight turtle the fog gate purposely, unlike any other enemy.
>>253050134
True, but that's just a matter of semantics. Whatever we call it, we can agree there's a difference between two kinds of difficulty.
>>253050132
That's not checkpointing. That saving.
>>253049215
Only if you're playing with KB/M.
However, the attack animations themselves are about 80% windup, 10% actual swing, and 10% recovery.
>>253044239
I dev there sums up how I feel about difficulty in games perfectly.
The penalty for dying should be to repeat the part that you failed over. Having to repeat the part you failed and 5 sequences that preceded it is just pointless tedium that makes the game worse.
Different check points work in different games.
In games based around resource management, exploration, or survival, demanding check points force the player to to not only overcome challenges, but do so efficiently. It also creates an actual sense of danger and reason to play conservatively.
This goes for games like Resident Evil, Dark Souls, Contra, and every Roguelike ever.
On the other side, game built around fast, difficult, one off situations benefit from not forcing the player to constantly go through sections in which they have clearly already found the "solution" to. This encourages experimentation and a fast pace.
Examples would be Hotline Miami, Doom, and every CRPG ever.
>>253050464
>That's not checkpointing. That saving.
You're not a faggot, but you suck dick.
>>253050132
You still needed to use it at a typewriter; the save points were still set, you just had limited uses of them. And it has been a while, but I remember having enough of them that they never felt like a rare commodity.
You can get the same effect in modern games by just not stopping at every save point.
>>253050426
I can run past them just fine. I usually beat Velsdadt on my first try because he's easy as fuck but I was having a bit of trouble in my SL1 run (a lot actually), and in that run I learned how to run past everything. The key is to ring the bell.
Dark Souls is even less punishing than most conventional RPGs because you can just run past 90% of the enemies.
So really, the only difference between Dark Souls and a well paced game is that Dark Souls punishes you for exploring by throwing more enemies at you.
>>253050129
Jesus Christ you are fucking stupid, the animation is aesthetic because it doesn't actually land the attack.
>>253050426
I remember that part with a hex character
>get to the turtling Syan knights
>cast Lifedrain Patch
>they just stand there in it until they're dead
Same goes for the lmao2shield guys earlier in the crypt.
>>253044239
this must be written by a kid, or someone otherwise unemployed
I work 8 hours a day
I have shopping to do, cooking to do, and obligations to be kept.
I dont have fucking time to spend 20 minutes redoing tedious bullshit because I died in a bossfight.
That is how you get me to uninstall your game.
I remember that I used to not mind. When I was a kid I didnt really care that I had to start from scratch every time, I did get that impression that it made the end result more tense...Now, between not having time for it, and knowing thats total bullshit (I regularly find games tense even knowing that restarting the fight is easy, instead of the punishment for failure being a retread, its the sacrifice of a smooth experience)
Every dev needs to follow this simple guideline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozwxbGjC_oA&feature=kp
>>253050195
what about
>>253044937
where critical information is hidden in a completely unrelated area across the game map?
>>253050195
That's another problem, and I don't think it has any other name than bad fundamental design, as in the dev just forgot to test it themselves. These things are pretty rare in the last decade, but in the 80's and 90's games they were numerous.
There is one ultima game, I think it's Ultima 3 Exodus, where you HAVE to buy some key to some guy in order to finish the game.
There is no clue whatsoever, neither in the manual nor the game itself, that indicates which NPC is it you have to tell "buy" to (you had to type what you asked to the NPCs). And it's a random, completly useless one. He respond to the same template as every other npc, only he has a special entry for the keyword 'buy', in which he sells you the key.
There was no internet at the time and there are tons on people nowaday on old-school forums asking how the fuck was this game supposed to be done.
That's not artificial difficulty, it just makes the game unplayable/unfinishable.
>all these casuals
Neo-/v/ ,everyone
>>253050964
Sounds like you shouldn't even be playing the game in the first place.
It's your fault you don't have time, deal with it and play something else.
>>253051009
>>253051016
On TVtropes it's called Guide Dang It.
>>253044239
It can work fine for different games, both points of view are wrong for dealing in absolutes.
>>253043838
Beating a challenge that you had to fight through a ton of other shit to get through is much more satisfying that beating a standalone challenge. For example, I bought Ikaruga on Steam recently and have been playing it on default settings (ie. 3 lives, no continues) and every time I unlock a new stage it feels fucking incredible. It's the same feeling you used to get from killing hard raid bosses in WoW, before they just let you play on easy mode if you sucked.
>>253050132
I loved that system so much.
but its been done better...cant remember where, but some game i played let me save literally anywhere, but i had a limited number of saves
>>253050964
I SWEAR TO FUCKING GOD IF ONE MORE FAGGOT ACTS LIKE HAVING A JOB MEANS THEY HAVE NO FREE TIME I'M GONNA PUNCH A FUCKING BLENDER
>>253050964
You do realize I have to watch his whole review every tine you post that? Asshole.
/v/ is mostly inhabited by mid to late 90's born casuals, or dudebros and nongamers that came in with the Wii/360/PS3 generation and think they have a say while all sucking at games as much as they do.
Ignore the casuals, collect tears, it's what I do and it works. You cannot reason with casuals, because even if you come up with the most reasonable and even minded argument in the world, they'll just ignore it and start shitposting about how you're a tryhard autist. Modern /v/ is that kid that stormed into his brothers room, demanded to play his games, then whined and told his mom like a snot bubbling little cunt when he was told no. Modern /v/ is the timeout generation of kids that got sent to their rooms to play videogames as a timeout instead of being beaten like they should have.
Welcome to casual gaming, enjoy your stay. They have the money and that means devs/pubs will cater to them. They are ignorant enough to use their deep pockets to support bad games, and further the casualization of gaming.
The only time in Dark Souls where I legitimately complained about the lack of checkpoints is before the Capra Demon.
>>253051492
>not understanding people aren't the same as you
k
>>253043838
Dark Souls doesn't have waves of bad guys, you never face more than a small handful at a time.
>>253051281
He could get more time to become good at video games if he decided to play them instead of posting about how gamers need to get a life on /v/.
>>253050057
>Instant respawn, hell no.
But I've already proved that I can take the boss down to 73% health. I shouldn't have to do it again.I was going to respond sooner but the auto update broke
>>253051281
....are we talking about something fucking specific here?
What game should I be unhallowed to play because I dont have mommy paying my rent and making my food?
Holy shit, please be 12.
>>253050964
I work full time too faggot, and I've also played games for 56 hours in the past 2 weeks according to steam, and that doesn't include Dwarf Fortress. learn to manage your time better.
>>253044239
Pic is tl;dr but this post is correct. Death should be a penalty. Death should be a punishment. Death should be significant.
Besides, you can run through the enemies in Dork Souls unless you're mentally challenged.
>>253049923
not reliably. They made it so those knights in particular turtle camp around the fog gate, and they also changed how fog gates (and doors) work so that you can be hit-stunned out of the animation. Enemies in DaS2 also run much faster and you can sprint across the entire map and enemies will still be right behind you waiting to rape you when you get to the fog gate.
It's not a challenge, it's just a massive FUCK YOU to anyone who doesn't want to grind mobs or anyone who likes speedrunning or just going fast in general.
>>253051706
So you want savestates, and also don't care for learning consistency.
>>253051678
>being a fucking child and complaining about having a job
>>253051502
Its funny because I do too.
Im about to put it on and go to bed to it, haha.
>>253051492
Must be nice to be you. Good luck with the kids...and not understanding what I even said
>>253050964
>Every dev needs to follow this simple guideline:
>links to a video from a MOVIE review
>>253051492
This.
Demon's Souls had a fucked up checkpoint system, in that you got sent back to the start of the level, but all the healing items you used before you died were still gone. Man that's fucking obnoxious, but at least they fixed it by introducing the Estus Flask.
>>253051918
Keep the original post in mind. I'm trying to play devil's advocate.
I wish that people who hold this opinion would, instead of bitching and trying to get the formula changed to their tastes, would just stop playing Souls games.
We get it, you guys want zero penalties for sucking at games. For many of us, the experience is cheapened if we know it really doesn't matter how hard we try.
>>253051965
I wasn't the dude complaining and I don't complain about that. Some people want games that they can play quickly. If he's saying a game is bad because it can't cater to his lifestyle, then it's an issue. Dude was just saying he doesn't have time for games that can't match his needs. With offensive language that riles you guys up.
>>253052193
From what I understand, those people are annoyed when idiots say that every game should be like the Souls games.
>>253050964
>I should be able to play super hardcore games even with my busy schedule and no free time
>all niche developers should base their games around my specific needs
fuck off and die
>>253051772
It heavily depends on the surrounding gameplay mechanics. For something like SMB which is just a simple platformer the lack of penalty makes sense, since you have nothing to lose anyway but time. Games like Dark Souls, where endurance, character advancement and planning play a large role, SHOULD have a more severe penalty, because you have a lot to lose or gain throughout the game and it's persistent.
>>253052118
Only to fuck it up in Dark Souls 2, by having healing items AND estus flasks.
Not that it mattered, now that there are bonfires around every corner.
>oh this game is too easy
>why isnt this game harder
>im looking forward to x game because its very hard
>no very hard mode? 0/10 wont buy
Why do you people put game difficulty in such a high light? A hard game does not make a good game. A game isn't supposed to challenge you, it's supposed to be a medium for your to experience a story or look at good artistic direction or listen to music (or a combination of all three). Making a game super hard just makes it that much harder to experience all of the above, essentially a barrier to entertainment.
Games should be relaxing and not challenging at all, modern games are way too convoluted normal people just want to watch stuff happen.
>>253052016
You have no time to play video games but have plenty of time to make terrible posts on image boards and be a fucking casual.
>>253051757
>>253051965
It seems no one here can read.
I have time to play video games. I dont have time to WASTE on video games.
There are also things outside of jobs, which you are apparently unfamiliar with...like friends, family, other hobbies, second jobs, kids, dogs, medical issues, fucking guardians of the galaxy oh my god they finally made a GoG movie, social events, vacation, working out, etc
>>253052454
That's just lazy. 2obvious, apply yourself.
>>253052454
>>253051538
I think you might be exagerating, but I think you have some truth of it.
Apparently it's not acceptable to spend several weeks to finish a game now. It HAS to be this 8 hours linear experience, otherwise it's a badly designed game that is either too hard or too vast or inhospitable to the player.
Pic related is Matsumoto Hitoshi, a japanese comedian and celebrity who got to test Pikmin 3 before it released. It's made as an interview, where he discusses the game with the developer on the right and at some point the dev just clearly say they wanted to make it easier, yet interesting for experts.
That's where gaming is headed. Easy and accessible first, "interesting" for experts second.
The majority of profits is in the casual wallet, and the devs know it. That's their audience now.
>>253052546
>learn to manage your time better.
Seems like you are unable to read.
>>253052546
Okay so just say you don't like playing video games and want to watch a movie then.
>>253043838
"It a good thing that this game uses checkpoints over quicksaves" - No one with a brain ever
>>253052546
Unless you're playing for money video games are inherrently a waste of time.
Using your social life as an excuse for why you can't play challenging games is beyond pathetic
>>253052454
>A game isn't supposed to challenge you, it's supposed to be a medium for your to experience a story or look at good artistic direction or listen to music
>a game isn't supposed to challenge you
I know this is bait, but come on
>>253052612
Being as normalfag as possible to collect responses is working pretty well for the other guy.
>>253052024
....yes? so?
>>253052357
Simple solution:
offer two modes.
one for people who want to play games, but not have their time wasted
and another for the kind of guy who is so autistic about his hobby that anyone doing it differently needs to die.
of course youd still be pissed, wouldnt you?
no super exclusive club to be part of anymore.
>>253052739
>>253052546
>>253052357
Why do people get so pissed off over this topic? It's just different lifestyles.
>>253047140
>Lost Izalith ... that titanite demon is a pain in the ass
holy shit this
but i felt it added to the game
trying to run away from that faggot with 100,000~ souls on the line is a great tedious feeling
>>253050623
If the five sequences that preceded it are tedious, they shouldn't be there at all. All challenges in games are going to be of a set length. You wouldn't expect a game to give you a checkpoint every time you landed a hit on a boss, and especially not a mook, for example. Every encounter you pass is part of the challenge of beating a level, and some games decide that the length of time you're expected to not completely screw up for is longer than one fight.
>>253052931
You lifestyle should have no bearing on the game's design. Either adapt or find something else to do.
>>253053027
It doesn't. It's just a game that people who can't afford the time won't play.
>>253052875
Why did you save my post?
>>253044754
>When I beat Ornstein I didn't feel happy
Maybe you just shouldn't play Dark Souls
>>253050828
>Purely
It's aesthetic, sure, but it's also a game design feature, and thus not "only" aesthetic.
The thing I like about hard games is that they force you to be thoughtful in every move you make, but reward you for taking risks. In a game with a good difficulty, you're motivated to be careful or be forced to play a section again, but the game rewards you for doing dangerous stuff by doing more damage more damage or to or killing an enemy/letting you skip something/unlocking stuff/ect.
>>253051538
This is why I bought a PC and buy more indie games. Smaller dev studios cater to cult audiences better. So I can get challenging games like Volgarr the Viking or games that are very specific and are an acquired taste, like Europa Universalis.
The PC is the platform for the enthusiast. The console is the platform for those who want high budget entertainment and filmic experiences.
>>253052546
There's these nifty things called mobile games that caters to your oh so busy lifestyle that totally can not be altered to make time for video games at all.
>>253043838
Seems like you forgot to unlock the shortcuts at the empty spaces.
>>253045165
>>253045662
Regardless of whether combat is good or not, it's not fun to fail and repeat the same shit over and over again.
>>253052931
If you don't have a lot of free time then either play casual games, or just accept that you will struggle to adapt to more demanding, in-depth games and get good.
>>253053184
>game design feature
>animation
I love people trying to use video game terms like they know them.
>>253053162
Because I thought it was funny
>>253052914
>....yes? so?
So you're posting a video completely out of context in a discussion about playing VIDEO GAMES when he's criticizing Lucas for shitty storytelling in a fucking MOVIE.
>that image
What the fuck? Good games only use 1 or 2 checkpoints. One at the beginning of the level and MAYBE one in the middle.
Guy with life here:
Can I just point out that because you apes find it oh so difficult to understand what normal people are trying to communicate, let me put it to you this way.
Wonderful 101 is perfect. The game (depending on difficulty level) is hard, but it also doesnt make you restart a 40 minute long mission because you fucked up something. its framed into frequent enough checkpoints that restarting is never devastating to your time, and its hard enough that you get a good challenge from it, especially if trying to good scores (you punishment for restarting is a huge dip in your score card)
>inb4 people claim its the easiest shit theyve ever [strike]watched videos of[/strike] played
>>253044239
Yet the more you play super meat boy the better you get at it. Games are far more rewarding when getting good at it involves being able to generalize your skills to new game scenarios instead of achieving perfect muscle memory for a very specific situation.
>>253044239
I kind of like the way P* games and others that use a rating system handle this. Taking damage or continuing after death reduces your score or rating. A death or too much damage taken (maybe any damage at all) can mean a restart of a level or chapter to certain players while casual players can just hit continue and restart from right before the fight they died on.
>>253052875
He's right though. It's a generation thing.
Casuals are the new and future gamers. The games released today are the games they enjoy, and we can't say they are having "fake" fun.
20 years ago, gaming was about the challenge. It was about "SCORE". Ever see this word anymore? That's how it started, now it serves other themes and objectives.
We're done, we had our turn, but the casual audience is wider than us now.
>>253053465
Ok, cool.
>>253046448
It was -15% death penalty, so it only took 4 deaths to hit max instead of 6.
>>253046598
You didn't have to return to town, you could kill monsters and each time you did it went down 1%.I can't tell what the fuck is happening to my posts. This is like the third time I've had to post this.
>>253053301
No, I have a 3ds for that.
>>253053476
incredible logic. Ill be careful in the future to not use words that have been spoken by someone else about something else to make any point, regardless of context or effectiveness.
>>253052790
PC gamer here. I fucking hate quicksaves. Quicksave management is such an important but laborious process that it becomes its own meta-level gameplay mechanic. The first times I played Souls I felt exhilarated to never have to worry about saving.
>>253053424
I do get that. Playing Blood Omen right now looking for a fucking savepoint. The shitposting on this topic is just terrible though. There are people in the world who can't (either mentally, physically, or both) afford time to waste on games that require you to wade through hordes of enemies and cutscenes before they can reach a stopping point. I mean, I was the kid who left my NES on on the pause screen, but other people can't handle wasting energy and leaving their system running. I honestly shouldn't expect openmindedness from 4chan though.
>>253053392
>Regardless of whether combat is good or not, it's not fun to fail and repeat the same shit over and over again.
>it's not fun to fail and repeat the same shit over and over again.
>it's not fun to fail
That's the true core of the argument. People can't handle the idea that they might fail, so developers pander to this mentality while still keeping the pretense that the game has some sort of challenge.
>Demon's and Dark Souls have several shortcuts you open to avoid said waves
>Conversely, Dark Souls 2, the weakest game in the series has a comparatively absurd amount of checkpoints
>>253053545
Yes but dark souls doesn't make you trudge through 40 minutes of gameplay again, it's more like 5 to 10 minutes, I can't even think of any modern games that force you through upwards of an hour of progress if you die, besides games without saving of any kind
>>253053545
Not every game needs to be designed to be played in sub-1 hour chunks. The mounting atmosphere and tension in games where death is a real punishment is compelling for people who are lucky enough to have the time to play them. Why would you want to destroy that? If you don't like such games then simply don't play them.
>>253053834
>There are people in the world who can't (either mentally, physically, or both) afford time to waste on games that require you to wade through hordes of enemies and cutscenes before they can reach a stopping point
So they can go and play something else. There are plenty of games to choose from.
>>253053834
"Openmindedness" gets me nothing if casuals start shitting up my games though.
>>253044754
You sound like a little neurotic shit. You're worried about what wonders await you? Just put the game down already if you're not having fun by OnS and pick up candy crush. You'd ruin the experience for everyone else just for a game you don't even enjoy.
>>253053290
>>253053498
>>253053710
I saw that.
>>253053545
>Guy with life here:
>Can I just point out that because you apes
I like how you think this somehow qualifies your post more than anyone else here. Seriously get the fuck over yourselves.
Dark Souls has like a billion checkpoints. Dark Souls 2 has, like, a zillion or more.
While we're on topic, what's the longest you guys have played a game in one sitting (more or less)
I once played monster hunter for 9 hours one day only taking breaks for food
Can't say I've ever wasted more time than that
>>253053798
>ll be careful in the future to not use words that have been spoken by someone else about something else to make any point, regardless of context or effectiveness.
What the fuck are you on about.
You directly used a video that has a completely different context because it's describing shitty storytelling, not the idea that video games are somehow wasting peope's time. It has NO effectivness at all because it's completely fucking irrelavent to the discussion at hand
The area before shit of chaos is the only one I can agree with you
>>253053834
>>253053108
Time isn't an excuse. You invest 3 hours to learn a game one day, you spend your 3 hours for every day of the next week playing it, ie 18 hours of playtime at the cost of 3 hours of learning curve.
You're saying that it's better to consistently only play dumbed down, mediocre games over costing yourself a single "day" of playing needed to learn the mechanics of a game with depth. You really can't lose one monday of mediocre, mildly rewarding, mainly brainless fun for the next 6 days of rewarding, complex and fully satisfying play?
Of course you could, you're just a dumb casual who couldn't enjoy a game like X3 or EU3 no matter how much free time you had; time simply is not a real excuse.
>>253053545
normalfags need to leave and board culture needs to change
>>253054349
I dunno what's the longest, but I remember my first binge was Final Fantasy 7 for 12 hours.
>>253054349
In my first week of WoW I played for like 14 hours a day.
>>253054349
>9 hours
What the fuck?
24 hours straight on CoD4 when I was in highschool
>>253054579
>play dumbed down, mediocre games
Out of the plethora of games in this world, ones that might utilize someone's time are mediocre? Seriously? Are you a walking hyperbole? What's funny is if you read MY posts, I am defending the guy, but I am not the guy that complains about time usage. So quit being an ass.
>>253052714
That's Nintendo, and they have always been babby's first vidya, expecting them to make a hard game is like expecting Dark Souls to have an easy mode, you're not their target demo or close enough that they can flip a few bits and give you what you want, deal with it. Their recent habit has been to make the start as smooth as they can, but then add secret worlds and NG+ content that's completely balls to the wall, which makes sense, but I've usually gotten bored of trudging through easy mode by the time things get interesting.
>>253052953
>>253054547
actually, lost izalith has a hidden bonfire in one of the towers
i never actually found it in my playthrough, i read it later in a guide after beating the level. guess that's what you get for not being a scrub and looking everything up or using Seek Guidance like a faggot
>>253052454
As much as this is bait, there is an interesting point.
Video games are about entertainment, that is their sole reason to exist. Putting difficulty on a pedestal and insisting that making a game difficult thusly means it is good is rather ludicrous. What makes a game good is it's mechanics and how ENTERTAINING IT IS. Entertainment value is a subjective thing and some people may not like hard games, while other will love hard games.
>>253054349
probably skyward sword three days straight
i beat it in like 40~ hours
>>253054349
The longest I went recently was Xenoblade when it released 12 straight hours for a few days in a row. But my absolute longest was was Radient Dawn on Lunatic in Highschool. I stayed up 28 hours.
>>253053545
>what normal people are trying to communicate
I don't care what normal people think.
>>253053108
>It's just a game that people who can't afford the time won't play.
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.
>>253043838
>>253055181
>~40 hours.
>3 Days
MATHS?
>>253054912
>ones that might utilize someone's time are mediocre
Since when did video games become a fucking utility?
And you have the balls to accuse anyone else of using hyperbole.
>>253043838
>the game savescums for you
>its good
>>253054889
I didn't even stop because it felt too long, I just get bored of the same game after too long, I'm sure I've played multiple games in a row for much longer, but because we were talking about length of games I was curious to see how much time people spend
I know a lot of people do, but I've never beaten a single game in one sitting...
>>253053967
Why sub 1-hour?
and how is it not equally punishing to simply break the atmosphere by dying in the first place?
My first play of MGRR was on hard mode, When I died at a boss, I restarted at that boss
What was my punishment? Well for one, I lost my progress in the fight, two, I lost my items id used before, and worst of all I was taken completely out of the fantasy. The atmosphere that the fight set up, the intensity of the duel, the rhythm I had going in the fight, all broken, shattered because I fucked up.
The difference between that, and the same punishment plus a whole level of slashing up trash mobs? My time being wasted, my items being refilled, and my patience all together wearing thin.
Dark Souls had me quit and uninstall about half way through so I could play LA Noir instead
A game where again, the punishment for failure is breaking the fantasy. Nothing like getting told youre a shitty cop to ruin your detective fantasy, certainly more effective than being made to restart the case. (which you actually have to do if you choose to un-fuck everything)
>>253053623
>>253053545
People who think of score just think of the number. Like that's all that matters, just increasing the number.
You're playing with a different set of rules, that's what playing for score is. You're playing a game of tee-ball, I'm playin Home Run Derby.
I mean you can play however you want if you think that's fun, ruinin the game, just go ahead and ruin it. You can pretend you like it if you want. I won't stop you from pretendin. Just keep on playin tee-ball.
>>253055393
Since when did I say they were a utility? A game that may be more accessible to people on a limited schedule are not:
1. Always mediocre.
2. Considered a utility.
It just so happens to align with their needs. Please stfu if you are just trying to create arguments. I know you'll want the last word after this, but you won't get another response out of me.
>>253054349
I played WoW for around 30 straight hours once back in BC when my RL friends wanted me to roll on their server and I was leveling to catch up to them.
Other than that, I think I may have had a comparable session in Dragon's Dogma when I went to BBI for the first time as a warrior. That one was probably 20-25 hours though. Maybe I did something similar with Monster Hunter too, I honestly can't remember because I'm a NEET and I never have to keep track of time.
>>253054424
If you had no idea what that was from...how would you know anything but "stop wasting my time"?
is me posting this in reply to your post (as opposed to in reply to the exact situation that caused the initial reaction) going to piss you off?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osMSoXl__58
The difficulty of Dark Souls has nothing to do with the lack of checkpoints. The difficulty comes from a combination of the combat mechanics, level design, enemy design, and limited healing items.
I can see what you're trying to say. I just think the "tediousness", as you so bluntly put it, isn't inherently a bad thing. It can help with the tension, immersion and overall enjoyment that comes with beating a boss and progressing.
It works in Souls games. Wouldn't work in Devil May Cry. Works with Mega-Man. Wouldn't work in a twitch-reaction platformer, like Super Meat Boy.
On a similar note, I also firmly believe that Skyrim would have been a better game if you could only save at certain points, and it was designed around this. Like setting up camp, sleeping at an inn, etc.
The journey from one point to another is one of the only neat things about that game, but quicksaving every five seconds, and the ability to do so, removes any difficulty, tension and excitement from the combat, exploration and general questing. Trigger a trap? Reload. Having a hard time killing some dude? Reload. Broke a lockpick, got noticed pickpocketing, and made a bad choice dialog-wise (as if that would ever have consequences in the first place)? Reload, reload and reload.
>>253055707
>breaking the fantasy.
>A fucking video game
>Not just that, but a video game where constant revival and the struggle to battle constantly against great odds is actually a part of the fantasy's canon
Stop playing video games if you don't want things that are "Too Gamey". Novels and films are more your speed. Well, when you actually learn how to read, they may be.
>>253055748
Go to bed, Rob.
>>253054349
I spent 6 hours looking at the same puzzle in SpaceChem.
Now THAT is a difficult game.
>>253045991
true artificial difficulty was just something /v/ made up to complain about hard games they couldn't beat I really didn't expect people to take it seriously. It wasn't talked about before Dark souls came out and /v/ claimed it was full of it. Yet demon souls is similar in difficulty and it was never mentioned when it came out
>>253050180
He must be referencing the light world and its story. Trying to go for 100% tested my patience quite a bit.
>you never turn off the system
You show me a normal trying to play The Kid warp zone alone, let alone the dark world cotton ally, without walking away. It takes a dedication and skill to get through some of the hardest shit the game actually throws at you. Thats not even including some of the insane shit on the user made levels.
>>253056206
Go play Mars Matrix.
>>253056180
Immersion is important and the better a game does with that, the more entertaining it is. Designers can't just ignore that factor.
>>253055707
A lot of the boss fights in MGRR last as long as it takes to respawn at a checkpoint and run back to the boss and then fight it in Dark Souls. Monsoon was fucking endless.
>>253056180
there was indication I were illiterate?
How odd, as im certain ive been using words this whole time.
youre just REALLY into your broken and pointless ways, arent you? its like you cant even read what im saying, just knowing im not supporting you is enough to load default responses.
>>253056273
Huh. I guess you're correct.
>>253056450
...so you DONT want to be playing a game for that whole time?
you just want to run around instead?
Have you considered MMOs?
>>253056458
>I were illiterate
That doesn't exactly help your case. But at least your are responding to posts on a message board.
>>253056407
>Immersion is important and the better a game does with that, the more entertaining it is.
If you are incapable of immersion without factoring in the fact that you are playing a fucking video game, you are the problem here, not the developers.
>Designers can't just ignore that factor.
The video game, CANONICALLY, has revival and weakening upon revival is a very, VERY central aspect of the game's lore and story.
>>253056458
>there was indication I were illiterate?
Well yes, considering Dark Souls has the hollowing phase as a static element of the game's world. When you die, you come back to a bonfire. This applies to both the player and other NPC's in the world unless gameplay specifics call for them to permanently die. If you didn't actually realize this was a part of the game, and are complaining about this, you are either incapable of reading in a game, or incapable of understanding why the developers put these things into the game.
I don't even fucking like Souls games. I just hate retards like yourself.
>>253056576
I'm saving this, and to be more specific I think it was around when the PC released happened not the console release I could be wrong though.
>>253056017
>If you had no idea what that was from..
Nigga, what the fuck is wrong with you? Nowhere in any of my post was it even implied I didn't know what the video was from. Not only did I explain what the point of it was, but I even pointed out it was about Lucas in the Plinkett video.
It's like you're intentionally trying to be as dense as possibe. Maybe it's because you think it's it's funny and you're just "rusing" me. It really isn't, it's just fucking sad.
>>253044754
I do experience this, but I'm right there with you about O&S. Whenever I talk to a Souls fan about the games, I literally use your words to describe my post-boss experiences
>>253056576
actually I believe it was shitposting that started it, as the shitposters would use it to troll the DS threads
