Do you think Creighton is really a murderer? We know for a fact that Pate's a cheat, a liar, and a betrayer, but I never saw Creighton do any murdering, aside from the one I helped him with.
creighton is just as much a psycho as pate is. Whoever you kill is the innocent one.
>>246385402
Neither of them are innocent. The only correct option is to kill Pate, get the reward from Creighton, then kill him too.
DEEPEST LORE
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>>246385402
It's more like they're both criminals.
>>246385575
>Mentioning the story of two characters with actual, non-implied, right-there-in-the-game history is now grounds for "DEEPEST LORE" comments
You know, if there were some mention of VaatiVidya in this thread, I'd get it. But I mean, I don't think you're even using that joke right.
![1401856590801[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/r1TJ8bP.png "1401856590801[1].png")
I like how Creighton's armor reminds me of Nameless Rank and File Soldier
why do npc's permanently die when they should be spawning as hollows?
>>246384215
time is distorted. creighton pate and cale are all the same person
>>246386507
Perfect
>>246386792
This is something I don't know about Dark Souls: can you come to Lordran/Drangleic without being cursed/undead? Or is everyone there either some kind of ancient creature, or cursed?
>>246386792
Gameplay mechanics.
I think its more that they disappear from your timeline (as time is distorted yadda yadda). So they still exist in their world as a hollow, but the link to your world is severed. Same way that players leave your world when they die.
>>246386990
You could but there would be no point besides mad loots. The reason people came to Drangleic was to cure the curse. Lordan was pretty much the epicenter of the whole beginning of the cycle.
Yeah fuck Pate, who does that faggot think he is, helping me kill bosses, giving me his armor, and warning me about traps.
>>246384215
They both are nuts. Pates not an in your face killer though. Like patches he'll let the environment sort you out promising you riches and happily stripping your corpse. Creighton seems like a straight psycho. Boon line is both are killers, they just use different weapons.
>>246387646
What makes you think Creighton is a killer? He's out for revenge on Pate but there's nothing suggesting that he's a killer.
>in b4 Cale said so
Doesn't Creighton's armor description say something like about how it's a high quality reproduction of the Mirrah military uniform?
Is there significance to that? Or just one of those trademark Dark Souls weird meaningless details thrown in for the sake of fuck all?
>>246388001
It just means he went around murdering people disguised as a Mirrah footsoldier. That's all.Creighton is a 1:1 copy of the first google image results for "hospitaller"
>>246388001
The idea is that Creighton isn't actually from Mirrah, he just wears a replica armor.
It contradicts what Cale says about a murderer from Mirrah called Cray something.
>>246388372
yeah but if his armor is a replica, and cale saw his armor, he'd assume he's from mirrah too
>>246388698
Cale said he saw a guy who looked just like the murderer. But Creighton wears a replica of the typical soldier armor with facemask and everything. He'd look like a nobody.
On the other hand, Pate was in the same area as Cale and not wearing a mask. Connect the dots.
if you kill creighton does he drop his armor, or can you only get it via the fight?
>>246389081
He drops the mask, I think you can buy the rest from the merchant hag.
>>246387646
What? Pate even warns you about the dangers.
>>246389394
>being this clueless
>>246387894
He tries to murder you shitface.
>>246389714
When does Creighton try to murder you?
>>246385550
Sounds like you're the only psychopath here
>>246386507
10/10
>>246389854
Well, to be fair, there is a point when he tries to murder you, but only after you swing a sword into his face.
In short, that poster is a retard.
>>246389854
he directs you to open a chest he booby trapped
>>246390030
Turns out the real killer is the protag
>>246390098
>"a chest he (creighton) booby trapped"
>voice of the recently killed Pate laughs at you when you try and open it
Are you completely retarded?
>>246390194
Whoever you let live is the one who talks
YOU are the actual retard, anon
Cale is the real murderer.
The first time you meet him he tries rolling a boulder down on you. He then sends you to a mansion to get merked by a skeleton in the basement.
He later tells you that he saw a murderer from Mirrah. He's trying to make you believe Pate/Creighton is a murderer to hide the fact that he is the true killer.
>>246386990
they retconned how the curse worked in DaSII. it use to drive people insane and turn them hollow, but now it makes you lose your memory but you keep your sanity. Though for some reason the undead blacksmith doesn't... ya das2 is just fucked
>>246390289
The point is, it wasn't booby trapped by the one you let live. Whoever is killed tries to kill you with the trap in revenge.
When you let Creighton live and kill Pate, Pate tries to kill you saying "This should leave a scar"
If I missed them on my first time through Tseldora without noticing them, does that mean one of them killed the other and the event is forfeit for me? Because I later checked the room where they should be fighting and it's empty.
Why the fuck do people hate on Pate again? He never actually does anything to you, and his 'betrayal' at the end is exactly what Creighton does.
He's a complete subversion on Patches. He may be shifty but he only ever helps you and gives you advice.
>>246390098
You mean the same chest Pate directs you to?
>>246390371
What makes you think it makes you keep your sanity? Look at all the hollows, they're just as retarded as before.
>>246390413
He only does that to win your trust so he could more easily stab you in the back.
>>246390396
That's Creighton saying that, retard.
>>246390396
>The guy who just died says something
No seriously
Are you actually retarded?
>>246390412
It might. Are you sure you exhausted both of their dialogues before for them to actually show up?
>>246390307
Shit is deep, I never even thought about connecting that boulder to Cale.
>>246390483
>He only does that to win your trust so he could more easily stab you in the back.
Which he never does
>but muh chest
The same chest Creighton directs you too. He even says the same line.
They're both assholes, but Pate actually helps you out the whole time, where Creighton says he was about to kill you both times you speak to him.
>>246384215
Creighton is my man.
Pates a slick talking mongrel and needs to die.
>>246390194
Well, (not the same guy) he could be laughing because he sees you fell for the same trap Pate was victim to himself, thus starting their rivalry.Deepest Lore
>>246390586
So Creighton is up front about him wanting to kill you and Pate is a sneaky asshole trying to trick you into it. Why does that make him better?
>>246390413
He tries to get a murderer to kill you in his place.
Theres a reason he gives you his armor.
>>246384215
Creighton of the House Baratheon
>>246390396
>>246390732
Because at least he offers to help you throughout your journey. He even warns you about trusting him too much.
>>246390491
Go replay that part, when you kill Pate it's him saying it.
Otherwise explain why Creighton would act nice afterwards and even give me his armor set.
>>246389394
>oi m8 there's a ring in there or something watch the traps and hope ya find it! :^)
>>246390838
see
>>246390771
Are you seriously this dumb? It was CREIGHTON saying it, they both say the same line.
>>246390808
If someone is planning on killing me, I'd want to take care of them as fast as possible rather than give them the opening to work their sociopathomancy on me
>>246390760
Does Creighton attack you if you talk to him wearing the pate set?
>turns out there both just out for treasure
That fucking easy.
>>246390307
1) There is no indication that Cale rolls that boulder. An undead soldier dies as the boulder starts rolling, and as we know they're not that bright in this one.
2) He tells you not to go in the basement as there is something in there that will kill you.
Do you even pay attention?
>>246390961
He never tries to kill you himself. He'll just offer you situations for you to get yourself killed.
If you just ignore him and leave you'll be fine.
>>246390965
Havent tried. Its pates dialogue that gives it away in the windmill.
>>246391050
And Creighton will just be like, "fuck off I'll kill you" which is a lot more trustworthy than "hey bruv, I'm your friend right? :^)"
>>246390371
And for some raisin only a part of Lucatiels face is hollowed, which makes no god damn sense whatsoever.
Its like they didn't even think anything through and just slapped shit together that they thought was cool.
>>246391128
I'm giving that a try on my next play through
>>246391163
>yeah mate we're best friends, thanks for helping me kill Pate
>o btw you can have my chest, its totally not boobytrapped :3c
Creighton is even worse than Pate.
>tfw there are no good feels npcs in ds2
>>246391032
Why do hollows or other monsters ignore NPCs?
Creighton is using a very unique weapon that is not his at all, it belongs to another, entirely diffrent, actually named person.
if he murdered said person? who knows.
>pate gives you shit and helps you out
>is smart, doesn't want to wander into traps but warns the player about them
pate did nothing wrong
>>246391234
You can tell Creighton ain't right when you find him muttering to himself in Shaded Ruins, but Pate keeps up his long con rather well and does the exact same thing you just said, making him the bigger of dicks.
>>246391183
This is what happens when you put your b team in charge while anyone who was worth a damn went to work on project beast
>>246391247
Benhart is happy in his ignorance.
I'd like to know how he was able to enter the Giant's memory though, and why his questline ends there. Like what the fuck is he doing sitting in a giant's memory?
>>246391247
Gavlaan wheels, deals and feels
>>246391191
If it does work that would really be impressive. I mean if you have pates ring equipped he says something but I cant remember all the things you need to do.
>>246391247
>Father blacksmith can't remember rock collector daughter
>Rock collector daughter can't remember father blacksmith
>They just sit there in Majula, never interacting.
That shit's fucking hella sad.
>>246391317
except that little thing with the bomb and whatnot
>>246391369
Youre all on the same adventure. In a different time/dimension.
He made it to the throne of want. Vengarl also fought the ancient dragon for whatever reason.
>>246391421
The blacksmith remembers her and is happy she's finally somewhere he can keep an eye on her. I'm pretty sure.
>>246391421
Doesn't the blacksmith have a line about his daughter coming back?
Pretty sure he said it once
>>246391369
He just bumbled in there like everything else in his life, the man'll believe a big sword painted blue is magical after all. Probably got really drunk and ended up there.
>>246391450
he probably didn't know
creighton gives it to you too
>>246391515
>>246391526
He remembers her but seems too obsessed with his work to talk to her.
>>246391506
This is what I got out of it. Benhart had was the MC of his own universe and was keeping pace with you.
>>246391614
So they have the same key to the same shit, they're both cocklords and were in cahoots before Pate tried to nigger Creighton with a gate setting off his homicidal rage tendency.
>>246391421
Lenigrast recognizes Chloanne, she doesn't recognize him though, she just refers to him as "that hollow" and is worried about how he is looking at her.
>>246391614
They worked together. That was theyre old bolt hole as creighton puts it or pied de terrework houseas pate puts it.
They are both jsut greedy treasure hunters. Undead be damned.
>>246391552
to be fair, his sword looks exactly like the Moonlight Great sword, its just fatter.
infact, his sword probably goes on to become the King's Field Moonlight Great Sword, if Dark souls really is a prequel to King's Field 4 like all the hints suggest.
in that game you take the sword, which is quite ordinary and weak, and you find a room in an ancient castle that is very hard to get into (takes like 9 dragon eyes) and you thrust the blade into the heart of holy magic and when you pull it out it truly becomes everything it was supposed to be, completely through chance.
so Benhart IS right, just not right now
>>246391729
>my m8 p8 tricked me with a g8
>>246391552
Now I'm imagining Benhart wandering into the courtyard of the Ancient Dragon, and the dragon saying "uh... hm. I guess here's this. not sure why you're here, but whatever." and hands him an ashen mist heart, and Benhart absentmindedly wanders off and straight into the memory of a giant.
>>246391698
I didn't get that vibe from him. Although he seems very serious about settling down and work, it seemed moreso that he enjoyed that lifestyle because it enabled him to stay close to things that mattered most to him, like his daughter. She was probably the whole reason he came to Dangleic.
They probably don't talk, because she doesn't know who he is. But I think just keeping her in his sight is good enough for him, and in the end that makes it a warm albeit bittersweet ending.
>>246391506
They actually BOTH are at the Throne of Want.
>>246391287
Because they didn't think it through. In any other From game like this, a la Kings Field or Shadow Tower every NPC is in a safe area where enemies don't spawn. Or in the case of Dark Souls they're locked up like Logan or they're hiding/have killed some like Onion Knight whose name I conveniently forgot. Who I might add eventually does get attacked.
But for this one they just didn't think it through. I'm 100% positive they just added shit because they felt like it, and not because they had a plan.
Gavlaan and the sorcery merchant in No-Mans Wharf are completely surrounded by monsters. Gavlaan is even in the same room as two. I've never seen anything like that and I've played just about every From RPG there is.
>>246391921
I want whatever Benhart is drinking if he was able to contend with those mace Drakekeepers while blackout drunk, holy shit.
>>246391949
Yeah. I guess it wasnt implied.
Okay faggots
Is that actually Ornstein at the Cathedral?
>>246390731
I just had this thought as well, maybe the trap was set by one of them to kill the other. Whoever trapped it, Pate/Creighton's comments might just be snide remarks about your greed for actually looting the chests.
>>246391979
Nah, it was really obnoxious in DaS1. There were several instances where monsters just ignored NPCs who stood there.
In DeS, that shit didn't happen.
>>246391390
And is nowhere near as interesting or charming as Seigmeyer.
>>246389081
If you kill Pate you get a free set of Creighton's armor with Creighton's gratitude for helping him out.
>>246391183
I figured that was just to show that she's pretty far into the hollowing process. We see some others that are losing their minds, but it's possible that it hasn't happened through repeated deaths, while that's almost certainly the case for Lucatiel.
>>246392058
No nigga. You killed Ornstein already.
>>246392058
His corpse, reanimated with hexes.
>>246391698
She doesn't remember him at all. If he went up to her and started talking to her it would probably freak her the fuck out.
>>246391862
what are the other hints that it's a prequel to KF4?
>>246391287
>>246391979
Gavlaan is actually an friendly enemy.
Sorcery merchant is out on the edge of a dock far away from enemies meditating.
The boss souls sorcerer in the bastille is the best example, but even he can be explained if you want.
>>246392117
But the blacksmith just sits in Majula undead all day erry day.
Its like a Wookie on Endor, it don't make no sense.
>>246391698
Hollows become obsessed with something. He realizes his daughter is there, but he can't tear himself from his work because he's hollowed.
>>246392195
>the people that resurrected him are the B-Team
>Ok guys if we're gonna make Lordran2 good we need to take notes from Lordran1, so we're just gonna ressurrect Ornstein and make him fight
That's why he sucks compared to the first one, they did a shit job and his body was falling apart at the joints
What keeps the main character from hollowing completely?
Is there a canonical reason that you can die 10,000 times, and still maintain your grip on sanity, or at least have enough presence of mind to remember your goals and relationships with NPCs?
Or is it that were the story out of the players hands, the main character wouldn't ever die?
>>246392257
But Gavlaan is a human. He comes from a nomadic tribe. His people have just gone hollow.
>>246384215
Both of them are murdererous bastards. Creighton seems to be the more straight forward psychopath towards his enemies while Pate is more a trickster.
It would make sense for them to have teamed up at some point for mutual profit. Pate could trick victims into some trap or bad situation and any who survived Creighton could straight up murder. They may even have both disguised themselves as Mirrah Footsoldiers which might explain why both routes give you the set since both would have a chance to have such a set in their possession.
Obviously they have a disagreement, Pate tries to backstab his good old murder buddy. Pate fails but escapes successfully, long enough passes that he feels confident enough to ditch his Mirrah disguise. But Cale spots him, perhaps and tells you and you know the rest.
>>246392209
Nashandra in general, she is quite clearly the Dark One of the Abyss and her design was based directly off the Idol that Stares into the Dark from King's Field 4.
and the entire plot is about how the Dark one, long long ago, tricked the civilizations into opening up the Abyss (which the dark one both made, and is made of) and it consumed that civilization, and every civilization that is built over top of it, like a layer cake, too get consumed in it.
eventually this is focalized into a single object, the Idol that Stares into the Dark, any nation that holds it will just sink right into the Abyss, and the Idol always finds its way somewhere else, MOST of the world is destroyed by the time of the game.
your player character is given the idol by a stranger and you head to the Ancient City to return it.
Dark Souls 2 basically took this idea and fleshed it out, it is essentially the backstory to King's Field 4.
>>246392457
You're the chosen undead.
>>246392125
Or did we? You do realize most of Anor Londo was an illusion, including Gwynevere, and that the Old Dragonslayer is not only using all of Ornstein's gear but is also seemingly hollowed and disheveled and using dark magic rather than lightningjust like Artorias was after traversing the Abyss? How do we know the real Ornstein didn't follow him? Also note that when you kill Ornstein first in the O&S battle, Smough has absolutely no hesitation before smashing Ornstein with the hammer. Don't you think he would have had at least a LITTLE remorse or sign of grief after his one remaining friend and partner is killed in front of him? Seems a little suspicious.
>>246392457
In Dark1 its the dark sign, I don't recall if its in Dark2 as I never had the urge to really go through my inventory as everything I picked up was damn near worthless.
>>246391979
Don't forget Straid and his bullshit room.
>>246392457
the MC hollows when the player gives up on the game!
>>246392457
One goes Hollow when they finally lose all purpose (see the Crestfallen Warrior in DaS1), it doesn't matter how many times you die or how many souls you lose.
>>246392472
I thought the Gyrm were the Drangleic equivalent of dwarves, not humans.
>>246392587
They weren't friends. At best they had some respect for each other's strength.
>>246392560
so is the dark one a reference to the protag of DaS or the pygmy or Manus or anything like that?
(that being possibly the first event that opened the abyss)
>>246392457
The player character never hollows because you are continuing to play as them. As long as you keep playing, they have the hope necessary to remain human.
>>246387894
His armor suggests he killed someone for it.
>>246392587
Smough was a psychopath who ground up the bones of his enemies for delicious powder. No indication that they were friends either.
>>246392560
Both Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 are a sort of continuation of Kings Field. Its been a while since I've played them, but I believe Shadow Tower and Eternal Ring connect to the Abyss as well.
>>246392058
>>246392195
>>246392125
Actually hes another nameless hero that thought the old dragonslayer had some awesome shit and then decided to post up for the cathedral of blue as a guard because he thought it was an awesome gig. The real question is he hollowed? He guards the sentinels so I cant say for sure.
What if he isnt hollowed does that mean hes in his own world like every other npc? When you kill him are you just severing the bond like in DaS1?
Time and space are convoluted between npcs so no one really knows.
>>246392829
No it doesn't, it suggests it's a good fake
>>246392758
I guess that can be one way to look at it, but if you kill Smough first, Ornstein's reaction is quite different. Some people attribute this to Smough's supposed resentment of Ornstein, but that can be seen as pure conjecture that is based solely on that one four second scene in the middle of the fight. He doesn't even think about smashing him for a second. He just immediately does it.
>>246392843
more like prequels, by the time of King's field the world is fucking over son.
and the Shadow Tower games are set in some weird sort of "modern times" complete with guns and everything, you just find your way into some hellish dimensional leftovers.
>>246392776
the Dark One is Nashandra, quite clearly, due to her design being heavily taken from the Idol that Stares.
>>246392943
Right right, my bad. Haven't played it awhile.
Game got kinda boring to be honest.
>>246392445
Uh, no?
He sucks because he's OLD
OLD Dragonslayer, dumpass
>>246392620
>>246392782
This. Over and over it is explained that an undead goes hollow when they lose all hope. So long as you keep playing, you effectively never go hollow.
>>246392587
O&S being an illusion in Dark Souls makes sense for when either one transform when the other is killed.
>>246392663
Did you even read their armor or weapons? Also, they're the same size as humans. So either humans are dwarves too, or they're a nomadic tribe of humans. Either way they're more than likely the same race as the player character.
>Bernhart's "Fake" Moonlight Great Sword becomes the "real" MGS during the gameplay time of King's Field 4.
>the prophecy that a real man would "unleash its potential" was completely true, just not what you'd expect
>you forcibly turn it from an ordinary sword into a holy weapon.
>>246392991
Smough was a savage and a cannibal. Why wouldn't he leap at the chance for more power, especially when his life is in danger?
Ornstein, on the other hand, was one of Gwyn's four knights, so he'd show some respect to his fallen comrade no matter how much he actually hated him.
>>246393026
>the Dark One is Nashandra, quite clearly, due to her design being heavily taken from the Idol that Stares.
Well yeah but could it be that the pygmy (having been there at the initial creation of the world as it is) or the protag of DaS1 are the original people that allowed the abyss to spill out.
Nashandra could just be someone that appeared later as a champion of the abyss.
Even Manus seems like an earlier entity than Nashandra.
>>246393159
It says that they were a nomadic tribe banished by humans. It's why they attack you, because they hate regular joes like you.
>>246392369
He has passion for his work
and concern for his daughter
that keeps him sane
>>246393275
>>246393026
>>246393026
I didn't mean continuation as a sequel, just the central idea of the Abyss swallowing a kingdom.
And I'm pretty sure Shadow Tower is connect to Kings Field and Dark Souls. Or at least the second one is. Because you are for a fact traversing the Abyss. It also shares the idea of fragmented time a la Dark Souls.
>>246392832
True, there is that aspect of Smough's personality, and again the frequent theory that he resented Ornstein. Personally I don't see how Ornstein being "resurrected" would make any sense, or how someone would manage to get his armor if it actually is smashed to pieces like the first game would suggest, so I feel like the heavily worn equipment the old Dragonslayer bears as well as the obvious indications that he is corrupted by the Abyss in much the same manner as Artorias all imply that he is most likely the real Ornstein and the one in Londo was not.
>Artorias traverses the Abyss
>goes crazy
>MC joins the Pilgrims of Dark, traverses the Abyss 3 times
>Still fine
??????
>>246393092
>dumpass
>dump
Come on now.
>>246393343
Or it could just be that they're hollow.
>>246393392
But he's sitting there undead all day erry day. While half of Lucatiel's face is going undead. Shit makes no god damn sense is all I'm saiyan.
>>246393480
there might be two sets of the armor
easily explained
or, more likely... toejam and earl were an illusion
>>246393575
This has been explained.
>>246384215
Pate is the 'real' Creighton.
The Creighton in your picture is just some dude that has the same name.
It doesn't really matter though, since one is a dick and the other is insane.
>>246393430
Is her plan to turn everything into the abyss (through the Throne of Want)?
>>246393609
>>246393637
Lucatiel is slowly going hollow because she's losing her memories dying all the time.
The blacksmith is just old as fuck sitting in Majula getting dem souls for blacksmithin.
>>246393665
Can you explain again?
>>246393575
You left out the part where Artorias attempted to fight and was defeated by MANUS, THE FATHER OF THE ABYSS.
>>246393275
Nashandra/Manus/Pygmy are essentially the same being, and seperate beings at the same time.
they are the Dark Soul, the smallest shard of the Lord Soul turned black, which spawned Humanity.
this also spawns the Abyss, which is the most prevelant running theme in the Souls/King's Field series, that of an Entropic evil (sort of) Semi-Conscience being and force, being both a singular entity and a high-mind-esque force at the same time.
this is true in every game the Abyss is in (which is every game except Demon's Souls) there is always an Abyss and a Pseudo-Being that spawns it.
Manus, Nashandra, and The Dark One (and presumably, but not seen, the Pygmy) all serve the same function, to be the final entropic end of everything, if there is one running theme in every game in this series, is that of the forces of good despately fighting, but ultimately simply buying more time for the next hero, to stave off the Abyss, the unbeatable, always looming threat, for all time until a hero fails.
>>246393575
Artorias traversed the abyss to challenge Manus itself who is pretty much the final boss of the abyss. In DaS 2 you're simply taking a vacation into the abyss and sort of "mastering" it, plus you have a very experienced old geezer who is like a modern day Darkwraith who acts as your guide/mentor while Artorias just YOLO'd his way in with no help. On top of that the player character in DaS 1 is able to enter Manus' abyss area untouched even without the ring from Sif.
>>246393820
>he didn't read the item descriptions
>>246393701
yes, that is her plan, to snuff out the Light and let the Abyss become all that is.
infact, that is the plan of every single "villian" in the Souls/King's field series, see my post above this one.
>>246393637
He's just that focused. Hollowing happens when you start to forget your purpose and start to lose hope. On top of that, he doesn't really seem to care one way or another what happens, and buries himself in his work, so it's possible that he really doesn't know or care about the world around him. The job is all that matters.
>>246390586
>>246391163
>>246391234
Crieghton is on edge that Pate is gonna sneak up on him and off him.
He laughs when you fall for Pates booby trapped chest because he's an asshole.
>>246393701
Shanalotte says using the throne is linking the fire, so no, it seems she tries to wreck your shit before you can link it.
>>246393701
I'd imagine that's exactly it.
As the protagonist, you simply seem to cook like Gwyn and possibly many other monarchs did in the past. But Nashandra, being a being of the Abyss and Darkness, obviously something would be significantly different in the event that she could somehow enter it.
It's very possible that it's literally impossible to enter without fulfilling some form of requirement, and she even tried to enter in the past to no avail. So she would guide you down there in the hopes that you could open the way for her and allow her in, but you snuff her out before she gets her chance.
>>246386507
Made me laugh like a little bitch/10
>>246393858
Okay. Thanks for explaining that.
>>246394003
By why does she want the Want then?
>>246385402
There is absolutely no difference at all. No matter what.
They literally both set you up and say the exact same thing afterward no matter what.
The whole story arc between the two is a complete waste of time.
>>246384215
Does melentia sell me his axe if I kill him? I want to duel wield them and I don't want to waste a bonfire ascetic if I can just get it that way
>>246393858
>implying the Abyss/Dark is evil
f*cking sheep
>>246394000
>He laughs when you fall for Pates booby trapped chest because he's an asshole.
Pretty much this. Creighton's a crass fellow. He's also violent and a little bit mad. He thinks it's funny that you almost got your ass blown up because he's a dick.
That said, he's no fucking Pate. Pate needed to die.
>>246393870
CU was pretty badass considering he killed old Gods, dragons, high ranking knights, and Manus himself.
>>246394137
Because no Flame means lots of Dark. Remember thegoodending from DaS1 was you walking away from the flame
>>246393665
Artorias isn't human. Elizabeth explains Artorias was vulnerable to the dark, moreso than humans because "there was nary a trace of dark in him".
And you, who has the Dark souls, has quite a bit of resistance to the Dark, giving you a huge advantage. Likely just being in the Abyss was killing Artorias.
>>246384215
Pate is the fake Creighton and Creighton is the real deal, and the Real Creighton is Pissed that some asshole stole his identity and is framing him for murders, the Ring of Thorns was his ring, after all, and Pate took it to identify as Creighton, a man 'without a face'
>Talk to character.
>Their lips don't even move.
>>246386507
>you can't get notOrnstein's armor
What the fuck, From. Getting the set would have answered questions about him.
>>246394241
What did Pate do to deserve death?
>>246394308
What is Artorius then?
>>246394330
Same laziness expressed through all the Soul's games.
>>246394232
well, no and yes, as EVERY game has shown us, it simply ends everything there is, its Entropy given a mind.
is Entropy evil? no, but it isn't good, and it isn't good for anything, especially out of control, the Abyss is the all consuming end of it, and "It" is everything.
unless your some doomsday cult, or some feelgood dark-hippie like the old-fuck in the chair, embracing the Dark is insane
>>246394175
Its not a waste of time, its how fucking morals work. They hate each other and are so alike.
>>246394424
Fucked with Creighton.
>>246394439
A giant like Gough
>>246394403
Which is exactly why we can't. Just wait until the notOolacile dlc where we can fight the other 3 notKnights
>>246394439
Never explained. Probably the same race as Gwyn and his silver knights.
>>246394241
I helped Pate because I liked his voice actor
>>246392587
But we get the guy's soul. How can we get his soul if we only killed an illusion?
>>246394439
whatever Demi-God race that makes up most of Lodran, they outright refer to you as "human" implying they are not.
>>246394424
He's a meanie head.
>>246394439
They're all giants. Even the grill, despite being small, she was technically one of the Giants as well
>>246394559
Most of Gwyn's kingdom at least
>>246394532
I thought you got their fragment of Gwyn's soul when killed in Anor Londo. In Heide, however, you get the Dragonslayer's actual soul.
>>246394514
Gough is kawaii as fuck, biggest bro ever.
>>246394617
giants are separate, they are "the gods" (not actual all powerful gods, but more like Thor "Gods")
>>246394439
A God. all of the large humanoids in the Souls series are "Gods." As in, a larger, more powerful race than humans. Did you notice that Anor Londo is too big for the Chosen Undead? That's not shitty art direction. It was built for the God race, not man.
>>246394453
DS1 Blacksmith
>>246393480
Havel's knights all had his ring, and preumably his armor, who's to say Ornstein's squad didn't match
>>246394701
must of sucked to be gwyndolin and the firekeeper then
>>246394646
You get an "old dragonslayer's" soul, Ornstein had a whole squad of guys who specialized in dragonslaying like he did, he was just top dog
>>246394516
Come to think about it, you can't get some of the boss armors in game
>one man takes out every major player including all their fabled knights (sans QTassasin and BigBroGough)
jesus fuck, its really quite astounding, its some straight up "TONY STARK BUILT THAT IN A CAVE" shit.
>>246394880
>theyre will never be bed of chaos armor dlc
>>246394884
>not taking out the QTassasin so you can masquerade as her through a NG+
>>246394884
Well thats just becayse you can just keep coming back to try to kill them even if you die.
>>246394852
But you can use that soul to make his spear. The spear's lightning elemental, not dark like when you fight him. That seems to imply that it's the original Ornstein, unless you're saying every member of his squad, if he even had one, had a boss-level soul from which you could make unique weaponry.
>>246394773
Because Ornstein was never stated to have a squad.
>>246394823
Gwyndolin probably has an easy time because he floats about with his magic. He was a very small person, but that's what happens when you are raised with an effeminate pattern of living when you are a magical being.
The firekeepers more than likely had a rough time wandering, but they were almost assuredly pampered due to their incredible usefulness in society, so I could see them getting carried about on chariots, palanquins, or simply by the other "gods" of Anor Londo.
Fire God Flann = Old Iron King
>>246394884
Most of them are hollow and at a fraction of their potential strength. Prime Gwyn or Artorias would probably wrekt everyone with just a stare.
>>246394698
Wait a minute, HOLD UP.
If people like Artorias, Gwyn, Havel, etc are part of this separate human race, how come Gwyn and Havel got cursed? They don't have any of the Dark Soul in them.
>>246392114
so If I kill pate in giants, and then find creighton in the woods, he will give me the armor, or will this only trigger from the brightstone cove encounter?
>>246395000
Ornstein fled following Gwynevere and the rest of the residents of Anor Londo to find a new home.
He hollowed and the rest of Heide fell and bam, Dark Souls II comes along.
>>246394463
To the point they both give you the same key and then say the exact same fucking dialogue when you open the rigged chest? The exact same dialogue, word for word?
Not to mention you can get all their stuff in one playthrough (actually multiple copies of Pate's) so there's literally no reason at all to chose one over the other?
That's just shit-tier design, bro.
>>246394884
WITH A BOX OF TITANITES
>>246395106
they used their soul to keep the flame going or something like that so it burnt out
they weren't technically hollow in the same sense the normal humans were
>>246394884
The hero comes generally hundreds or thousands of years after their kingdom has fallen to ruin, most of them are essentially mindless Zombies compared to their most powerful forms, and you have been absorbing the souls of countless undead, demons, and other monsters over the course of the game, and they are STILL extremely powerful and can kill you in a few strikes even with the best armors you can muster.
I can imagine fighting Gwyn or Artorias at their peak strength would be literally impossible.
>>246394617
What if Gwyn and Artorias and Ornstein and all that aren't actually giants, but just humans and you're also human but a different breed of human? Kinda like how there are 6 limbed dragons and 4 limbed dragons (wyverns).
>>246395210
But would you do their story line at least once?
>>246395250
Peak Artorias can probably turtlepoke with a greatsword and infinite stamina.
>>246395372
That is what they essentially are, a different breed of human. Probably ones without any of the Dark Soul in them. Hell Manus was probably part of the "lord race" till he was corrupted by the abyss, which formed after the first flame.
>>246395102
Which implies that each time a new chosen undead defeats his predecessor, the requirements are lowered since all he is facing is someone at a fraction of their former glory, who had beaten someone else who was at a fraction of their glory etc.
Eventually, the Abyss is gonna win because the requirements for kindling are lowered each generation.
>>246395415
>Maddened zombie Artorias still somersaults with a greatsword one-handed with a broken arm
Can you imagine fighting that fucker with both of his arms, his body at full strength, and his mind fully-focused?
>>246395507
I thought Manus was the pygmy.
I like to imagine that the large humanoids are the way they are because important religious figures were painted as physically huge to denote their importance in medieval and renaissance art.
Who knows if that was their actual design inspiration, I just think it's a neat little parity.
>>246394823
firekeeper is human though
>>246395106
not hollowing.
Gwyn "hollowed" due to burning in the Oven, it drained him of everything, including his sanity, but has nothing to do with the curse itself.
you see, Gwyn and the other "godly" beings fear the abyss and the fire fading, because unlike us who can maybe shoulder through with the curse, they just outright fucking die.
he didn't fear being "replaced" by humanity, he feared extinction for his people, and he did, as King, what he could, and this is why I have a problem with calling him evil or selfish.
men who burn themselves alive for their subjects cannot be called selfish, its an oxymoron.
>>246395507
>Hell Manus was probably part of the "lord race" till he was corrupted by the abyss
Manus is the pygmy, the pygmy was the first human
>>246395138
only at brightstone
>>246395570
>>246395553
I'd imagine it's all cyclic as fuck and any souls that were fed back into the first flame get spat back out at the start of the next cycle.
>>246395570
well he was the "Chosen" Hero and the greatest warrior of his age, so much so that they basically make fucking Link references to him, and his sword is essentially the fucking Masterword (THREE SEPARATE FUCKING VERSIONS!)
>>246395653
Is he the human or is he the one who gave birth to humans? I don't remember him being referred to as human at all.
>>246395570
artorias only has one arm?
>>246394232
Let the Dark embrace you...
>>246395809
The dark soul IS humanity, he claimed the dark soul from the first flame
>>246395553
Well yes, that's precisely how it goes. Although the state of entropy over the endless pools of souls seems to actually keep itself level, considering it's not just human souls that are burned to stave off the dark, but also the dark itself in certain cases. The Humanity sprites that can be torched in Dark Souls 1 and various items in Dark Souls 2 show that the flames can indeed be grown much more powerful, and with the powerful flames, more souls populate the land.
However it's all essentially staving of the inevitable, considering the dark is an everpresent force, and the fire only serves to bring light to a world surrounded by the dark, both forces growing the potential of one another.
In King's Field 4, you're simply in yet another cycle of this, light being almost completely destroyed by the dark, but the hero standing forward, penetrating the dark, and FINALLY obliterating the source of it flooding into the world, ending the cycle once and for all.
>>246395653
Yeah he took his piece of the flame and began spreading it to other humans. Manus probably is the Pygmy just because of how exceptionally powerful manus is.
>>246395406
Well, yeah I did. That's why I'm annoyed. It's a waste of time to put any thought into your actions.
They made this whole questline with the illusion of depth to basically go "good job. here's a key to a box with some lackluster loot in it, enjoy."
You'd think choosing one or the other would give you some unique loot that you'd have to play through twice to get it all.
>>246395553
Not necessarily. The successor has to gather souls and get more powerful than the incumbent. It could stay relatively even.Feeble Cursed One does seem weaker than the Chosen Undead, though.
>>246395809
Kaathe explains this, Pygmy/Manus spawned humanity.
>>246395810
his left arm is broken, hes essentially fighting you at like 33% strength, both the Abyss and hsi broken arm neuter him.
its the games way of saying "Full Power Artorias would win"
Gwyn and "non-humans" vs Abyss vs Dragons
TRIPLE THREAT CAGE MATCH HELL IN A CELL
>>246395570
Artorias lost to Manus though, and the Chosen Undead beat Manus.
CU>Manus>Prime Artorias
>>246394646
no you get Ornstein or Smough's soul when you kill them second. It's what allows you to build their weapons. I'm starting to think that the first guy you kill is the illusion. That's why the body disappears into nothingness, and why it doesn't drop it's soul. If so, that would mean that canonically, the CU killed O first and grabbed Smough's soul.Most likely it's just B team doing what it does best.
>>246395918
its not a true cycle though.
because, terrifyingly, the "Hero" can fail, and if he fails, the world is over, its only a cycle so long as a hero wins in time.
by the time of King's Field 4, many many nations are simply gone, humanity is on its last vestiges, and the Abyss almost wins completely, and even though you "win" (as temporary as that always is) the damage is done, shit is fucking wrecked hard.
I mean the game points this out to you, in KF4, you COME from a destroyed nation to go to an ANCIENT Destroyed nation, built over top FIVE even more ancient destroyed nations.
its fucking OVER son.
>>246396036
Abyss would win, it basically can't be stopped by anything until the cycle begins anew and the first flame springs back into life
>>246395986
How on Earth died we manage to even touch Manus then, and don't say Artorias weakened him because we both know that us bullshit. Manus was in his element and probably took down Artorias in minutes,
>>246395570
Check out the cover of the game and look really closely. It gets worse.
...Artorias is left handed.
He ninja flips and hits you with a greatsword not only one handed, but WITH HIS WEAK ARM.
>>246396136
It's rock paper scissors. Manus only beat Artorias because of the Dark.
>Never read much of anything about DaS lore
>Reading about Artorias, he seems cool as shit
>Get sad that you will never play a game detailing his life and exploits, hanging out with his badass wolf lifeparter
Feels real, real bad, man.
>>246396147
the first one you kill doesnt drop its soul because the one left uses it to power up into super form and gain their abilites.
Did you even fucking pay attention to the fight at all?
>>246396136
Artorias lost for 2 reasons given to us, that he was a purly "Light" entity means the Abyss is his nature counter, regardless of his protections against it (being one of only 2 beings to truly survive going in and out of it) and 2, because had to save his doggy.
Artorias is still, far and away, besides Gwyn in his prime, the strongest being presented to us in the series, Manus is more a force than a being.
>>246396147
They could've easily designed a new fancy armor. I think they did it on purpose for the lore speculah.
>>246396297
I'd play it.
>>246396227
Maybe it has something to do with his broken pendant, or that the CU also has humanity.
>>246395106
Wait, Havel wasn't human? I thought he was with the whole developing miracles and anti magic stuff? Even the occult club found near his armor suggest he wanted to kill gods.
